PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dajoji on April 07, 2008, 05:56:04 pm
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Some will blame the new introduction system... but I suspect it's more than that. It's easier to blame it on the changes in the game than to look in ourselves for answers. I hear complains about how the game is not the same and how the good old days were better all the time and it's hard not to agree sometimes. But I wonder, what makes players really stop wanting to RP or need to take a break from it for a while?
Lost friends. People come and go and sometimes it's those who made RP so much fun for us the ones to leave. Seeing one's buddy list all red is depressing. I've experienced that and I understand it can be a big barrier. You know you can't "replace" your old friends with new ones and those plots you had way back sound like will never be surpassed by anything the present has to offer. So why bother, right?
Lost mechs. Mechanics evolve and sometimes that displeases those who are happy with the way things are. One of the things that has been changed a few times along the way, and is more likely to be changed than others in the future, is the dueling system. Some people love it, others hate it and when it is changed it springs a ton of complains. Some people don't want to do anything with PS until it is changed back, not considering that it is only a part of the game and one that is meant to evolve. The correlation between the introduction or modification of mechanics in game and the motivation to RP is direct. I wonder if this is about
Lost skills. Wipes and wipe threa(d/t)s always bring out the "I'm outta here" line. People have dedicated countless hours to training and when they fear their characters might be deleted they don't feel motivated to stay and start over and that means RP was never their priority. They would rather leave than start over.
Lost plots. It is common to see newcomers put together imaginative plots that... well, have nothing to do with PS. Vampires, werewolves, blaster rifles, Jedi powers, etc... and the community is very quick and ruthless when they deal with this issues and that makes the newcomers feel rejected and exposed and they don't wish to stay anymore or try again.
Lost interest in the game. RL makes us do other things, like... living, for instance. We may love PS but when we have to do other things, we gotta log out and do them and that means leaving the game for a couple of days, weeks, months or years. Coming back after that can be challenge. Oftentimes it makes you face all of the above issues so reconnecting with the game is much more difficult. You have to work harder at it to make new friends, train new skills, learn the new mechanics, pick up your old plots, etc and it can make you lose the drive to go in-game anymore and role play.
There may be other reasons why players stop roleplaying but I think these are the most common ones. However, are they valid in terms of role play? They are valid reasons since they do exist and they do affect how players feel about the game but... how much do they really have to do with roleplaying?
Do you stop roleplaying because the community is bad at it?
Do you stop roleplaying because the game has little to do with it?
Do you stop roleplaying because you don't know how to do it and there's nobody to learn from?
Do you stop roleplaying because the settings are boring and unappealing for you?
Or,
do you stop because of the reasons stated in the first part of this post?
I guess the real questions are:
What makes you want to role play?
and
How good at it are you?
If you really love RP, don't let peripheral things get in your way. The game is in development. Be flexible and ready to change as the game evolves and you will enjoy it much more. Complain, suggest, get involved but don't stop roleplaying if you really like it because that way you're only denying yourself some good fun.
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It takes so much time to fill in these annoying question forms...
:P jk ;)
Only times when i take a 'break' is when I have exams, or when I'm on holiday. Later in my life I can for see work and more later perhaps even kids coming in the way ^^. Illness could be a reason, also computer problems, or even Internet problems.
It's all summed up in two letters RL ;)
:lol: :flowers:
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1.) Never wanted to stop rping, never had a reason to. I have taken breaks from planeshift, but never from role playing.
2.) I want to role play because I like the idea of getting in character, it makes a game more fun, also seeing your character develop as a different entity then you is cool, I also have always been a fan of stories and lore, in all mmorpgs, but the problem has always been that no one rps with the lore, except planeshift.
3.) I have always looked at myself as a good role player.
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I still roleplay when I am in game, though the latter has become a rarity due to a lack of the first. Currently, roleplay mostly involves only the same people, and that gets boring. Furthermore, as my characters are nothing special, they don't involve in the grand scale roleplays, good vs evil etc. I would like more every day roleplays, though these are lacking. People are not interested in buying roleplayed glass wares, neither chopping imaginary wood. Some people do buy them, but after a while it's just a feeling of duty that gets them to help.
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I never stopped roleplaying and I will never stop roleplaying unless I stop playing.
Like I said in the other thread, however, the introduction system does make roleplaying a lot less interesting. If it makes it less interesting for me, I can imagine it can easily make people stop (role)playing completely. Now you might not want to hear this but that is how it is. Also this doesn't mean we should get rid of the introduction system but I do think we should disable it until a better, less confusing system is in place. Essential here is that you can make a distinction between different 'strangers' in main chat. Whether it's done by giving different people different text colors, self-chosen labels like: old dwarf or redhaired dwarfette .. or whatever other idea you can come up with, doesn't matter but the confusion needs to be cleared up.
Now back on the actual topic .. I can answer no to every single one except the last two questions.
I want to roleplay because I like roleplaying, simple as that. How good I'm at it, I'm not going to answer myself. People have different ideas of how to roleplay, because of that some people will think my roleplaying sucks because it's way too realistic and hence boring .. others might think I'm good. Doesn't matter as long as I like what I do and can find people who like similar things.
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In three years most RPs I have been in have degenerated into [arguments] because there is no system of mechanics that supports this-or-that specific roleplay action(s), and that elements of roleplay that are supported are ignored by certain roleplayers who will not follow the mechanics of the system no matter how well done they are. And sometimes it is just nit-picking one another. RP many times is just not fun, anymore so than trying to do it seriously on IRC. Everybody seems to know what "Roleplay" means, but the practical implementation of it is interpreted differently by everyone. The function of administering mechanics to RP was the function of the table-top GM, and GMs in Planeshift are not even close to that function. Not to mention, most want to create a role that they play, rather than playing the role they "rolled". The introduction system makes the game feel even more unfriendly IMHO.
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When a stranger you talk to speak OOC
and doesn't think about stopping or trying to stay IC
Lack of immersity and consistence
When the setting isn't covering all aspects of a given place, encounter or whatelse. When the game mehanics aren't supporting it and lack of elements vital for intuitive RPing within the game mehanics.
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I have stated in another post that it is possible to play the game entirely without RP. That, however, becomes very boring. RP is a way to get a lot more enjoyment out of the game.
I agree that it is largely the people that present the RP opportunities. I have seen very few RP conversation since I started playing (1-2 weeks before 0.4), but have participated in all that would have me. The NPCs do not really offer any RP opportunities, especially since they have... how shall i say... limited vocabulary?
The introduction system has a lot to do with the limited interaction with other players right now. I cannot keep track of the 2-10 different "Someone"'s that are trying to talk to me. This is a common complaint, and one that needs to be addressed fairly quickly. Possible fix is to add a field to the description for each character that will be used in place of "Someone". It would also be nice if you could get introduced, automatically, to people you have had lengthy conversations with, or the others in your guild. These last two are realistic scenarios in real life. I am going to recognize someone i was talking to for 30 minutes if i see them again, or if i work with them in the same office.
I think that because of the current implementation of the introduction system there is a lot less communication using the "main" tab and a LOT more going on in tells, guild, and group chat where you will actually see peoples names. This is changing the environment a lot and making it look like RP is dead when it isn't.
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Roleplaying dead? I do feel Roleplaying has had a hit. Nothing serious at the moment, but I do wonder if it might not become serious if that introductionsystem remains as it is for to long a time.
I mean if people who were in favor of the idea are now saying it's annoying in the present form and often even add it might actually hinder RP instead of adding to it you know something is wrong.
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Now I can't resist to add to the intro-bashing :P
Just one example amoung others: I was a friend of some small 'rp's at the mine - it was actually even a good place because often there were one or two rpers there. But when I mine now (yes I do sometimes) I ignore the main tab. And when I peek in I see only lots of sitting/standing/"Thanks" or dozens of lines of Someones. *feels urgent need to click on another tab again*
Apart from that:
Yes, friends leaving make my rp diminish
As does my now much more limited time for being ingame
Sen
*edit* Hmmm... I should have read the Roleplaying decreased thread before....
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This is a great thread Dajoji.
To answer the questions then in my opinion of course:
Lost friends: Yes many people I played with are gone, but many are still here. I find it disturbing that the ones I learned to role play from are gone. I miss the days when I came in game and people would send me tells and then we would gather to role play.
Lost mechs. If this includes the ‘Introduction System’ then the answer has to be yes. I have met many people and I doubt I will met them again without knowing who there are by name. I know that is not right, but it is true.
Lost skills. This is not a factor to my role play, so therefore is does not matter.
Lost plots. Well can I apply this to making my character who she is today? I have worked hard to make her known for who she is. Building a character is important I believe.
Lost interest in the game. Well standing around and listening to others role play and being able to join in is fun. So for me to see so many standing around not chatting away about something makes the game less interesting. So many had wonderful stories to tell and all I had to do was ask if I could listen and before I knew it I was part of a great role play. It does not happen anymore that I can see.
For a role player it is easy to lose interest when they isn’t any role play going on.
Do you stop role playing because the community is bad at it? With patience anyone can learn to role play. So this is no excuse.
Do you stop role playing because the game has little to do with it? The game might be moving in a different direction where role play is no longer important, or not as much as it was.
Do you stop role playing because you don't know how to do it and there's nobody to learn from? There are some really good role players in game. If people want to learn there is still an opportunity. These days it might be hard to find them, but they are there.
Do you stop role playing because the settings are boring and unappealing for you? This is a great game and the settings are what make the role play work.
Now people have said to me go back in game and make things happen, start making new friends, make new role plays and they are correct. I have to consider if it is the fact I start to make new friends and after a week they are gone or it seems to me that the new people I meet seem disinterested that makes me not want to play as much as before.
As I said before, maybe the game is going in a different direction away from role play.
Please go ahead and tell me I am wrong, it is ok.
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Although being your character is fairly easy, what isn't is knowing what other people will do. Nothing like telling them who to be and all such, of course. OOC is the thing.
I haven't played an RP type game before, figured to give it a shot with this one. So, I'm not the best person, because I haven't had the experience. It's really disheartening, however, when you are trying to get things straight (as you're not an RP MASTARZ, or you don't have the settings memorized and on little notecards), and people start telling you 'you suck' and calling the RP over because it's boring. Thanks, I really needed that. If you didn't like it so much, find a reason to leave and do it, or give me tips on how not to 'suck.' That's like a simple Improv game people play where you have to find a reason to leave (another reason I like playing a character; I like acting).
The first event I got into was fun; I wanted to learn how to be better, do it more often. But the last 'random' RP event dealios I got into ended up with people coming in to check it out, telling the people involved we suck, and walking off. It's more fun to RP a steel refiner doing their daily routine than getting criticized about something you don't know how to really deal with, or are trying to get used to.
That's the biggest turn-off to RP events (but not playing a character, I like that) for me; people coming in and interrupting things OOC, and criticizing the players for their RP beginner-ness.
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Sorry for some offtopic words, but Ravenguard, you shouldnt get discouraged by that. In fact I am quite a bit shocked to read that. People doing that probably are some immature 12yo kids who wont be around for long anyways - at least I do hope so. You appear to be a guy interested in the game for what its meant to be, and should continue for, say, 2 more weeks, before you can approach them and show them who sucks;)
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Ravenguard you could learn a lot from Velh. He is one of the best along with Noriin and Izzabella. Don't give up. We need people like you.
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Questions first:
Do you stop roleplaying because the community is bad at it? Not at all. We have a great community for RP.
Do you stop roleplaying because the game has little to do with it? PS is pure RP, at least to me.
Do you stop roleplaying because you don't know how to do it and there's nobody to learn from? True, not many large RPs happen.
Do you stop roleplaying because the settings are boring and unappealing for you? The intro system can be annoying at times, but it is only one of the several overlying reasons.
do you stop because of the reasons stated in the first part of this post? Yes. I think one of the major reasons is the negativity towards new ideas for RP. Eventiually, you can't do the same RPs over and over again. Branch out. Give that new guy with the crazy idea a chance. IF the RP is just too radical, don't just tell him off, encourage him and give him tips and pointers. And please, please don't point them to a two-year old sticky.
That's all i got. (really wish we had this one-> :cookie:)
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What makes me not want to RP?
1. /shout THIS EVENT SUCKS/THIS IS WHY I NEVER DO GM EVENTS/I AM LEAVING!
2. Over the top drama. *casts arm to the sky*
3. Thinking about how you have no power to actually change anything (as your character).
4. Character Creation.
5. Fair for all (anyone can do/be anything)
6. Godmoders.
7. Someone still freaking saying my character's name like they know him despite the new intro system, and doing it just to prove they can get around the system and be a jerk.
8. Lack of 'bad' things to do as a nasty character.
9. Lack of consequences for a nasty character.
10. The training system, and trying to use it.
None of these actually make me stop. If you go looking for roleplaying, you will not find it. Roleplay is where your character is.
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1. /shout THIS EVENT SUCKS/THIS IS WHY I NEVER DO GM EVENTS/I AM LEAVING!
I completely agree. Show some class, people. Either play along or shut up.
4. Character Creation.
Again, i agree. The original char creation is fine, and the tutorial is great for new players, but there should be (i know this is being discussed and worked on) an option to skip, else it makes creating chars for RP tedious.
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I also think the training system gets in the way of role playing. It seems entirely too large. This may be a radical idea but to get it out of the way of role play skill levels should be greatly reduced say by a factor of 20 and the jumps between level abilities made to match. Then there ought to be several skill related quests that must be done to advance to the next level with the last requirement being time spent off-line which is considered to be practicing. This could be something simple like one week per level, one week to go to level two, two weeks to go to level three, etc. You should only be able to train one level at a time and time in game with that character not counting towards its training. If weeks seem too long make it days with each level double the days of the last.
This way time spent in game would have little to do with training so people would have more incentive to RP. There would still be people grinding for money but for me at least it is very unsatisfying to do when progression is not happening. Even when it is happening it is not all that and definitely no pie a la mode. It would, however allow people who hate to level and only want to role play to role play constantly with one low level schmo while their advanced characters gradually come into their powers. Once their characters have the levels they want all they have to do is forgo the quests for the next level and they will stop advancing.
I do not suppose such an idea will be adopted but it is something to think about.
So to tie it all in with the thread topic, I role play all the time except when I am talking OOC with someone. Most of the time is spent trying to better myself and learn whatever I can. This means I am usually preoccupied with the grind of one sort or another and have little time for melodrama and pointless chit-chat. I refuse to put on airs or claim abilities I have not earned and mostly ignore those who do. Those are a few of the things that make me not want to role play and the forgoing is something that I think would help. Now that you asked.
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Again, i agree. The original char creation is fine, and the tutorial is great for new players, but there should be (i know this is being discussed and worked on) an option to skip, else it makes creating chars for RP tedious.
Only the first character on an account has to go through the tutorial. If you are an existing player and needed to make a secondary account for whatever reason - the tutorial only has to be done once on that account as well...and it shouldn't take you long as you are familiar with the game.
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Roleplying is an important part for me. Not the only reason I play PS, but I think the most important. I don't have much experience with other MMORPGs, mainly because I watched friends playing them and noted that they are mostly about who kills most monsters in a short time and who uses the most mysterious language (l33t) ;). So I was very happy when I stumbled over PS
But now to the reasons want keeps me off from RP sometimes.
- RL - my daughter, my girlfriend.... :D
- my mood - Sometimes I just want to spend a hour or so with relaxing. Just running around in a virtual world, hitting some monsters on the head and not much thinking. And sometimes I'm just not in the mood to talk a lot and think how my character would act in a specific situation. Then I normally just do some quests.
- on rare occasions, the reactions / OOC chatting of other players - I think I can tolerate a lot from other players, giving them hints about using brackets of /tells for OOC talking or trying to explain what godmodding is and why it is bad. But at some point it's too much for me. But that happend only a few times since I played.
- the character I play - I think this is not really a valid point, because I think I RP in those moment, but other players my think so. If I play a good character for example and someone wants me to help him kill someone, most of the time the character will leave with just a few words. Or a bad character of mine, would surely not stay in the tarvern if a lot of other players enter and boast about how the taken down a thief lately
- helping other players - When a new player I help before asks me in a /tell something, I maybe leave to help him
But finally I want to say that I could not imagine playing PS without roleplaying. The most funny and thrilling situations only occur during roleplaying. And you never know what happens next...When you asked me some times ago, I would never had expected seeing Aiwendil dancing for some men ;D.
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1) People who can't wrap their head around RP and RP at least semi-properly. I'm willing to work with different RP styles and the likes, but those who have no capacity to RP have no place in my mind...:S
2) Training is only a minor disruption to me...but not being able to train is a much larger one. Just what is going on with NPCClient? :P
3) Inflation, inflation, inflation...it seems to occur every time a new lode of precious metal is discovered.
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3) Inflation, inflation, inflation...it seems to occur every time a new lode of precious metal is discovered.
Why is trias losing its value making you want to stop roleplaying?
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3) Inflation, inflation, inflation...it seems to occur every time a new lode of precious metal is discovered.
Why is trias losing its value making you want to stop roleplaying?
I think Kaerli means what Donari and I have said, that the mines cause a big distraction from doing anything besides hoarding.
I don't rp if I can't get anyone else involved in a small random one. It's hard when my audience is a bunch of faceless silent miners sitting and standing like some weird Tae Bo video.
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Yeah, when balance all goes to hell and a peasant could buy a pterosaur after 1 day of digging.
Although this may be over one day as the game evolve, the inflation is a dangerous occurrence. Its easy to cause it, harder to withdrawl. We shall see.
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Do you stop roleplaying because the community is bad at it?
Rarely. Community is mostly fine, but there's a lot of people who don't really want to be a part of it, and separate themselves with n00bishnezz.
Do you stop roleplaying because the game has little to do with it?
I don't actually stop roleplaying due to this, but it seems that the game does have little to do with it. The powerlevellers and anti-RPers have more effect on the economy, and it's like pure RPers can't make any effect on anything.
Do you stop roleplaying because you don't know how to do it and there's nobody to learn from?
No...
Do you stop roleplaying because the settings are boring and unappealing for you?
No.
Or,
do you stop because of the reasons stated in the first part of this post?
No and yes. Real life comes first. Main reason why I don't like RPing as much as I used to is the introduction system.
I guess the real questions are:
What makes you want to role play?
I just want a game to play. Keeps me busy when I have nothing to do, and roleplay is fun. But it's hard to roleplay when you've got all these stupid limits to what you can do (mechanics and this new intro system). My main character usually doesn't exchange names with other people, so the introduction system is what I consider a limit. I know whoever though it up was trying to fix that silly little problem where a noob would call someone he doesn't know by name (which never did happen too often), but, seriously... This is like nuking an ant hill; it's overkill. And guess what, the problem's still there! I still got randoms--even more than before--coming up to my character and saying, "Hello, <name>." It's creating more problems than there were before.
and
How good at it are you?
I think I suck. :P True, though.
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Again, i agree. The original char creation is fine, and the tutorial is great for new players, but there should be (i know this is being discussed and worked on) an option to skip, else it makes creating chars for RP tedious.
Only the first character on an account has to go through the tutorial. If you are an existing player and needed to make a secondary account for whatever reason - the tutorial only has to be done once on that account as well...and it shouldn't take you long as you are familiar with the game.
really? wow, that isn't so for me... it might be because i deleted my first character when i made my second (i've only made two chars).
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really? wow, that isn't so for me... it might be because i deleted my first character when i made my second (i've only made two chars).
if you delete your first the server cant tell that any of your chars have made it though the tutorial, the server is not that smart just yet.
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What makes me not want to RP?
1. /shout THIS EVENT SUCKS/THIS IS WHY I NEVER DO GM EVENTS/I AM LEAVING!
2. Over the top drama. *casts arm to the sky*
3. Thinking about how you have no power to actually change anything (as your character).
4. Character Creation.
5. Fair for all (anyone can do/be anything)
6. Godmoders.
7. Someone still freaking saying my character's name like they know him despite the new intro system, and doing it just to prove they can get around the system and be a jerk.
8. Lack of 'bad' things to do as a nasty character.
9. Lack of consequences for a nasty character.
10. The training system, and trying to use it.
No point in making a list when Under the moon has done it for me already. :P Seriously though, each one of these points I agree with and stand by. These (what is stated above) are reasons that would affect my RP. Not necessarily stop it but definitely affect my mood and where I take my character that day. Or how I would react to people in game.
I never try to stop roleplaying unless it is called for. That is what attracted me to this game. The unique community and the passion for roleplay.
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Nvm not a fight worth fighting.
Eat My Shorts.
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Blaming lack of information about every single detail in PS's world to discourage roleplaying I seriously cant agree on at all. Have a look at the libraries and the NPCs all over, compare how much stuff gets added frequently.. We meanwhile have a book describing fauna and areas and whatnot - while I have no doubt loads of stuff will come within short before I wont have read everything about the "current stuff", the current information provides SOO much options to play with. After all, only few I approached included deep information into their roleplay - update your knowledge and surprise us players with the stuff already implemented (knowledge-wise)=P
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Once i figured out how to RP, i couldnt stop, its addictive ;) Anyways, my character got into some pretty crazy plots and all of it was fun, and i pretty much couldnt see anything bad about any of it. Eventually however, i started to encounter a few things that eventually pretty much caused me to lose interest. I tend to try to stay on good terms with just about everyone, and i believe that IC is IC and just that, which incidentally leads me to my first point:
People taking IC OOC: This REALLY annoys me. Just because someone may play a bad character does not mean they are a bad person, etc...its so annoying to receive threats OOC, about an IC event or encounter. It kind of blurrs those lines and makes it difficult to continue the RP.
People criticizing others RP in brackets: Im guilty of this, once in awhile but I try to usually be constructive: for example if someone is standing next to me valiantly fighting off a clacker with his trusty lightsabre, i might remind him or her in a tell that thats a -bit- over the top. However, i have seen people be harassed to no end by extremely rude comments made in brackets. I think that everyone can always learn more, even those that wander around as self-proclaimed RP-Masters.
Turning on or off RP: I can understand sometimes wanting to just mindlessly slaughter mobs, or mine for awhile, instead of getting involved in some complex plot, but if someone greets your character, why not take two seconds and greet them back IC? THe other day my character went to the mine, she tried and tried to strike up a conversation, but it was like being among ghosts. Everyone just stood there and mined and not one person made a comment, even when she started singing about how the fellow in front of her direly needed a bath. Other times i have been in the tavern and someone will make a comment like "[My character is really dead, but im just here]". How does that make any sense? Now everyone else that may speak to that character is speaking to someone that is technically not there... o.O
I dont want to sound like im complaining, but those are just the major things that came to mind when i read this thread. After awhile, a lot of these things became more and more prevalent and it just became annoying to try to RP. I tried making new characters and starting more 'everyday' RPs, for example: Pohim the little shoeshine..but it just became harder and harder to find people to RP with. Now it seems like barely anyone will at all
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Turning on or off RP: I can understand sometimes wanting to just mindlessly slaughter mobs, or mine for awhile, instead of getting involved in some complex plot, but if someone greets your character, why not take two seconds and greet them back IC? THe other day my character went to the mine, she tried and tried to strike up a conversation, but it was like being among ghosts. Everyone just stood there and mined and not one person made a comment, even when she started singing about how the fellow in front of her direly needed a bath. Other times i have been in the tavern and someone will make a comment like "[My character is really dead, but im just here]". How does that make any sense? Now everyone else that may speak to that character is speaking to someone that is technically not there... o.O
This is how I REALLY got into Roleplaying, by singing at the mines with Anumesa. Sure, when you're mining you usually focus on the system tab, but by the time you finish typing out a line, that mining session should have finished and you can move or try again. Why can't more people do that?
What makes me not want to roleplay now has mostly already been said here, but I'll mention some anyway
When events degrade to mostly OOC brackets and shouts
Again, the lack of evil things to do that people might go along with, at least partly. I don't usually care about the outcome, and we usually plan to lose, so its discouraging when people don't acknowledge you(rather just me).
How hard it is to recognize people I've talked to before but haven't asked their name, but I'm not going to say too much more about this.
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People taking IC OOC: This REALLY annoys me. Just because someone may play a bad character does not mean they are a bad person, etc...its so annoying to receive threats OOC, about an IC event or encounter. It kind of blurrs those lines and makes it difficult to continue the RP.
I feel exactly the same way (I must admit I too have lost my temper when I started playing PS when many things were unfamiliar and ppl killed me here and there. never like this tho--->). Last one I recieved and which p**sed me off somewhat was from player Cayoke saying he works for the PlaneShift team and will have my account banned or at least get me a warning. He threw out some devs names and said he is E-mailing 'his supervisor'. As unlikely it seems that the PS team would hire a f***** such as him in the first place, it does put my and others RP on hold as atleast I have no contacts to any GMs and such to ask what should be done. (no GMs were online when this happened but I reported it)
Newer players will seize their RP almost entirely for the fear that their trained and personalised chars will be deleted if they say something bad to a wrong person (ICly).
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Impersonating a Dev or GM is bannable. Report the person and file a petition. You can also go to the IRC channel #planeshift on freenode and contact GMs or Devs dirrectly who are not ingame.
I have noticed that a great many of the "What makes...?" answers have to do with other players, and not features of the game at all.
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The player in question is someone I know as a prospect - I've already given "Coyoke" a talk about his place in the Scheme of Things, so I'd rather not have the situation escalate unless another episode comes up. Hopefully there will be no need.
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I have noticed that a great many of the "What makes...?" answers have to do with other players, and not features of the game at all.
I think there are a few reasons for this one. A lot of people will admit that the constant mining and introduction system will damage them, and many posts have ignored this to avoid redundancy, I think.
As for other features, such as statue-like guards, death, and the dueling system, people work their rp's as well as they can. I've seen brilliant attempts at pretending that the guards could attack them, and I've seen duels in front of the same guards.
The settings and books could be read more, like Velh said, and they do improve rps a lot. I've seen rps that completely fit into the scheme of things, and raining flaming ulbers that destroy all of Hydlaa rps.
From my experience, I can make up an rp that fits in with the features of the game, but it often ends in utter failure because of the introductions, the silent miners, and the fact that players often choose money over a rewardless rp.
I guess to sum it all up: incomplete features can be worked around; players cannot be.
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People criticizing others RP in brackets
@ Everyone: :-\ This truly amazes me when people do this. It should be an absolute no no to put into brackets criticism of someone else's RP. That is just out right disrespectful. It should always be done in /tell or /group or some where that isn't in the public eye. To be little someone like that is really mean I think.
Ask yourself this ... What right do other players have to tell other players how to RP? Everyone has a different perspective as to how RP should go. (Even if you have played the game for years it still doesn't make you an expert! It just means you have had more experience with the game.) To tell a RPer that they are over the top or they don't know what their doing is completely rude in my humble opinion. To suggest a few ideas would be fine. This HAS to be handled very carefully though (This is what I learned from Gming). You must chose your words carefully and word them in a respectful manner to help the player better understand where you are coming from. It also helps them understand that your only trying to help, and not be some bossy, pushy player who thinks their the greatest RPer ever. Remember there are people of different ages, countries, and back grounds in this game. SO what you think might not be offensive maybe to them.
I have had new players and old tell me how to RP. Some I have taken offense to and some I didn't. It was the way they approached me that determined how I took the advice, and most importantly what I did with it. Keep that in mind when your giving advice to players.
[edited] Spelling errors
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the reason for me: (to answer the topics question)
lack of time.
I'm a bit busy IRL, so I can't put aside an hour or two every day/ every other day to keep up with any real RP going on. When I do log in, it's to chat here and there for a few moments, go off to explore some area I haven't been to in awhile, maybe work on solving a quest or two, play around with some of the new features being released, etc. And that's all I have time for really. If I did get involved with and deep RP event or whatever, I'd be involved one night, be logged out for a month, and come back to find it all resolved, and then where would my char be? So it's better for me to stay out of any of the 'bigger' things and stick to the occasion, spur of the moment while I'm running from here to there' type stuff. :)
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I really enjoy RP but I think people who get into it should, rather than improve their charcters life, look at their own. If you really want to become this other "person" so bad something must be amiss in your real life. I am a fan of the game. I enjoy creating fiction about my character, giving him personality and such, but their is andalways has been, a point where you need to seperate yourself from the character.
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Usually one of two(or three) things keeps me out of RPing.
1. The server is down.
2. There's nothing going on.(That I can find anyway.)
3. My character isn't the type to interfere in other people's troubles. (especially when not being paid to do so.)
4. I've got something to do IRL
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I dropped the question and left it alone for a couple of days for the community to respond. Now that I've read the replies and reflected upon them I can explain why I started this thread and what I have learned from it.
First of all, roleplay is not dying. It is not ruined. Not by the few disruptive players who don't get the purpose of the game and are in a path that eventually will get them banned. Not by the current mechanics. Not by player leaving because of RL and other reasons. If it were truly ruined, we wouldn't be here. You wouldn't be here. But we are. And we stay because we haven't given up on PS. We stay because we still believe this project is unique and rich and that along the way, a solution for these issues will be found.
What PlaneShift is all about is RP. The settings, the community, the future plans are all aimed at it. It is unfair to say that PS is drifting away from it just because we're having a hard time dealing with new and buggy mechanics or because the game does not exclude those who are not interested in RP.
The purpose of this thread was to put in evidence that we do not have to stop roleplaying and that the things that may get in our way are not really part of the game's development plan. But what can we do about them?
- There are several ways to communicate with the Devs and GMs: forums, bugtracker, IRC, tells, petitions, reports, etc. Among them, some topics are of particular interest like those that about new systems (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=31728.0), development projects (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30765.0), and content (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30659.0), for example. They allow us to voice our opinion and suggest solutions and improvements that are taken into account, so by being active and constructive we can really help the game move forward.
- Inappropriate player behavior is dealt with by Game Masters but it all starts with the players. There are attitudes we can avoid that have been mentioned in this thread. We can stop policing others' RP, for starters. We can be more tolerant with those who are still learning about the game and RP and allow them to make a few mistakes here and there. We can make suggestions and point out possible problems with other players' plots but that should always be done respectfully and constructively. We have no right to disregard or undermine others. We have seen that this can drive good players away from RP and away from PS and this affects how we are as a community. You don't have to like or get along with everybody in-game but if you don't, just respect each other's spaces. Ignore each other and don't look for confrontation. That is immature and will only cause more complications. If their behavior becomes disruptive, contact a GM and let us handle it.
- If you have the skills or experience to deal with bugs, OS specific problems and other technical issues, help out in the support forums and bugtracker.
- If you think you have the necessary skills to offer more in-depth help, apply for the different PS teams: developers, game masters, testers, and moderators. We are always looking for prospects.
- Share your experience. See if you can add anything to our guides and tutorials (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?board=53.0) section as well as help newcomers (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?board=1.0). Many forum users only check a few sections, ignoring the support and newbie forums.
- Don't give up roleplaying. Be patient, take your time, do it your way, don't take it too seriously but don't let things make you stop.
We can think this problem is solved by pointing at someone in the team and say "fix it!" but the bottom line is: Roleplay is not about game mechanics. It is about the community. To improve roleplay we must improve as a community. Do your part and RP will always be around.
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We can think this problem is solved by pointing at someone in the team and say "fix it!" but the bottom line is: Roleplay is not about game mechanics. It is about the community. To improve roleplay we must improve as a community. Do your part and RP will always be around.
One thing, if roleplaying was not about game mechanics, then Planeshift wouldn't have game mechanics. Game mechanics have impact on the RPing and these can be designed to support it, or support Gamers more. That's pretty much it.
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You are all gamers. Why make that distinction? Our goal is to blur the line so much that when you are in PlaneShift, you find yourself roleplaying no matter what you do :)
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Coz there are gamers who RP and gamers who don't ;P
So, RPimg gamers and gamers ;P
Hope my previous post make more sense now.
And yea, go for the blurring! Though it is going to be hard and complicated, i like it.
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It seems to me all games, and life in general, require you to play a role, or many roles, of one kind or another. An RPG merely opens up the kinds of roles you can play within the rules. Doom is not an RPG but you play the role of a relentless demon hunter. Monopoly is not an RPG but you play the role of a rabid property developer. This continuous navel gazing that is the quest for role play seems completely pointless to me. People will always choose what role they will play, either actively or by default, and some will always choose "silly git." Those of you dedicated to the "passion play" focus of this game need to get on with it and quietly recruit promising newcomers, ignoring the rest. All this blather does little other than reinforce the clique boundaries.
I am not questioning the intent of this kind of thread, just its effectiveness. Talking amongst yourselves rarely affects those who do not share your concerns as they are outside the conversation.
I suppose I should shut up as my opinions are abundantly expressed, but I do like the sight of my own text! :)
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We can think this problem is solved by pointing at someone in the team and say "fix it!" but the bottom line is: Roleplay is not about game mechanics. It is about the community. To improve roleplay we must improve as a community. Do your part and RP will always be around.
One thing, if roleplaying was not about game mechanics, then Planeshift wouldn't have game mechanics. Game mechanics have impact on the RPing and these can be designed to support it, or support Gamers more. That's pretty much it.
I agree that mechanics have an impact on RP and that they should be designed to support it and that's the plan. Bugs and afterthoughts will be dealt with in the process. However, RP does not depend on mechanics. It depends on interaction. You can RP in a chatroom with nothing more than instant messages (not quite as exciting but it's possible) but you can't roleplay alone. A strong and welcoming community is the fundamental for good RP.
So if you think RP is diminishing don't look to the game mechanics for answer only. Look at what you do as well. It might be more relevant than you think.
(...)I am not questioning the intent of this kind of thread, just its effectiveness. Talking amongst yourselves rarely affects those who do not share your concerns as they are outside the conversation.(...)
That is why part of our effort as a community should be to promote our communication channels. Bring players to the forums. Direct them to our IRC channels or our bugtracker. We will all benefit from it.
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It depends on interaction.
A strong and welcoming community is the fundamental for good RP.
Read what you just said and look how introductions have affected this. Both interaction is less becuase of it and the confusion for the new players is only more seeing new people will be ignored even faster being the 100th someone.
Do mechanics make roleplaying? No. Can mechanics hurt roleplaying? Ofcourse, becuase as you said yourself the basic thing you need is the chatwindow, the rest is all "filler", but it is infact the chatwindow that is being changed and communication that is being hampered.
Am I looking at the mechanics only? No, ofcourse there are other things that are hurdles for roleplaying aswell. I think I have pointed such hurdles out where I felt they were in earlier posts and there have been plenty of posts about those subjexts.
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I think the point to this whole thread (correct me if I am wrong Dajoji) is that it is the community who makes the RP (and also to figure out why the community feels that RP has died). If the community isn't doing it's part in that of course the game will feel empty of RP. Sure the visual and mechanics of the game helps make it fun, and gives us something to RP with but over all Dojoji is right, it takes ....
A strong and welcoming community is the fundamental for good RP.
So if people keep saying that RP in PlaneShift is dieing, then that kind of reflects on us as a community and we need to do something about it. Dajoji has posted a ton of links that helps the community get things on a role or fixed or heard. We should use these tools more often and take matters into our own hands as a community instead of relying on the games visual, mechanics and Devs/GM's to fill in the blank spots. (Not saying it is ok to change settings though :/) If everyone did a little roleplaying we wouldn't be hearing that RP was dieing. :)
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You are right. Flaws and bugs can affect interaction but features need to be tested for the game to progress. The introduction system is bound to be adjusted. The Devs wouldn't make a poll about it if they were not going to take into consideration the players' opinions. Nobody has said the system will stay as is afaik.
The process can be difficult but the damage is not irreparable if we focus on strengthening the community while an effective solution is figured out. After all, if the introduction system is not the only thing affecting RP and we know it is being looked at, why can't we address other things we're not doing much about yet? The new introduction system is merely an isolated incident and it will eventually pass but if we neglect to grow as a community we will drag that weight all along.
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There is the accessability problem.
Problems with mouse targetting, because clicking an object, you can be sure you click the right spot. You waste time because of that and that may be a reason why people read descriptions of others rarely.
There are loads of objects in the world with custom descriptions, to increase out knowledge about setting and enchant out RPing experience. But so what there are loads of them, you never know that some of the objects you look at can be clicked because nothing indicate that.
The context menu appear with too big delay. Waiting for an action after you choose an option from it takes another while. It is discouraging.
The NPCs know a lot, You could do their quests in teams, with someone else, you have just met - who happened to talk with the NPC when you are. But he say, out of nothing, "type give me quest", while you would like to actually RP all whe way from the start to the end. Is the NPC dialog in current form really that much RP encouraging?
This are all game mechanics.
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Lol when we tried to do quests with triggers other than "give me quest" this is what happens to players.
(http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/epic-failure.jpg)
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Who said, your job is easy? ;P
I would render the questing, NPC system to be the toughtst of everything developed in planeshift, because you have to script so many possiblities.
IMO it is incredibly hard to create computer version of something what should answer like thinking human.
I can't say it is your fault that the player reacted the way he did, but he did it, so I'm writing about. The game mehanics failed to show him the right RP beaviour and the RP community was also not enough so he would try RPing that with me.
But please don't ask me what would i do, because my major idea for improvement to the NPC system was rejected (in fact idea of someone smarter than me in this field) so I gave up and focused on what i do best - art.
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me puts his asbestos underwear on, trying to answer the question
"Why do I not want to RP?"
Well in a nutshell, I am afraid the simple answer is: The environment is not
fit for roleplay (please read the whole blurp, get yourself a banana split
and allow enough time to pass to cool down before hitting "reply"). The
problem is not, that roleplay is not encouraged, but rather that it is
encouraged to a point, where it has the opposite effect of being
discouraged.
It starts with character generation, which in my opinion is currently broken
by design. If you choose the custom way (and most people do) and build a
character, that is not physically strong, you'll literally be getting
nowhere.
However if you put emphasizes on strength and endurance to not spend most of
your gametime resting, you'll likely end up with a background, that does not
fit the role you'd like to play. Even if it does, you quickly realize, that
the generated "backgroundstory" is exactly that: Generated. A stereotype
without uniqueness and personality. In other words: A character without
character. Hard to follow /tip "Rememeber: Unique characters make the game
fun" with that.
In my opinion (sorry for derailing into gamedesign here),
charactergeneration should be a three step process:
1. Select race
2. Select general type
3. Select subtype
Your general type would be the generic choice of what your character would
preferably be (e.g. figther, mage, crafter, thief, merchant) and generally
affect you stats. Your subtype would be the role you actually like to play
(e.g. fighter/knight, fighter/mercenary, fighter/hunter, crafter/smith,
crafter/alchemist, mage/battlemage, mage/summoner, ... you gett the idea)
and affect the skills you get. This system allows novice players to create a
character fast, without risking to come up with something unplayable (e.g.
the basis for a powerfull mage, that is so weak, it cannot cross hydlaa
without resting). It does not force an unloved background on anyone (yes, I
know, most people will delete their characterdescription anyway to replace
it with something fitting their style better. But whats the point of wasting
time on implementing a backgroundsystem if nobody cares for the result?).
The next issue I have is with the tutorial system. Not, that I generally
consider it a bad thing (quite contrary), the problem is more, that it gives
the novice player the impression, that roleplay is of vital importance and
dropping OOC is a crime punishable by death. The cautious player will
therefore choose to avoid getting into trouble by simply not interacting with
other people at all. Keep in mind: Not everyone new to PlaneShift has RPG
experience and most people having RPG experience also know, that there is no
"one right way" to RP. Not talking to other players simply is the safe way
not to do anything, someone else could consider wrong and /report able.
One think I particularly consider a nuisance is the [ooc bracket] rule. It
is utmost unpractical as can be demonstrated by a simple example: Consider
two crafters roleplaying their profession. You'd expect them to quarrel
about best crafting techniques. There are wonderfull RP opportunities in
trying to sell their wares. How do you do this without mentioning quality (a
property about your wares, which your character does not really know)? The
answer is: You don't. Or at least not without hedging around the subject in
complicated ways. Most roleplay situations inevitably include a few OOC
lines, it is absolutly tedious to constantly think about whether you need
brackets or not. Also you'd think, that if someone is into RP, s/he can
decide herself if a line is OOC or not. Putting the brackets there is pretty
much a way of telling the other: "Ok, I think you are to stupid to recognize
OOC yourself, therefore I help you with visual aids". An impolite thing in
my opinion. The rule should simply be: Keep OOC to tells/group/guild if
possible and if not, at least try to be in a place where you do not disturb
anyone.
Last but not least, my biggest bone to pick is with the community itself.
Namely the self proclaimed ulber roleplayers and rule feticists. Sifting
through the forums, one can find numerous posts of people, who'd want to
restrict any conversation to RP only (I seem to even remember someone who
even wanted the tell channel be monitored by GM's for correct behaviour). While
this is not encouraging in itself (see above ... the possibility of getting
banned for OOC tells would be the biggest motivation not to say something at
all), one might actually want to observe the roleplay performed in
planeshift, which is usually (rare gems apart) the most boring and most
stupid drivel imagineable. In other words: Not enjoyable and therefore not
worth wasting time on it. I a fictive conversation like the following should
be the norm, I'd consider talking with an ulbernaut more fun (disclaimer:
The following is not an actual conversation, but a construction made up from
sniplets of common "roleplay").
[Setting: A Self Proclaimed Ulber Roleplayer (SPUR) camping the sewer
entries, hoping to "roleplay" someone into his guild]
SPUR: Hello Sire, nice to meet you.
("Hello Sire"? "Nice to meet you"? Dude, you just saw me crawling from the
sewers, my leather combo is torn and I have a smell on me, even flies find
repulsive. I'm covered in gore, my pockets are full of critter guts and I
didn't even care to sheat my daggers. What in the world makes you think,
that calling me "sire" is in any way the proper form to address me or that
there is even pleasure in meeting me?)
ME: Uhm ... pleassure
SPUR: Well good sir, care to join me for a drink in the tavern?
(Sure, why not? We just met for the first time and you are obiviously charmed
by me "eau de toilette", it makes perfect sense, that we should go to the
temple of roleplay, aka the tavern and worship the most powerful idol, ever
known to the roleplayer, the HOLY BEERMUG. Just allow me, to go to the
library first, so I don't make any mistakes, roleplaying it. I mean, there
should be whole shelves of books just about mugs: How to order them, how to
transport them, how to hold them, ways to drink from, stories of famous
mugs,... WHAT IS IT WITH THAT OBSESSION, "ROLEPLAYERS" SEEM TO HAVE WITH
BEVERAGES?! Gosh, do me a favour and never visit a pub in reallife, the
excitement might kill you!)
ME: No thank you (with a slight turn of red in the face).
SPUR: Friend, what ails thee?
("What ails me"? "What ails me"? I'll tell you, what ails me: SPUR's like
you, that constantly seem to confuse roleplay, the enacting of a character
with the enacting of Shakespear, because they think thats the way people
talked back in those days. I have news for you: They didn't and speaking in
complicated, perceived poetic grammar just makes chatting harder, which I
have no intention to continue with you).
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Irgendwer, your vision of planeshift roleplay is very skewed. I suggest you go out there and experience things before thinking up any more situations that rarely happen. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'm very certain that it's not done by 95% of the roleplayers on planeshift. So if, by chance, that was really an experience you had, it's an exception.
The old english spewing, treating everyone as royalty sort of character is a very common stereotype that people who are not into roleplay put on us roleplayers though.
Either way, just saying if that last bit about the community is a reason for you not to roleplay .. it's an invalid reason, not existing in reality.
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Irgendwer, your vision of planeshift roleplay is very skewed.
I thought he was joking? I thought it was funny... :-X Hm, I should stop skimming.
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Are you sure you've been playing Planeshift and not some other game? I have never heard anyone speak like that in PS, nor have I met self-proclaimed Ulber (or Uber for that matter) Role Players. Sometimes the term Uber is used as in insult meaning elitist (generally when one party finds another party's RP too restrictive), but I have never heard anyone refer to their selves as uber.
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In my opinion (sorry for derailing into gamedesign here),
charactergeneration should be a three step process:
1. Select race
2. Select general type
3. Select subtype
Your general type would be the generic choice of what your character would
preferably be (e.g. figther, mage, crafter, thief, merchant) and generally
affect you stats. Your subtype would be the role you actually like to play
(e.g. fighter/knight, fighter/mercenary, fighter/hunter, crafter/smith,
crafter/alchemist, mage/battlemage, mage/summoner, ... you gett the idea)
and affect the skills you get.
Wouldn't this lead to characters with no background story at all? The current character creation system shows player, that a background story is important. It surly isn't perfect, but just choosing a race, type and subtype doesn't sound good to me. A new player will select the kind of character he wants to play and won't spent any time on thinking about the background of his character.
But whats the point of wasting
time on implementing a backgroundsystem if nobody cares for the result?).
Maybe to help players with no experience to find a starting point for their story?
One think I particularly consider a nuisance is the [ooc bracket] rule. It
is utmost unpractical as can be demonstrated by a simple example: Consider
two crafters roleplaying their profession. You'd expect them to quarrel
about best crafting techniques. There are wonderfull RP opportunities in
trying to sell their wares. How do you do this without mentioning quality (a
property about your wares, which your character does not really know)?
I always thought that's why the OOC-bracket rule is there. Longer OOC conversations shouldn't be in the main chat tab or the auction tab. You could use /tell(s) for this. I always thought the brackets are for situations where some short OOC information is necessary (like the quality). Ah, and don't we have some nice attributes for ingots and stocks now (like inferior). I think those attributes could be used to advertise your stocks.
Ok, I think you are to stupid to recognize OOC yourself, therefore I help you with visual aids
What about those situations, where you as a player want to tell another player your opinion (or that you can't stop laughing before the screen). Sometimes it's very hard to distinguish what your character says, or what you as a player say
And about the Shakespear part...I agree with Zan there
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The next issue I have is with the tutorial system. Not, that I generally
consider it a bad thing (quite contrary), the problem is more, that it gives
the novice player the impression, that roleplay is of vital importance and
dropping OOC is a crime punishable by death. The cautious player will
therefore choose to avoid getting into trouble by simply not interacting with
other people at all. Keep in mind: Not everyone new to PlaneShift has RPG
experience and most people having RPG experience also know, that there is no
"one right way" to RP. Not talking to other players simply is the safe way
not to do anything, someone else could consider wrong and /report able.
If there is such thing as a "cautious player" why wouldn't they chose to explore and ask questions about OOC allowances to players through /tells, or the forums, or IRC #planeShift or PM's to obvious well established players? I find it hard to believe that a player would play PlaneShift and just keep to themselves due to warnings about OOC behavior in the tutorial. When I first started playing PlaneShift I had absolutely no RPG experience. I was able to pick up on the way the systems in PlaneShift work when it comes to OOC talk. It isn't that hard, unless of course the player doesn't have any common sense. There is to much information like players guides, threads (the forums), the planeshift offical website, IRC #PlaneShift and helpful community members for this "cautious player" to access and that does not warrant an excuse to feel like they have to live in the shadows of the PlaneShift community for fear of using OOC talk.
{NOTE: @ work and will add my other thoughts on this post when I get a chance. :) )
Keep OOC to tells/group/guild if
possible and if not, at least try to be in a place where you do not disturb
anyone.
This would work if people followed the rules. But they don't and still continue to talk in public chat with [] brackets. It seems impossible to get players to understand this, especially when new to the game. Hence the tutorial that you dislike telling players about OOC and the penalties. That was made for new players to get the idea of how important RP is in this community.
............ self proclaimed ulber roleplayers and rule feticists.
Wow, I really am sorry for who ever has given you this impression.
If there are players who are quoting the rules then this tells me that they take pride in the game which isn't a bad thing. They would appreciate new comers and old players stuck in their ways to folllow the rules so that we can all enjoy the gaming experience PlaneShift has to offer.
As for Rper's who are self proclaimed .... well it is usually those players who are high up on themselves. Most players don't want to have anything to do with RPer's like that. They are difficult to RP with and it becomes more of a headache then fun. Also it makes some of the community members want to avoid characters like that. With the example you posted above, if it were me I would have just walked away. What's the point in trying to RP with someone who obviously isn't into it? Why put yourself in a stressful situation like that?
::| If these are the type of RPer's you are hanging around with it makes no wonder that you haven't had great experiences in PlaneShift. Try talking with those who have been in game and are established characters. Usually they have alot of Roleplaying going on around them and have great tips on Rping and the game inself. They are also friendly and will introduce you to others in game so that you can eventually fill up that buddy list of yours. :)
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Sheesh, 6 posts flew by while I was making my little post. I disagree with Irgendwer on the character creation. I think that is a nice change of pace from other RPGs. It gives you a good sense of what the player is trying to accomplish as you get to know them. I think it could be developed more so it feels like you are "born and raised" into the world and not just appear out of thin air. For example, I have a level 9 in repair weapons, yet I have never repaired a weapon. Be nice if through the tutorial, my initial stats and skills are my main goal before I get transported to the Hydlaa. It'd be like my childhood, development period... Anyway, here's my opinion on making a role playing community...
Maybe someday someone will have an answer to the whole role playing question, but I think mechanics/gameplay has everything to do with the amount of role playing that goes on. You'll get a certain amount of role playing if you slap in a chat window, but if you want the majority of the PS population to be participating, then you need to have more options open for them to do what they like to do. If you only offer pubs, mining, monster killing, exploring, etc. then you will get minimal players doing what you think roleplaying is. I know right now, the last thing I want to do when I am "gaming" is sit around a pub and chit chat while I try to type how a dwarf would talk, and drinking a computerized beer. I want to be drawn in a new world that has minimal bounderies. The world has to be changing and adapting to the players actions. How many platinum ores does the local merchant really need and where are they all going... Why does Gulm need the same package from every player that asks him if he has a quest for them... If you create a dynamic world where one player can join a pickup game in log tossing or barrell rolling, and another can join the local blacksmithing beginners class, and another can set out on a quest with a group of other adventurers to discover the secret of the two headed kikirii or off to catch the band of thieves that just stole your pants, you'll have more players trying to become the kind of character they want to be. I think it is possible.
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1. No background story means that you have to actually... *GASP*... talk to the person to find out about them... almost like real life.
2. The story above... happened to me less than 30 minutes after I first entered the game. Almost verbatim.
3. All but 3 encounters I have had with random people, devolve into a invite to join their guild.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game and I will keep playing. However, the in-game community at large is, in my opinion:
1. Too segregated (in high school they were called "clicks") and don't associate with people they don't know.
or
2. Trying to get you to a different tab so as not to be /punished for ooc chat.
I keep trying, but this is largely what I get in response if people bother to talk back to me at all.
Sorry if I seem a little short, but people seem to want to pretend that things are different than they are, and those that publicly disagree get flamed.
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Sorry if I seem a little short, but people seem to want to pretend that things are different than they are, and those that publicly disagree get flamed.
Ahhhhh, but they are different. I also don't pretend. PLaneShifts community isn't perfect. There will always be idiots. This doesn't mean the community as a whole is like that.
Having a different opinion is not being flamed. Out right name calling and telling you your point is not valid because you haven't been in the community long enough is being flamed. Be sure to know the difference. Even those who have been on the forums for a long time still forget the difference at times. :)
I didn't have any issues when I first started playing PlaneShift with talking to random people and having them chat back. No one knew me, but I am a friendly person. I went around getting to know people and not have them come and get to know me. I browsed guilds forums and made hello threads to the guild members. I tried to gather knowledge about the game before I asked questions to players. I watched the game and forums for those who were well known and who seemed to be the helpful types and was able to join in with many different "clicks" by getting to know these people.
I have had some bad experiences with players who believe they are the best at what they do and therefore by god you should listen to them, but this was rare. Not as exaggerated as sometimes said on these forums.
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I suppose that everyone is going to have a slightly different experience, but for the most part I have found the PS community to be very open and welcoming. Of course, as in RL, there is a natural tendency to socialize with people you know and avoid those you don't, so it can take work to get to know people. But this is as in RL so I don't see that it's a problem. For those who have been playing a while, it is the constant flux of new characters that keeps it interesting.
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I'll admit I am not having the best day, but I read over and over how people think this or that on these forums. Some people have valid arguments, others are... um... trying to be polite... id-TEN-ts. I personally have offered some of my expertise to enhance the game, and offered many suggestions on different threads. I try to be polite, and only offer constructive criticism.
My time in-game has been very enjoyable, but the whole RP is utopia idea is in itself controversial at best. Nobody agrees on what RP really is, for a start. I understand that the background story idea is a way to get people "immersed" in the game world. However, that in and of itself reduces RP in-game, because people can just click on you and read your whole life story. People don't walk around with a book attached to their forehead by a leash for everyone to read.
I have tried to keep all of my "main tab" conversations in-character. Especially after having been through the tutorial, and been warned by others in-game to beware... the GM's watch the in-game conversations.
I don't usually just go up to people and try to force my way into a conversation, or join in to an existing conversation that i might overhear. I have tried to go up to a group and ask a question that I had, only to have them scatter. I don't know if they thought I was a GM and they had just gotten busted for having OOC conversations or just what. In all seriousness though, there is a big push to have all conversations happen on a different tab than "main" in-game.
Also, the fact that you constantly have to switch tabs (only via mouse click... or i haven't found the shortcuts for the individual tabs yet), so I tend to let several tabs blink until i feel like looking at them. It might be nice to have a way to have each tab be individually selectable to be it's own window. I just know it gets annoying switching back and forth all the time.
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/me pats Mythryndel on the back and gives him a flower :flowers:
I am sorry your day is going crappy. If it means anything I wrecked my new white jeans by slipping and falling in mud. :/ I also had to come to work like this because I didn't have time to change.
Just remember Rome wasn't built in a day, and I highly doubt PlaneShfit will be either. Things have yet to be worked out and everyone hates to hear this but it will take time. The imperfections with RPing in game needs alot of work and we as players can only give suggestions and feedback as to how to fix some on going issues. Believe me when I say the PlaneShift staff is listening. (or reading rather :P) Just because they don't post and say "OMG what a great idea!" doesn't mean they haven't taken in to consideration the players points of views.
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My time in-game has been very enjoyable, but the whole RP is utopia idea is in itself controversial at best. Nobody agrees on what RP really is, for a start. I understand that the background story idea is a way to get people "immersed" in the game world. However, that in and of itself reduces RP in-game, because people can just click on you and read your whole life story. People don't walk around with a book attached to their forehead by a leash for everyone to read.
Sorry to hear about your day. Can't always have good ones, I guess. My advice is to have some blueberry pie.
Anyways, the description (the thing you see when you double click on somebody) should be a physical description. Clothes, height, weight, general appearance, general demeanor, things people would notice about you in real life but can't due to game mechanics. Some people write their backstory there but, I wouldn't really call them right in doing so. For one, I doubt many people really want to read somebodies life story and secondly, it's OOC for people to know and people get confused between IC and OOC enough without having to add to it :P
As for the chat tabs, my advice is to stay on main and watch for tells. Nothing else is really important.
And the tavern is probably the best place to start Roleplaying. At least, it used to be. If you notice a group of people who are talking about basically nothing, it's usually easy to slip into the conversation.
Hope your day gets better and remember, blueberry pie. Not apple.
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* Mythryndel graciously accepts the flower from zorbels *
If i didn't think that PS was worth something, I wouldn't spend my time posting to try to make it better. I am patient and willing to work with people to make things happen. Just get tired of people making personal attacks or trying to disregard things that they don't agree with as stupid.
Since this thread started, I have made a conscious effort to engage others in dialog in-game. Last night was exhausting trying to go back and forth between tabs. I was grouped with a friend I am introducing to the game, had a conversation going with my guild, and was trying to coordinate a transaction with someone from an auction posting. All on different tabs. That takes away from gameplay... and RP. Even beyond last night though, it was as i stated earlier... guild invites, brush off, or quickly straying to ooc. I spend most of my time in Oja, and only last night made it beyond Hydlaa without getting lost. It may be that all the wonderful RP that people keep talking about is happening wherever I am not. Who knows. I just call it like i see it.
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hmmm I have to agree that it is hard to keep track of all the tabs at times. specially if you have something going on in guild and in main at the same time and a tell now and then just to spice things up :P
Plenty of things wrong and plenty of things to improve in planeshift. the biggest problem is that people simply don't agree on things. Not just don't agree on what the end goal should be but also disagreeing with at what point planeshift is at this point.
Makes it rather tricky to figue out what really needs changing and after all only a few who can actually make such choices in the end.
Wich often gives another problem seeing those people are often no longer seen as "players".
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Just so that it is known for maybe the next update, I completely agree with an upgrade to the chat interface window. The blinking is seriously annoying and causes bad behavior. I don't care that I just sat down or stood up, so after a while I stop clicking on the Main tab and it ends up blinking for 10 minutes. Then I find out later that someone greeted me, asked a question or waved at me and I didn't catch it because I've grown to ignore the blinking Main tab. To me, this goes under mechanics and a few little tweaks here and there could make it easier to be a loud obnoxious dwarf that likes attention everytime they walk into a room, or just a person that likes to greet the fellow passer-by with a quick push of the button... and I know, I know, there are customized short-cut keys, which are great once you get them set up, but I think short-cut buttons in the chat window like this forum has, would serve for quicker responses, fun expressions and outbursts, especially for the new players.
Just an idea, but instead of tabs for Main, Tells, NPCs, there should be one chat window and different Send buttons for where you want to direct your voice. Though it is only embarrassing the first 15 times when you say "can I help you" on the Main tab instead of the NPC tab...
I also agree that there still needs to be a description when you "examine" someone, but yep, maybe it shouldn't go into such detail, just demeanor, little things you'd notice in "real" life, but tough to pick up in a game. Though of course, this is a game with magic, so why can't there be an ability to see a person's name floating over their head and the ability to read their life story by clicking on them... anything is possible in PS...
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StitchedChin,
you are aware of the numerous options to filter different things from the main tab?
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Ah, Options for the interface, that's a great idea. I didn't notice it on the bottom of the options list. I checked it out and will mess around with some of the settings. Looks like you can do some customization, though not exactly sure what each one ends up doing. I don't want to turn off all blinking to the Main tab, just some of the messages that aren't so important. Looks like there are some other things to try in there, also. Thanks for the head's up Velh! I wonder too, are interfaces different between O/S? I'm trying it out in Ubuntu, but maybe people in Windows are having an easier experience?
And yes, this is still somewhat on topic as once this interface is more comfortable to me, I'll want to try and be more social. Just tedious and takes some getting used to it, especially when you are typing away in a conversation, the window loses focus and you start running around and option screen and inventory menu are popping up everywhere... takes a bit to get your composure back to continue the conversation. Just glad the "A" key doesn't make you take a swing at who you are talking too... that would be a bit awkward.
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Wouldn't this lead to characters with no background story at all? The current character creation system shows player, that a background story is important. It surly isn't perfect, but just choosing a race, type and subtype doesn't sound good to me. A new player will select the kind of character he wants to play and won't spent any time on thinking about the background of his character.
Leaving the background story out of it, was the whole point of the suggestion. A Background story is something only a creative mind can
come up with. Computers are not creative, nobody honestly reads nor cares for the created background. Especially not because the player
in question usually made the choices s/he made for getting the desired stats. A new player selecting the kind of character s/he wants to
play without spending time on thinking about the background is exactly the situation you now have.
But whats the point of wasting
time on implementing a backgroundsystem if nobody cares for the result?).
Maybe to help players with no experience to find a starting point for their story?
This was rather an economical question, whether or not it makes sense to invest work in further developing a system with obvious
shortcomings or rather invest that time and energy into something more beneficial. The answer to your question is: No, it does not
help inexperienced players at all. Look around ingame, how many players run around with the text produced during charactergeneration.
It's a safe bet, a lot of people do not even touch it for the fear of breaking something (e.g. at some point running into a quest, where
the NPC wants to know something from the original background which is no longer available).
Point simply is: New players have other worries then writing a background story and writing a good story requires familiarity with the
world. Both comes naturally over time.
I always thought that's why the OOC-bracket rule is there. Longer OOC conversations shouldn't be in the main chat tab or the auction tab. You could use /tell(s) for this. I always thought the brackets are for situations where some short OOC information is necessary (like the quality). Ah, and don't we have some nice attributes for ingots and stocks now (like inferior). I think those attributes could be used to advertise your stocks.
Point is: The [occ] rule does not work very well in practise. It even becomes utmost ridicolous, if someone tells you "[use [brackets] if not speaking IC]". Appearantly that someone is well aware of the fact, that something said was OOC (at least in his/her opinion). In this case, the use of brackets did not just not tell this person something s/he did not know already, but also provoked more OOC chat from a rulenerd. It gets even worse, when a chatline can be considered either IC or OOC or a conversation begs an OOC answer. A simple example for this is indeed weapon quality. Don't expect people to buy, if the only meassurement of quality you can give is "inferior", "standard" or "superior". Then what? You give an answer like "[yeah, this one is q50 and that one is q60]". The customer decides upon the OOC answer and you both pretend it was never said. Congratulations, you just roleplayed yourself to death by making an IC decission based on OCC knowledge (please no suggestions, on how you could say, that both blades look standard quality, but one seems a bit sharper. The weapon example is just the most common one, where it clearly shows, how the [ooc] rule falls flat on it's face in practical gameplay).
What about those situations, where you as a player want to tell another player your opinion (or that you can't stop laughing before the screen). Sometimes it's very hard to distinguish what your character says, or what you as a player say
How about assuming, that your conversational partner has the ability to think and is able to determine from the context, what is IC and what is OOC? Even though it seems like people do expect it: OOC is not the cause for server crashes. If it is really needed, there is nothing that stops you from using [ooc] brackets by convention, if you feel you have to make perfectly clear, that something is not said IC. Point simply is: RPG dialogues are nice. I enjoy doing RPG, when there's a good opportunity to do it. But it's utopian to expect people to do it constantly. It takes the joy out of roleplay having to think for the other.
If there is such thing as a "cautious player" why wouldn't they chose to explore and ask questions about OOC allowances to players through /tells, or the forums, or IRC #planeShift or PM's to obvious well established players? I find it hard to believe that a player would play PlaneShift and just keep to themselves due to warnings about OOC behavior in the tutorial.
You do realize, that is is complete and utter nonsense? A cautious player in this context is a new player and you expect him/her to use the means of well established players? Also you might consider me to be a cautious player, as this was written from my experience. I'd be seriously insulted if you insisted on me not existing.
This would work if people followed the rules. But they don't and still continue to talk in public chat with [] brackets. It seems impossible to get players to understand this, especially when new to the game. Hence the tutorial that you dislike telling players about OOC and the penalties. That was made for new players to get the idea of how important RP is in this community.
Well appearantly people are not following the rules and never will. This might be considered as a hint, that there's something wrong with the rules.
Also I have the impression, that you did not understand the point I was trying to make: You are not getting anywhere by being pushy. Being just a bit more subtle on the importance of role play might be a bit more effective, then letting the last NPC hammer it into your skull with a q300 warhammer.
self proclaimed ulber roleplayers and rule feticists.
Wow, I really am sorry for who ever has given you this impression.
[/quote]
Currently? Sad to say this: You.
Reading your post, I get the impression, that you consider RP something holy and that your style is superior to that of others. Also you appear keen of rules. I might do you a lot of injustice here, as one post is hardly enough to judge a person, but nevertheless postings like this seem to be symptomatic for this forum. This is what forms the impression, people get and proves my point. Please don't take this as an offense, it was/is not meant to be one. Rather as a thought provoking impulse to stop and think for a moment. Whether you agree or disagree with me afterwards is up to you, I don't intent on commenting further on the issue, as I am not intrested into derailing this thread into a flamewar.
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Why need a background story when your character can be an amnesiac!
I didn't read much about the klyros or why they are in Yliakrum, so the story is my character suddenly wakes up one day in Hydlaa plaza (my first login) and just kind of went from there.
I love to RP because it's so much fun when your character is the IC equivalent of an IRL troll. Whenever I see some people arguing on the point of violence, I go buy 10 mugs of beer, throw it at them, and command any nearby ladies to take their clothes off.
That and sit around taunting people who could probably kill me in one hit because my character knows the guards will beat the hell out of him if he attacks me.
RP, the most fun a jackass can have.
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self proclaimed ulber roleplayers and rule feticists.
Wow, I really am sorry for who ever has given you this impression.
Currently? Sad to say this: You.
Reading your post, I get the impression, that you consider RP something holy and that your style is superior to that of others (...)
You should probably reread her post then... and maybe yours too.
Now, about the points you mentioned in your first post:
- Character creation offers an opportunity to teach new players a little about the game settings. It's true that there are things that need some work there but considering many players take a while before they start looking into what exists and what doesn't in PS, it is an important step. The fact that the choices they make may result in a less or more powerful character is not directly linked to how they interact with other players, but rather how successful they can be at avoiding entering the DR for the first time. In that sense, while it may require some revision, it doesn't necessarily constitute a barrier for RP.
- The tutorial is there to help players learn the basics of the game. It condenses most aspects of the game so the player can learn the gameplay basics. Obviously, by having multiple instances, no player-player interaction can happen there IC. A player who has completed the tutorial is less likely to interrupt other players' RP with basic questions like "I'm new, can you give me a weapon?" or "how do I fight?". We encourage helping the newcomers but we if we can have them access the information on their own we'll try, so that interaction has less to do with mechanics and more to do with RP. The tutorial also offers a few guidelines about RP but it's not its main purpose. After all, RP is better learned as you do it and from real people, not NPCs.
- The OOC rule does not imply that no OOC is allowed. It means that players should try to avoid using it excessively in the main tab and if they do use it, they should use the brackets so that it can be easy to tell if what they say is not part of RP. It allows players to skim through dialogs and focus on the IC entries and also makes it obvious that it is an outside element in the tab. That said, afaik nobody has been banned for using OOC. If someone has ever abused it, they've been sent a /tell about it or received a /warn. In very rare cases someone has been /muted for it, let alone kicked off the server (and if so, it was probably because they were insulting others or something like that). You seem to think GMs are out there looking for players to bust and punish. We're not about that. New players do not get a "BREAK THE RULES AND YOU'LL BE BANNED" sign so the assumption that they are scared of everything is a bit far fetched. Some players may be overly cautious about what they do and what they say but that's not likely the majority of them and probably because that's how they are not because of a message the game is sending. Excessive OOC in the main tab disrupts RP. However, I don't get how the rule about keeping it scarce and using [ ] disrupts RP as well.
- In your example, you are complaining about someone who is trying to RP with you, they are not trying to massrecruit for their guild or spam you with trade or duel requests, no... they are RPing... so... who's the self proclaimed uber roleplayer again? The one trying to roleplay or the one thinking their RP is ridiculous and acting offended by it? If the other player were talking about how they are going to pwn you or whatever, I'd see why talking to them may not sound like that much fun to you. But they were actually trying to spike RP with you. If you want them to notice how much you stink and how unpleasant your character is, say it: "/me politely offers his hand, covered in sewer mud and rat blood", "/me wipes his dirty hands on his even dirtier clothes. It's hard to say if the blood on his face is his or some rat's", and so on. And if you really don't feel like talking to them a "No, thanks" will do. I fail to see how that scenario will put you off from roleplaying but I do see how the other player may not want to RP with you again or try to RP with someone they don't know.
What Zorbels pointed, and you seem to have missed, was that there are many kinds of people both ingame and IRL, and they all can have a different idea of fun and RP. The good, the bad and the ugly all coexist and we don't say who gets in and who doesn't. PS welcomes all players as long as they respect the game rules and each other. If you have had the bad luck to run into the unpleasant ones, there are plenty more people that make up for them. Stick around and you'll find them.
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OOC rule... I don't know what time you play, but I can tel you this. If I play in the morning I come across a lot of people not following the rule at all
Does this mean I know it is OOC what they are doing? Yes ofcourse I know there are no computers and whatnot in Planeshift, but the point is if people start talking as players that you can't really roleplay your character anymore without it looking silly. I mean how do you IC respond to someone complaining about the introduction system being awfull?
That is why there is an OOC rule and that is why there is a rule about brackets. Specially becuase if someone keep using OOC and IC through eachother it isn't always as obvious as that example. I agree trading is often more OOC then IC so you will see OOC information that is actually needed to make a fair trade, but besides trading I see few cases where you can't use a tell or simply use brackets to make something clear.
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:offtopic: thought generated from discussion.
How about teaching people about how to change their description in the tutorial and have a blurb about their default being optional? The edit description button on the skills tab is easy to overlook and people may not change their default description because they have no idea it can be done at all, if they haven't seen a custom one or how to do it if they have. If they are doing the tutorial they probably haven't seen a custom job.
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Now, about the points you mentioned in your first post:
I'm sorry, but I fail to see your point, much like you fail to see mine. It was you as a thread starter, who asked what makes people not want to roleplay. What exactly were you looking for as answers? Simply a bunch of reassurances, that everything is fine and there's nothing to wory about (appearantly there was something nagging you to write the OP)? Sorry to say that, but if you are not intrested in crititzismn, simply don't ask for it. Saves everyone a great deal of time.
You asked a question, you got an answer for it. Whether you make something out of it or prefer to stay in your ivory tower, pretending the thing irking you is just your imagination is all the same to me.
*edit*
OOC rule... I don't know what time you play, but I can tel you this. If I play in the morning I come across a lot of people not following the rule at all
Well ... if the majority of people mutually agree on not following a certain rule, this might be seen as a hint, that said rule needs some revision.
Does this mean I know it is OOC what they are doing? Yes ofcourse I know there are no computers and whatnot in Planeshift, but the point is if people start talking as players that you can't really roleplay your character anymore without it looking silly. I mean how do you IC respond to someone complaining about the introduction system being awfull?
Uhm ... maybe you simply ignore it, like you would if there were [ooc] brackets around the chatlines? Unless you have some kind of filter implemented, that automatically throws away everything in [ooc brackets], so you don't see OOC chat at all, you don't benefit from this markup at all (and before someone now thinks implementing such a thing would be a neat idea: It isn't - see merchant example).
Ok, so it happens, that you occasionally overhear a conversation, that is OOC. In IC terms this simply means that there are two people talking about something your character is unable to understand. Why should this be disturbing? If I walk over a campus in reallife, I'm likely as well to overhear a conversation between two professors argueing about quantum physics for example. I will not be able to have a clue on what they are talking about. Should I be annoyed about that? Maybe even approach them and demand that they change their topic so I can join their conversation? I mean is your role that of someone, who has to be able to join each and every conversation?
If someone activly approaches you with what you feel to be OOC, the IC answer to that is simply to play dumb (hey, you get your RP here for free). If this does not work as a broad hint, probably nothing will.
That is why there is an OOC rule and that is why there is a rule about brackets. Specially becuase if someone keep using OOC and IC through eachother it isn't always as obvious as that example. I agree trading is often more OOC then IC so you will see OOC information that is actually needed to make a fair trade, but besides trading I see few cases where you can't use a tell or simply use brackets to make something clear.
Humans are generally a lazy species, meaning they generally try to reach a goal with minimum effort. Switching tabs is an effort. Typing the brackets is an effort, constantly thinking about whether or not the next thing you are going to say requires brackets (sometimes it's just a question of wording) is a tremendous effort. Sometimes people just want to get things done. If my weapons are worn and I need repair and I have to go soon, I simply don't want to RP the deal in every detail. It can be fun occasionally, but generally I don't want to spend 5 minutes hedging around the bush trying to explain IC, that I need someone who can repair [q250/280]. If I see someone casting a cool spell and killing critters with it in one hit, I don't want to steal a lot of his/her time inquiring, in political correct RP, how to get this spell (of course, if the player in question hints, that s/he wants to RP the situation, thats fine with me as well). There are countless situations like these, where one line of OOC makes life a tremendously lot simpler (and where it is utmost annyoing, finding a rulenerd jumping out of the next bush trying to guilttrip you for commiting horrible sins). Personally I do RP for entertaining. Not for the sake of it and as I pointed out earlier I'm not intrested in roleplaying drivel. Repeating the same RP over and over again (e.g. roleplaying out every weapon purchase or worshipping the beermugs) is anything but entertaining. Insisting that people do it anyway is (among other things) what makes them not want to do it (and that is the answer to the OP).
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Now, about the points you mentioned in your first post:
I'm sorry, but I fail to see your point, much like you fail to see mine. It was you as a thread starter, who asked what makes people not want to roleplay. What exactly were you looking for as answers? Simply a bunch of reassurances, that everything is fine and there's nothing to wory about (appearantly there was something nagging you to write the OP)? Sorry to say that, but if you are not intrested in crititzismn, simply don't ask for it. Saves everyone a great deal of time.
You asked a question, you got an answer for it. Whether you make something out of it or prefer to stay in your ivory tower, pretending the thing irking you is just your imagination is all the same to me.
My point is that I fail to see the relevance of the things you mentioned as direct deterrents for RP. I understand they can be annoying and I am not trying to minimize or deny their flaws but the thread is not about what you don't like about the game, it's about the specific things that are keeping players from roleplaying. The tutorial, the [OOC] rule, and character creation, while they can bother some people and it's perfectly valid that they might not like them, for the effect of answering the question, do not seem to me as relevant as the new introduction system or disruptive player behavior. Are you saying that if there were no tutorial there would be more RP? If there were no character creation/default background stories there would be more RP? If OCC were fully allowed in main chat there would be more RP? If so, please elaborate. I'm intrigued. And consider that if you're not interested in discussing other points of view, then perhaps you should avoid posting yours. Saves everyone a great deal of time.
Note that I am not disregarding your opinion or your experience in the game. I just haven't completely understood your answers to the original question. However, I find other points in your post quite clear and with which I happen to agree, like how players can sometimes be RP Nazis or too inflexible with some rules and are constantly policing other players and disrupting their RP with "suggestions". That kind of attitude does make people want to ignore the rest and directly affects RP.
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I know this has nothing to do with the thread but I feel I have to answer this post. Whether I should waste my time or not on it is something I have thought about but in the end do feel the need to defend myself.
If there is such thing as a "cautious player" why wouldn't they chose to explore and ask questions about OOC allowances to players through /tells, or the forums, or IRC #planeShift or PM's to obvious well established players? I find it hard to believe that a player would play PlaneShift and just keep to themselves due to warnings about OOC behavior in the tutorial.
You do realize, that is is complete and utter nonsense? A cautious player in this context is a new player and you expect him/her to use the means of well established players? Also you might consider me to be a cautious player, as this was written from my experience. I'd be seriously insulted if you insisted on me not existing.
*sigh*
I don't recall feeling "cautious" as a new player or getting that feeling from the rules. I am going on what I experienced when I first started. I have never heard anyone that I have talked to in PlaneShift discribe themselves as a cautious player, and I have never seen the term used in the forums. It is new to me.
You know you could have handled this post alot better. Instead of saying that I am uttering complete nonsense and risk offending me (if you really didn't want to offend), you could have just said "Well I disagree, because I find I am a cautious player. This is why ...." Then I would realize there are such people. I would then know for future reference. Anyhow be "insulted" if you would like but I would probably find something worth being insulted over. This just seems ........ well .. silly to me to be insulted over this minor issue. If I didn't know any better I think from the way your post reads that you want to be.
A cautious player in this context is a new player and you expect him/her to use the means of well established players?
X-/ Erm ... I never said that.
Further more I am confused and wondering what the heck you are talking about? A cautious player is careful. I am pretty sure that veteran players are just as careful as new players. Especially when it comes to setting and rules, because veteran players should know better. Why wouldn't a new player ask questions to them and try to get a feel for the game? Why wouldn't a new player check out the guides posted on the forums and the main PlaneShift website.
Are you saying that if your a new player you don't have to do these things and can just be ignorant to the game and it's rules until you are familiar with the game?
This would work if people followed the rules. But they don't and still continue to talk in public chat with [] brackets. It seems impossible to get players to understand this, especially when new to the game. Hence the tutorial that you dislike telling players about OOC and the penalties. That was made for new players to get the idea of how important RP is in this community.
Well appearantly people are not following the rules and never will. This might be considered as a hint, that there's something wrong with the rules.
Also I have the impression, that you did not understand the point I was trying to make: You are not getting anywhere by being pushy. Being just a bit more subtle on the importance of role play might be a bit more effective, then letting the last NPC hammer it into your skull with a q300 warhammer.
No ..... it is just human nature to not want to sumit to rules. That isn't a hint that there is something wrong. It is proof that there are all different types of people playing this game from young to old. Some are ok with rules and will follow them. Others are not. You will always have your rebellious individuals. That isn't the games fault. This is solely on the players.
In no way am I a pushy person and I think you need to check your head before making such assumtions. I am not the creator of this game. I only respect what the staff of PlaneShift askes us as players to do and not to do. That is hardly being pushy.
self proclaimed ulber roleplayers and rule feticists.
Wow, I really am sorry for who ever has given you this impression.
If there are players who are quoting the rules then this tells me that they take pride in the game which isn't a bad thing. They would appreciate new comers and old players stuck in their ways to folllow the rules so that we can all enjoy the gaming experience PlaneShift has to offer.
As for Rper's who are self proclaimed .... well it is usually those players who are high up on themselves. Most players don't want to have anything to do with RPer's like that. They are difficult to RP with and it becomes more of a headache then fun. Also it makes some of the community members want to avoid characters like that. With the example you posted above, if it were me I would have just walked away. What's the point in trying to RP with someone who obviously isn't into it? Why put yourself in a stressful situation like that?
::| If these are the type of RPer's you are hanging around with it makes no wonder that you haven't had great experiences in PlaneShift. Try talking with those who have been in game and are established characters. Usually they have alot of Roleplaying going on around them and have great tips on Rping and the game inself. They are also friendly and will introduce you to others in game so that you can eventually fill up that buddy list of yours. :)
Currently? Sad to say this: You.
Reading your post, I get the impression, that you consider RP something holy and that your style is superior to that of others. Also you appear keen of rules. I might do you a lot of injustice here, as one post is hardly enough to judge a person, but nevertheless postings like this seem to be symptomatic for this forum. This is what forms the impression, people get and proves my point. Please don't take this as an offense, it was/is not meant to be one. Rather as a thought provoking impulse to stop and think for a moment. Whether you agree or disagree with me afterwards is up to you, I don't intent on commenting further on the issue, as I am not intrested into derailing this thread into a flamewar.
/me looks shocked
Me? Consider my RP to be holy? My style seems to be superior to others? Are you kidding me? BTW I took the liberty to post the whole quote and not just one sentence of it. I try to be helpful and to give support or aid to people. Encourage them to try new avenues. To be a positive voice on the forums.
I am not the reason you posted in the first place and it is really childish that you are implying I am the reason for your term self proclaimed ulber roleplayers and rule feticists. I was simply letting you know these rules are there for a reason. I was trying to be helpful. I do put alot of thought into my posts before posting and try to answer or address what is being talked about. So there is no need for me to re read your post and "see" your point of view. I can assure you I already did that.
I find it funny and ironic that at the very end of this insulting post that you state "I am not interested into derailing this thread into a flame war." I am not one for flame wars, so no worries I won't be reacting to your utter and complete nonsense (a term you like to use). But you my friend could learn a thing or two about being polite when you disagree with someone. I find your attitude towards me rude and I haven't done anything to you to deserve this sort of treatment. I simply answered a post. Your welcome. ::)
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Ok, to elaborate my points (as requested by dajoji):
The current charactergeneration method does not prevent people from roleplaying. It is however a bad start into it, as it focuses on helping you to get a backgroundstory, whereas it should actually help you to define a role(!). If I want to create a character for any RPG, I start thinking about, what my character is suppose to be and derive my background from that, not the other way around. The custom way simply does it backwards and tries to archieve something that is impossible. A computer is not creative and cannot give you a background, that is in any way especially unique or exciting. I totally understand why you (and several others) consider a background to be of vital importance, but a computer generated one is pretty much worth the same as no background at all. All the current system produces is hassle, waste of time and distraction from what really matters. If you insist on "helping" your players by doing the thinking for them, how/why do you suppose, they'd start using their own imagination? This is the reason, why I call the current character generation broken by design: It cannot reach it's goal because it contradicts itself. It does not advance creativity, instead it dulls it down. This leads to boring characters and roleplaying with boring characters is boring as well. Hence a reason not to roleplay.
The thing that is wrong with the tutorial is basicly the current dialogues. The last NPC went totally anal about the importance of roleplay. When I had finally passed him, my impression actually was:
1. "Ok, the mother of all SPUR must have written his(their) script(s)."
2. "My style of RP will not meet these standards."
3. "Well, there's probably quests and exploring to do. I can stick to that and won't disturb anyone, if I don't talk to people".
Of course, these were my thoughts and of course you can say, that I got it totally wrong. If I got it right or wrong however does not matter, as we are talking here about the subjective impression, the current tutorial can produce. Others may end it with different feelings, but there is no reason to assume, that I am not a random representative of a whole class of like minded people.
To emphasize: The tutorial is a good idea (though making it skipable may be a nice option), the current dialogues however are not. They try to teach you the importance of RP with a sledgehammer. Leaving the tutorial with the impression, that "wrong" roleplay can get you into trouble (no matter if that is actually the case or not) discourages RP instead of encouraging it.
This brings me to the [ooc] rule. Actually I don't know how to emphasize even more, why I consider this to be a stupid idea, though I must say, I had an insightfull PM about it (which sadly I cannot answer because not having posted enough, yet). Of course, there are situations, where it is desireable to explicitly mark certain lines to be OOC. I had these even myself. Ironically however the other players involved did not react to it as if spoken OOC. IMHO this is exactly because rulenerds going completly anal about the mainchat being reserved for IC only and the only allowed way around this is to use these stupid brackets. To me it seems, is if people just type them to be safe from pointless debates and ignore their presence completely when reading it. Does this hurt RP? Certainly so! I interact less with other people if I have to fear my conversation being disrupted by a rulenerd, who forces me into a debate whether or not something I said should have been on brackets or not. It also hurts RP, if people just use the brackets to be safe (and thats what they do!), you end up having gaps in the conversation.
To sum it up: The [ooc] rule is basicly just fodder for rulenerds. Trying to limit mainchat to IC only is to tilt at windmills. Roleplay is something people only learn by practise, constantly being corrected by SPUR and rulenerds is just discouraging. The better way to approach the problem is to make the rule into a convention. People will pick it up and use it correctly automatically then.
Finally this leaves the question, why there are SPUR and rulenerds. I am afraid, this is a partly homegrown problem. Rulenerds simply flourish on having rules to enforce. Guess what the tutorial teaches them. As for SPUR ... Well, their motor is topping other SPUR and as there is an anal emphasis on RP already everywhere, thats a reassurement.
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/me reads Irgendwer's posts about the tutorial and is completely confused.
Is this the line that has you all riled up?
Xargon Guurn says: Excellent! Please remember to act in-character when talking to others. We are all working towards a roleplayed atmosphere in PlaneShift, regardless of the current client version. OOC -Out-Of-Character- text should be designated with parentheses or brackets, as regular text is that which comes from the mouth of your character, a person who lives in the world of Yliakum and knows nothing about computers, video games, the internet, or Picasso.
I just read the parts you are talking about, and honestly don't see where you are getting the idea that the tutorial implies that OOC is banned from the main chat, and that failure to follow this 'rule' will have GMs falling out of the sky on you. "should be designated" not "Must be... or else." I don't understand what you mean by teaching with a sledgehammer either. It is written in a reasonable tone.
I don't understand what you want either. No suggestion at all that [brackets] are preferred for OOC? Somehow making the dialogue 'gentler'?
The 'rule' about brackets evolved from players, not Devs. As the game evolved, players began using them more and more. The 'rule' was taught to new player by players, and still is. It has become part of the culture. The Devs can do -nothing- about that. The 'rule' is placed in there so new players do not get blindsided by people telling them how things are generally done in PS (sometimes in a not so nice manner if you run into a jerk). People who talk excessively OOC in open chat will get poked about it by other players. People who do it constantly are disrupting other players and will get warned by a GM.
PlaneShift is a lot more exclusive in how we want players to act. If a player can not handle that, then this is simply not the game for them. Some people complain about not being able to have that 'c00l' name they had in Runescape, or can't start that l33t guild they were in in WoW. Then there are those that complain that unbroken English is required instead of hacked up netspeak or txt. Following that, there are the folks that find it terrible that they can't be Half-elf, Dark Drow, or have their character worship that really neat god they just thought up... or be the child of that god. Not to forget the godmode people who think it is wrong that they can't /me cuts his foes to little bits before anyone can react. Finally, we have the people that complain that the Chat is too restrictive around OOC and brackets. No, it is not a new complaint. It has been around ever since players started enforcing it themselves.
Will you run into 'rulenerds'? Yes, of course. They were around far before the tutorial was ever created. Jerks exist everywhere, on both sides. You will have the rulejerk on one side, and the rulebreakerjerk on the other- the smoker who smokes in the non-smoking section just to be a jerk. The only way to stop them is to make more rules, or no rules. Both are taking the actual 'rules' to the extreme.
Now, from the above, you may think that I am one of those 'rulenerds' or SPURs. I am not. I use [OOC] often in main for a verity of reasons. Commenting OOC on something funny said by another character or my own, asking for clarification, even talking about features on occasion if RP is light, as long as it is not interrupting anyone.
The tutorial is there to explain what those dotted lines are on the road so you don't get into trouble for crossing them at the wrong time. It is a matter of respecting what other players wish, not what the Devs have set forth as rules.
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/me reads Irgendwer's posts about the tutorial and is completely confused.
Is this the line that has you all riled up?
Xargon Guurn says: Excellent! Please remember to act in-character when talking to others. We are all working towards a roleplayed atmosphere in PlaneShift, regardless of the current client version. OOC -Out-Of-Character- text should be designated with parentheses or brackets, as regular text is that which comes from the mouth of your character, a person who lives in the world of Yliakum and knows nothing about computers, video games, the internet, or Picasso.
This line, his other rantings about the importance of roleplay and his constant inquireries if I have been paying attention. Phrases such as: " All right- now, my dear Sir, can you guess which word I am thinking of that starts with the letter 'R'?
We can now debate hours about how my subjective impression differs from yours and that I shouldn't have had it. This however does change the fact, that I had did.
To elaborate my impression after passing Xargon Guurn:
Aha, nice. A lecture on roleplay, written for idiots, telling me the dos and don'ts and constantly asking a question to make sure, I have read his lines. I may not enter the game till I have answered correctly. Erm ... "This website contains adult material (pr0n!). You may not enter unless you are of legal age (Enter/Leave)"? Ok, Question: If you are writing something for idiots, what makes you think, a genuine idiot will undertand it? What makes you think, a smartass will pay real attention? What makes you think a novice can roleplay without getting a bit familiar with the surroundings first and still has the turorial fresh in memory once s/he stumples in the first real RP situation?
Ok, someone here appearantly put quite a lot of time in writing a script, that will either tell nothing new to or overload the new player with information, just to stress out his/her point. Hm, this person was obviously a staffmember, making this the official stance of the dev team. Hm^2, this is a noncommercial project, meaning those people are working to get on what Blizzard et all won't give them to their satisfaction. Hm^3, what in the world could that possibly be (I think it starts with the letter "R")?
Ok, here we have a game, where SPUR can thrive and will find a very open ear. Do I want to have debates with a nitpick SPUR because s/he thinks my way of RP does not qualify as RP? No. Do I want the arguement to be constantly taken to the GMs? Certainly not! What can I do to avoid that? Simple: Keep to myself. No toes to step on that way.
I don't understand what you want either. No suggestion at all that [brackets] are preferred for OOC? Somehow making the dialogue 'gentler'?
1. Rethink the bracket rule. It does not work.
2. Rework the dialogue of the RP NPC. Strip it down to the bare minimums and try to rub it less into the player.
3. Rereading the chatlog, I think that a lot of what the NPC tries to teach you should actually go to your inventory in form of a handbook. That way you have it still around, when you need it (or have something to read while being exhausted).
The 'rule' about brackets evolved from players, not Devs. As the game evolved, players began using them more and more. The 'rule' was taught to new player by players, and still is. It has become part of the culture. The Devs can do -nothing- about that. The 'rule' is placed in there so new players do not get blindsided by people telling them how things are generally done in PS (sometimes in a not so nice manner if you run into a jerk). People who talk excessively OOC in open chat will get poked about it by other players. People who do it constantly are disrupting other players and will get warned by a GM.
If you read the Xargon Guurn chatlog again, you'll find, he teaches you this rule. Meaning it comes from the devs as far as the novice player is concerned. Stating, that I get warned by a GM for constantly using OOC (mind: Talking about stats is already perceived OOC. I don't need to mention "lightsabres", which by the way I am cabable and even willing to do in in IC fashion just to annoy a SPUR when s/he starts lecturing me) directly contradicts a statement made by you earlier, that this won't happen. This and the fact, that you are aware of players enforcing rules by themselves validates my point: The easiest way to avoid trouble is by either keeping to yourself (answering the question, what makes people not want to RP - see threat topic) or giving in to the stupidity and appease the rulenerds and SPUR by giving them their brackets. It will of course still be OOC, but now that it is savely contained within brackets, the deadly radiation it emits is shielded.
PlaneShift is a lot more exclusive in how we want players to act. If a player can not handle that, then this is simply not the game for them.
Sorry to say that, but: Welcome to SPUR camp. What you just said in these two sentences is this: If you cannot live up to our standards, which btw. nobody was ever able to define (so you cannot know if you are doing it right), you cannot play with us. Do I even have to elaborate more, why this stance makes people want to not roleplay? If I am a novice and happen to have a glimpse of this attitude (which is not that hard to get), I prefer to keep to myself. It spares me unpleasant debates.
Finally, we have the people that complain that the Chat is too restrictive around OOC and brackets. No, it is not a new complaint. It has been around ever since players started enforcing it themselves.
Maybe, just maybe this should ring a bell?
This rule is simply stupid. It is cumbersome to use and people mostly use it to be spared from rulenerd tells. By trying to be safe they commonly missaply it. I even saw a player once using them in her characterdescription, which is OOC by definition (unless stating visuals). An OOC free mainchat is an illusion. It won't happen and if you feel your RP experience being tainted by such things, there are better ways to deal with the situation then going OOC yourself and starting to lecture around. Some ideas include:
* Ignore the talk about e.g. "computers". Your character does not know what a "computer" is. Chances are, that you in reallife don't know what quantum physics are. This does not mean, that the persons talking about it don't.
* React to OOC topics with a blank stare. "Pardon me tabei, but this bug, that killed the server, you were talking about. Which type of clacker was that?" (this is called giving a good example and works FAR better then lecturing. Also it satisfies your RP needs, so it's a win-win situation).
* If a person constantly distracts you with OOC, simply use your mutelist. Chances are, that s/he'll never say something you are intrested in at all. This will keep your mainchat far cleaner then bracketed OOC talk.
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tl, dr
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Irgendwer, your advice is noted.
It is also subjective.
By now I know that to change anything is to incur complaints.
If you feel talked down to, comfort yourself with the notion that we may have been talking to people less intelligent.
The OOC brackets rule has been here as long as I have.
I am sure that we will reach a better solution in some future iteration of the game.
Until this solution arises, the tutorial will continue to undergo constant revision as it is now.
Relax, we have heard you.
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tl, dr
Ahh! "Tough luck, download Runescape!" I wondered what that meant....
Do I win the ring of the plesiosaur now?
More seriously, Irgy is right there are people who take this way too seriously and they act as a drag on the more casual players. Their ardor is admirable but can be misplaced sometimes. Now that we have exhausted things to say about the parlor elephant, let us just move on. I am certain there is a brontosaurus hiding behind it, if only we look.
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What makes me not want to RP?
1. People running around all the time. It seems that a lot of people have forgotten how to walk.
2. People running around with drawn weapons all the time. This ist most annoying if done in cities and building.
3. People standing in a kitchen cooking or baking with their full armour on, cooking spoon in one hand and the sword in the other.
Sorry, but these kind of things truely kill a lot of the ambiance for me.
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The standing/running everywhere and for everything with drawn weapons is indeed annoying.. but
People are also cooking with their weapons? ;D *imagines using serious weapons as knifes etc. while cooking and has to laugh* If those people would react to rps it would be funny, but I fear just those woudn't be responsive... a shame :D
*thinking about a dwarf who hacks herbs with a big[tm] axe*
Sen
[EDIT] This explains the armor....
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It takes approximately an extra second to add brackets to something you are typing. The use of them makes chat channels more understandable to all. It is politeness to use them in PS. To not use them, or to complain about them, is counter-productive. There is no reward for complaining about this "rule", but you will integrate faster into the community if you use them. Big deal, use the brackets.
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The one thing that really keeps me away from RPing or PS in general is that the community seems to have a mySpace-ish over-estimation of their online presence (Characters in this case...). Everyone's taking it too damn serious. I mean seriously, is it so terrible when another character has a problem with your character that you oughta have a personal problem with that character's player?
...
Why am I even posting this...
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Actually Cyl, thanks for bringing that up. I didn't have that in my first post in this thread. When people start bringing their personal issues in RL that have nothing to do with the game or their character it can get very irritating. Or as Cyl pointed out when a player decides to take it personal when your character doesn't want to get along with theirs. I have literally logged out of the game in frustration because of this.
For example, when I came back after a long break I knew there would be alot of hellos in my /tells. I knew that I had alot of catching up to do with some players I hadn't spoken to in awhile. I was prepared for this and kind of stood off to the side to answer these /tells. What I wasn't expecting was a player who was very over dramatic about personal issues with him and another player but it didn't end there. In a matter of one half hour (this was all I could stomach) he managed to pour his life story out to me, and all the information he could about other players. I never once asked him to do this and I actually politely told him that I would prefer to RP while I am in game and if he still needed to talk I would be willing to after I played. This only got him upset with me. He started accusing me of not caring and being a fake friend. (I barely new this guy, I only knew his character) When I tried to tell him that I came to play this game to get away from the real world and just enjoy some me time, not to deal with other peoples RL issues he began to freak out in public. This forced me to log out. Yes, I know their are GM's that can deal with these issues. I didn't want to bother them with this minor issue, they have waaaaay better things to do. Besides it was kind of embarrassing and I didn't want to spend hours trying to work out the issue with this player. I mean why should I? I am not the one with emotional issues.
These kind off "emotional" issues just make me not want to Rp. I wish people would understand the differences between character (IC) and themselves (OOC).
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/me shugs.
In that case, I am proud to be called one of your 'SPURs', though I assure you that it is others who have named me an 'Uber roleplayer', not myself. The [brackets] and naming rules (I see them as similar rules) are there to keep PlaneShift from becoming WoW, RS, or MSN, and they are not going anywhere. If a person wants to use Planeshift as a real life chatroom then I honestly don't want them here, as that is one of the things that makes me want to stop roleplaying. Call it elitist or whatever, but PlaneShift IS a step above all other MMOs when it comes to roleplaying. Our rules are the reason.
Time for a new thread, I think.
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I love to roleplay. I just feel restricted by the settings, but that might be because my char is a criminal :P
My roleplay was more fun when I fought people at plaza and taverns. But I respect the settings and hence don't do it anymore. It is difficult to pick a fight in the 'countryside', because you seldom find a roleplay reason to start troubles (road blocks suck after some time) and also seldom someone who is willing to fight back because of IC reasons (roleplayers stay in town, mainly PLers travel from city to city or mines).
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What makes me not want to RP? People who are bad at it and try to make themselves gods amongst men as soon as they join. THAT bothers me to no end, and is why I quit in the first place. When I came back, I found out that my characters significant other left because I left, and the same old people were god-modding to beat be band, so I left again. I'm back (again), and maybe this time to stay... we'll see.
What makes me want to roleplay? A good, hard story/plot, people who can do a fight without the damnable dueling system (rolling is ftw. Use it =P), people who WORK for their power. A willingness to roleplay WITHOUT having it initiated by someone else. If you have to start roleplay by announcing your characters arrival with fanfare and trumpets, do so! (Anyone remember Nixe being her depressed little self in a corner of the tavern, drinking herself away? Yeah.)
How good at roleplaying am I? I'm not one to judge, but I will leave you with a quote for Noriin... or... That one elf dude who she loved whose name I cannot for the life of me remember "This is Nixe, he's one of the major roleplayers here." Take that as you will =/
P.S.: Nixe is back... Phear me ;D
EDIT: VELH! That's his name (the elf). And BTW PS team. You do a wonderful job on the world, despite its many bugs. Keep it up.
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1. /shout THIS EVENT SUCKS/THIS IS WHY I NEVER DO GM EVENTS/I AM LEAVING!
6. Godmoders.
8. Lack of 'bad' things to do as a nasty character.
9. Lack of consequences for a nasty character.
I think 1. and 6. annoy everyone. 8. and 9. are related. You can start troubles everywhere anytime, but once you did it, it is difficult to roleplay the consequences because there is no Vigesemi who actually does a trial. So you either ignore the consequences, or you don't do bad things, or you are criminal, police, judge and jury in one person and arrest yourself, judge yourself and punish yourself.
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I love to roleplay. I just feel restricted by the settings, but that might be because my char is a criminal :P
My roleplay was more fun when I fought people at plaza and taverns. But I respect the settings and hence don't do it anymore. It is difficult to pick a fight in the 'countryside', because you seldom find a roleplay reason to start troubles (road blocks suck after some time) and also seldom someone who is willing to fight back because of IC reasons (roleplayers stay in town, mainly PLers travel from city to city or mines).
'scuse me. RPers do travel from town to town. That's how i met with one of your road blocks, who tried to raid me and failed. What a pity.
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#1 Being thrown into some overly complex far-fetched plot, with no real connection to my character.
#2 Lost friends
#3 Wipes are very discouraging :( It took me many months to log back in after the last wipe.
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Orgonwukh, get it right, it is NOT the settings that make your lifestyle choice hard, it is the lack of mechanics features to provide you the chance to use skills and abilities you think we should permit.
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Maybe you are right, Xillix. Because I don't get you still. What mechanics would help me roleplaying an evil char?
If pickpocketing will be implemented and a theft will be detected, will Jefecra come and arrest me, put the person into jail and later bring them to a trial?
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In the perfect system, yes, that would be possible. Sans the trial, of course. :)
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I think the problem is lack of an official definition of roleplay.
I believe the split here is that between those who roleplay as if it were based on the real world, ie with an effiecient justice system punishments for those who are violent to others, and no names floating above their heads, etc, and those who roleplay as if it was an unknown and unexplored fantasy world, where the rules of how things or people behave, because of magic and/or unknown customs, could be quite a lot of things. The background story gives us very little info on what is actual roleplay.
Those who support the "based on Real World" kind of roleplay could assume that the game mechanics simply are not advanced enough to implement everything. guards are supposed to be more competant, just dont have enough AI to do so. Names do not float on our heads because there is no mention of names in the lore that we find in the background story in libraries and on the site.
On the other hand. those who favor the "unknown and unexplored fantasy world" could assume that we know nothing about the world as a player. The rules are different. What is impossible and what is impossible is completely unknown to us, because the laws that govern the yliakum world are different than those on our world. Maybe there are names floating above peoples heads, due to an ancient spell by a great but slightly deranged mage who could not see very well. maybe there is a history of violence in cities, because guards are incompetant, that influences people to keep their armor and weapons on. We dont know. The lack of mention of these in books or lore does not mean they do not exist.
The conflict between the two groups drives people from both sides away. Those in the "based on Real World" camp see those in the "unknown and unexplored fantasy world" camp as not roleplaying, god-modding, farfetched, or rulebreakers. Those in the "unknown and unexplored fantasy world" camp see the "based on real world" as the rulenerds and "uber role playing" people who cannot expand imagination enough to include other possibilities. both sides tire from the conflict between them and annoyance from not having everyone agree with their idea of roleplaying.
Then theres the newbies....Some may not know they need to until they finish downloading and go in the tutorial. even then, they might miss it. Most dont even look at the forum. Others find it, but are not sure how to roleplay in this setting, or have never roleplayed before. Many newbies are warned by those from the "unknown and unexplored fantasy world" camp to be careful breaking the rules, or else you might get banned, and warned by the "based on real world" to try to roleplay correctly. This causes them to be cautious enough to venture one or two tries at roleplaying, and depending on their results from those one or two tries, either leave or stay. Who they happen to encounter....depends on luck. It used to be that newbies didnt know that planeshift was a focus on roleplaying, but this has mostly been solved now through the tutorial.
On top of this...I've noticed that many people dont bother exploring the entire site or forum. Some may argue that they're just lazy, but its just a fact of mankind. Also what seems to be easy for one person...isnt that easy for someone else. In my case, I read fast, which means that I can get through most of the background story on the site fairly fast and easily. on the other hand, someone else who reads slowly would prefer to find out what the world is like through experience and ingame quests. a third person might decide to simply ask someone to tell them. the information that is available on the site includes many things that are not yet implemented, or are outdated. This could cause some confusion ingame. It focuses on several histories of the races, the government, and the economy. It does include several customs, such as the slow way of travel, the mounts, etc. however, there are very few of those. Those who try to find out through experience find that many of the quests are very hard to figure out, at least for the first couple. If they are lucky enough to find a person to lead them through some rp, their thoughts of the world take after the thoughts of the person who taught them. the same thing happens to those who simply ask someone to tell them some of the storyline. Beyond these three, there are those that simply dont have time or wish to explore through the many pages to try to find a scrap of lore that may help them roleplay.
this is the first, and only one we can really change due to the free and volunteer nature of the project, of the three main complaints I've seen from various reviews of planeshift: 1) siding with either one or the other side of roleplaying, or not knowing how to roleplay at all, and the feeling of unwelcomeness from the groups you *arent* in, 2) too undeveloped and too many bugs, and 3) it doesnt change fast enough.
Now, enough about this problem, some of my ideas on how to solve it.
First of all, the rules should be made plain. instead of being a subcategory called policies hidden under support, or a sticky in the forum, it should be given a category of its own on the main site. This makes it easier to see at first glance at the site, and its certainly important enough to deserve its own category. Perhaps rename it rules, to make it more clear? Or maybe placing a link on the main page(or download page) in big red text "READ THIS FIRST" (just kidding about the red...prolly look horrible)
GMs should openly define what kind of world Yliakum is. what stuff should be considered unimplemented or game mechanics only, and what stuff should be considered as a natural part of the world. The current system of Q&A is pretty good, but two main drawbacks is the location and unsearchablity. Obviously, it would be hard to list every custom or law (scientific) of yliakum, but the major ones, and maybe those already answered in Q&A should be listed as a base to build on. I'm thinking of those "frequently asked questions" system that some sites implement, with a search box and categories. The search box would make it much easier for those with less time to find a certain question or check if it has already been asked, and categories would help those who have time to browse through. This area should be updated every time there is an update due to new things being implemented or new events, or at least have a "report outdated material" option. There should also be an easy way to submit questions. example of what I mean: http://rosettastone.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/rosettastone.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php
This way, when there is a conflict about whether something is roleplaying or not, people can just refer someone to the actual GM answer.
In the tutorial, there should be references to where people can find information, such as an url to the ^^^ page, or even better, a direct link to it. they could also direct people to the library.
in the tutorial, it should be mentioned that many of the quests and other features are not yet implemented or finished, and to "please bear with us as we try to improve them. Remember that you are also a game tester, in addition to a player, and that any and all reports will help improve the game" or something like that
And, last but probably the most important, the people in the different groups should try to understand each other more. Less focus should be placed on whether the other person is role playing or not, and more focus should be placed on how someone reacts to the situtation. OoC things can be answered ICly as many people have said before. In my opinion, a little relaxing of the rules and less jumping on people because of them can encourage experimenting. perhaps place an OoC area somewhere, that both newbies and oldbies can go to try out rps and see how people react to them? Also, people should spread encouragement for experimentation in game, in order to counteract the warnings about being careful to always roleplay.
whoa...I think I just wrote an essay...o well....
any thoughts? disagreements? support? (support would be nice xD)
sorry if any of these are already implemented and I missed them....just let me know.
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- A severe lack of key settings info on major factions, especially prior to character creation.
- A severely outdated and infrequently updated website with contradictory settings and a heavy reliance on forums to get the necessary info.
- A severe lack of visual character customization to get away from the "clone" look.
- A severe lack of fluid and fast mouselook control in Windows PS client.
- An increasing number of severe memory leaks in areas such as Bronze Doors and Gugrontid.
- Graphics quality not matching the system requirements.
- A mostly deserted server (a very low server population).
- A severe lack of listening to player feedback in the beta stages of the game on things that do not require paid developers (ie licensing, quest system, maps, mini-maps, game mechanics, combat system, magic system, spoilers etc).
- A major lack of professionalism and maturity in some staff members' public involvement.
- A lack of any new developers joining the team (probably because of the licensing issues and overall unprofessional atmosphere).
- An apparent general lack of improvement over the years of development.
etc
This is more of a "why this game isn't enjoyable overall", rather than just RP, and would also apply as an answer to the "Bored" thread.
Doesn't make me want to stop RP'ing in general but the RP'ing is much more interesting, rewarding and encouraging in some other MMORPGs. The experience in PS has been pretty boring by comparison so far.
Maybe a bit harsh but remember, you asked. :)
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any thoughts? disagreements? support? (support would be nice xD)
I support you, Theirah :D
And I agree, the flow of information is not very good. I miss some stuff abou the laws in the player guide (yeah, I know, the book of laws and the guards tell us to be peaceful in Hydlaa, but that does not prevent a lot of players to act OOCly by duelling inside city walls). It should not be the player's task to teach that to new players. They should know it from the player guide or from the tutorial. By the way, I think a lot of the NPCs' utterances in the tutorial should put into brackets to make the distinction IC/OOC clear from the beginning.
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- A severe lack of fluid and fast mouselook control in Windows PS client.
- An increasing number of severe memory leaks in areas such as Bronze Doors and Gugrontid.
- Graphics quality not matching the system requirements.
- A lack of any new developers joining the team (probably because of the licensing issues and overall unprofessional atmosphere).
some of the above will be fixed in the next release, also how do you know there are so few devs joining the team. those joining as prospects do a lot of work and it takes time to be officially added to the team. There are i would take a guess atleast 20 prospects to the dev team right now, if not more. They are all working very hard to make this game better.
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What makes me not want to RP? People who are bad at it and try to make themselves gods amongst men as soon as they join. THAT bothers me to no end, and is why I quit in the first place. When I came back, I found out that my characters significant other left because I left, and the same old people were god-modding to beat be band, so I left again. I'm back (again), and maybe this time to stay... we'll see.
What makes me want to roleplay? A good, hard story/plot, people who can do a fight without the damnable dueling system (rolling is ftw. Use it =P), people who WORK for their power. A willingness to roleplay WITHOUT having it initiated by someone else. If you have to start roleplay by announcing your characters arrival with fanfare and trumpets, do so! (Anyone remember Nixe being her depressed little self in a corner of the tavern, drinking herself away? Yeah.)
How good at roleplaying am I? I'm not one to judge, but I will leave you with a quote for Noriin... or... That one elf dude who she loved whose name I cannot for the life of me remember "This is Nixe, he's one of the major roleplayers here." Take that as you will =/
P.S.: Nixe is back... Phear me ;D
EDIT: VELH! That's his name (the elf). And BTW PS team. You do a wonderful job on the world, despite its many bugs. Keep it up.
hey, i just wanted to say im sorry your significant other left. i realise s/he didn't leave you, per say, but still. (or maybe you were just together for rp purposes)