PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Eliseth on April 12, 2008, 11:02:04 am
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For years there has been the on-going debate of RP vs game mechanics or leveling. It's become clear to me that a lot of you do not know how to use the one aspect without compromising the other. Let's take a quick look at how most people would play planeshift.
A new player creates a character, explores a bit, sees high level characters running about and says "I wish I was that good at fighting" and promptly goes of to level their skills. But after being in the game for a while, they begin to find RPing to be a little fun, so they start roleplaying, they enjoy it a lot, start neglecting their leveling and eventually become frustrated because they want to level their character but if they do they don't have time to roleplay. Eventually they decide to do one or the other, but get bored with the monotony of grinding or with the same old "Greetings, lovely day we're having" type RPs and stop playing altogether. (Note: I'm not saying this how we all play, some of us never PL, some of us never RP, and some of us never get bored with either ;) )
Now lets look at some facts. Roleplaying is, in essence, living your characters life. Leveling is increasing your character skills. But here's where the trouble lies, because the speed at which time runs when RPing is a lot slower than when we level. Let me explain. If you think about real life, we as human being also would like to increase our skills, but we also have to live life while doing that, and that is why it takes most our lives to master our skills, and sometimes we never even get to that point. Now you come to planeshift, which is a roleplaying game, which means, as I said, you live your characters life. You want to increase you characters skills, but now instead of living life as you do that, you try to level your skills all at once in the shortest space of time. I mean if you're roleplaying an 18 years old, she will certainly take a lot longer to master sword fighting, for example, than a couple of months.
This is why we can't have a balance of leveling and rping, because both aspects run at completely different speeds of time, if you know I mean. So, how should we play planeshift? Bare in mind, this is my opinion, which is completely theoretical, because I can't see people doing it this way on a scale that would make it realistic. What you should do, is roleplay as normal. Now lets say for example you wanted to become a mage, if you were really learning those skills it would take years, so don't rush your leveling, it's really not necessary. Now I'm not saying that it must also take years, that would be silly, but it certainly doesn't have to take a couple of months. I've been playing for two years and my characters have still not leveled anywhere close to what others have, yet I'm still enjoying and playing both aspects of the game, when my character has time to level, she will level, if she has a family crisis, she'll deal with that first, if there's a friend in need, she'll cancel her training to help.
The problem is that most players who start planeshift are used to normal pvp mmorpgs, in which it is quite normal and indeed necessary to max your character quickly so that you can actually compete with other players. PlaneShift is a completely different type of game, it is really not necessary to level your skills as quickly. Sure it's impressive to take on ulbers and pwn other players in a duel, but its even more impressive if you have a realistic, unique and interesting character with an equally unique roleplaying style. Your skills make a part of your character, and only a part. In this game your character's personality and history make up an even bigger part, and which will determine whether or not your character is fun to roleplay with.
This is completely open to discussion though, since everyone I'm sure will have an opinion about it. Please, tell me what you think, maybe tell us your way of balancing the two aspects of the game.
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Leveling and RPing should not be regarded as two different aspects of the game. RPing means that everything a character does is in character. Extensive training sessions may perfectly be part of that. I advocate the no numbers concept (http://mu.ranter.net/theory/general.html#nonumbers). Hide all skill levels from the players, so the game is no fun anymore for players who don't understand the difference between IC and OOC (= power levelers).
Edit: about the time element: I think its best to take the skill levels serious, not how long you've been around. Not taking the game mechanics seriously can ruin RP. What if someone with the status of a master fighter gets killed by a clacker, how should we act?
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I agree with Eliseth. But it is also truth that leveling is supposed to be part of RPing.... except... the way it is done and mechanically performed by players, makes them to do that and not speak a word. The moment you start writing a sentence to start some actual RPing with other people around, that moment you stop leveling up, so at this stage of PS with how levelling is done, you don't really RP.
While i could RP (interacting with other people/ strting some conversation, which possibly lead to some adventure or simply something interesting while digging) while mining, I find it barely possible while fighting.
- Spawning is OOC
- taking swords of your 100 killed opponents a hour
- they always die without any suprise or consequence
- they always coming back
- merchants always buying your loot like they never had enough
and so on.
There is the problem that actual RPing/interacting with other people is indeed taking more time than mechanical leveling up, making money without saying a word to anyone at all. IMO if game mechnics slow down the leveling and money making in future, people will find more time to interact with other people.
But then some players will complain than skilling is so slow and they are nowhere near being a good fighter/mage/or someone and they need to, because they just created that character, who is supposed to be superior gladiator...
But there is that advice. leveling is happening by the way, there is no rush, there will be always better people than you and it needs to take time before you will be like them, because they did it before too. Heroes don't appear from nowhere.
Some people don't want to wait, including some good RPers, but because of that devs make the combat training the way it is, mostly OOC, without a stop from a talk, mechanical. It shouldn't be.
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I agree 100% with Hitancrias on this one. Leveling a character can and should be worked into your overall RP; for instance, I grind Kaerli because she ICly grinds herself (seriously), yet that is only one half of her training. The other half is expressed ICly as sparring matches and isn't (wholly) representable in game mechs, but still contributes heavily to her training.
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To be short, the problem is called NPC. Not the combatable ones, but those NPCs that buy loot and train. Interaction with them in the process of selling or training does not involve any roleplay, and never will. I've stopped trading with NPCs, especially since the price was based upon stats. If I want to get rid of things, they go into the forge. Training with NPCs is far too mind numbing and not worth my time. I need to camp thousands of mobs to get the PPs, then venture to a NPC, make him richer than the octarchy, get rid of my PPs. Afterwards I'd need to tape down my short cut casting button to level up my Azure Way skill, for example.
I've thought about this quite a while, and came up with an idea. Everything needed for player training is already there.
1. /setskill
2. A time delay.
First of all, the /setskill command would be modified a bit into a /train command. This grant the target a +1 in a certain skill, and if afterward both the trainer and pupil get a time delay, which would increase in relation to the pupil's skill levelm for training, it can't be abused. Of course, new players would be tempted to simply get a /train every time the timer expires, but this system would give roleplayers an alternative. Powerlevellers have always been there, and if they'd powerlevel with this system, I'd care the same as if they powerlevel with the old one.
For example, Donari got fighting lessons by Kaerli (Yes, Donari has been wielding a sword.). The huge amount of tactical knowledge she gained through that is worth nothing. She can't even fight better according to the game mechanics. If Kaerli had training abilities, she could simply have typed /train Donari, and it'd have had some effect.
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Leveling and RPing should not be regarded as two different aspects of the game. RPing means that everything a character does is in character. Extensive training sessions may perfectly be part of that.
Thats just it, it shouldn't be two separate aspects, but the fact of the matter is that they are. I think Donari's idea will solve this whole issue once and for all. RP is about interacting with the ps world, and it doesn't matter how many phrases we get the NPCs to respond to, we'll never really be able to interact with them and therefore leveling will always be separate from RPing. All I'm giving is a suggestion on how to balance the aspects out until a better system is developed.
I advocate the no numbers concept (http://mu.ranter.net/theory/general.html#nonumbers). Hide all skill levels from the players, so the game is no fun anymore for players who don't understand the difference between IC and OOC (= power levelers).
This type of system will only make players frustrated, what we need to do is discover why players want to increase their numbers so badly, and then remove that reason. I believe the reason is as simple as people just wanting to be better than other people, a flaw which is all too common in human beings, and a flaw which will be around for quite a few hundred years to come. This is why I like Donari's idea so much, because PLing on the system he suggests would take longer than any PLer would be willing to wait. It will roleplayers a chance to keep up with the levelers while still getting in plenty of RP time and it will, in essence, merge leveling and rp.
Edit: about the time element: I think its best to take the skill levels serious, not how long you've been around. Not taking the game mechanics seriously can ruin RP. What if someone with the status of a master fighter gets killed by a clacker, how should we act?
I didn't say we shouldn't take it seriously, I just said we shouldn't rush it. And as Niko said, heros don't just come from no where, if a player wants to have superior skill, he/she must work for it.
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Well, such a radical system change would necessarily require a complete character wipe otherwise those fully trained characters could very well just train their alts interminably and new players would get no training at all except out of charity and/or servitude. Then when it is just the blind leading the halt nobody could train because there would be nobody that could train them. In the first case scenario where no wipe occurs how would the masters ever learn any new techniques in their mastery, who would teach them? Sounds like it needs more thought.
I much prefer my idea in a previous thread here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32147.msg369331#msg369331) and think it would be more effective. It glosses over the grind and maximizes opportunities for role play. We are likely to end up with something that looks like what we have though.
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You can reward a high skill level, as known as "Exclusive apprenticeship to a master craftsman", to someone who does well in a GM event. And I mean really well, not just standing around.
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Well that might be somewhat helpful, but I have to say that in the two years I've been around I have yet to receive any reward for participating in GM events and have not been around when one was happening, as far as I know, for at least eight months. Most of the ones I did come across were pretty laggy and chaotic. I would hate to rely on such a mechanism and it seems to me to be one that reinforces the server elite. Supposing this was in effect how could someone with a completely obnoxious character advance? They would be unlikely to be rewarded for an event or find someone willing to train them. Are people not allowed to be anti-social?
If the npcs are not needed for implementing the game mechanics they are not needed at all. Why should they give out quests? Why should they give out information? You are calling for their complete removal are you not?
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Every character should be able to train himself by doing, though in that case he would need to do all the theory by himself, which would slow him down. Do you think it is realistic that shady and anti social characters can train with NPCs?
NPCs are not needed, they make things easier, game mechanics wise. But sometimes this relief of burden for the players means a damage to roleplay.
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The idea of players training other players I've always liked.
However, and at least in the state the game is now at, I don't think that pondering about removing NPCs completely is something that would work.
What's good of the NPCs is that they are always there for you to interact with. Players on the other hand will get busy in RL and may be missing for a few days, weeks or even quit the game for whatever reason. What happens when there is nobody online that can do what you need then?
At some points of the day, the average player count is below 60 and punishing the ones who play then by giving them less chances doesn't sound fair to me.
Given that the player count may raise eventually, then removing or making NPCs less relevant (can't imagine devs are about to remove quests after all the time put into them) may be something to discuss about.
EDIT: Also, any NPC spreads quite a lot of information about the game's setting. Wouldn't like to loose that either.
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Given that the player count may raise eventually, then removing or making NPCs less relevant (can't imagine devs are about to remove quests after all the time put into them) may be something to discuss about.
NPCs can just not /train at all but still request help :)
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Here is one flaw in player training. It waaaaay to fast way of training.
We got used through single player games, that you develop your character through doing certain actions along your journey.
However in multiplayer very many people goal is just to train, it is not the journey. The journey is hapening along the way of training, if at all.
So, even though training through killing spawning opponents is a little more enjoying from game mechanics perspective, everyone would now train sparring with another player.
Well, not telling about other issues and possible solutios for them i will give a solution for this one.
If allow the sparring, limit it. Limit it a lot. For instance you can train with one person only a little after that little, you gain nothing. You have to find another partner and then another if you wish to continue.
But, you can train with the same people later on, if their skill change noticerably, and possibly give a timeout of 1 week, after which the two people may again train for that "little"
Because otherwise training will happen in a blink of an eye.
It is also good to develop the new trainin system together with the one, which come in place of PPs based system, which we have now and which i'm sure would laugh at us if it could.
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@donari
I do not think there is anything remotely realistic about a fantasy massively multiplayer online role playing game. Trying to squeeze one into such restrictive constraints seems rather pointless. Arguing that the npcs are unrealistic is like arguing whether a pink elephant is hot pink or blush colored. Like it or not some game conventions in a genre come about because nobody can figure out how to make better mechanisms work economically. It is not for lack of trying, that is just the way it is.
If any character can train by doing then every character should train by doing, there should be only one mechanism and not one for popular people and one for everyone else. Having npc trainers is a singular method and I think that is good. I would appreciate hearing what you thought of the system I proposed although it seems you didn't bother to look at it. It would seem to meet your concerns although it would still require a minimum of interaction with npc trainers.
I do not like the idea of player training as it is inherently discriminatory.
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Player training is optional, as a replacement for NPC training. Eventually one should be able to train by himself, by simply doing an action over and over. Furthermore, I'd appreciate a minimum amount of realism, as that is what I expect of a roleplay game. If I wouldn't care about realism, I'd go and play WoW.
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So, even though training through killing spawning opponents is a little more enjoying from game mechanics perspective, everyone would now train sparring with another player.
For you maybe, for roleplayers it is without content and makes often no sense at all. We would much rather train with other people and interact with them and in my eyes it doesn't go any faster. Whether you fight with an NPC or a player, you still fight and the time spent waiting for respawns is probably a lot less than the time spent waiting for health recovery.
Heck if I got a choice I'd remove all NPC grinding or seriously downgrade it and make sparring the main form of training. You don't learn much when you're risking your life in a dangerous fight but you learn all the more when you're practicing with likeminded people.
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For you maybe, for roleplayers it is without content..
That's why i wrote "from game mechanics perspective" ? ;)
You missed my point and put me outside roleplayer group. think about it :s A little less aggression please, reminds me of myself when I was a lot more into playing before, but i think the so wanted game mechanics just wasn't coming and killed most of the will to play.
First, current PP system is so flawed, that adding anything without remaking it will have flaws too.
Few little needed tweaks about ability to defend yourself, near ability to attack more effectively( as is now) and the HP regeneration problem disappears.
Now i don't know if you agree with the rest of my post or not. By one of the points is to avoid alienization of people who want to train along their journey, like me. Because the great majority of people will train using new method, putting all the others inferrior, unable to compete.
NPC training can be IC. NPCs are IC part of the world. But not with the system we have now.
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So, even though training through killing spawning opponents is a little more enjoying from game mechanics perspective, everyone would now train sparring with another player.
For you maybe, for roleplayers it is without content and makes often no sense at all. We would much rather train with other people and interact with them and in my eyes it doesn't go any faster. Whether you fight with an NPC or a player, you still fight and the time spent waiting for respawns is probably a lot less than the time spent waiting for health recovery.
Heck if I got a choice I'd remove all NPC grinding or seriously downgrade it and make sparring the main form of training. You don't learn much when you're risking your life in a dangerous fight but you learn all the more when you're practicing with likeminded people.
I disagree with this. It would be very cool if everyone could train in such a fashion, but then everywhere you go, you see people beating on each other. How would the guards feel about this? How would they know sparring from illegal combat? It is a good idea, but there are a lot of holes...
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Sparring does not train you to survive, there is a basic difference between fighting someone out to kill you and someone who is holding back. I admit though that the current system of "the coup de grace" blurs the distinction. There is also a big difference between fighting a mob and fighting a player and inter-player training teaches you "twitchy combat" which, from what I understand, renders the skill system null and void. Perhaps that is a misapprehension on my part as I do not engage in pvp and it has changed since I paid it much attention.
I do wonder how much training your use of the controls has to do with role play and how you can realistically compensate for out of context considerations such as manual dexterity, network lag and whatever. Does a virtuoso pianist have an advantage over a three fingered brick layer? If their character's abilities are identical will their ability to play them match? Maybe we should all become trickle heads, jack the interface directly into our brains and operate at the speed of thought, then we can engage in pure role play.
P.S. hyperbole alert, it is no crime!
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I thought we were talking about the ability to train weapon and armor skills by 'sparring' with people, not PvP training? PvP combat has nothing to do with this, people can already train that now that they don't kill eachother automatically anymore and even before they trained in the Death Realm.
As for fighting everywhere, that's illegal .. even if it is for training. Drawing a weapon inside the city for any other reason than self defense is punishable by the guards. So you can only train outside the city limits or in the Arena, without being arrested.
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That is just it, though, if you have people training people by sparring it is exactly the same as PVP training or are you just going to stand still and whack each other to get your practice instead of maneuvering about for advantage? How is that role play and what does it teach?
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Do you honestly think NPCs are going to 'stand there and take it' forever? No. Eventually, they will run at you. They will dodge. They will try to circle and gain the advantage. They will gang up on you. They will retreat and hide while they heal. Sound familiar? Then training against other players does not sound like such a bad idea after all.
Using NPCs that are trying to kill you to train on is ridiculous on a massive scale in the first place. How many cops do you know that train solely by running out and catching bad guys? How many Boxers get all their experience and training only in matches? How many soldiers are tossed out on the field and told to learn how to fight as they go? How many hunters learn how to shoot by ONLY aiming at things that are trying to kill them? Sure, it can be done, but it is the bass ackwards way to go about it.
The training in ALL RPGs, MMOs or not, is stupid. Going out and fighting is not training. It is the usage of the skills you learned while training in a relatively safe area. It adds to your knowledge, but the bulk of that is learned elsewhere. Such as sparing. Despite what games teach you these days, you can become and expert at killing things -without ever- killing a single thing. Games do not allow for this path. Having to kill things to get good at fighting severely restricts roles you can play. You want to play a fighter, hunter, soldier or gladiator? The only way to do so is to play a bloodthirsty hunter or killer that slays countless foes for profit. I refuse to play that role.
Now, -honing- your skills is another story all together, and only happens out in the field. Then, my friends, mobs beware.
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Yanno, when I'm at my Karate training most of the time we really do just stand there and whack eachother to practice. Sometimes we don't and we move around, dodge and all. So how's that roleplay you ask? Well it's sure as heck more realistic than duking it out with something that mechanically wants to kill me over and over unless I kill it.
Moon is right, how can you be a honorable hero .. if you go to the arena every day, draw your sword and start hacking at some gladiators or tefusangs that didn't even look at you wrong?
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No, I do not expect the npcs are always going to be so lame but neither do I expect them to ever be like players. I expect that at one point or another they will become exceptionally powerful due to balancing issues and that that will pass too. I expect that once you have player training it will be massively abused until the proper balance is achieved, just the same as so many other things.
I do not know any cops but I expect that most of the real training they get is before they are put on the street and yes they do learn on the job. They may practice their shooting on the range because they do not have enough excuse to keep up their proficiency on the job. Other aspects are more likely to be practiced in the course of their duties.
Soldier are commonly sent out to die on the job with minimal training, there is a world of difference between war games and actual combat. You cannot compare the amount of training of career soldiers with that of recruits. The best training is always real experience.
I do not agree that you can become an expert at killing things without killing anything certainly not killing people. It may be possible for some people but there is a psychological barrier that must be crossed. Sure I can kill a bug, a fish, rodent or reptile but could I kill a man? I don't want to know. Sparring can only teach you so much, real combat separates the expert from the dead.
Way back in the Jurrasic era when I was taking Judo, the first quarter of the lesson was warm up, the second was drill, the third was a real match for how many pairs time would allow and the last quarter was drill/warmdown. Then from time to time there were tournaments with real matches with unfamiliar opponents. Of course nobody was learning to kill but we were learning to fight.
Ah! Zan you want to be an Honorable Hero! But nobody is perfect and who says you have to go to the arena, you can hunt ulbernauts and those dino-thingies in the cave or whatever else, there are plenty of malevolent critters in the countryside. Anyway the intelligent arena dwellers ought to be ruled by the pvp mechanism anyway. That does not have much to do with training per se, although they do get used for that.
Oh and how can you be an honorable hero if you go around hacking on people who look at you funny? maybe they are just funny looking and cannot help it. If you want realistic role play try to aim for a realistic character. Cookie cutter "good guys and bad guys" just don't seem quite right.
Anyway I am against player training as I was against the introduction system, whatever the developers decide is fine with me. Buddy wanted me to go back to a T4C server he found but that is so '90s. It was kind of fun though.
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Can't you all have a little more imagination?
While Prolix was fully right in his latest post, before he said there can be only one way of training, insisting that only NPCs can train us and because of that there may not be training beetwen players.
While there has to be training beetwen players, sparring and simple teaching of technique, accuracy training by shoting into objects, while here was pointing out this has to have limits as described, so you won't have people who come online only for doing this and after 3 days they are all maxed out. A little imagination there, pshh
All the system has to change, therefore basing ideas on the current system is pointless, it has to be based on some principles, which won't change. And if the system won't change, it is pointless to suggest changes anyway, coz no matter what you suggest, it will be ooc in the nutshell.
training before real action is important, but as pointed out, the really good soldiers are those who got their experience in action.
If someone needs to be a hero in yliakum, he can go killing rogues, go fighting to stone labiryinths. Because Yliakum is in a state of constant danger/war with what is coming out of the labitynths, people can go there to train themselves to master the art of fighting.
But everyone go to area, because of al the reasons it is the fastest place to train! - in a fixed system this has to change, so be open minded :x
And while training on real opponents/enemies should be faster way of training than sparring, it should hell be more dangerous! As stated, the AI will be better and balancing will make everything harder, but also more challanging.
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I have a feeling the two sides are completely talking past eachother here so I'm folding out. I said what I wanted to, ball's in the Dev's court anyway.
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Well, maybe you are not listening. Point-counterpoint is not for everyone. In some ways these discussions are not even for the participants but rather for the developers benefit. They may not always comment always but I think they do try to pay attention to what is said.
Anyway I suppose this musical interlude (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYbUCvz1LYE) may calm things down while making a point.
Same as it ever was.
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/me hands Zan a Dev application.
Go ahead. Take the ball.
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Well...we should be able to spar NPCs, shouldn't we? It makes no sense at all that we can't!
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As I was saying the npcs in the arena ought to be under the pvp rules but I will suggest this modification to its effect in relation to them: they should require the killing blow to finish them off which would have negative consequences if used. They should not require a /challenge either to attack or be attacked. They should not be lootable even if you do kill them. Then they would be more like sparring partners. Perhaps the pvp room would be as it already is.
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/me thanks UtM for the application.
I've considered playing on the team for a long time but decided I could probably do just a much from the tribunes than I would be able to do on the field.
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You think so? Well, your sword isn't even bloody.
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If you had seen the things I have seen, and helped create the things I have helped create, then you might change your mind. Being a prospect Dev is freaking awesome!
We have been allowed to have a very large hand in shaping the history, culture, and current events of the game in a way that players never could. Remember the Ethos, Zan? Well, I am living it now. Only this time, it makes a difference.
Join with us! There is yet much culture, history, and stories to create! Help bring the game to life.
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After partially reading this thread and a few others, I should warn you: I'm not as good or experienced as most of you but I still consider myself as a typical PS player.
I think that the approach when altering mechanics to favor RP is wrong. IMO (and pls. correct me if i'm mistaken) leaving less 'mechanical' things to do or extending the time it takes to do something with the expectation of any RP improvement is partially decreasing RPing possibilities. RP is like love.. it happens when it does: it cannot be forced.
This is opposite to the chances of interaction that physical actions lead to. Roleplaying is having less room to grow from actions and excessive rooting from simple words. Long tasks consume too much time for me to RP and in my experience, the things I can do that may lead to interesting conversations IG are less these days.
When I created this char (when I started playing PS), I allways thought that there are two main ways to move with many derivations but essentially: good or evil. Almost all RP situations have to deal with this: To have a counterpart, an opponent(s).
People are affraid of bad things happening to their chars actionwise (getting robbed, killed, etc..) and many have great ideas of how the system can be twisted to 'protect' their interests whichever those be. But then, the counterpart is lost, for me, the fun is lost (actionwise).
I would like for things (good and bad) happen to everyone. I would say that maybe if our inventory would have 'lockable' items, it may solve the worries of losing our beloved belongings. From actions, great RPing I've seen evolve.. but from simple words, a few.
How nice it is to chase the opponent, to confront him/her, to have a true interaction, engage in personal vendettas, testing one's limits and revising what to improve in order to achieve a goal (whichever it is). Nowdays there are fewer 'physical' situations to feed RP.
PS: Please be gentle :'(
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i vote for player training, i know that planeshift is a 'classless' game. but people still specialise, and really, even though its not set, your a miner, a fighter, a mage, or you just rp or whatever. what you really want from these specializations is to make money, and advance yourself. whats to say a trainer cant charge for their services? they become a proffessional trainer. that adds another possible niche specialisation for us, and eventually after more mechanics are implemented, there is no such thing as niches, because there are many pheasible methods of developing your character both rp and mechanically.
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Yep, I agree, a training/teaching skill would be good. It takes knowledge in the skill and a trained teaching level to be able to train someone effectively. Not sure the trainer actually has to be level 50 in swords though because some of the best pitching coaches can't throw a 92 slider on the outside corner, but they can sure teach someone with the talent how to do it. And then again, someone that has a .330 career batting average, won't be able to teach everyone to be able to hit .330. So for sparring, you can only learn so much wacking each other on the head, but you need an effective teacher around to really improve the skill to a meaningful level. And yep, they should be able to charge or barter for it. Going to need a few super computers to be able to put this thing together, anyone have any lying around... Can't wait for the next tech boom...
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Wow. This is a game, right? If you don't want game mechanics to get in the way of your roleplaying, then why put all this effort into building a world? Go straight to fan fiction or chat rooms. You'll role play a million times better if you remove all the game play problems you say get in the way of true role playing, and your imagination does it all so much better.
But since you are building a full game environment to RP in, why the heck would you limit your character development? One aspect of RP'ing in a fantasy world is to fight against evil, or be an evil villain if that's what you like. For me, RP'ing has always revolved around a story. Something is happening in the world. It needs to be addressed, and that drives the focus of the role playing and the story we want to live in. Without a driving force, RP'ing is just boring "thou's" and "Ye's" or whatever. There is no reason to be a weaponsmith if there is no enemy to fight with. There's no reason to be a better weaponsmith if the world doesn't provide bigger challenges for new and better weapons. There is no reason to build up talents if rat keeping is your goal. We play the game to improve our character. It is up to the game developers, and this is where the whole thing falls apart to me, to provide a driving force to let people grow as characters. Many MMORPG's simply fail at providing that atmosphere where I care about fighting the evil in the world, because as soon as I kill something, it respawns.
The panacea here is a dynamic world. Impossible to do given most resources, and I'm not suggesting that. I like what you have built here, a system that removes leveling and revolves instead around skills. That is the best solution to the whole thing because it makes every skill equal. A simple farmer with high level skill in farming can be just as valuable as a highly skilled warrior with max weapon skills. Once you finish that segment of the game, you should work on things that will enhance RP'ing and give reason for people to build skills in the first place. RP'ing is at it's best when people believe there is a real reason for them to RP, not just to move into a fantasy world that has less excitement than their own real life.
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MustangMR: On another thread, I was addressing the same topic... "Get paid for RP.." If you read a bit of it, you will see that I agree with most of your post here. Yes, the thread heading may have not much to do with it but well.., there it is.
Now, on that thread, the point of my posts was somehow diluted by other's way to 'see' things.
I hope that in this case whoever reads your post here won't be picking the wrong parts of it and derive into a discussion that has nothing to do with the main issue.
Or perhaps a new topic should be placed.
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Sorry if I sidetracked the thread. My post was mainly aimed at the comments in the OP that seemed to me to say that leveling and skills shouldn't be included in the game. I kind of bit when I read the idea that we should just apply to skill up and not have the actual mechanics of it get in the way of RP'ing. I really just wanted to stress that the mechanics should be driven and designed to enhance RP'ing, and not grinding, if such a design is possible. I would love to see the game where being a high level farmer is just as rewarding as being a towering warrior. Not sure how that can be done, but something to think about.
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On the contrary, I agree.. and also believe it's such an important issue that perhaps it needs it's own thread.
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Sorry if I sidetracked the thread. My post was mainly aimed at the comments in the OP that seemed to me to say that leveling and skills shouldn't be included in the game.
If your post was aimed at my comments then you obviously didn't read it my post properly, because no where did I say that there shouldn't be leveling and skills. I simply said that players usually don't know how to roleplay effectively and still have time to level their characters skills, which is why I suggested that people shouldn't try to level their skills as quickly as they do, but rather slow down to the pace of your RPing.
Someone did make a valid point however (sorry can't remember who). If a player wants to create a new character who is supposed to be an elite master of swords, he can't very well do that with his swords level hovering below 5. If this is the case, then there's nothing to be done at this moment in time, you'll just have to sacrifice you RPing for grinding until you're at the level you want. This however, is not something I support. I believe people should work to develop their character properly if they want to RP a high level character.
If you look at the principal behind leveling, you will see why I say this. The whole point of the skills system is for players to develop there characters skills over time. It is therefore impossible for players to start new characters with high skill levels. Since this is first and foremost an RP game (as apposed to a PVP or PVE game), it stands to reason that players were never meant to RP high level characters unless they'd taken the time to develop their character, in both the leveling and RP contexts.
Unfortunately, the current system allows for rapid grinding, which is why I support Donari's idea for player trainers and time delays and such. It would make it so that leveling can not be done without roleplaying, and it would therefore finally merge RPing and leveling so that they are no longer two separate aspects to Planeshift.
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Unfortunately, the current system allows for rapid grinding, which is why I support Donari's idea for player trainers and time delays and such. It would make it so that leveling can not be done without roleplaying, and it would therefore finally merge RPing and leveling so that they are no longer two separate aspects to Planeshift.
The idea is good no doubt. However, I can't agree with that statement.
Giving all players the ability to train other players would probably mean having the same old PLers being the ones ruling the training and making profit from it, just like they usually rule the furnaces, the weapon making.. and everything else related to the game mechanics. I have quite trained my char, I could train other chars.. but I would obviously do it by roleplay and refuse to gather scholars by OOC tells or other means alike. That, as usual, would leave me in disadvantage towards the ones who just don't care, thus I would be getting less students. As usual, probably the RPers who also care would come to me or others who would roleplay it.. but as we know, that's still a minority.
To enhance roleplay by player to player training some other measure should be taken in addition.
I like people supporting their roleplay by stats and skills that can be trained within the game mechanics, but I must as well disagree with the point regarding the character development. I don't see why somebody wouldn't RP an already skilled swordwielder/mage/whatever as long as they have a consistent RP and have taken some time to train their characters. There is no need to have spent years (months, whatever) in-game to have a skilled character. You can have a skilled negotiator/merchant/talker/preacher without having RPed his/her first words when he/she was a baby (just because you can do with your own negotiating/merchantile/talking/preaching skills and call it RP), why can't you have a skilled fighter without having RPed the first time he/she slayed a rat?
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You can do that Noriin, just remember though that people pretend to be something they are not in real life often end up on the wrong side of a set of bars. They are called frauds, charlatans and frequently convicts. If there is no way to tell the difference between someone playing a fraud and a well meaning person playing an advanced character without the benefit of the levels, is there a difference?
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Well, the key for me is the consistency of every character's roleplay, and the feeling of reality they may transmit.
The same way that I refuse to treat somebody like a master of masters just because he's trained every single skill to the max (which shouldn't be possible for a start, imho) when he hasn't bothered to actually play his character at all, I do treat other players who don't like/don't have time to train as skilled <whatever they are> if they have a good background and actions in-game supporting it as well as some convincing roleplay.
Mind you, my char is far more trained than 85% of the people I use to roleplay with. If I decided only stats are meaningful and acted in consequence, thus roleplaying an invincible dagger wielder and black mage.. how many of those people would enjoy playing with me, if any? Also, if I would use pvp-duel to decide the outcome of a struggle or any RP.. would I loose at all.. ever? You've got to make things fun for everybody, sticking to stats just because you can train them and roleplaying them (masters of everything are unrealistic and often annoying) is not always a good thing...
So yes, you can decide yourself when a character is a fraud or not. Spectate, evaluate, and act regarding your thoughts. You can always not get involved with that char's RP and everything will be fine. No need for jails and the likes.. ^_^'