PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Mrokii on July 04, 2008, 02:08:54 am
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Hi all,
yes, this will be a message purely with *whining* as certain people related to ps describe it so nicely. And the thing I am "whining" about is that with the new release of ps you can't climb on buildings, trees and other things anymore. Man, you guys *really* know how to spoil the fun for players. And it is not only me, let me assure you. I know a lot of people who *loved* climbing, some even used it for their roleplay and some I talked to thought about quitting the game because you took away these possibilities for exploring.
I heard the argument that we are not supposed to do these things, that it is even regarded as exploiting. I don't know if this is really an official statement, but if it is, I think it is silly and totally arbitrary from my point of view as nobody gets any advantage out of it, it is only for fun, nothing else. And hearing this argument makes me wonder why we have a climbing-skill at all (which doesn't work yet anyway).
So, what I would like to know, honestly, is: Was it *really* necessary to kill the fun for so many players? And will we get something of the ability back soon, for example by activating the climbing-skill and let those that want to specialize in climbing?
I do hope that there is a good reason for this change, though from what I heard on the irc, I am not really sure. Seriously, I am more and more beginning to feel like being put into a kindergarden. Do not climb, do not experiment, do *nothing* that is against the rules. That is the impression I got. And many others too, I am pretty sure.
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Actually, I got the impression from a bug report re: climbing ladders being super difficult (here (http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1643)) that this is a bug, not an intentional limitation. It sounds like the bounding boxes have changed in some weird way?
I agree that it is crazy annoying - it took me ten minutes to get up a ladder! - and hopefully they'll be fixing it.
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To not be able anymore to reach exalted or special places may be the downside, but I presume the main goal was it, to get more rid of having people getting stuck to edges and that.
EDIT:
As for the ladders, I usually simply strafe-jumped up (you mean the hard ones in the BD towers, right?), which always worked well and smooth - not anymore?
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There have been tons of bugs yet you automatically assume that the developers went into the code and changed simply to make it so people can't climb. I find that somewhat humourous ;)
Climbing is a trainable skill so, if not now then later, the ability to climb by glitching will be removed from the game as much as possible.
I don't actually know the series of events that lead to you losing your ability to climb but, my guess is it's related to either a bug fix or a small change in code. Devs do not really have time to go into the game code looking for something quite as trivial as players getting ontop of building when they shouldn't be able to ;)
Please, think before you whine :P
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As for the ladders, I usually simply strafe-jumped up (you mean the hard ones in the BD towers, right?), which always worked well and smooth - not anymore?
I haven't been able to try those - I'm having a weird bug where my client crashes loading certain maps, and the areas are currently out of bounds for me as a result - but I know I had an extremely difficult time getting up a ladder in the DR using the Dermorian female model. Even strafing and jumping didn't work.
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I have to agree with Mrokii, where in the rules does it say we should not climb, and some of us enjoyed it considering that when NPCs go down for days you are left either doing quest or mining, you have taken out part of the game that was enjoyable to alot of people, and i also heard the rumor of us exploiting certain things in the game by climbing on them well ill tell you when i was a kid climbing trees was a great joy, and a hiker climbs hills, and you get on a roof to clean gutters so what is this explantion about we should not be doing it, this sounds like someone trying to be big brother or maybe a little jealous they could not climb themselves, i would think there is a lot bigger problems in this game to start singleing out what certain players find fun, i will tell you whats not fun, mining for three days cause there isnt a dang think else to do so i went to climb and explore and found out that has been taken out of the game also :thumbdown: :@#\
BRING BACK CLIMBING :thumbup:
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See, here's the problem. I get nagged for complaining, but what I do is criticism. THIS is complaining. :P
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I got tired of the jokers painting the landscape in places I could not get to.
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I got tired of the jokers painting the landscape in places I could not get to.
I haven't seen that much of painted landscape, not in places that are hard to reach. What's so bad about it anyway? And actually you can (could) get there too *if* you want.
Shaman, this may be complaining but we have lost a thing we have cherished so much, how wouldn't we feel bad about it? For me, as already Birot mentioned, it was a great thing to do when the NPCs were down. No need to go to Gugrontid and mine like crazy for plat. You could climb around and put your thoughts in order. What do I do now that climbing is gone? Should I go to the mine and count my precious millions of tria as if money was the most important thing under the Azure Sun...(or maybe it really is and I'm just stupid to think the opposite). Becoming a mining machine: dig, repeat, take a rest, dig, repeat... Sorry, this is just my opinion. I haven't seen Gugrontid in a long time now. Been running around all this time after the release trying to find the new things.
And let me say one final thing. Even when the climbing skill is implemented, it will depend on the level again like the other skills at the moment and not on the abilities of the player. Many things have been said about fighting being just pressing a button and waiting etc. But the only things that don't depend on your level were:
a) roleplaying
b) questing (as long as you don't get spoilers from other players or need to kill an ulbernaut)
c) climbing
I guess this will change and the player skill will be taken into consideration too. One day.
But with the end of climbing we lost a part of our freedom.
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Reading over this thread I almost feel like what you people call "climbing" would have been a valid feature that got removed..
You guys got used to a buggy behaviour, and even enjoyed abusing it - now you complain it got fixed? Bad luck guys, get used to it :P
What will you do when one day Diaboli male models will be implemented? I bet you will whine because it wont look as tall anymore..
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Reading over this thread I almost feel like what you people call "climbing" would have been a valid feature that got removed..
You guys got used to a buggy behaviour, and even enjoyed abusing it - now you complain it got fixed? Bad luck guys, get used to it :P
What will you do when one day Diaboli male models will be implemented? I bet you will whine because it wont look as tall anymore..
Heh, Velh, even if it's buggy, it's not an exploit. We don't have any material benefits. And we didn't do harm to anybody. Plus I for one don't like only doing things that are pre-defined as "doable". Life is to explore new ways.
And concerning new models, it's normal that it's difficult to part from something you are used to and accept the new. I guess you'd agree with me when you lose something you liked IG. But the case of climbing is not just a new look. It was an activity, a hobby,...a way of life.
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Sorry, changes like these make me really wonder about the overall development plan for Planeshift. I mean, there are so many things missing but the devs change things that aren't really a problem IMO, such as the skins for Enkidukai or taking away the ability to climb without introducing the climbing skill.
At the moment I really think about if it is worth to put in the effort to get version 0.4.0.1 to run on my computer again. What I have read about the new version so far doesn't sound like as if it would be.
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This change may be intentional, or it may be the result of some other change that was made to a subsystem in the game. I do want to know if this is true and irreversable. I am afraid that if it is so, that it is going to be extremely unpopular.
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Oh, dont worry, I do agree with you there, also on the "climbing"-thing, which I noticed pretty soon. And I thought for myself "Damn, no more climbing the hill at the magic shop!", but the same time I thought it was the disadvantage of having almost no getting stuck anymore (while still 1 year ago people were whining right about that).
About using that climbing-bug, I didnt use the word "exploit" intentionally, because there indeed is no 'material' benefit. But quite obviously it did have some benefit, to reach far places - if there wasnt any, people wouldnt whine, no?
So yep, was nice to explore around like that, and I may miss it until the official version of Climbing will be implemented, but since it never was meant to be the way (and people had to be aware of that), I cant really complain..
changes like these make me really wonder about the overall development plan for Planeshift
I in fact highly doubt the devs were aiming at getting rid of people climbing on top of roofs at any time.. -.-
Hm.. so now that people most likely wont get stuck anymore they complain about the downsides? Heck am I glad I am not a dev lol..
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Hm.. so now that people most likely wont get stuck anymore they complain about the downsides? Heck am I glad I am not a dev lol..
Personally, I'm annoyed not because I liked climbing, but because I'm getting stuck way, way more. I've had to use /unstick more in the past few days than I did all last month.
Until someone on the dev team says differently, I'm assuming this was a completely unintended bug, and something that will be fixed once the major crashy issues of this latest update are fixed.
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They were exploitations of the game mechanics, not possibilities for exploring. Did you seriously expect to be able to keep doing that?
If you're patient, I'm sure they will be replaced with real supported climbing mechanics soon (tm).
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Imho this is an example again where a short note of someone (dev?) who knows if it was intended or not would help greatly.
If it was an unintended (and maybe even unknown) side effect of something else the situation is completely different and I at least hope that it would ease the mind of some us who don't like the change.
Btw, it looks like if I jump along a wall or whatever I can get up at least a little higher.
And Im sure it is worth the effort of installing it, also when there are some obstacles :)
Sen
#edit#
I looked more at it as a _tolerated_ workaround for a missing feature than an exploit what is a pretty radical (*cough* flame..) position.
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Common sense tells anyone that it was never intended that way. We have a climbing skill in-game but this skill was in no way related to this 'ability'. The skill isn't even trainable or activated yet. Secondly jumping higher and higher every time is a very weird way of climbing unless you're Sylvester Stallone or Tom Cruise. :P
This was obviously a glitch within the collision detection system, which is now fixed.
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Let me explain this a bit:
What you called climbing, was actually glitching. You were able to reach places you should not be able to. Even with a climbing skill, you shouldn't have been able to reach those places. You can hardly call it "climbing", it was really glitching. This was possible due to some bugs in the movement and collision code, those bugs were fixed. This also prevented some situations in which you could get horribly stuck.
If you want to climb again, wait for an official climbing skill.
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Common sense tells anyone that it was never intended that way.
Really? I always considered it a nice feature instead of a bug or glitch as long as we don't have the climbing skill.
We have a climbing skill in-game but this skill was in no way related to this 'ability'. The skill isn't even trainable or activated yet.
So we don't have this skill in fact and it can't be considered to be in the game.
changes like these make me really wonder about the overall development plan for Planeshift
I in fact highly doubt the devs were aiming at getting rid of people climbing on top of roofs at any time.. -.-
I don't think that you got my point here. I think that there are far more important things to implement then to change things that already have a (temporary) working solution, e.g. "/unstick" or skins for Enkidukai. If you have limited resources you should use them where it matters and not "waste" them on "cosmetic changes".
If you want to climb again, wait for an official climbing skill.
If they had introduced the climbing skill first before removing the "bug/glitch" it would have been a totally different matter.
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(...)I don't think that you got my point here. I think that there are far more important things to implement then to change things that already have a (temporary) working solution, e.g. "/unstick" or skins for Enkidukai. If you have limited resources you should use them where it matters and not "waste" them on "cosmetic changes"(...).
Determining what matters and what doesn't when you do not have access to all the information is a double-edged sword. What matters to a player may have no significance if you look at the bigger picture.
If you want to climb again, wait for an official climbing skill.
If they had introduced the climbing skill first before removing the "bug/glitch" it would have been a totally different matter.
But then we'd hear someone say: "Why did you introduce climbing when there are other more important things you should do! Stop wasting your time and start working on things that matter!"
Players need to understand that bugs have to be fixed. Whether it's a big bug, a small bug, a nice bug, or a horrible one, they all have to go. In that sense, if you can fix a bug now, you do it because you know others will come. The priority is to eliminate them all. Otherwise they will keep piling up.
Things are bound to change, for both better and worse, before the game is ready to hit the v.1 mark, at which point "better" should be the standard. This means you will lose some things and gain others.
Don't take it so seriously. You'll be wiped anyways... :flowers:
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Players also have to remember that there are many different types of people working around the clock on PS. The 3D modelers aren't going to know how to fix a server crash. So they are going to do what they know how to do and make models. Same with the 2D artists, the DB team, the engine devs, etc., etc.
It's just some things, like server crashes, and glitch fixings, take more time than say, making a new item, like some furniture pieces for a guild house interior, so different things, get finished at different paces.
:)
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Personally, I was just starting to get into climbing when it was removed. It was definantly a fun and intresting pass-time for me, and I certainly hope the dev's will acount the intrest many of us shared with the "buggy climbing" feature. I do have to say though the newest release of PS in general has certainly caused me more problems then the last. I had only used /unstick a total of 5 times in the past two months I've been playing the previous release. In the last few dused unstick 9 times. This is rather sad if you ask me. Also, the ladders are now unclimbable (if that's even a word) for me. I tried going to the top of Hydlaa Temple's Tower twice, and both times I ended up dying er "jumping" up the ladder, I would be thrown off by some weird bug and fall to the ground and die. In short, if absolutely nothing else, just bring back the buggy climbing. Don't make PS a Runescape with better graphics.
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I don't know where this thread will end up as I see people stating their opinions and not really trying to see the point of the other person. There's not only black and white.
First, I want to ask you to respect the work of the devs. These are not just cosmetic changes in my opinion. I'm sure they didn't intend to remove climbing but to decrease the number of people getting stuck (a considerable part of the questions in the help channel are related to this after all). It didn't turn out perfect as we can see from the ladders in DR but they are trying and success usually doesn't come with the first try. Also about the new fenki skin: I think it's great. I understand Mrokii, however, and think there should have been a possibility for the already existing chars to keep the old skin or to switch to the new one. And then again: these are *not* just cosmetic changes. The devs can work on the more important things first and leave as to get totally bored out of our skin. However, they take the time to make these "small changes" and bring colour into our lives. Yes, small changes, but think about how much time and effort are invested in that fenki skin for example...
Second, it makes me sad to hear people shouting "Exploiters! You got what you deserved!". I agree with ThomPhoenix, it was actually glitching... and it was fun, it made the game different, now it's gone. Happens all the time in real life too: losing things. It hurts but that's the way life is.
I won't say "Bring it back!". But I'll say again: we lost a part of our freedom. And everybody will have to find a way to live with that.
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Determining what matters and what doesn't when you do not have access to all the information is a double-edged sword. What matters to a player may have no significance if you look at the bigger picture.
I doubt that there is one single person who has all the information. It is always a double-edged sword as it is always subjective. I work as a software developer so I know that just following your own plans without discussing with the customer can quickly lead to a dead end. And the "customer" would be the players in the case of Planeshift. Or are the devs do the work just for themselves? I don't think so. The players can tell you how the game looks on the "outside" while a developer has the insight on the "inside". And as a player I can tell you how "incomplete" this game looks on the "outside" compared to other games on the market. Why not finish something first before opening up a new barrel? Let's take lockpicking as just one example. It has been in the game for how long? Are we able to use it in the game? Or the quarterstaff...why not finish this "project" by letting it drop by suitable mob and introduce the polearm-skill? Or making armour...I mean we have the armour, we have the materials, all we lack is the skill. I would guess that closing this "gap" would have been easier than introducing cooking/baking, with whole new resources and tools? Or take the missing models for the player races. Why introducing new animals while this important part is not finished? I'm aware that models for player races are more complex but it is "more complex" and not "completely different", isn't it? These are just examples and I hope that I was able to state what I mean with "it looks incomplete".
But then we'd hear someone say: "Why did you introduce climbing when there are other more important things you should do! Stop wasting your time and start working on things that matter!"
Yeah, I would have probably said that even though I have a character that would be very glad about that skill. But on the other hand I wouldn't have touched the climbing like it was, either. I used it quite frequently as it was part of my character and I didn't have to use "/unstick" that often. I really wonder why others had such a problem with it.
Players need to understand that bugs have to be fixed. Whether it's a big bug, a small bug, a nice bug, or a horrible one, they all have to go. In that sense, if you can fix a bug now, you do it because you know others will come. The priority is to eliminate them all. Otherwise they will keep piling up.
As a software developer I understand but if there is a working solution (e.g. "/unstick"), then you take on something else first. On a real market, where you would have to sell your software, your approach would fail because you would not be able to meet the deadlines. You have a little bit more freedom with Planeshift but believe it or not, there is even a deadline there.
Don't take it so seriously. You'll be wiped anyways... :flowers:
Oh, I don't have a problem with that as long as it is everybody who get's wiped.
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welp, I let this go, but I see this has degraded into the same old discussion on why something gets done before something else, and no matter how many times it's explained, some people don't get it, so lock.
edit:
so since RichardShru asked so nicely in a PM to me, I've agreed to unlock it so they can try to salvage the discussion. Here yeah go rich, post away. :)
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Well, before I start disscussing the issue again, I just wanted to thank neko kyouran for unlocking the thread. Thanks :D
Ok, now I am one of the newer players to PS, so I don't know how much credibility I have on subjects concerning the development of PS anthe course of the games future. However, in the game, climbing (although unofficial) was entertaining due to the fact that unlike most other aspects of RPG's, climbing in this game required a certain level of coordination and skill to manage. However, it still remained something that everyone could learn to do. It gave way to exploring areas of the game world that were once unreachable, and most importantly, it was fun. It was unique and completely orignal from any other feature in other mmo's. I e played several mmo's similar to PS, but even PS always stood out. Because of features like climbing, the game became more appealing to me. Now that I have posted my opinions on the matter, I open the debate up to any other's who have something to say on the issue. I only ayou remain civil, and only talk about climbing (in short, stay on topic!)
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Yes thanks Neko for not locking it, i have another example of what i used climbing for, every night before i logged off i would climb some where out of the main view set up a little camp and me and the wife would log out there, so now that climbing isnt part of the game i guess will we have to set up camp in the middle of the road or middle of the mine or somewhere else people will be walking all over that seems ridiculous considering we like to put out a little food some flowers and what nots, i so now i can see arguments developing over being in the way or matbe being a zombie just sitting in road but in fact im RPing with my wife, sometimes my guild or friends, so how is this a good thing for this game
I will say again BRING BACK CLIMBING :thumbup:, [or the glitch which some of you say it was, makes no since thats what you call it i see a hill in RL i dont look at it and go it would be nice to climb but but i cant] :thumbdown:
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they certainly won't bring back climbing just because a part of the community wants that, this bugfix is a huge improvment and as far as I know it also helps to prevent NPC's getting in stuck. Looking back from two and a half years PS now I can say that it was always like that, some funny new bugs come... some old ones go. You can be pretty sure that there will be new bugs, maybe this release or the next one.. and there are also many gaps in those invisible walls around the maps.. you still can "explore" the world. The places you can't reach anymore are now legends and you can tell tales about them.
So better see it as a chance for you to find new bugs! [Certainly don't forget to report them as well ;)]
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Determining what matters and what doesn't when you do not have access to all the information is a double-edged sword. What matters to a player may have no significance if you look at the bigger picture.
And that is part of the problem. I feel like handled a bit like like a baby who doesn't deserve to get the bigger picture. Is it really *that* difficult to give the players a small insight on the bigger plan? Like, what things have the highest priority for example, or, in this case, if we can expect to see the climbing-skill implemented soon?
And another thing, someone pointed out: Even *if* it will be, it won't be the same. As climbing as we had until recently was something that depended on the players ability alone, it was a challenge that not everybody wanted to take and therefore it was something special. With a climbing-skill this will change. The important thing won't be the players ability anymore but tria and ppoints. Ultimately, it will be a lot more boring than before.
And consider this: The ability to climb where others could not lead to making it part of the roleplay for others, i.e. a character that is too scared to sleep in the streets and therefore climbs onto a tree. It added a lot to roleplay for many.
I understand that it is considered a kind of bug that has been removed so to say. But devs should at least be aware of the fact that with taking this ability away (intended or not) they took away an integral part of the roleplay of some people and that without providing anything in exchange. Not even giving the players the hope that they might be able to climb again by using the skill.
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The thing is that it's again asking the devs to take time out of developing. If you really want a view of what's going on, reading the cvs commit logs tells you what's going on, even if you don't understand any of the code.
It seems that the climbing glitch is a side effect of a serious bug that required a work-around (/unstick), and sometimes got NPCs stuck as well, something that was far more annoying. In trying to clear it up they may have introduced a few more. As was said, it's part of the production cycle, and I'm sure the appropriate devs are working on the new issues right now. I'll admit that I'm a little taken aback at the fact that this release introduced more bugs than solved them, especially since I play a male dwarf. But I'm able to continue playing, and since I can't do anything to help in coding, I take what I have, with gratitude.
If it was an integral part of people's roleplay experience, it can still be roleplayed, just not actually done in-game. Something that, at this point in the game's development, shouldn't be strange to anyone who RPs. Just remember that it's a sign of progress, and it will eventually integrate with other fixes that will greatly expand the scope of the fix.
I have a few more choice phrases, but I won't put them here and court this thread being locked again.
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Wow, history sure does repeat it's self. I believe we had this same topic almost two years ago when the "jumping bug/flying bug" as it was called was fixed. Word of advice from a former jumper that loved to fly ..... you'll get over it.
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I do honestly sympathize with the devs over this, and I understand the basic reasoning for the decision. That being said - and I'm not a climber, personally, so this isn't something I'm running into while jumping on barrels or trying to climb steep hills - I'm having to use /unstick constantly. Continuously. In really obnoxious situations. The DR grates in particular have gone from "cool ambiance" to "digital flypaper"; it's crazy easy to get stuck in them if you're using one of the smaller character models. My computer lags pretty badly there: avoiding the holes in the grates where this happens isn't always possible. Having the DR be difficult to escape is fine with me, but not because the code doesn't take into account the need to jump up out of holes!
I'm not threatening to quit the game or something - for starters I have, like, zero willpower, and I would totally slink back shamefaced in a few weeks - but if it's impossible to roll back the new system now, I hope refining it is a high priority.
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I have to say that the "integral to roleplay" argument is not very convincing. It is no different than calling yourself a mighty hunter because you killed 500 ulbernauts when they were not fighting back when they would have killed you if they defended themselves. I used to like climbing the BD cliffs myself but it was never more than an OOC distraction. Sure my character likes to climb, he even has a solid green bar in the climbing skill, but taking advantage of something that is clearly not the way it is supposed to be cannot be contextual.
looks like w're headed for another lock!
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I can only refer back to my previous post on this matter, and add that the devs will not revert these changes just so you can go back to "climbing" which is actually glitching on the terrain. (You could even call it cheating, technically, but we're nice).
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I have to say, getting around in the sewers now is nearly impossible. I can't get over the bar connecting those strange waterwheels anymore.
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I dont agree with this so called "climbing" to be the necessary way to RP climbing.
A good example I can think of right now are those two fenkis of the Ways of Life (Yadili and the other one's name I cant recall atm, sorry). They RPed climbing trees to gather apples as well reachable from the ground. Few times I sort of RPed climbing myself, which was more like using dice rolls to determine success or failure.
This glitchy use of "climbing" would only be having some visual interpretation of what happened, in my opinion no way required for RPing at all.
As for the mentioned disadvantage, like having problems now to escape holes due to having "slippery" edges now.. havent experienced yet, but sounds interesting and concerning.
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I have re-read the forum rules again, twice, and see that my comments were possibly removed due to being overly aggressive toward other members, or because I posted multiple times without editing my original posting which could be construed as bumping the thread. As such, I have gone through my coments with a fine-toothed comb and removed any language which is hostile, and have combined the postings I still have into a single message. I have triple-checked that no rules are being broken now, and have adjusted all language in my posting to be neutral (in fact, substantially less agressive than many other posts in this thread). I believe am bringing up quite relevant opinions and complaints in my posting here, which is on the complaints forum. I apologise if I offended anyone. Thank you.
You guys got used to a buggy behaviour, and even enjoyed abusing it - now you complain it got fixed? Bad luck guys, get used to it :P
Far more than that bug has been removed.
This is a *complete* redux of the entire collision detection system. The bugs are massive, widespread and many of them intentional by the developers. I fell out of the maps a half dozen times the first couple hours playing. I have been permanently stuck in mid-air because of trying to jump down onto a tree from above. There are invisible barriers everywhere, and when you collide with them in the air, you teleport... and if you are unlucky enough to teleport into a solid object, you are frozen. /unstick doesn't help those times, it just places you inside the same ojbect again without moving you. You can also teleport out of the map when running into these invisible boxes that are around objects. Even the barrels outside Brado's bar are off-limits -- I got stuck in the wall merely for jumping on one of the barrels.
The GMs have specified that this new system is in place to:
1) Reduce CPU usage for the people playing.
2) Reduce players getting stuck and requiring GM assistance.
I disagree with both of those.
For 1, putting invisible boxes around everything in the game, which prevents people from interacting realistically with those objects, seems like no solution at all. It is simply limiting the player's interaction with the world around them.
For 2, the current system is unimaginably worse than before. /unstick used to work 99+% of the time -- now it often does not work. Players fall out of maps. Players can now go to *tons* of places without any jumping at all, which they are then completely unable to get out of. The current state of things is a nightmare for GMs. They will be hounded with dozens of times more people who are stuck in the air, stuck in walls, dead after falling out of maps, stuck when dropping or walking down into a place with no exit, etc.
This is not idle complaining. Climbing is a MASSIVE part of PlaneShift for tons of players. Look around at the thousands of screenshots out there by people looking down from some vantage point, which they got to by climbing. It is part of RP, it is part of the magic of PlaneShift, and it has been yanked away from all of us. There are entire guilds devoted to exploring, but what is left to explore now is almost nothing. More than half the places to check out in the entire game have now been removed.
I remember reading that the PlaneShift devs said to use one basic rule for players when they are interacting with other players, which was something to this effect:
Use common sense and don't do things that would ruin other player's enjoyment of the game.
I see this as what has now happened with the removal of all aspects of climbing (they have removed way more than the glitch) -- they have now eliminated a huge source of enjoyment for *hundreds* of players.
I am one of the players that will be leaving PlaneShift if the intention is for this drastic new system to be the permanent state of things. I love PlaneShift and sincerely hope it is not.
Let me explain this a bit:
What you called climbing, was actually glitching. You were able to reach places you should not be able to. Even with a climbing skill, you shouldn't have been able to reach those places. You can hardly call it "climbing", it was really glitching. This was possible due to some bugs in the movement and collision code, those bugs were fixed. This also prevented some situations in which you could get horribly stuck.
If you want to climb again, wait for an official climbing skill.
I don't agree here at all: they removed *way more* than that specific glitch. They changed the entire way that people interact with objects in the world, by introducing a system of invisible barriers, even around objects that would normally be WALKED ON before. Far, far more than glitch-climbing has been removed. You can't even jump onto the branches of a tree anymore, without being teleported away or perma-stuck. You can't climb on many of the barrels safely or at all. You can't even climb on the bottom stone blocks of the steps in the Plaza. etc. etc. etc. etc.
If they only removed the glitch allowing people to climb steep surfaces, there would still be hundreds of places that could be explored, even BEFORE any climbing skill was implemented. As it stands now, most normal places to go have been blocked.
And unless they do a really good job implementing the climbing skill, it is not going to give the hundreds of players who enjoy exploring and climbing much satisfaction at all.
Yet another thing that has been removed from the game:
The ability to *jump* while on an angled surface. Go to any angle over about 20 degrees, and you can not jump forward or backward. You *sometimes* can jump straight up, but only if there is no wall nearby you. This is broken and quite frustrating.
I wonder how these things slipped by PlaneShift's team of testers. Wouldn't they notice themselves falling out of maps, getting stuck when walking over one foot tall objects, getting permanently stuck when jumping against most any objects in the game, etc.?
But then we'd hear someone say: "Why did you introduce climbing when there are other more important things you should do! Stop wasting your time and start working on things that matter!"
I don't see why anyone would complain when a new skill was implimented, one which numerous people have wanted for many years. Why would people complain about that?
People will certainly complain when things which are not considered to be a problem are completely changed with no recourse. I have never met anybody that found the grey fenki skin to be a problem, not one in the years I have played. I've already talked to more than a dozen people who dislike the new grey fenki skin and/or miss the old one and want it back, and I have played 0.4.01 very little, for only one day.
How was that a worthwhile expenditure of the artists time?
Wouldn't that have been better spent creating textures for things that didn't have them? Like golden shields (I've heard about three or four dozen complaints that other shields don't have their own skin), special weapons, etc.?
Players need to understand that bugs have to be fixed. Whether it's a big bug, a small bug, a nice bug, or a horrible one, they all have to go.
Yet again I need to point out that the glitch-climbing bug is not what was fixed. The entire system of interaction with game objects was radically changed. They didn't simply remove the back/forward or sideways/forward bug that allowed players to climb steep surfaces.
Don't take it so seriously. You'll be wiped anyways... :flowers:
Climbing and exploring are far more fundemental than a single character. I won't be significantly bothered when they wipe our characters, so long as everyone is wiped and people aren't allowed to steal old character's identities. Climbing and exploring are two of the big draws in PlaneShift for hundreds of *players*. Don't worry aboutt the characters, this is something being taken from the players. Being able to explore the beauty of the artwork created for PlaneShift -- and it is beautiful. As said, their are entire guilds devoted to exploring, and many more guilds whose secondary purpose is exploring. Exploring has all but been eliminated from PlaneShift, apparently permanently. This is not a good thing, in my opinion.
Qia makes a good point. Without climbing it gets complicated to get out of some "uncomfortable" places.
Re what you said about getting stuck, their reason that this is to reduce GMs helping people get unstuck is rather misguided. It is unbelievably worse now for getting permanently stuck and needing GM assistance. There are endless places you can drop down into in the game, which now you can't get out of anymore. Even places that *didn't* require the glitch to get out of, you are now stuck in permanently.
I wonder if GMs do enjoy spending hours a day unsticking people, as I alone have already needed to be moved by a GM ten times in less than two hours of play time.
I am not going to stop trying to climb on small objects simply because I am supposed to be a good little sheep and do nothing but walk around the roads looking up at the beautiful scenery in the distance... I want to explore that scenery and enjoy its beauty, just as I do in the real world: I love to climb trees and mountains and even houses -- in real life. I see no reason it should be considered illegal or immoral to do it in-character in PlaneShift.
It was something that made PlaneShift truly unique over just about every other game I have seen:
Great RP, and great scenery which could be interacted with.
As Birot's example, going camping with his wife -- I have done the same hundreds of times. It is a wonderful part of RP. Camped out on a hill overlooking some beautiful landscape in the distance, having a meal and getting some sleep. Simple parts of life which are very enjoyable to RP, which we are no longer allowed to take part in.
Wow, history sure does repeat it's self. I believe we had this same topic almost two years ago when the "jumping bug/flying bug" as it was called was fixed. Word of advice from a former jumper that loved to fly ..... you'll get over it.
This is nothing like either of the flying/jumping/levitating glitches of the past. I certainly didn't complain at all when they removed the levitating glitch: It was a clear bug, out of character and out of Settings, and it was removed.
This is *not* just a bug removal. It is a complete change in game mechanics which prevents people from realistically interacting with the environment around them in an enjoyable manner.
I lost one or two other posts, but the above covers most of my thoughts on this issue. Thank you.
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Well, consider this: This wasn't wrong, just a bit shortsighted or unknowing of the devs. However, this change has ramifications FAR beyond climbing in that many places in the world are simply unreachable. (The Brigand on BDRoad1, for instance.) So, either we need to re-jigger the entirety of Yliakum to accomodate this work (which wasn't even the work of a PS dev per se) or implement game mechanics to replace the movement abilities that this patch took away.
And no, the behavior of the patched client wrt too-steep slopes is STILL not correct! Look at Halo for instance, where if you try to climb a too-steep slope, you just go sliding back down for whatever "up" you were able to garner instead of being blocked by an invisible wall OR getting stuck! Is world collision detection harder than even I think it is?
Also, I've already had to have Pizik help me TWICE (once due to a map bug + the lack of an ability to "grab" ledges and the second time due to the slopes issue, the "ladder shelf" on the Laanx Dungeon needs to be removed or reworked to accomodate this change as it is quite difficult to get onto it and nearly impossible to get on the front of the ladder!)!
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See the thing is you are going about it in completely the wrong way. This new method for collision detection or whatever it is may not last. The old way was clearly buggy, there is no ledge there but you can slide along the bare cliff wall. I guess you have sticky pads on your hands and toes. Instead of creating a whole brouhaha on the forums make bug reports on the bug tracker. You get stuck on a barrel? report it. you can't jump on a slope? report that too. That is what the bug tracker is for. If they get too many bug reports about different facets of the same system they will have to go back to the drawing board.
All I can say is I haven't got stuck anywhere yet that I couldn't /unstick out of. Of course other than climbing on some rooftops in gugrontid I have not got too far off the beaten track. It may be that some tweaks to the system have been made in the few days the server has been up and some of the problem places have been fixed. I know for a fact that the brigand was fixed the very next day that I reported it on the tracker. If you run into a wall that you think should not be there use /pos and post its location. It does seem to me that the boundaries have been moved in and there is less space than there used to be but that is not that big a deal.
Stop complaining, start reporting.
Guess I should see what the fuss is about, I had no trouble getting up the ladder in the DR with my Kran, perhaps I'll try a Dwarf. (http://web.ncf.ca/cr502/great_googley_woogley.gif)
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I've reported the first stuck instance on the tracker already, the second is covered under my general report on this issue.
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No longer can one climb to the top of the cliff from the back of Harnquist's. Sigh...
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Reading over this thread I almost feel like what you people call "climbing" would have been a valid feature that got removed..
You guys got used to a buggy behaviour, and even enjoyed abusing it - now you complain it got fixed? Bad luck guys, get used to it :P
Actually, I quite enjoyed 'abusing' this bug too. It was lots of fun climbing in the BD and the more I think about it, a 'feature' very similar to that bug would make an excellent implementation of the climbing skill.
Remember.... people were having FUN climbing and that is what this is all supposed to be about. Fun fun fun.
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No longer can one climb to the top of the cliff from the back of Harnquist's. Sigh...
If you mean the same "mountain" I think you do: I have managed to get on top of it after the new release. Just once for now (because I haven't tried again yet :devil:).
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yeah that's pretty easy... there are several working ways how to get on that "mountain".
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Hiya, I'm one of the testers that has known about this for months... and some people are confusing a few separate issues.
For a start there is the weird "portal displacement" (http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1796) bug that was known for a week or so, but we could never figure out how to fix it, release went ahead regardless. It happens randomly, best thing to do is just restart the client until the portal works for now; there are also some probably related bugs to do with random teleporting; my guesses are this could be a bug in cs, as I get similar things in walktest; or it could be a bug in the map exporter, or it could be ps's usage of cs.
Then the strange "dwarf ghosting, client message mixup" (http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1834), the invisible NPCs, this somehow slipped through testing, sorry :) The dwarf bug does not seem to happen on svn test servers. My opinion is that these are almost certainly not related to the redone movement system, more likely to do with the network handling code or other server side type stuff... Khaki did a lot of reworking of the net stuff, it's most likely the main reason for less 'lag'.
A few crashes related to buggy art; some crashes from meshes getting invalid positions somehow, maybe a dev made a little mistake...
Then there is the infinite steep climb bug that was fixed, there's no way the devs will put that back in, it's not realistic, similar things have been removed before and not put back... you could walk up walls for goodness sake :P
Then there is what I think is a valid issue, that jump height is less; and collision against edges is a little more 'sticky' than previous... from my testing there are a bunch of situations that don't get you stuck so much any more, but there seems to be a situation that you get stuck easier (against near vertical slopes). There is already a report opened. (http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1867)
As to the "can't jump off slopes" thing, I'm not seeing it, I just started my server to test; the only times I can't jump from a slope are when I can't get any further on a very steep slope, just turn around and I can jump a fair distance. You may be feeling the effects of the old bug, FS#205 (http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=205).
I asked the dev about the jump height, he said that's the way he intended it. And no, it wasn't some new guy going in and messing it all up, it's the same person that's always done it, as far as I know... The current movement system is not as "flexible" for exploring, and I miss that too; but all things considered I think there are more good things than bad things with the latest changes.
He wasn't trying to spoil all your fun; I think he spent weeks on it... and it can get complicated. When trying to fix it, you have to get an idea of how it should be in your head, and plan the code to suit; maybe it works well, maybe you missed a few things. When trying to do it the right way, you can't leave in all this old crap that doesn't fit with the new system; maybe it did have a nice side effect that a lot of players liked, but if you leave all the tricky little bugs in, it will eventually be a horrible crash causing un-debuggable mess, and PlaneShift 1.0 will never be released.
Remember, I'm not one of 'them' against you, I liked the climb 'feature' too, and was a bit disappointed when it went... I've just had a few months to get used to it being gone (and btw I think I was the first to find out how to do it, I remember finding it with svn trunk a few days after the commit that introduced it, and I had to tell the other testers how, nah nah bragging rights :P )
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Change happens, we will all still have fun. Vornne, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
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*enters the thread and pauses to finish eating one of the 13 pies he has just looted from The Brigand...*
In games like PS we spend most of our time using one or other of movement controls which move our characters or avatars in a Forward direction. Some of the rest of the time we might use the movement controls which make our characters or avatars Turn Left or to Turn Right. Some of us may even make use of the movement controls that alter the camera view to Look Left or to Look Right. But that's pretty rare, because mostly we are moving Forward. That can easily make us rather tunnel visioned.
In a game like PS it might just be that the Developers have created areas / features in the landscape where the Forward movement controls do not work. Even create areas / features in the landscape where no movement controls work at all! But it might be, that these Developers have also created areas / features in the landscape where only the other, less often or rarely used movement controls are the ones that move your character / avatar through or around or under or over or up or whatever to get to the next part of the landscape.
Okay, so in the light of the recent major revision of the collision detection and other related code, the points I've made might not seem of much comfort. As has been said before, PlaneShift is a game that is under a constant process of development. Some of the changes and improvements will seem drastic and even world-changing of what we have become used to as we play. The changes get refined, tweaked, and eventually improved upon, as overall the game gets smoother and more stable and more feature-rich from update to update.
I reached the Brigand by a slightly different route to how I had become accustomed to reaching him in the past, but I got to him by normal running.
Oh, by-the-way... the ladder in the Death Realm wouldn't let me run up it in the manner I had become accustomed to in the past -so I brushed the dust off one of the seldom-used movement controls and got to the top without fuss. [the character I used was a male Enkidukai... perhaps other character models might have difficulty?]
*What? ... How did I happen to end up in the DR? ... Erm... -that's another story entirely!* :P
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Bugs That Have Been Fixed:
- Fixed the issue where the contents of a persons inventory would become invisible.
- Females now have their last name properly restored after a divorce.
- The command "/list_advice_request" doesn't crash your client anymore.
- Female Dermorians no longer crash if a helmet is present.
- Fixed item ownership issues during crafting.
- Fixed the enter key not responding on Mac OS.
- Many fixes to collision detection for NPCs and players.
- Attempting to attack an item with your pet no longer crashes the server.
- Armor will be properly removed from the body if dequipped.
- Some fixes to the /marriage divorce command for players.
- Fixed a major money exploit.
- Some spell bugs fixed.
- You can now actually change the leadership of an alliance to other players.
- Renamed characters now show up with their new name in the Guild's Member List window.
- When sorting spells in the spell book, alls spells show their correct descriptions now.
- Some small fixes to the shortcut and chat windows.
- Tooltips on mouse-over in the inventory now works better.
- In maps, you can no longer drag map objects past the canvas border.
- Many crash fixes!
This is taken from release topic. I've change some colors for you.
I shouldn't post anything as I'm newbie in PS, but...
As a newbie I see how many bugs were fixed(yellow). This topic is about fixing collision(other will tell about spoiling fun). I'm happy all those bugs were repaired and I'm VERY happy that you can't use bug to get areas where you shouldn't be or where you can get by exploring.
For those explorers who love to "climb" and look from above:
I think you play very long and explore all places in PS. Now you have a chance to explore all those places once again. Try to get all those beautiful places by your feet, explore it one more time in NORMAL way(not using engine bugs). Raport bad working stairs, roads...
For those who use "climbing" to kill monster(abusing rules) - not sure if it's possible (as I'm newbie)
You should report, not expolit.
For those who cannot jump on barrels etc.
Report, report, report . If you see it's unrealistic that you can't jump on something - collect all those things and make topic somewhere, send it to bug tracker. I think Devs will be happy to repair this in due time.
For all:
As for now you all lived in somekind of waterworld. PS is under water?. PS have gravity like earth. Try to climb wall (in real) without any support(climbing set)- is it possible? I don't think so. As I'm newbie I enjoy finding a route to climb(in normal way) some places, like in DR where you must go around to get top. All those places where you can't go now could be accessed by talking with somekind of NPC or by doing quest(NPC could teleport you somewhere). Don't you see all good things Devs made(those yellow marked are very important IMO).
For Devs:
Thank you for all fixes. I hope you will fix many more bugs. Keep that good work.
PS.Some of you said Devs doesn't accept criticism. Do you accept criticism? Try to find good things for all , not a bad for few. This is not accusing post and I do not think you are egoistic.
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I'm happy all those bugs were repaired and I'm VERY happy that you can't use bug to get areas where you shouldn't be or where you can get by exploring.
If I may draw attention to this sentence for a moment, what exactly is so negative and unsatisfactory in your opinion about exploring? And why should we not be able to get to areas that happen to be above ground level? Its not like there is an over abundence of places to explore at the moment. I remember when they had climbing in that I was able to get to places in the DR I had previously though unreachable. Bridges that were far from the main path, that large Goblin looking head lol. Long story short, why limit yourself?
For those explorers who love to "climb" and look from above:
I think you play very long and explore all places in PS. Now you have a chance to explore all those places once again. Try to get all those beautiful places by your feet, explore it one more time in NORMAL way(not using engine bugs). Raport bad working stairs, roads...
Would you consider it unrealistic, or abnormal, to climb a tree? Maybe a ladder, or a mountain? I apologize if this sounds sarcastic, but take for example Mountain Climbers, you see them "climbing" mountains in real life, so why should we stay on a road or path and not "climb" as well?
For those who use "climbing" to kill monster(abusing rules) - not sure if it's possible (as I'm newbie)
You should report, not expolit.
I don't think I've ever heard of that happening. I player is engaging in legitiment combat to kill "anything" no bug is being abused as far as I am concerned. How the player gets to it I'm not concerned about. If the player climbs something and the act of doing so kills "anything" I consider that a bug/exploit that should be reported.
Report, report, report . If you see it's unrealistic that you can't jump on something - collect all those things and make topic somewhere, send it to bug tracker. I think Devs will be happy to repair this in due time.
I have supported this thread from the begining because it adresses an issue that I believe was a core part of the game before its removal. I find it unrealistic that we are now unable to climb. Period.
For all:
As for now you all lived in somekind of waterworld. PS is under water?. PS have gravity like earth.
We are not going against settings by climbing. We are not making "gravity defying" leaps or climbing vertical walls, we are climbing places that would normally be reachable in real life situations. The reason for that is because we are "not" able to make "gravity defying leaps", PS had gravity functions like a real world.
I Apologize if any of this might have been offensive to anyone, it was not intended to be.
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What climbing fans don't seem to acknowledge is the fact that it wasn't a simple bug. Nobody went ahead and said "Oh, they climb trees and they shouldn't... let's turn that off." The climbing "ability" was an afterthought of another more complex bug. By fixing it, it got removed.
This does not mean there won't be a climbing skill or that climbing trees is OOC or against the rules. It just means that, for the time being and due to more important things, that "ability" is no longer available. Maybe there will be tweaks to that fix and something better can be done about it but that's still work in progress so be patient. It's not the end of the world.
Not having this ability at the moment does not ruin the game.
Not having this ability at the moment does not make PS unplayable.
Not having this ability at the moment does not kill RP.
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The issue right now for me ISN'T that climbing is removed. It's that the coldet changes are causing hangups on sharp edges and effectively inserting an invisible wall before unclimbable slopes, leading to nonsensical and annoying behavior as compared to other games I play/have played. NOTE TO DEVS: a blocker before an unclimbable slope is NOT the correct fix to being able to climb that slope!
P.S. How feasible would it be to migrate PS over to Bullet for physics+coldet as opposed to ODE physics + OPCODE coldet? OPCODE (or at least the old implementation of it) is looking more and more like a steamin' heap of Trepor dung to me!
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I think we have lost focus of the climbing issue, i thought we were testers not sheep, to take away something that a majority of people like to do including building guilds based just upon exploring, seems totally riduculous when we tell you we enjoy something and you just ignor us then are we really part of the game or just someone that devs do not care about, why make PS so beautiful if all you can do is look up at it, without explore you have taken all the work put in by the art department and made it useless that seems a little like the right hand doesnt know what the left hand is doing, and i have to say if theres a mountain there then i want to climb it, if its a tree i will attempt getting on a branch, lets hope the rain doesnt fill some of the gutters on the house noone would be able to clean them and yes this is sarcastic :thumbdown:
In otherwards you stopped us from exploring and enjoying what the art department spent lots of time creating.
I can see were if i was the only one complaining it wont be a big issue but that is not the case, this game was very enjoyable the way it was before.
So when a majority complain someone should listen for the sake of the game
And this is not a bug fix as so many have said, it is a complete disregard to the ability of exploring
Please BRING BACK CLIMBING :thumbup:
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Birot, when it digressed from the the issue at hand, Neko locked it. Ever since it has been dead on topic. It has been explained by testers and Doajoji. You'll survive, somehow, until the climbing skill is implemented, or the walls that prevent you from glitching are for whatever reason removed. And I would recommend going back and rereading your post. It reads like a direct attack to the devs over something that isn't game ruining, and has been explained.
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Indeed. Plus, it is not a democracy. The game is being shaped in a certain way because that is how it is intended to be made. If everyone turned around and said I think Hydlaa should have a castle floating above it do you really think it would make Talad put it there?
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No more climbing. Time to focus on other features. Give them time to understand the new system, and formulate a kickass new climbing skill. Really miss it though, was part of the charm of the client. Life goes on...
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Climbing wasn't a feature.
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*Morla wonders already when this discussion will end. And goes looking for new bugs to get down*
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You people just keep on going on about the removal of the climbing-steep-surfaces bug. That is far from the most major change with climbing! You can't even jump on a barrel now, without a great deal of effort and risk of getting permanently stuck. You can't jump over the waterwheel bars in the sewers. You can't jump over the railing in the Tavern. You can't jump onto or over numerous walls that used to be easy to climb. On and on the issues go, and none of those are related to the CLIMBING BUG. Give it a rest, you all sound like a broken record saying "It was just a bug removed, get over it". I for one am NOT discussing the bug that was removed -- fine, that can be replaced with a climbing skill. I am talking about all realism being taken away from us players in exploring the environments. A person in real life is not going to have any difficulties climbing on a waist high barrel!
I have been researching the new object collision system in *great detail* for several hours, and I've identified around ten distinct bugs/problems in it so far. I will be submitting bug reports with the screenshots I took, once I have time, maybe tonight.
The primary problem with the new system is the difference in how jumping is interpretted. Before, you could walk up steps while on the ground. For instance the foot and a half high steps in the Plaza. And more importantly, before if you jumped into the air and were within a foot and a half before the top of an object, your character would "pull themselves up", as if they were walking up a step. In the new version, you can no longer pull yourself up. Unless your foot CLEARS the top of the object completely, like an Olypmic high jumper, you won't make it on top. This creates painfully fake scenarios like jumping on a barrel, where your foot is around one inch below the top of the barrel, yet you can't get on it.
That is the most glaring issue, but there are tons more that I have identified:
- Jump height is reduced the steeper the slope is until you can't jump at all.
- Turning speed with keyboard is reduced the steeper the slope is until it takes 30 seconds to turn around.
- When walking onto most angled surfaces, you walk into the object, which looks fake.
- There are holes at nearly every map change place where you can fall out.
- When colliding with various objects you will be teleported nearby, usually within 15-20 feet, sometimes down through the floor where you will fall out of the map.
- Getting stuck by an object happens constantly now, and when it does /unstick will put you in the same spot every time.
- When jumping against objects you will run on the spot in the air until you walk backward.
- You can jump against any wall and stick yourself to it by moving forward. If you wiggle around while stuck on the wall, you can normally get a second jump, even further up the wall. It seems two jumps up a wall is the limit.
- Related to the sticking to the side of things: sometimes you will get sucked upward on an object and end up on top, even though it shouldn't be possible to climb. For instance the hanging lights in Jayose's Library can be climbed easily and they are much higher than jumping height.
- More....
All of these can be demonstrated easily by me .
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Some of those look awfully familiar. I'm pretty sure that some if not all have been here a long time. Perhaps I'm wrong though and during the time I was away they were fixed.
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Some of those look awfully familiar. I'm pretty sure that some if not all have been here a long time. Perhaps I'm wrong though and during the time I was away they were fixed.
These are all new bugs. I am very aware of interactions with the environment.
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I recall a time around the release of version 0.3.01 where it was near impossible to jump on top of objects, as you'd try and just get stuck. it was later fixed, and it'll be tweaked again for this time around. different issue from before, but similar results. welcome to development. :)
seems everyone who wanted to voice their opinion has done so and now it's just the same argument being reworded by the same people.
im sure the devs thank you all for your input and they'll do what they think needs to be done.
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Wait a minute, i dont think everyone got to say there opionion before you locked it Neko. The first thing i learned in planeshift was climbing, i enjoyed it so much i started teaching others. I loved that it was a free roaming enviromont, not confined to paths like most other games...Hmm, wonder where that went...Climbing was not a skill to me but it was a enjoyable part of the game. Now that you've taken it away, its not nearly as fun as before. :thumbdown:
PLEASE PUT CLIMBING BACK! >:(
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Starting a new thread isn't going to do any good. Right, wrong, or indifferent... things have been done. They will not be undone, and I get the impression that you can look forward to many more development decisions that you are not going to like.
I agree that climbing was a very fun pastime. My second day in-game someone took me on a tour and I fell in love with the graphics. Unfortunately, this is very much not a democracy, and they will take our comments under advisement when it suits them to do so. That is the best we can hope for, especially since it is free.
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Hanace, all I have to say is if you feel there is more to say on the issue (and this goes for everyone else as well) please message neko to unlock the old topic, because we don't want to spam the forums with threads on climbing. I certainly feel there is more to say, but I do not think that it would be appropriate for me to request him to open the topic again. Therefore, in the name of fairness, please send all comments and/or requests to either reimplement climbing, or reopen the thread, to neko. Thank you for not spamming :D
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You have nothing new to add to the discussion. Your only comments you wanted to make, was that you too, like many others, are displeased that you are now no longer able to exploit game mechanics to get to places.
Your feelings on the changed game mechanics has been thoroughly expressed by many of your piers in the original thread and the devs do get the general understanding of it all.
With that being said, there is no reason to keep beating the dead horse, as it won't make future changes come any faster, and all it will serve is to cause drama, and burnout on everyones part, making the game and forums un-enjoyable and drive both players, testers, and devs alike, away from the project.
It's my duty as global mod to step in and nip drama in the bud before it gets out of hand, and this is what I did.
Again, your feelings on the recent changes are noted, but at the same time, there is no reason to keep repeating the same viewpoint over and over again. We all get the point. :)
At this point in time, I ask that you just have some patience.
Mod's Note: merged this topic with the original one.