PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xillix Queen of Fools on August 02, 2008, 10:35:48 pm
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This is a discussion ONLY, developers will NOT be in anyway bound by the results of this poll. Please do not flame it or it will go away.
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Yes. Not much more I can say.
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Yes because you can also be the child of a Vigesimi via character creation.
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Yes, but they should be chosen. And it should be made clear that not any player can just create a new character and say "Hey! I'm a Vigesimi!"
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Yes because more player player interaction is required.
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Give some reason to your votes, right now it looks like nobody has put any thought towards this
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yes but I think it should be a char skin that different players could use. perhaps a job that could be held for a month givin to the better rpers in the game. then rotated so many could have the chance to play such a high rated char
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One needn't put much thought to it. The pros are obvious. It would be fun and it would create more interesting rping oppertunities. It therefore is a question of why not rather than why.
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Yes, but they should be chosen by a (monthly?) election.
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I highly doubt you will convince Xillix and Talad to drastically change the game with "why not?" ;)
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Its not that that will convince them. Its when we see that the pros are numerous and the cons aren't and the few cons that people may be able to come up with are easily argued against and refuted.
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Noo! :o People who has to know my opinion on this know it already
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Yes, since it would bring the "Politics and economy" spoken about on the http://hydlaa.com/ (http://hydlaa.com/) page. Elections could be a gm event. \\o//
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Sure, it'd add more life to the world.
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Not that Farren would give a one-eyed-rat's tail about elections, but his player thinks this would be a good idea for giving a more RP immersive feel to the game. He's also not sure when he started referring to himself in the third-person o.O
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no, not at this time. the game mechanics aren't anywhere set up for the support they would need in order for a player to control a seat of that type of power.
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While I vote yes I still agree with Neko. Player Vigesimi being found would be lots of fun and obviously stimulate a lot of roleplays. But the player wouldn't have all the power that should come with the job because of game mech limits. For example, less the player waits for GM's or other special players to get on and roleplay guards they've got no protection. They wouldn't be able to just call a bunch of NPC guards or something...To tell the truth the only real roleplay they would start would be player to player, not changing the world whatsoever(or it would be one really long gm event but then those changes are basically gm caused :P ). It would be the same if everyone in the game just decided to pick one person and start claiming them Vigesimi.
So why do I vote yes? For the very fact that it might just fail horribly. :P Possibly by making it happen you'll know whether you truly want it in the future or not. Maybe it will give everyone a better idea on what mechanics could help players in politics. Maybe it will be such a mess that it will be decided for players to never be able to enter politics. Maybe a player Vigesimi won't change rp at all. Then you know not to make it happen again or think about how to make it have an impact on rp.
Its like the introduction system in my opinion. To most players I talked to about it when it was around they thought of it like a big waste of time. To me it was good that you kept it around, even if players were just ignoring it. The best way to work out the bugs is by testing the idea, not by letting the idea sit around. You'll never find the bugs that way :P
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I voted no. The game is not mature enough to make this work, in my opinion. I think that, regardless of the assertions that arguments against this would be easily refuted, there is a significant chance for bias and favoritism. As much as the RP-only crowd is clamoring for this, I can see lots of decrees being made regarding the terrible PLers. If they can have a real effect on the game, that would be even worse than if they just get /worldshout and blast people just because they can.
What is the point of the position? Is it just to give more options to the RP crowd? Will they be able to do anything special? Will they be able to refuse a challenge/duel? I could be convinced to change to a yes vote, but not easily. I think that only someone trusted should be given the level of power/influence suggested by the title. Which at this stage of development means a dev of one variety or another.
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I voted no. The game is not mature enough to make this work, in my opinion. I think that, regardless of the assertions that arguments against this would be easily refuted, there is a significant chance for bias and favoritism. As much as the RP-only crowd is clamoring for this, I can see lots of decrees being made regarding the terrible PLers. If they can have a real effect on the game, that would be even worse than if they just get /worldshout and blast people just because they can.
What is the point of the position? Is it just to give more options to the RP crowd? Will they be able to do anything special? Will they be able to refuse a challenge/duel? I could be convinced to change to a yes vote, but not easily. I think that only someone trusted should be given the level of power/influence suggested by the title. Which at this stage of development means a dev of one variety or another.
Your problem is your thinking the person picked is going to be an 'rper' and automatically try to just put down 'plers'. Firstly, I doubt that a person like this would get picked for the reason that the rules don't say you can't just level all day. If someone was picked and started doing things to make levelers upset I doubt the devs/gms would be happy with him/her. I highly doubt this is being done to give more power to roleplayers. In fact, you shouldn't even think of it that way. Its being done to give more power to players period. Whether you consider yourself a 'pler' or 'rper' you can benifit.
I voted no. The game is not mature enough to make this work, in my opinion. I think that, regardless of the assertions that arguments against this would be easily refuted, there is a significant chance for bias and favoritism.
Just wanted to comment on this specifically. Firstly, the game will never be mature enough. Fact is, when it comes down to it there will always be someone who speaks against change. No one is ever ready for it. The only way the game will ever become mature and accept it is if we push change on them. Usually works that way with people in real life too :P
Of course there will be favortism and bias. I see no problem with that whatsoever as long as the person picked isn't being specifically bias to the 'rper' or 'pler' clique. The Vigesmi can take a few guilds and say 'Those are the people I want to roleplay with' and be done with it for all I care. He/she can give them all the perks and give the rest of us nothing. And truth be told thats what happens in real life too. Powerful figures are bias. They will 'mingle' with everyone but restrict anything real to their own cliques. People are naturally like that and I see no reason the IC players of planeshift shouldn't be too.
To go along with that would probably be some rules of course. For example, the selected player wouldn't be able to ignore other players just because they assume them to be or they are apart of an undesirable OOC clique. Of course, anyone they feel is just a disturbance of rp could easily be dismissed because rules say that no matter who you are you shouldn't disturb rp. And while they would have to be strict and stick to the settings they also would have to be open (not an 'rp nazi') and understand that not everyone roleplays or learned to roleplay the same.
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convince Xillix
I am not that illusionated to believe Xillix could be convinced by any means other than his own opinion - players playing a Vigesimi? What powers mechanically would they be granted?
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I am conflicted by this idea. In theory it is not anything more than what has been talked about in the past. The :devil: is of course in the details.
Great Googley Woogley ( (http://web.ncf.ca/cr502/great_googley_woogley.gif)!) I cannot vote without further explanation.
I think it is probably inevitable.
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My issue isn't with change, but with the potential for abuse. I will assume that this is largely for the RP crowd or settings or whatever. I don't think that this was proposed as a way to "reward" PLers. I assume, that this is in the same vein as the Approved Guilds concept. Xillix, please correct me if this is a wrong assumption. If they have GM powers or something similar, then they should have some accountability to the settings team. If they have accountability to the settings team, then they aren't just a random player that gains this position. Again, I am not opposed to change. I just don't see change for the sake of change to be a good path to take.
Can a player challenge the "player Vigesimi" for the position? Can any player gain this position? How many seats will there be for players to hold? What powers will they have? These are all questions that have to have answers before they can be implemented.
BTW... other games will have players hold positions of authority, but most games that do this also hand select the players that are going to fill them. That is kinda how things are here already with the settings teams and devs. How would a GM be different from a "Player Vigesimi"? How would the settings team/devs deal with someone who abused their position? Would there be a minimum time requirement to be in-game if you hold this position? What happens if you gain this position and leave PS? When does your seat open up?
This is a very simple question, with many complicated issues to figure out. I am not just being a naysayer, or afraid of change. I just simply don't think the game is ready to hand the reigns over to the players, both from a project maturity level and a game mechanics level.
I like the concept of players being able to change the environment, I just don't see that happening any time soon, and I would much prefer to be able to not get stuck or stamina drained, or have Akkaio Central flickering before I start worrying about this. I still think that it is too early to try to implement this, and still vote No.
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I am starting to think this fits in with the Octarchal crackdown. Are the GM/dev team going to personify the octarchs and give instruction to their Vigesimis? I am guessing this would be the intent. Are you considering this kind of player lieutenant for the lawless crew as well? It is beginning to look like it :)
One thing I wonder about is if you already have the positions filled for the towns would these player Vigesimis be responsible for the wilds, share responsibility for the cities, both or replace the NPCs, which I think unlikely. I do not recall what the hierarchy is like but it is one Octarch per level and a Vigesimi per population cluster, right? Amidson is responsible for Hydlaa and East Hydlaa(?) but not the winch, Ojaveda's V is quarantined, Gugrontid's is the young'n at the top of the heap and there is one for the Bronze Doors. What does that leave at the moment?
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I vote yes. Having player officials naturally creates the potential for abuse, but so long as the elections are controlled by both GMs and Settings, I see no real problem. To answer Duraza's point, no, you wouldn't want the position to be used as a "weapon" against the other group of players, but the post, I feel, should be given to an individual who does RP and stay within the limits of his/her character. The boundaries of such an official need to clearly distinguish character from player, to avoid this potential, and such an individual should focus on interaction and RP (otherwise, the purpose of player Vigesmi is denied), so would in my mind need to be some sort of RPer. I am not trying to separate the two groups, but such a player would need to have a defined character, and focus on interaction, rather than the actual mechanics of the game.
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Can a player challenge the "player Vigesimi" for the position? Can any player gain this position? How many seats will there be for players to hold? What powers will they have? These are all questions that have to have answers before they can be implemented.
Sure there are answers to those questions, I just don't know them.
My issue isn't with change, but with the potential for abuse.
What I don't understand is why care about the 'potential for abuse'? :P No matter what you do there will always be potential for someone to abuse powers when they are given powers. I understand your worried more about OOC abuse (pler vs rper) than IC abuse but that problem isn't ever going to disappear unless planeshift declared itself to be specifically 'rper' or 'pler'. Since I doubt it will my guess is that someone who considers themself both 'rper' and 'pler' (in other words, player :P ) and give them all the power. They could easily abuse the power and help plers as much as they could rpers. Like I said, why care? They will just as easily be able to abuse the power when PS is finished by my bet just cause its power.
Edit: And just a question I wanted to throw in there. What are you really worried about that the Vigesimi would do? Tell Plers that they can only kill an NPC once a day? I don't think that anyone who will abuse the powers will be picked for the reason that I bet the devs/gms will be watching. If they misuse their powers OOCly they wlll probably lose the position. You describe Plers as non rpers (since you make them seperate :P ) so I don't see what effect rp would have on them since they don't care anyways.
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I like the sound of this. Makes the world less static and the government really should be more with the way the cities are. Like Prolix said, it goes along with the crackdown in the effort to make the government seem more present.
A bunch of people keep talking about elections. I was under the impression that the position was inherited or at least appointed by the old Vigesimi or Octarch. (Meet the Dome Vigesimi Part One in Jayose reads like this is the case but does not say it flat out). Therefore, appointing the Vigiesimi would be completely handled by settings staff rather than a player election, so they most definitely would answer to the settings team. I'd actually like to see if appointed, by the gm team, the player having the option of making a new character for the position that is a relative of the previous Vigesimi.
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Yes, I think that there should be. It would be more....RP-like. NPC Vigesimi are helpless, I mean, we use them only for quests...But, anyways, I don't like to be involved in political matters :P
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Yes, but the player should be chosen wisely and be bound to strict rules. The position comes along with power which should not be abused.
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Yes, but there are no game mechanics in place to give him any real power, so people may as well ignore the fact or don't see a point in supporting/electing/or whatelse, because it is unclear what and if there would be any censequances.
Yes, but obviously not anyone can be a Vegesimi. It would have to be someone with wide setting knowledge and a player with charisma i gues.
IMO important positions should e given to players, because otherwise they will give a damn about that is the goverment and if there is any at all. The guilds will be a real acting organ and important people from these. Because interacting with players is fun, while with computer it is repetative and finally boring.
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I care about a lot of things because of who I am, and because i can see past the end of my nose. If there is a general election, and assume it is a wide open popular vote. Given the relatively few players on, it would only take 10 - 15 people with 5 - 10 characters (accounts) each to stuff the ballot box. Then, if they are given GM powers, as opposed to limited powers that don't exist yet, then they can hand out all kinds of goodies to their friends and companions. They can also /reposition anyone that upsets or offends them, and that is the least offensive thing I can think of that they could do. This is not the type of thing that will just blow over if it happens either. People tend to hold a grudge for a while. If this is not approached in a methodical and practical way, then this is doomed to failure.
If the powers are more limited, and the person is appointed by the settings/gm team, then they have some actual accountability, as a person not a character, and there would be repercussions beyond just losing their position. I could sweet talk all day long in character just to get votes, and then turn out to be a real... um... fill in favorite expletive here. That happens in politics all the time, but this is a game and we are here to have fun, not replicate real life. Just because something happens in real life does not mean that it has to, or should, happen here in PS.
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Mythryndel, this is just a game... :) More than likely they wouldn't have GM powers otherwise they would just have a current GM do it. Secondly, it's not like you are likely to lose much by having a player as vigesimi. It's not like you paid money and could lose funds. ;)
Obviously there would be a certain amount of accountability otherwise it wouldn't be considered. The Devs don't trust us that much. ;D And in the event the person is a you know what, just use /ignore. I'm sure you wouldn't be absolutely obligated to participate in RPs with them.
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The whole point, or so I have read on other topics, and assumed applied to this one... is to have a player be able to affect settings. If there is no actual authority to the position, then what is the point at all?
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Not necessarily. Most leaders do nothing more than make the history books. Not every leader or politician does anything particularly memorable. If anything this is just to get players more involved as involved players care more about the game.
If everything changed the settings, I doubt Xillix would have time to plan anything else since he would be busy rewriting the settings constantly. This is why elections shouldn't be held monthly as then all other vigesimi would be in power on average for a considerable longer time causing a inconsistency.
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Then, outside of it being against settings, why wouldn't someone simply claim a position in the gov and play the part? Unless there is some point to it, as in a lasting effect on the game, then who cares?
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My first act as Vigesimi would be to commission a statue of myself in the main gathering point for the territory I would be responsible for. Then I would hire a mage guild to keep an apprentice in the area to shoot any flying critter that tried to dishonor it. Further I would recruit a cadre of spies to keep a close eye on the people to ensure anyone speaking ill of me received my justice.
It is a good thing I do not want the job. Of course volunteers for the position ought not to be considered suitable. The proper person is one who has to be drafted by an Octarchal press gang.
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Then, outside of it being against settings, why wouldn't someone simply claim a position in the gov and play the part? Unless there is some point to it, as in a lasting effect on the game, then who cares?
The settings and the game moderation are the biggest reason why someone wouldn't do that. And it is for the sake of RP. It may not affect the settings but it can affect characters themselves. Which is also the lasting effect. The story lines created then will more than likely be remembered by players if not the settings.
It's like cooking. I can't sell most of what I make, can't eat it and if I could it probably wouldn't raise stats. but I cook anyway because my character loves to cook for people and we RP the meal. RP can make stuff that is mechanically useless and not earth shattering meaningful. :)
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I'll just have to wait for a more detailed official definition of "Player Vigesimi" then. What I envision, and what others do appears to be at odds. Until such time as we get a better definition, I still vote No, and will respectfully disagree as to the point of things if there is no in-game authority associated with the post.
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Lolitra prepares to go throught the voting process - not something she is used to doing... being a monarch to her own lands. [heheheh]
[Sometimes I feel the world is getting far too serious]
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There wouldn't be voting, there is no democracy. Republik is what at beats we have. The ones who vote would be those at power.
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Oh, oh, I know... 'Approved Guild' guild leaders vote for the player vigesimi >.> Oh, and Vigisimi really should have any special powers such as a GM has. I think first there should be a guard and maybe jail system, so if someone disobeys a vigesimi or attempts to harm them in any RP, they can order the guards to arrest that person >.>
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I voted 'yes', as I think having players in such roles - as a back-up to NPC's - would be a huge advance in terms of RP. As I see it - and ignoring the questing role they play - the NPC's are more or less a kind of 'crutch' to be used as long as the community is too small to allow such in-world stratification of PS society. After that, they should serve as a 'safety net' to ensure playability during those times when certain individuals are not online. But I would always prefer to deal with a 'live' character over a NPC, as the RP is then only bound by imagination and time.
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The less difference there is between NPC and player characters the better!
As for the voting .. keep in mind that Vigesimi is a hereditary position and also a lifelong one. Elections occur and I wouldn't mind seeing one here but monthly or regular elections make no sense with the current settings. Also keep in mind that in a world like Yliakum there would be a lot of corruption, manipulation and cheating going on in any election. If we have a vote I'd like to see illegal options to increase one's chance to win. :P
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Lifelong, eh? does that mean it ends with a trip to the DR or would they get to resume their post on any return to the realm of the living...? Given that a DR sojourn is supposed to be a possibly long term event,days, weeks, or even longer, how long would it take for a replacement to be called for?
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I'd say if they have died and people know about it a successor will be elected .. so they better make it back to the realm of the living before that successor is appointed. Of course if you're going to kill a vigesimi, you better do it right the first time and make sure this can't happen. :P
You make a good point though, settings will need to come up with an answer for situations like this.
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Lifelong, eh? does that mean it ends with a trip to the DR or would they get to resume their post on any return to the realm of the living...? Given that a DR sojourn is supposed to be a possibly long term event,days, weeks, or even longer, how long would it take for a replacement to be called for?
Maybe someone could target a Vigsemi, and do an /assassinate command. This opens up a duel between the vigsemi and the assassins. However, at this point, there is open pvp within a small area around the Vigsemi. Anyone that falls in this area permi-dies... Could open up rps for assassins, or organizatons to remove disliked rulers, as well as make people think twice about such a thing.
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Yes, only if there is an elective process (or GM appointment) and a system of accountability to keep players using the position to enhance RP rather than abusing it. It could be a minor GM position of sorts, allowing someone to take an active role in maintaining a governmental presence in the game.