PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Shadow1490 on April 05, 2008, 09:27:27 pm
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O.K. that I'm even posting this means I have way too much free time but here goes:
Why is it that to my knowledge no main character(especially the good ones) in any T.V. show or video game I've play/watched uses poison as a main ability? Just why is it that the evil characters are always the ones who debilitate their enemies? It works doesn't it?
Example: Big Guy with sword+poison=Dead body on floor
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Because poison is widely associated with evil. If you're good, you won't use poison. At least, that's what the good guys want you to think.
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Or females.
hmmm.... females = poison = evil?
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*sighs* Yeah but why is poison so widely assciated with evil is the question here. Any ideas?
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Because many poisons don't kill you, but just horribly mutilate you? Because they can cause horrible pain?
Poisons are sneaky, as you can kill someone when they're perfectly at ease and unsuspecting.
Also notice that only few poisons kill you quickly.
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I would also say that killing a person via poison is cowardly, ie you don't have the guts to kill the person in another way. And cowardness is one of the personality attributes that society, at least western society, categorizes as a negative attribute. And we also tend to glorify courage...so if someone can plunge the knife into the heart, it would be considered more courageous.
You could also extend that further by saying that often the good are protrayed as being courageous, and therefore less likely to use poison.
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Counterpoint, the good guys typically never kill. So non killing poisons should be there friend?
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Because many poisons don't kill you, but just horribly mutilate you? Because they can cause horrible pain?
Poisons are sneaky, as you can kill someone when they're perfectly at ease and unsuspecting.
Also notice that only few poisons kill you quickly.
First I don't see how a poison would mutilate you. A poison won't rip off an arm. Besides killing someone when they're at ease would probably be easier their guard is down.
I would also say that killing a person via poison is cowardly, ie you don't have the guts to kill the person in another way. And cowardness is one of the personality attributes that society, at least western society, categorizes as a negative attribute. And we also tend to glorify courage...so if someone can plunge the knife into the heart, it would be considered more courageous.
You could also extend that further by saying that often the good are protrayed as being courageous, and therefore less likely to use poison.
Maybe poisons most don't kill. But they do weaken. And if you're trying to kill someone then that's to your advantage. So is this simply saying that courage means a lack of tactical intelligence? Given that poison is essentially a weakness of most living things it makes sense to use it to give yourself an edge. Besides stabbing someone with a poisoned knife would still be stabbing they would just be weakened even further by poison.
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First I don't see how a poison would mutilate you. A poison won't rip off an arm. Besides killing someone when they're at ease would probably be easier their guard is down.
That's an injury/wound. I'm talking about poison-induced mutilation. Google it if you don't know what it means.
Maybe poisons most don't kill. But they do weaken. And if you're trying to kill someone then that's to your advantage. So is this simply saying that courage means a lack of tactical intelligence? Given that poison is essentially a weakness of most living things it makes sense to use it to give yourself an edge. Besides stabbing someone with a poisoned knife would still be stabbing they would just be weakened even further by poison.
You use a poison if you want to severely hurt someone or if you want to kill them. Not to weaken prior to a sword-fight. It can also be used if you're not sure your attack will be successful, thus to maximize potential damage (think arrows, spears in traps).
Anyway, I think Liadan has an excellent point. I fully agree with it.
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I can't really see much of a difference between stabbing someone and poisoning someone. They're dead either way. Killing someone with a bladed weapon at close range (i.e. dagger/sword/spear) all you're doing is putting yourself at risk. Fighting someone when they're at full strength and not trying to weaken them is rather bad strategically, especially if you know they're stronger than you. Courage is kinda limit anyway, it'll only take you so far. Besides poison is a highly efficient weapon. Depending on the poison the effects are different and it lessens the risk created by going into combat.
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Counterpoint, the good guys typically never kill. So non killing poisons should be there friend?
good guys typically never kill unless it's justified. if they did, they wouldn't be called good guys.
I don't think i need to spell out the rest of the logic, now do i?
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so "good guys" should use poison that incapacitates the "bad guy" so that the bad guy doesn't get hurt, but also it immobilizes them in a way, where they don't endanger others while being captured.
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Give me a break. Good guys use poison all the time. Tear gas is a poison, non-lethal in normal doses but it can still kill you. Ether or chloroform in a rag to incapacitate someone is another poison, maybe, though, todays "heroes" are too politically correct to use such things themselves. Alcohol is another poison used to get information, typically in non-lethal doses. Then there is the use of insidious rhetoric to poison their foes minds and turn them against each other. That is a little different but it goes to another meaning of the word.
It is the insidious quality of poison that makes its use to be considered evil. It can take a long time to kill you and you may never know why you are dying.
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Prolix got it pretty well. I'll make an example. A few years ago, and ex-Russian spy was poisoned in a sushi bar in London by his ex-comrades, who were afraid he was leaking information. (these details might be wrong. These things get warped over time) Anyways, this man suffered for a few days, then died. Actually I think a sword fight would have been better for the spies. It wouldn't have made international news. Well, anyways, poison is cowardly, and can't be guarded agauinsy effectively. You waste away, painfully, rather than a quicker death by weapon. Poison can blind you, remove function, cripple and paralyze. And again, it is too sneaky, too dishonorable, too cowardly... Is that a description of a "good guy?" In other words, the inherent qualities of poison are exactly the ones that society disrespects, therefore tying them toother disrespected parts of society: the "Bad Guys."
Besides, "Good Guys" need to use massive machine guns that shoot flaming grenades, and knives so long that they need to be photoshopped to be put on TV, and he needs to drive tanks into kamikazi'ing helicopters with huge particle explosions in the background, and he needs to put a saddle on a nuke and ride it! And they need muscles! Lots of muscles! You can't have a wimpy "good guy," unless he's the nerdy comic relief side-kick of the protaginistic "Good Guy!"
I hope that clears up anything Prolix left vague.
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Killing with poison is dishonorable, it doesn't require a lot of skill. You can kill someone way out of your league by poisoning their sandwich. :P It's an assassin tool and assassins are against the laws.
Now if you want to talk about the real world. Every self-respecting army invests millions of dollars in biological and chemical warfare research. Poison is used to give death row criminals a 'clean' death or for euthanasia. Of course if you want to use 'good' and 'evil' in the real world you're already way off base. There is no such thing out there :P
Poison is just an ancient term from back in the dark ages when people didn't understand chemistry and biology yet. Right now you are surrounded by poisons that each have their use but they don't go by that name anymore. Alcohol, drugs, most medications, cleaning products, radiation, ... all are 'poisons' and all can be used to kill people. Heck, I can poison you with water if you let me. ;D
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Killing with poison is dishonorable, it doesn't require a lot of skill. You can kill someone way out of your league by poisoning their sandwich. :P It's an assassin tool and assassins are against the laws.
Now if you want to talk about the real world. Every self-respecting army invests millions of dollars in biological and chemical warfare research. Poison is used to give death row criminals a 'clean' death or for euthanasia. Of course if you want to use 'good' and 'evil' in the real world you're already way off base. There is no such thing out there :P
Poison is just an ancient term from back in the dark ages when people didn't understand chemistry and biology yet. Right now you are surrounded by poisons that each have their use but they don't go by that name anymore. Alcohol, drugs, most medications, cleaning products, radiation, ... all are 'poisons' and all can be used to kill people. Heck, I can poison you with water if you let me. ;D
heh, again, dishonourable is often viewed in a negative context, therefore associated with less than model citizens, bringing us back to the whole thing about courage...blahblahblah.
The thing with saying 'good guys use this, bad guys use this' is that it all depends on which side you are on. And somehow, the good guys always seem to be outnumbered and the use of poison is then justified. Notice how whatever means they use, it always ends up being justified somehow (even if it is outrageous and illogical).
that brings up another question...the water part.
is it just a myth, or can you really get 'drunk' from drinking too much water?
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Apparently so. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication)
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all are 'poisons' and all can be used to kill people. Heck, I can poison you with water if you let me. ;D
Apparently so. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication)
I guess Zan can poison someone with water after all.
i wonder if it changes between pure water, filtered water, mineral water and tap water...
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Everything is toxic depending on the quantities you ingest.
I don't get it why heroes don't use poison either. It's probably because people usually enjoy seeing heroes win through glorious fighting and poison isn't glorious or fancyful. I bet we'll have more of that in the future though... People are getting creative nowadays.
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Liadan pure water kills rather quickly, a few glasses and you're practically a goner. Filtered water is similar but a bit slower and tap and mineral water don't really differ much methinks .. there you'll need a whole lot though. The mechanism behind water poisoning is that it can throw your internal ion balance, well .. off-balance. :P
Sangwa is also right.
"All substances are poisons: there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison and a remedy." - Paracelsus (1493-1541)
And I do understand why heroes don't use poison. It's because of the skill factor.
Take this exaggerated example:
Once upon a time there was a good guy. This good guy desperately wanted to become a warrior so he left his cosy farm home at the age of 14 and roamed the world in search of a teacher. A good couple years and teachers later he finally found a good one. The teacher he found was very hard on good guy and made him train day and night. Whether it rained, snowed or the sun scorched the earth, training went on.
Many years later good guy left his teacher and started roaming the lands again. He had a good few skirmishes, which he not only survived but also won. Quickly his name became more known and his fame gave him the ability to join any warlord or king around. Obviously good guy chose a honorable king to follow. In his king's name he quickly became a great hero, fighting for the people and all that. Some people were convinced good guy was invincible in battle and probably descended from the gods themselves.
Then one night bad guy, some lazy bum that wastes his life hanging around poor districts, getting women in his bed and being drunk whenever he has money. Now bad guy happens to stumble across good guy in a very drunk mood and he starts picking a fight. Good guy doesn't want to fight at first but obviously he can't let himself be beaten up completely so he defends himself.
Bad guy notices this, through a fog of alcohol, pulls a tube out, sticks a poisoned blowdart in it and blows it at good guy. Good guy gets hit in his arm and forcefully pushes bad guy aside, being fed up with this brawl. Then he continues down his path until a few days later he's found dead in bed.
The end. :P
Course don't look at me, I'm someone who doesn't like guns for the same reason.
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Killing with poison is dishonorable, it doesn't require a lot of skill.
Poison making is easy?
Sure some are, but a good poison that works at times it should, that's not obviously detected, doesn't taste/smell funny, doesn't hurt when it's in the body ect. ect.
Sure every bum can make those :P
I'm pretty sure you ought to be a reasonable-good/good alchemist to brew such a thing. A good assassin doesn't want his target to scream out loud when he eats his sandwich, neither does she/he wants that her/his target doesn't eat the sandwich because it tastes/smells funny. ect.
There is a lot more to it then 'inject' and 'watch target die' then you think :sorcerer:
Also, I doubt 'good' poisons, a bit like the one described above, are cheap enough to be bought by bums. Ler alone that a bum has conections to one who can make such a poison.
:flowers: :lol:
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Why is it that to my knowledge no main character(especially the good ones) in any T.V. show or video game I've play/watched uses poison as a main ability?
I'm guessing because you haven't been playing Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines :x
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Poison making is easy?
Do note that I said "Killing with poison". I never mentioned making poison. They are two separate actions, which are not necessarily done by the same person.
Also note that I said my example was exaggerated in advance but thank you for pointing it out again. :P
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Well to kill with poison you have to have it, since it's not only hard to make (Good poisons I mean) but also because it's illegal, I think you have to require certain skills to only get then poison. And perhaps some sneaking is required for using the poison.
And who care about dishonorable, when no one knows you've done it? :P
Poison is one of the ultimate weapons, if used and prepared properly. Poison helped my out with Oblivion, Two worlds, with Red-Alert II, C&CI, II and III, Renegade, Warhammer MoC, GW and Diablo II a bit :P It didn't help me with Commandos, I just sucked at it ::)
Movies... There are sooo many movies with poison in it. Batman for one :lol: :flowers:
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Using poison is as easy as well s**t on a stick. If you will pardon the example.
"That's a nasty infection you got there, what happened"
"I dunno, some loser poked me with a stick. Go figure"
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Because many poisons don't kill you, but just horribly mutilate you? Because they can cause horrible pain?
Poisons are sneaky, as you can kill someone when they're perfectly at ease and unsuspecting.
Also notice that only few poisons kill you quickly.
First I don't see how a poison would mutilate you. A poison won't rip off an arm. Besides killing someone when they're at ease would probably be easier their guard is down.
I've got two words for ya: Agent. Orange.
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Using poison is as easy as well s**t on a stick. If you will pardon the example.
"That's a nasty infection you got there, what happened"
"I dunno, some loser poked me with a stick. Go figure"
I think a bigger issue is who is using the poison and the type of poison that is being used.
Any bum can let a dagger go rusty and give you tetnus but it takes a really proficient alchemist or
herbalist to be able to mix poisons so that they become colorless, odorless, and tasteless. It would
also take a great deal of skill (or luck) to be able to handle/deliver the poison to the target without
harming themselves in the process. So it is ultimately up to who the posioner is.
AS for the good/bad issue, poison is poison, I just hope I have the remedy... :D
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As many other things poison is seen as evil and maybe even kind of cheating. A secret thing there makes the deadly or every painful outcome without the person knew it would happen. Thats not nice.. A goodie is a goodie and bad guy is a bad guy.. I think its the way we are taught, through living, movies and so on. It all tells us what is good and what is evil..
Therefor.. No poison.. Poison is not a goodie thing.
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Poison is a weapon and a highly effective one at that. At least in my opinion. My guess at this point is that poison lacks the thrill that big flashy explosions, sword fights and final cinematics in Protoss campaigns give us. Basically poison lacks thrill value. Then again so do most tactically intelligent methods of killing.
Note: Starting conversations like this is the reason so few people I know hang when I start a conversation.