PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Donari Tyndale on July 24, 2008, 02:41:57 pm
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I, Noob
I do not care about settings,
I am immortal,
I played longer than you,
I've pwned them all,
I am chaotic neutral,
I follow no god,
And I flock around golden labels,
I, Noob,
Am better than you.
The idea entered my head spontaneously as I read a certain other thread. I do agree with a few points of Dajoji, however, not with most of them. What worries me is the still same outline of every roleplay plot out there. Basically, there are two options. #1, it is a player run roleplay event, which has little or almost no participation due to it being always the same people that spend their time helping out or involving their characters. I call them roleplayers. #2, it is a GM event, where GMs have problems in handling the sheer masses of participants. I do not think that is because of the superiority of their plot. A GM once told me that they ran an event without the special name labels, and guess what, no one gave a shit.
Now, let me outline what I call the "I, Noob" attitude which is still out there mostly due to us. Noobs need to be taught how to roleplay, otherwise they group among themselves and isolate themselves. This has happened far too often, just do a /who and take a look at the guildnames.
- I, Noob have played PS longer than you. I do hear this so often, and every time I hear it it makes me feel sick. Noobs feel they have earned their share of respect by grinding platinum, gold and platinum again for years. The amount of time their brain shut off and they spend grinding gives them experience and makes them perfect...NOT. Sadly, this is even used by people who really should know better, they honestly think that the time they spent playing made them better than others. People should always be willing to learn new things, even old players, even roleplayers make mistakes now and then. All except me, of course :P
- I, Noob know settings by heart and have read the website every day and know all books.Great. But sadly, this is often used as an excuse to back up crappy stories or plots. No, your character is no unknown race that fell down from the upper world. No, your character does not come from a land behind a portal. No, your character may not bend the laws of genetics and change from an Ylian to an Enkidukai through his genes. If your story violates settings, it is void. It should not be continued for the sake of fun. Others may feel to do the same, and honestly, Xil has to ask himself what he is creating settings for if such things happen. Settings are supposed to be guidelines for our roleplay, and players may not change these guidelines without consent. If you want to do such a thing, you should try and ask. Settings Devs aren't man eating monsters, well, most of them aren't.
- I, Noob go out of my way to join a GM event. This is another aspect that worries me. Noobs joining a GM event for the reward and a glimpse of fame. Yes, it makes your character rock if he carries a wooden staff, one that every character should be able to have, but which hasn't been implemented yet to keep it special. Yeah, special. It marks people as noobs. As soon as a golden label is spotted, a wave of communication is unleashed and every noob knows within seconds that a GM event is going on. Since they have no roleplay disrupting character personality and often associate themselves with their character they get godly powers. They may jump in a pool of water in full armor, and since drowning isn't implemented yet they don't need to care. They may walk through grates since the wall is bugged and they may even ignore crossbows pointed at them since those are neither implemented. A GM event these days involves fighting, and that is what the noobs can do. Roleplayers suck since they care about such things as details to get a nice athmosphere. Who needs details and a good plot if they can fight and are rewarded for that?
- I, Noob am a free spirited individual and my character is the same. Honestly, every who can apply this to his character should leave the game. Your character isn't you, he is a role. You may of course play an atheist or a liberalist, but you need to be aware of the impact this role has on the environment. There are gods in Yliakum. Being an atheist means to reject facts, and thus makes your character an outcast. At least it should, even those that think gods aren't top priority for their characters. Yliakum is a deeply religious society with gods that aid the sentient beings. Furthermore, democracy and such things do not exist in Yliakum. The Octarchy is a bunch of absolute rulers that inherit their position. And yes, America would have bombed Yliakum back to the stone age because of that. The fun of roleplay is to play different characters and their behaviour, it is like acting if done right. You act in the role of your character, not the other way round.
- I, Noob think you are a roleplay nazi. This is another tearm I hear often. Very often. Partly it may be due to my nature, partly because noobs feel the need to save their last bit of dignity if their plot gets torn to bits. Sometimes I am too harsh, I admit that. This doesn't mean you can throw the phrase at others and defend your crappy plot with it. I think this somehow invokes Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law) and makes you loose the discussion. If you are told your plot lacks detail or violates settings, you should consider changing it. I know it requires effort. A lot of effort. But it maximises the fun you experience. Furthermore, details are important. Think of it like a painting or a good book. If you happen to stumble upon a small detail you missed so far, it feels good. Otherwise you could stick to simple squares as art and children's books. It even spread to the GM level, this sentence. We don't need details, we just want to have fun in the event. Right. You're having fun. But what about the roleplayers?
I think that the amount of noobs in game was a problem and is still a problem. No good old times. There may have been less noobs back then due to the smaller amount of players. However, this leads to another problem. More and more noobs isolate themselves and refuse to interact with the roleplayers. I think we need to work on this, together, as a community. We can change things. GMs and Devs got to accept that this problem is there and need to work on it. It isn't as if noobs are a thing you need to live with, since every human can change. And we should help them change.
I, Noob,
Am eventable.
I, Noob,
Have a plot that pwnzs.
I, Noob,
Have maxed all stats.
I, Noob,
Got a walkthrough.
I, Noob,
Do not even care to kill RP.
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I agree with everything you have written in this... time to change things I guess :P
Back to PS to teach noobs how to RP!
[or send them to Runescape :)]
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In the good old times we were all noobs still discovering roleplay. Since then many of us have evolved ... naturally not all of us in the same way. Evolution and growth is personal but it also needs a community to act as a catalysator. I think it's that last effect we're forgetting sometimes lately.
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Now this is what I can agree with. :P
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Good points, Donari. I agree that many players do not care about consistency and that they play their characters led by OOC motivations rather than the ones they should have IC. However, there is one premise in your analysis that I don't agree with:
"I, Noob", implies a realization of self. "I, Noob" embraces an identity and as such, unites all individuals who identify with it. "I, Noob" means those you call "noob" own up to it. And they don't. They are not separating themselves from the rest. It is you who is calling them "noob", it is you who is grouping them in a faction different from yours. It is you who is distancing yourself from them.
That does not invalidate your arguments except for the one that claims that they choose to be separated. That is questionable. Do they stay apart because you call them noobs or because they are? In any case, for all instances, I suggest you replace all your I, Noob's for You, Noob.
All the rest of your arguments I agree with:
- Players should not join events for OOC reasons.
- Players should not look for plot ideas outside the boundaries of settings.
- Players should know the difference between IC and OOC.
- Players should not judge each other by the way they choose to enjoy the game, and if someone breaks any of the game rules and policies, GMs are to handle the situation.
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To me if your role play is broadly scripted from the get go you are not really role playing. You are merely improvising actors. You can play it up all you want but you still have to stand at that mark after that cue. If you are role playing you are autonomous and what happens when is uncertain but dictated by the role you and the others are playing. I do not get involved in complicated events neither player not GM. That neither makes me better nor worse. I just go with the flow. Perhaps I am splitting hair.
I am immortal well yes, yes I am, generally speaking. And so are you. Would you participate in a role play that gave Donari the true death? not likely. I think it is not impossible but that you would be extremely reluctant.
I am chaotic neutral What does this even mean? According to the traditional D&D sources it means you are insane but I never played it that way. To me it always meant a changeable moral compass largely influenced by whimsical self interest. Flaky or flighty without too much consideration for what is right or wrong. I actually think this applies to most people though they convince themselves otherwise. Anyway there are no alignments in PS so you are free to play what you want.
It has been some time since I saw a golden label, the last few time I interacted with GMs I never saw them at all as they remained invisible. Of course I do not get involved with events.
Not everybody needs to be deeply religious. Even with "Real Gods" in the game. Many people will give lip service to one or the other, some may even be ardent believers but nobody should expect divine intervention on a day to day basis. The thing about religion is that most people only have it when the chips are down. Sure Dakkru takes a bit of your soul for passing through the Death Realm but enforcing religious belief is largely unimplementable. If you do not follow God X you cannot return to life? Oh, well then I'll do the game mechanic things to mark me as worshiper of X and do whatever the hell I want after that. How does that sound?
have a plot that pwnzs What makes you the arbiter of player pwnzsage? All that says is that the person who created said plot likes it a lot and doesn't care if you disagree. Sounds to me pretty much what you are saying, too. There may well be some justification to your opinion such as violations of the settings, but very little is set in stone and of course Gods can cause anything to happen should the developers deem it appropriate. Just because this set of developers has mindset A doesn't mean that the developers 5 years from now might not embrace mindset B. I recall a time when the idea of undead was emphatically rejected whereas it now seems to be embraced somewhat. I personally have seen necromancer mobs in the game, not lately but if they are not involved in manipulating the dead they are inappropriately named. Of course that could have been someones idea of a joke.
Maxed stats? well what else are you gonna do with the money and pp's you get from actually playing the game instead of playing around in the game?
got a walkthrough well I play games to relax and have fun. Thinking too hard is work. I'll try to do the quests but sometimes they do not fit my mindset or require things my character should know but I do not. At least I am trying to engage with the game. Sure some people will not try first and their results will be only as good as their cheat sheet and this is to what you are really referring.
I, Noob think that your way of playing is not the only way and to suggest otherwise is to embrace the elitism you try to reject with the term Noob.
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Everyone who ever played any online game was playing a role. Noob, Roleplayer, Powerleveller, Grinder, Atheist, Anti-Settings, Anti-Roleplayers, Wizard, Bum, Drunk, Hobo, Crank, Newbie, GM, Dev. You are all the social (and technological) experiment that is PS. Be excellent to each other!
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I mostly agree with you, but I think that you are overly harsh. One of my favorite things Dajoji said is that it is more disruptive to explain to people IG why their RP is faulty than faulty RP is in the first place. Sure, we can discuss various RP campaigns on the forums and you can discuss whether they fit the settings and you can state your thoughts and why you are obtaining (politely, of course). But in-game it is much better to simply walk away from any RP you find fault with. Otherwise you are being more disruptive then are the offending RP'ers.
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Speaking using alignments: Donari, you expect Chaotic to align with Evil and Lawful to align with Good. Not the case in some cases. I'd characterize Kaerli as Chaotic Neutral drifting towards Chaotic Good and back to Chaotic Neutral at times (due to her strong self-righteousness). Also, this has been getting better over time, but scripted GM and player events often have trouble dealing with someone trying to take the event and pull a 180 with it, even if it is IC for that particular character to do that (if Kaerli caught Aldaaren babbling about anywhere outside the town gates, she'd run him through a minute quick).
Also, there's plenty of fun plottage to be had within settings. If I wrote up how the Stronwylles and the Strongwills got along, it'd be hilarious! :D (think Cunninghams + Coninghams if you've read To Kill a Mockingbird). Also, Kaerli's not immortal in the "never goes to the DR" sense, it's that she's been taught/learned for herself practically every nook n' cranny of that place! (She drops by there to learn the Dark Way too, so that helps.)
Also, I didn't need a walkthrough for the tutorial. Some of the more complicated quests take help though, especially when you aren't good at trying to read a settings dev's mind or trying to get a line exactly the way the settings dev wrote it (complete with typos :P).
BTW: somebody needs to give the gosh-darn numbers we've got for stats and skills some bloody MEANING! It'd be a ton easier to RP with stats if they did...
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Alignments and role play are not deeply connected.
"I, Noob", implies a realization of self. "I, Noob" embraces an identity and as such, unites all individuals who identify with it. "I, Noob" means those you call "noob" own up to it. And they don't. They are not separating themselves from the rest. It is you who is calling them "noob", it is you who is grouping them in a faction different from yours. It is you who is distancing yourself from them.
Almost believed you agreed with me when I claim we shouldn't distinguish roleplayer from player in a role paly game.
I, Roleplayer
Until I saw this, which clearly says you don't.
There is no such thing as different types of players in PlaneShift. We're all roleplayers (i.e. players) and we all start out like noobs. We have a tutorial that teaches people about PS, including how to RP I hope (haven't created any characters yet); we have moderators that try to make sure people aren't being disruptive (i.e. abusing: OOC chat, "controlling" other characters in emotes, having ridiculous descriptions, etc.) and we have a Setting Team that pushes the setting forward.
If these three work in conditions, then everything is right. If they don't, then we need to change them. We're in an Alpha version of the game, so it's pretty normal that plenty of stuff doesn't work that well yet. How can we make things better? Simple: by handing out opinions, rather than being annoyed. And the people in charge can help out by giving their own opinions and not being annoyed.
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If the system is going to be a roleplay system, then it ALL has to be RP. RPs must modify any and all other RPs when they intersect IG. Coherent IG meaning must be extracted from any RP that is not up to muster (in the eye of the beholder), and the characters must react, interact, or disengage in an accordingly IC manner. To speak OOC of RP in game is to sunder the very foundation of the world. Now, this is not easy, for the settings is very different from most of the concepts of fantasy worlds that most people will understand, and the pitfalls are many for the novice. I always thought that an appropriate response to anti-settings RP was confusion on the part of the character. Not OOC criticism, and especially not taking it to main channels or into IRC. No brackets, no criticism. Confusion, befuddlement, mystification. Any character should have a few stock phrases that they would utter when faced with something that is outside their experience, unfamiliar to them, or simply nonsensical to them. Critiques of RP are definitely OOC IG IMHO. And ultimately, alignments are nothing but descriptors of behavior. Substitute whatever labels you like, there is a spectrum to character behavior and there will always be ways of describing it, and breaking it into factions.
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I do no think noobs isolate themselves. However, we did not integrate them. If a noob, an inexperienced roleplayer, is among his kind, he does not see the need to change his behaviour, and that is what we as a community need to work on.
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Exactly. By not creating silly divisions. We acknowledge that players need to roleplay and we acknowledge that the system is there to be used. If the system doesn't support our expectations, we give our opinion. There is already a defined way of roleplaying which consists of not annoying other players and keeping in character. This is kept in check by the moderators. The /ignore functions also allows you to ignore anyone you think is not role playing accordingly, so if you don't agree with them, you don't need to bother with them.
What we need is to reinforce our opinion on where we think the system is lacking, in a continuous way and we should get plausible responses from the developer team why this should or not be developed or if it is or not a priority.
Making a fuss wakes people up, but it's not solid enough by itself. Plus, it has been done over a million times.
What we don't need is having people perpetuate the notion that there is a group of self-assumed elite roleplayers and a group of I-want-to-be-free grinders. There are hundreds of different people with different opinions, though some may be similar, and the developer team will keep trying to please this varied community while keeping with their plans. Those who are happy with the current state say so, those that think PS still has potential should give their opinion on how it can get better and those that don't think it has should just leave. Wait. That's exactly what currently happens.
So enough of this already.
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Then you have the people who roleplay grinding, like me :P
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I'm with Sangwa on both threads.
Opinions are voiced, praise and disagreements shared .. now are we done stereotyping eachother? :P
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But if we are arguing on this thread... the rest of the forums are free from going off-topic to discuss this... right!?!?