PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Aro on April 25, 2008, 05:29:05 am
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I was wondering about the melee power level... It seems vastly underpowered compared to any other type of attack, even magic. :(
Suno posted about the same question, but I don't see it as much of a bug... Also, it didn't get to much attention, aside from a comment.... :P
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=31840.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=31840.0)
Nice, Izzy. I'm proud. :D
So, is this an actual feature? Or is it something to be worked out? I would greatly appreciate seeing Melee be significantly stronger than it is currently.
As for why it should be increased in power, consider it this way; someone who wants to RP a monk, or any other type of character that would not use weapons normally is faced with this: They either try to kill everything while doing very low damage per strike, even on weaker mobs; or they just drop that whole idea and switch to some 300Q swords, which are so much more powerful, it's not fair to try and compare the two.
But, say we do... I'm at level 24 in swords and have 150 strength, I attack something with a 215Q sword, I do about 100-160 damage. If I use Suno's numbers, at level 30 in melee, with the same stats, I'm hitting something for... 30 damage at best... This seems like a major balance issue, regardless of the fact that melee should be weaker than swords, because of the obvious I-can't-stab-you-with-a-punch thing.
*As a note, I've tested this... The numbers Suno gave are accurate. I'm at level 15 in it, with 150 strength, and I'm hitting for about 15-24 or so a strike.
**Secondary Note: Sorry if this could be considered as technically a duplicate. But I'm just using Suno's thread as an example. I'm requesting that melee be more powerful-or at least more balanced-to make it an acceptable alternative to weapons fighting, I doubt that this is a bug....
Please let me know what you think/are doing about this!
Thank you! :)
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I like it the way it is, it's realistic.
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I like it the way it is, it's realistic.
Skilled melee fighter is able to kill with one hit, or at least put you unconscious... :whistling:
..of course there is some trouble with walking cans (heavy armor). :sweatdrop:
Putting my agreement to Aro's request :)
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Or is it that damage from weapons is overpowered? Should certain races get an advantage in melee, e.g. Enkidukai because they have claws? I'm quite certain that the combat system in Planeshift needs some adjustment to be balanced but it is quite hard to test the fighting system if the NPC client is down so often. :whistling: Sorry, couldn't resist. :oops:
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Doesn't the melee description indicate that there will be melee weapopns in the future?
Melee
Used for: Iron fist, slayer armor, spiked shield, *steel claws*, thorn helm and unarmed combat.
Description: The close combat skill. When no weapons are available, this is your fighting skill.
Advantages: Easy to learn and fast to use.
Disadvantages: Less effective for defense and more *expensive equipment*
The stars are mine, but highlight the suggestion that there is something to come, so is this probably a feature that will be implemented in time. As it is now then how does damage for a lv 15 swordsman with 50Q (or 25Q for that matter) sword compare to a lv 15 melee attack?
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yes, melee is underpowered, but it is because there is no equipment. The same way as skilled martial arts fighter can kill someone with one blow, the same can be said about swords, except with the latter you probably don't need that high skill. But it is not a matter of what weapon can kill in one hit, it would if the oponent was standing still. In a fight, the fighters are moving a lot, dodging and alike and i think the melee master would do much better with some melee type of weapon. It is why melee is underpowered. There are no weapons. Such a weapon is not only about striking, but parrying too. These weapons just have to come.
Ultimately each weapon will have an adge about another, which be worse against different types as stated by the devs long time ago.
I also believe that the fighting sill will be also about defending yourself, so with 50 you wont hit your opponents for 200 anymore if he is same as skilled, but for like 20 - similiar as you were hitting a rat with a mere 5 rank skill ;)
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Skilled martial artists killing someone with one blow only happens in movies. It is not realistic, unless the target is standing still and doesn't bother to defend at all maybe.
Add armor into the equation: even the simplest padded clothing can absorb a punch or kick's impact enough to render it useless. Hardened leather or anything more will prevent any unarmed damage. If melee fighters start using knucklers, studded gloves, etc then we can add in more damage and things like that should be planned.
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Melee should probably be changed to a brawling skill, at any rate, as there are those three unimplemented skills that are supposed to be martial arts. That would make it good for bar fights and the like. In that case it would allow the use of non-standard weapons such as mugs, bottles, chairs or whatever. And it should generally be non-lethal.
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Melee as it is now consists of basic punching and kicking (minus the animations). Basically brawling. So it is relatively realistic for the damage it gives. Few hits will cause extreme damage to your foe. Martial arts (not implemented yet), on the other hand, will be a specialized skillset, perhaps consisting of grabs, throws, trips, bends, and breaks, so will be able to cause much more damage to even an armored foe.
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Skilled martial artists killing someone with one blow only happens in movies. It is not realistic, unless the target is standing still and doesn't bother to defend at all maybe.
Add armor into the equation: even the simplest padded clothing can absorb a punch or kick's impact enough to render it useless. Hardened leather or anything more will prevent any unarmed damage. If melee fighters start using knucklers, studded gloves, etc then we can add in more damage and things like that should be planned.
=) Not going to flame about it here, but its possible, even outa movies.
Hit in neck (which in usually uncovered on front), joint at spine, well placed hit in nose or side of head, slight spin with head (effective while using horns on helms, makes more easy) ^.^... All this may kill one instantly, even with deffending oponent. Of course with reasonable skill and luck as well.
Especially when we take someone like Kran, or fast-pawed Enki.
Actually... I'm not opositing anyone (Zan) :) I'm a way, all truth.
But what is important is that this is game :)
Anyway whatever is reality, I think that small push of melee, to be reasonable way of fight might bring more variety in game.
For example with adding some possibility of critical strike, and of course with addiing melee weapons... Developement under way.
Movie-like atmosphere is imho nice, where in fantasy-medival world are melee master really dangerous. If it doesnt feel extra unrealistic of course. :)
PS: UtM: ^.^ Correct as usuall.
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Does a Kran have a spine? ;P
One hit kills are boring fights, but even if fights look like that right now, i think it is going to change, at least i hope so. I haven't played many games, so i dont know what are the options and so I'm of oppinion that we will stick with the Hit Points system - You attack, you opponents looses some of his HP. I don't think critical hits would be a good idea. I think I'm for the more predictable system where suprises are actions performed by players and where how good you are doing you see through the HP. Not how it is now, when you never know who press attack better and be the lucky one to deal 2-3 succesfull hits in a row. Very boring, not very real too.
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Actually martial arts(as far as the one i study goes) are about knowing a weak spot in your opponent and then abusing his mistakes until that weak spot becomes open.I saw my teacher take out a 2.10m high man who weighed at least half as much as he did with three blows.One to the left arm since he was left handed.One to the right shoulder because that arm still worked fine.And then one under the chin straight to the throat.Apparently it locks your breathing.After that it was too one sided to consider it more than helpless struggling.
What i am trying to say in a nutshell would be....Hand to hand fighting sucks until you get it way high.After that it can be as dangerous and even more dangerous than swords.
Give me a steel plated gauntlet and a man with a sword.Five minutes is being optimistic.
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Yeah, brawling's one thing. Melee should also encompass moves akin to those found in Judo or Combat Hapkido (trips, joint manipulations, throws, and the likes) as well as punches, kicks, and blocks, though.
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Right, I understand that there will be weapons, that's great :) thank you for making that clear! \\o//
Now, as for statements on effectiveness based on RL, first, it's a GAME. I know that the goal for GMs is to be fairly realistic, but Entevir has a point. As someone who studies Taekwondo, (yup, a martial art.) I know for a fact that it can be just as devastating as fighting with a weapon, sometimes more just because there's less things that can go wrong with it. (Things like your weapon breaking, or there being more surface area to block...)
Also, for Zan's benefit... Note that Miaua is completely correct, you don't punch somebody in the chest, or some other super protected area, you go for joints, pressure points, weak spots, or things that break easy. Also, to broaden your knowledge... Try getting hit by a really good kick. Then say that the power is nullified. :D
I was simply requesting that it be raised in power to the point where it's comparable to other skills, not that it needed to beat them all.
*As a note, it doesn't make sense-to me at least-to have the specialized melee skills that are just better versions of the melee skill... Wouldn't it be more user-friendly to encompass them all into one skill? Then you could use those other unimplemented skills to be interesting special attacks... Sort of like magic, but more physically based. A person who studies those schools could use their skills as a bonus to their fighting abilities in a way to make any weapon type be even better.
That's my opinion. Thanks for all the responses! :D
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Well, sure, melee can kill in one hit... so can a good swordsman, with lots more blood. :devil:
All fighting skills are about exploiting an opponents weakness. Even the martial arts masters created weapons to fight with in hand to hand combat. If you want to promote melee, work on some melee weapons, like nun-chucks (sp?), brass knuckles, staff, etc..
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If you want to promote melee, work on some melee weapons, like nun-chucks (sp?), brass knuckles, staff, etc..
Nunchakus and staffs are definitely no melee weapons but brass knuckles, gloves, blades straped on the forearm, etc, are.
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If you want to promote melee, work on some melee weapons, like nun-chucks (sp?), brass knuckles, staff, etc..
Nunchakus and staffs are definitely no melee weapons but brass knuckles, gloves, blades straped on the forearm, etc, are.
Don't forget claws! :P
Things like gloves, brass knuckles, weapons attached to the wrist, claws, and a increase in base power would be good for weapons.
(sorry, couldn't resist on that last one... That's all I was requesting in the first place; and it would still be needed, even with weapons.)
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Also, for Zan's benefit... Note that Miaua is completely correct, you don't punch somebody in the chest, or some other super protected area, you go for joints, pressure points, weak spots, or things that break easy. Also, to broaden your knowledge... Try getting hit by a really good kick. Then say that the power is nullified. :D
I have, plenty of times with the concussions to prove it. You're not the only martial artist here and neither am I. Regardless, this has nothing to do with armor rendering martial arts useless or being able to kill with one hit. Unarmed fighting deals less damage than fighting with weapons unless, like Entevir mentioned, the skill difference is huge. This is reflected in-game by the mechanics.
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Also, for Zan's benefit... Note that Miaua is completely correct, you don't punch somebody in the chest, or some other super protected area, you go for joints, pressure points, weak spots, or things that break easy. Also, to broaden your knowledge... Try getting hit by a really good kick. Then say that the power is nullified. :D
I have, plenty of times with the concussions to prove it. You're not the only martial artist here and neither am I. Regardless, this has nothing to do with armor rendering martial arts useless or being able to kill with one hit. Unarmed fighting deals less damage than fighting with weapons unless, like Entevir mentioned, the skill difference is huge. This is reflected in-game by the mechanics.
First, sorry Zan, you have a point.
Look, concussions, martial artists, RL abilities, me getting off topic and being mean to Zan for his opinion, aside...
The power that melee is at now in game, weapons or other in-development things aside, is too low for it to be usable in a reasonable manner. Could the power level please be increased? Melee doesn't have to match swords or axes, it just needs to be stronger than it currently is.
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Hmm.. Oki :)
Of course, Zan has good poins.. as all others, I guess.
But there is something...
What melee actually is? One way to see melee is what is presented in game mechanics.
Mechanics counts just with punches...
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*punch* *punch* *slap* *punch...*
This way is sure no effective way of melee fighting. Not even with some better and more powerfull hits or kicks.. Still no chance against weapons.
But what I'd like to see under melee fighting is something more like martial art, maybe even slightly overpowered then real world arts, to bring it into reasonable way of RP and/or playing.
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*Slip under attacking arm and with hand change it's moving way to avoid hit, hold the arm and slide close to enemy so his swords can't do any effective thing now, then with both hands just simply turn with enemy's head...*
*Chatch enemy's hand with dagger, move it and hold in harmless position (or break it) and in the end use his own dagger and deliver it in oponent's belly :P *
Now depends....
And like I said... :) I'm not saying that melee is better, nor more lethal or powerfull in the end (comparable skill melee vs weapon skill means nearly always great advantage towards weapons), just in game, I think it would be nice to make this way comparable to other ways of fighting, with essence of the epic, powerfull, empty-hand(paw) fighters and bring some variety, which is always good. :flowers:
Thats my points.. :D
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As ingame melee-fighter I finally should (well, of course ;D) agree to that melee should have some adjustments.
Aswell is the thought about different melee capabilities of the races a good point. An enki with his/hers natural agility might have some advantages and of course an several centimeter long enkiclaw at the neck of someone is more of a problem for him than a palm-slap at his shoulder...