PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dajoji on July 23, 2008, 12:14:34 pm
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I, Roleplayer
I set the standard
I am the one
I know the laws of RP
I wrote them all
I am neither good nor evil
I am neither big nor small
I dwell in my plots
And my plots are none
I, Roleplayer
roleplay alone
Ok. Forgive the happening. Call it a performance thread, if you will... but I've been thinking about this for a while now. The community has very different peoples. Call them cliques, call them groups, call them whatever you want. Some are roleplayers, some are powerlevelers, some a both, some are none. The game is supposed to welcome everyone and foster Roleplay. This, to my understanding, does not mean that only roleplayers should play the game but that roleplay should be the most important characteristic of PS and the community, which does not exclude other things like training, questing or making money, it only means those things should not disrupt RP.
Now, the thing that worries me is that in our effort for creating sound characters and plots sometimes we fall into what I'd like to call the "I, Roleplayer" attitudes. Let me give you some examples:
- I, Roleplayer cannot stand learning mistakes. I too cringe a little when I read something like "/me thinks it's going to rain soon", or "Hi! :)". Neither being able to naturally read someone's thoughts nor the smiley belongs in an IC entry but if we interrupt RP to [point out] these things in main chat, WE are the cause RP is being disturbed. It's not the same as going plain OOC with lols and whatnot.
- I, Roleplayer have a unique character who "wouldn't do that", "wouldn't join that", "wouldn't care about that". Yes, creating a unique personality is an essential part of roleplaying but you can't roleplay alone. It saddens me a little when people take this idea too far and ostracize themselves from the community plots simply because their character is "above" those things others do. I can't join that event because my character doesn't care about that, someone told me once. Fair enough, but how often does your character have to sit plots and events out because of that same reason? When the very nature of your roleplay keeps you from interacting with others, a little flexibility and rethinking could be of use. If not, you're the only one missing out on things.
- I, Roleplayer had a great group of friends once but since they left, I have not seen anyone else I would be interested in roleplaying with. The saddest thing is when we don't have a reason to RP or come online anymore. We know how much we like RP, we try to do it every time we're on, but we simply cannot find the people to do it with. I know this from experience and I can tell you it's really not a big deal. People come and they leave and then come back and leave again. It's a part of any community. You just need to let go and not sit and wait for your friends of days past to come back. The moment I started a little plot with one of my characters, I made a ton of new friends. Sure, I missed my old one but guess what? Many of them have returned since then. We can't do anything about people leaving, but we can do a lot to get to know those who have arrived.
- I, Roleplayer am misunderstood, my wishes ignored, and my initiatives shut down by the PS staff and the Powerlevelers. The "I, Roleplayer" attitude separates us from the rest. If we see ourselves as a minority or a faction in the community we are creating reasons to distrust the others and their intentions when in the end, there is no need to make such distinctions. Note that I am not referring to people who like the game because they can RP in it. I'm talking about the people who use the word "roleplayer" to separate themselves from others ("powerlevelers", "developers", "game masters", "forum members", "NPCs"). We assume they do not understand us and that they are not interested in making the game better for us. That is not the case. It's easy to get the wrong impression about people if we base our opinions on a few posts on the forums. It's obvious that opinions will differ and sometimes even clash but we don't have to assume ill intent every time and when we set our minds in defensive mode because "I, Roleplayer" am being mistreated, then discussions are not going to be constructive. This "I, Roleplayer" attitude is infectious and it's responded with an "I, Powerleveler" one, or an "I, Developer" one an "I, Game Master" one. The "I" part being the problem.
- I, Roleplayer have a keen eye for inconsistencies and I shall not be part of anything flawed. Details. They are very important but in a game in development the more details we try to define, the more corrections and rewrites we will be making in the future. Of course we care about consistency. Of course we want things to make IC sense all the time but there are things that do not exist yet and we have to allow certain vagueness when referring to them so that when they get written we're not completely out of bounds. So yes, sometimes events and plots will lack some details and elements, or they can have questionable/debatable approaches but know that all events have to be approved by Settings or Talad, so the content in them is therefore official and there all make sense; and that events are created for the entertainment of players. There is an OOC reason there, which is the same behind the very existence of the game and in that sense we can sacrifice a few IC details so players have the best time. There is both deep concern for giving events the IC meaning they need to take place as well as deep concern of what will make them more enjoyable for players. "I, Roleplayer", however, do not fail at pointing out the flaws and stop right there, outraged, offended, bewildered. It's "I, Roleplayer" who is the first to go OOC about those flaws, demanding they be corrected, stopping my RP in the process. Do not get me wrong, we appreciate any feedback concerning events and we always listen to what the community says about them and try to make them better based on that (even if we don't always do exactly what the community says we should). What we don't want, however, is for "I, Roleplayers" to assume that things have not been thought through and focus on those details we cannot specify and forget that the game is in development and that they must adjust their expectations accordingly. And most importantly, we don't want "I, Roleplayers" to stop roleplaying because of the flaws they see. Sadly, it's the "I, Roleplayers" who are the first to ignore that what goes on around them is IC because of the flaws they detect, instead of being flexible about those things for the sake of roleplay.
So, in conclusion, the "I, Roleplayer" attitude should be dropped. The objective of the game is that from the moment we log on until we log off, there should be uninterrupted roleplay. That means that everything that happens in-game should be but also seen as IC, and we should simply ignore or walk away from things that disrupt that. We don't have to [protest!] in-game, we just need to let go, move on and keep on roleplaying. That's the best thing we can do to protect RP. If you want to raise your voice about it, you're welcome to post a thread here, send PMs, or talk on #planeshift. Just don't be the one breaking your RP or keeping you out of events. Don't let minor things get in the way and certainly, don't make others feel inadequate becuase they used a smiley when they said hi. That is the reason why many people will see the PS community as unwelcoming and won't want to roleplay again. It's not the lack of details. It's not the GMs or Devs' fault. It's the "I, Roleplayer" attitude. It unnecessarily divides our community.
But most importantly, it's the "I, Roleplayer" attitude that keeps you from enjoying the game.
I decided to post this because the PS teams work hard to make the game more fun for the players but we often hit the "I, Roleplayer" wall and I personally find people with that attitude uneventable. And it's not exactly the people, it's the attitude that's bad and that should be changed. Just ask yourself if you've ever had attitudes like the ones described above and then ask yourself when was the last time you really enjoyed the game. A little self-assessment can help greatly.
I, Roleplayer
am uneventable.
I, Roleplayer
am unplottable.
I, Roleplayer
am untrainable.
I, Roleplayer
am unquestable.
I, Roleplayer
am killing roleplay.
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\\o//
I could not have said this better.
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/me applauds Dajoji for his good work.
nicely done!!
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Amazing! ::|
*Morla goes to think about it...
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:woot: Yet another thread that proves there are people in this community that have the players best interests at heart. It took alot of work to put this together, awesome job Dajoji! Thanks for taking the time to do this. Old players and new can learn somethings important with this post.
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...This topic killed RP.
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well spoken (written) Dajoji.
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I agree, very well-written. And it needed to be said.
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Well written yes, but most RPers get labeled as I, roleplayer just because they favor RP. If you don't believe me look at all the complainer threads, RPers get vilified as much as some RPers vilify non RPers.
I really think that things are beginning to lean out of balance on both sides of the issue. Maybe that is why WOW has separate severs, reconciling both sides is more than just a daunting task... :-\
Also, the I, roleplayer mentality might very well be a manifestation of the player's personality not the affect of losing yourself in the minutia of the RP.
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I, Awesome Player.
Agree.
Very nice Dajoji
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Dajoji thanks for saying what I think constantly! \\o//
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Contra.
Oh, I am so proud being a roleplayer. An imperfect one. A lazy one. A pain to those elite roleplayers you love to scold here...
:D
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Well said, Dajoji ! Obviously, a lot of thought went into this - I couldn't agree more.
To paraphrase a little: Don't dig trenches, build brdges!
:)
Can I go play now? There's this brilliant new update I want to explore in-game
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Glad to you've posted this Dajoji, I hope people read it and take it into consideration when there in game next.
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Both good threads...we all need to strike a balance between the two extremes presented. (Also, how do you balance OOC issues with the settings? :P )
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I, Roleplayer like to play devils advocate on the forums. :devil:
I, Roleplayer cannot stand learning mistakes ... if nobody points them out, who is learning from mistakes?
I, Roleplayer have a unique character who "wouldn't do that", "wouldn't join that", "wouldn't care about that" ... if it suits me to sit something out, why does it bother you?
I, Roleplayer had a great group of friends once but since they left, I have not seen anyone else I would be interested in roleplaying with. ... because it's not so easy to find those that don't drown out my little flickering candle with their portable spotlights.
I, Roleplayer am misunderstood, my wishes ignored, and my initiatives shut down by the PS staff and the Powerlevelers. ... I am an individual and thus a minority.
I, Roleplayer have a keen eye for inconsistencies and I shall not be part of anything flawed. ... those inconsistencies come at the cost of my immersion, which is why I need settings.
Just felt like putting some personal explanations behind Dajoji's statements.Yes, I am a Roleplayer ... be it one who knows not everyone has to be like him.
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I, Roleplayer cannot stand learning mistakes ... if nobody points them out, who is learning from mistakes?
You can point them out of course. But "I, Roleplayer" chooses to do so through public channels when they could be more tactful about it and use /tell or offer to group. That often leads to OOC arguments in main and names added to ignore lists.
I, Roleplayer have a unique character who "wouldn't do that", "wouldn't join that", "wouldn't care about that" ... if it suits me to sit something out, why does it bother you?
Does not bother me at all. If it's what your character does, knock yourself out. But people might take things too far sometimes so asking yourself if you do is not a bad idea. That is a personal thing and I do not intend to enforce my point of view. I'm just asking to keep an open mind and question ourselves every now and then.
I, Roleplayer had a great group of friends once but since they left, I have not seen anyone else I would be interested in roleplaying with. ... because it's not so easy to find those that don't drown out my little flickering candle with their portable spotlights.
True. It's not easy to make new friends. All I ask is that you keep trying through your roleplay.
I, Roleplayer am misunderstood, my wishes ignored, and my initiatives shut down by the PS staff and the Powerlevelers. ... I am an individual and thus a minority.
That's a little paranoid, don't you think? It kinda reminds me of some former member of the community who thought everyone was out there to get them... In any case, being an individual does not make you a minority by default. The notion of minority has to do with how an individual relates to others. Minorities are defined in social context, not in the individual sphere since there is no majority or dominant element to oppose to. Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority).
I, Roleplayer have a keen eye for inconsistencies and I shall not be part of anything flawed. ... those inconsistencies come at the cost of my immersion, which is why I need settings.
And you are free to walk away from them in order to protect your immersion. The "I, Roleplayer" attitude makes the player expect their immersion to be disturbed and preempt such disruption, being ready to [object] in main chat, therefore breaking their own roleplay to point out the flaws in others when they could still IC step away and continue with their roleplay somewhere else or simply ingoring that which they find flawed. Again, you are free to point out your objections but don't do so at the expense of your own RP. Use OOC private channels or off-game ones like these forums.
Just felt like putting some personal explanations behind Dajoji's statements.Yes, I am a Roleplayer ... be it one who knows not everyone has to be like him.
Being a roleplayer does not mean being an "I, roleplayer" at all and I don't think people should be labeled as I, Roleplayers either. "I, Roleplayer" is an attitude one falls into when they see themselves as the roleplayer with the right to judge all others. It is defined by one's sense of self-importance and as such it can be easily avoided. It is a matter of personal choice.
I have sometimes had I, Roleplayer attitudes and realized they were not constructive. It is based on that experience that I felt it was important to talk about it, not to point a finger and say "you, scum!", but to ask the community to reflect a bit about their own attitudes. At the end of the day, we all live with our choices whether they make us happy or not.
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All hail the Wise Dajoji!
Very well worded and you obviously put a lot of effort and thoughts into it.
But althought many parts may fit to the one or the other, it very much puts Roleplayers into a "the (bad bad) roleplayers" box.
Got to be time that someone points out that We, Roleplayers have to stick together.. ;D
Now that the Roleplayers got enlightened, someone ought to make a "I, Powerleveler" thread..
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I, Powerleveler need to train my skills.
today I did some thousand kills.
I have no time for chat to lose,
for your Roleplayer's amuse.
Give me rewards and I will join your plot,
even thought, your story I esteem not.
Why dequip my swords, I'll use them soon again.
Soon I'll have another rank and loot to sell...
...Amen.
:devil:
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Well it's your definition so I won't argue about the I, Roleplayer of this topic but I still have my doubts about how many of these extreme cases we actually have among the player base. A handful maybe ... but the thing is, these few are the only ones standing out. A roleplayer that uses tells to advice people or just walks away when they don't like a certain situation won't be spotted by anyone. They don't get noticed but they definitely outnumber the I, Roleplayers in my experience. That actually was my, a bit too, concealed point of my previous post.
Of course it's never bad to make people think a bit. Better safe than sorry eh ::)
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Like I said: "I, Roleplayer" is not the same as "Roleplayer", the "I," part is the thing that we should try to drop. And it's true, there are probably not many people like that out there but the attitudes can be more common independently than you know. The good thing is that if we are aware of their consequences, we can avoid them.
Got to be time that someone points out that We, Roleplayers have to stick together.. ;D
I like that: We, Roleplayers. It's a different concept from "I, Roleplayer" though, not the sum of many. I'd even say it opposes it. I guess that's why I like it. :)
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Zan... You are correct that the tactful "Roleplayer" is not nearly as visible in-game or on the forums as the "I, Roleplayer". The problem I see, is that the "I, Roleplayer" mentality is VERY vocal on the forums. I personally have not encountered it in-game.
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Well the forums are a bit of a different topic ... on here you have to be loud if you want to have any hope of getting your point across. Since we both don't see them in-game ... that must mean we're all great roleplayers here. We leave our real attitudes of the forums behind in-game to play our characters. :P
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Zan... You are correct that the tactful "Roleplayer" is not nearly as visible in-game or on the forums as the "I, Roleplayer". The problem I see, is that the "I, Roleplayer" mentality is VERY vocal on the forums. I personally have not encountered it in-game.
Fortunately In-Game players are balanced and don't waste time sighing. :P
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Fortunately In-Game players are balanced and don't waste time sighing. :P
Not true, they just complain to their friends in /tells. :)
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I can't say I haven't had friends complain about things in tells or guild chat... I've done the same... however, the point of the original post is that we shouldn't disrupt things in main for complaints or OOC chat. Nobody anywhere has said you can't be upset or annoyed... just that there are better ways of dealing with it than OOC chat in main or being disruptive to those around you in-game.
I like a suggestion I read about acting confused or obtuse when confronted with things that are too far removed from settings or that wouldn't make sense to your character. It takes a bit more creativity, but making the target think before reacting... and possibly going "huh?" is often worth the effort. It is also usually better received than outright criticism.
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That can be disruptive, or rude though, and can also spiral into things that make even less sense. Better just to walk away.
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The problem I see, is that the "I, Roleplayer" mentality is VERY vocal on the forums. I personally have not encountered it in-game.
Agreed Mythryndel. I have encountered it most in the forums and those I seem to not ever see those very 'I, Roleplayer' types in-game. Because of this I take most responses to my posts here that are along RP lines with a grain of salt; All responses will give some wisdom, sometimes what to do and sometimes what not to do, But learn from everyone.
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I, UtM, have learned from mistakes ... both my own and those of others. I have taught those who wished to learn, left those alone who have not. New and old players are equal in my eyes, and all make mistakes.
I, UtM have many unique characters who "wouldn't do that", "wouldn't join that", "wouldn't care about that" ... and have never felt left out. The very fact that they "wouldn't do that", "wouldn't join that", or "wouldn't care about that" means that they are already a part of what is happening by acknowledging it exists, but choosing to step aside. You do not have to be in the parade to enjoy it happening. You do not have to be at or even like parades to know that others are there and enjoying them, and find enjoyment in that, knowing they are making your community better for the things you do like.
I, UtM had a great group of friends once but since they left, I have found roleplaying every single time I have gone ingame looking for it ... and even a few times I have not. All characters, new and old, are given an equal light by me. I have no 'clique'. I do not search out only those players I know because I 'think' they will be the best to RP with. I do not have to worry about the dreaded RED Buddy List, as I never use the lists. Roleplay is where you find it.
I, UtM am misunderstood, my wishes were sometimes ignored, and my initiatives were never shut down by the PS staff and the Powerlevelers. ... I pushed the boundaries constantly, and still do, but never stepped out.
I, UtM have a keen eye for inconsistencies and feel the need to correct anything flawed. ... and now I write for PlaneShift. ;)
I, UtM, rock. :P
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Hint: Red buddy list = training time! ;D >o)
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Right.
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Or if you feel that the stats you have compliment the character you want to have already you could read.
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I don't understand these kinds of topics continue to repeat in every so called rp game, i noticed this alot in ps as well, i am new here, not having been here for more then a couple of days, i do have enough rp experience, i am by far an expert lol, i am a ok rper in my own eyes, but... the i roleplayer thing... I came to this game, apart from all others because it said, its for rp... RP GAME, mechanics and rp, its great for the most part, the guild im in, promotes inviting people who understand how to rp, and give those who don't know how a chance to learn as well, even if it is only for a specific race, I don't understand those who only grind in game, i don't find they have any business here... im talking about those who outright refuse to rp and speak oocly constantly, who's only motive to play ps is the game part.
From newbie point of view: Pro's: Rper's i've seen are nice, but not all so welcoming, some are, but takes a while to even become involved in anything, game shows so much promise, but those who make the promise of alot of rp if you read the side, well... so far i feel i've been kinda lied to =\. but again... newbie point of view, wich may scare others of my kind away
Con's: Rp shoulden't just be encouraged, i find it should be forced to some degree... im sorry if that offends some who think they should have people who don't rp in a rp game but... yeah, if you rid yourself of those only here for the mechanics system, some of you beleive you would lose a player base... you woulden't, the player base would simply shift more towards the roleplayer's side, wich... as i was led to beleive is suppose to be our main player base, or at least gaming rper, if people want to play a game for mechanics, tons of ohters games for that, but having a game where you need to rp, would seriously increase the fan base, being hte only actualy 3d game, with low enough stats, and high enough variance so any rper with a ok computer could play ( P.S. I understand there are alot of newbies who don't know how to rp, those are great when they look and learn, but... some just want to hack and slash.. and interupt others while doing so...) I do expect alot of flaming or getting this post deleted or w\e since it was kind of off topic, but newbies vues are important to!
I, Roleplaying PS newbie :P
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I agree. RP is already enforced to an extent I believe. People will be told to speak OOCly not in main or only in brackets or at least it was like that a while ago. I haven't come across much stupidity recently save for plain bad and disruptive attempts at RP.
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I don't understand why we keep having to hash this out. PS is a GAME with an RP focus. RP is encouraged, and to a certain extent required when interacting with others. However, it would be nice if there were a little less disdain for people playing the game and not just sitting around chatting the entire time they are in-game. Nobody lied to anyone. The main website is not promoting false advertising. This is a game, not a chat client. Please add your character to the landscape, bring a little more flavor to the game. However, the mechanics are there to be used too.
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I agree, less desdain. And to be consequent in this approach, as well make guilds focusing on oocish grinding or merely on finding exploits officially accepted. Frequently RPers get reminded and poked to accept players not giving a heck on RPing, and the same time though the same people scoff guild ideas focusing on anything but RPing and setting. Is it only me to see a conflict there?
It makes no sense to say on one hand "PS is there for everyone", and on the other hand mock people who create guilds not fitting the setting.
I wont get tired of it: Give Planeshift a defintion more precise than "Do whatever suits you (and keep ooc off main)!", and so much trouble would be gone. To have 2 threads nudging each RPers or non-RPers is something I can only wonder.
(And now I only wait for any offtopic smartass saying..)
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There is a false dichotomy here. The very fact that you view the mechanics as anything other than a tool for advancing RP is a bad sign.
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Of course I listed these 3(!) extremes picked from a continuous spectrum - dont be so picky but instead try reading between the lines for once.
Either you got what I tried to say, or ask for details. Or spare me your (false) implications.
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It shouldn't be a continuous spectrum. The mechanics are there not simply for their own sake but to support RP by allowing a difference of ability so as to make the game not be a chat client. I use them to maximise my rp. I don't think there is any point to making them constantly increase without using them for anything except further increase. And it isn't a false implication, it is a false dichotomy because we aren't dealing with pure chat-like rp vs. pure mechanic grinding. We are dealing with playing the game in an IC way and using the mechanics to do so vs. not rping at all and having no consistant character vs. ignoring the mechanics.
(Contrary to how it may seem to anyone stumbling across this without knowing, yes, we are in fact all playing the same game.)
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I realise this is full well a game lol, but it is an rp game, If you don't like the idea of rp, and are only here for the game, then you should realy go find a game better suited to that, im not uptight about roleplay really, i'm not arguing about only using chat, without mechanics, mechanics are cool too, there there and we should use it as yes it is a game, but it is a game meant for roleplayers correct? Not full on gamers refusing rp. Its allright to go grinding sometimes as there is no other way to improve your strengths at this point really but, it shoulden't be all you do. There is a flaw with the mechanics and the rp, wich is that, The mechanics let you be a god if you grind enough... wich in rp.. well.. just not fun to rp withw... So, basicaly... the problem is, to those people who don't rp, or don't use the system, you should be doing both here, as this is a ROLEPLAYING---GAME, But do not make yourself out as a god just because you can own anyone in hydlaa.
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My question was, why do people for instance in the Guilds forums here occasionally rip apart attempts on certain guilds when they appear to be off setting, when the same time RP officially is only encouraged, by no means enforced or demanded. Theres no need to debate wether mechanics are to support roleplay. Theres as well no need to discuss if there are people who dont include RP in their game at all. What I tried to say is, give Planeshift a more clear definition about it is a "true" rpg, instead of some hybrid (which, again, is then fought about on the forums).
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If I recall correctly RP is enforced in the main tab. If you wish to interact with others using the main tab it must be IC and therefore rping while communicating is enforced to an extent.
As for what a "true" rpg is, a game in which one is constantly IC. What more can be said?
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wow... it is really getting deep in here. It really does seem like just about every thread on this forum devolves into a debate about RP vs PL vs balance. The more I have read, the more I think it boils down to RPers don't really like the PLers because they aren't willing to put the time/effort into training their stats, because they are too busy focusing on the TRUE intent of PS, which is the almighty RP. Therefore, they cannot be as good at different skills as the PLers, and therefore it isn't fair that people who don't even RP should be better than they are. Anyone having trouble following my logic? Sorry if I lost anyone...
The only thing i can say, is that just because you sit around a bait shop and talk about fishing all day, doesn't make you a fisherman. I think that some things in-game may require a bit more grinding that is ideal for a game to be fun/enjoyable, but I am enjoying improving my ability to craft swords, for example.
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Thats Acutlay realy true Mythryndel... this is basicaly what happens
Rper= They don't train, they say things about themselves, but because of the mechanics, they can't prove it, and although they do alot of work with the story, they can't back any of it up with the mechanics and so find it unfair that they should be considered weak
Player= They train all the time, and rp rarely, they use mostly the mechanics, but in terms of rp and story, they don't try much, and they find it unfair that they are considered any less of a Ps player because they do alot of grinding to be as strong as they get, and get upset when a rper says they are just as strong without being able to prove it
Simplest solution? Rpers= Grind to the point where you reach how strong your character is suppose to be, then no one can complain about you.
Players= Stop grinding a bit, being insanely strong, just to prove your better then others is not cool, and is not possible in the setting, no one here is a god, even if your stats say you are, try to make yourself realistic eh?
Meaning= Everyone just become what your suppose to be ingame, then no one can complain :thumbup:
(Sorry for the grammer hehe, was spur of the moment due to passion for PS)
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Well put Juranian
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Exactly what I was trying to say. Make your stats compliment the character you want to have.
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Exactly, only that takes FOR-FREAKING-EVER for some characters! (Kaerli's stats and skills STILL don't quite accurately reflect the character and I've been training/developing her for many, many months! Thankfully, I can RP around it by using an IC concept of training, but for some other chars, it can be a while before they even come close to being RP-ready! Add the difficulties mages face due to the combat vs. magic imbalance to that picture Parallo...and it's pretty horrible :sorcerer: )
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Most of my characters are mages. I know what you're talking about.
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You guys are wrong. What you are describing are not Roleplayers. They are going beyond RP to Godmoding (for lack of a better word). They are ignoring the stats that the game gives them and making up their own.
I -am- a roleplayer. I play by my exact physical and ability stats. I do not train. I do not grind. I do not have anything against those who do. I simply do not have the time to waste on simple-minded grinding that is boring, tedious, and lame mechanics-wise.
Add into that that grinding is a VERY limiting path for roleplaying. To be a fighter, you have to be a ruthless killer. To be a mage, you have to be a ruthless killer. To be most other things at the moment, you HAVE to be a ruthless killer. I am not even taking mine-grinding into account to pay for that training.
Honestly, I don't wish to play the zealotic killer so completely devoted to training that he will kill anything in his path to get a little better. That is completely unrealistic on so many levels. It is simple mindless slaughter for no reason. You have to 'pretend' you are even doing any other than killing things only for your own selfish advancement. This article has some good points (though I do not agree with all of it). http://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/30/the-evil-we-pretend-to-do/ (http://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/30/the-evil-we-pretend-to-do/)
I have nothing against 'powerleveling' in games, and in fact have done it in other games where it A: Was fun. B: Made sense for the character. In PS, for me, it falls short on both counts. That is why I create a character in Character Creation (yes, I use a 'cheat sheet') as close to the character I want to play, then play by those stats as someone who is at the -exact- level they want to be.
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[..] like just about every thread on this forum devolves into a debate about RP vs PL vs balance
At least my intention was it to either call for more tolerance towards people creating off-setting-guilds (the same way they have to be tolerated ingame), or to make some clearer definitions about PS. Current description of the game may imply its quite much focused on RP, but considering some people I met, who were rather happy and eager, but soon again left since their expectations werent satisfied, perhaps it should be rewritten.
But since my suggestion was only nitpicked on, leave it aside and let me ask a question instead:
UtM, what you say is all fine and candy. I have my chars trained to their meant-to-be stats, and if the chars job/business requires it I have it fighting (mechanically) now and then. For my hunter char I try to always have some animal parts at hand. But of course I cant play him using his meant-to-have bow.
You say people should limit their RP to already available technical options, only to have their chars abilities backed up by levels?
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It is true, what UTM says, to an extent. Personally I consider Arena fighting against the humanoids as non-lethal even though it is a stretch. It is where I do most of my fighting but there are some very large problems with the game mechanics at this stage of development. I believe it will only get worse with skills slated to be unlimited.
One of the current problems with the mechanics is that it is nearly impossible to train organically. You should not have to stand in a pool of weak creatures to optimize armor training. It should have very little effect. You should be able to fight with normal weapons to train them efficiently and fight critters that are fairly well matched to do so. Lastly you should be able to generate enough money and progression points crafting to pay for more training. Someday these things will be balanced out.
Anyway this is all old ground travelled enough to be a well worn rut.
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No, I am saying you should not 'rp' that you are able to lift and wear 500 pound armor when you can't. Things that the game does not yet cover are fair game. I am also saying the training system is limiting roleplaying options.
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I know this will probebly get me flamed, but how about, in our char description, we put at the bottom of the page, Rper or Pler, that way we can avoid the crowd we don't belong to, I'm not for seperation, but it seems some people just don't want to intergrate due to the rejection of grinding or being able to rp without mechanics, now this would split the game in two probebly, but then at least the two major crowds could be happy with themselves?
And i agree with UtM, about realisitc standards, no matter how strong your mechanics are, try to respect the setting, no one is a god, please don't try to be one X-/
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You guys are wrong. What you are describing are not Roleplayers. They are going beyond RP to Godmoding (for lack of a better word). They are ignoring the stats that the game gives them and making up their own.
I am not saying that you should train to the point of being absurdly strong. In fact all my characters are underpowered on purpose. That is the level I wanted them to be. I don't want to play a god. Its unrealistic and not fun. I don't want to play a fumbling idiot (though some of my characters are but for the sake of this example we'll say I don't.) Therefore I settle on what I want to get my stats to and preform OOC actions to get them there since it is impossible to do so otherwise.
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Godmoding does not mean being a god. It is simply acting outside of your character's abilities (call it OOA? Out of Abilities.). In a way, it is as OOC as acting in a way your character would not. That is what this thread is about in a way. Roleplayers not wanting to act outside of their character's personalities to actively enter into all events. Not wanting to slaughter creatures to get stronger is the same thing. So, while it seems that many RPers are trying to avoid using the existing mechanics or not taking part in events, it is really because the mechanics do not allow the type of character they wish to play, or the events are not something they would take part in. I have been in some events, and walked away from others. The reason is that they offer variety. I can do some without stepping OOC. Mechanics do not allow that at all. There is one way to start the game, one way to train, and that is it. If you want to be the peace-loving monk who has become an expert fighter, but would never kill a thing, you do not have that choice.
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The game does give you stats. You can of course change them through training. The character creation is often difficult to get precise and is of itself an ooc method to get the character you want. Whats the harm in training oocly to do so too? Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding. It seems that we're very close to agreeing but your post was right under mine and it said "You guys are wrong."
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This thread is not about labeling the players or criticize those who don't join events or those who train.
It is about taking the time to ask ourselves how (in)flexible we are being in certain scenarios of a game in development. I applaud those who stick to their character's nature and sit events that don't fit them out, but I worry about those that cannot really roleplay with anyone because either nobody meets their standards or because they can't really RP without pointing out other players' flaws and the reason why they do not join events is not because they don't fit their characters but mostly because they know someone is not going to RP properly and that is something they cannot stand. Of course someone is not going to roleplay properly, but chances are they will get better with time. They just need to get some experience at it. The important thing is that they are trying and that we have policies to deal with them if they become disruptive.
So, this thread does not claim roleplayers are the problem. In fact, a person with an I, Roleplayer mentality opposes the roleplayer/player PS expects to have. And this thread is not about pointing the finger at anyone and how they play the game, but being self-critical and trying to avoid certain attitudes we can fall into.
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This thread is not about labeling the players or criticize those who don't join events or those who train...
So, this thread does not claim roleplayers are the problem. In fact, a person with an I, Roleplayer mentality opposes the roleplayer/player PS expects to have. And this thread is not about pointing the finger at anyone and how they play the game, but being self-critical and trying to avoid certain attitudes we can fall into.
This is the real subject of this thread which has gotten lost in the RP vs. PL argument. Thank you Dajoji the the statement "this thread does not claim roleplayers are the problem." Because too often that seem to be what ALL RPers get accused of.
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Hello all..
I can only bow to Dajo's thread.. very good one indeed.. best in months IMO..
I also read Utm & Parallo's posts and I truly agree that there are problems with the I-RPer.. Now, I believe the I-RPer is far more harmful for the game than all PLers together.
Some say they're true and devoted to the so called 'game orientation' or as Mythryndel said, "...the TRUE intent of PS, which is the almighty RP..." but sorry fellas, they are not! specially when they become a sort of I-Rper.
I collected a couple of quotes from prior posts of mine:
"RolePlay: To express your character's way to be." ..
"...the fact that to defeat an opponent the RP way is so difficult, makes it THE ONLY TRUE WAY TO DO IT FOR GOOD."
And I brought these two just to point that I agree with UtM and the critic to 'Godmoding' by putting it so clearly.. But also to remind some really bad and annoying self-declared RPers that a char can be killed a thousand times but the player can be defeated just a couple of times via his character.. and that can only be done through a good roleplay. The rest is just a fight hobby inside the game.
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Parallo, no, that was not addressed to you. I was disagreeing with the definition of RPers as extremists that ignore game stats and 'text' everything. I completely agree that you should RP by your ingame stats.
The game does give you stats. You can of course change them through training. The character creation is often difficult to get precise and is of itself an ooc method to get the character you want. Whats the harm in training oocly to do so too?
No harm in it at all... if you can tolerate it. I just don't like doing it. I have tried before. Honestly, it makes me hate the game and not want to play at all, so I avoid it by creating characters that do not need to be trained. Am I missing out on characters of 'higher' level? Yes. But to me, it is simply not worth going through the depression-inducing grinding to get to that point. I don't want to hate playing that character by the time I get it to where I want it.
The point of my "I, UtM" post is that though I consider myself to be a devoted roleplayer, I accept many ways of playing the game that others enjoy, as long as I am not forced to do those that would go against my character's nature.
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Ah, I see now that we are actually almost totally in agreement. Just that I have more patience :P
Its probably just the fact that I have so many books lying next to me that allows me to train to the way below average level that I do.
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I was not trying to derail the thread, just commenting on how we were digressing to the age-old argument again. I am, mostly, in agreement with UtM and those that feel that grinding is mindless and boring. Where I differ, is that I feel that some benefits in game are worth it. I do not have a maxed out character, even though I could achieve it in a couple more weeks of effort. I find that I only attain that which my character needs to advance his interests. He has slain many critters, and has become a formidable swordsman. He has dabbled in a few other weapons as well. Also, now he is becoming a crafter of swords. I do not cook though, or clean or do windows. :)
Maybe there can be a better balance achieved over the next couple of major updates to reduce the monotony of grinding to make character development more palatable across player-types.
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:o (I am scary about all this truth :P) You're right, I admit it.