PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Kaityra on August 12, 2008, 04:21:30 pm
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Hello!
I really appreciate the effort that a GM puts into making any event but I personally think that this event is a slap in the face of anyone trying to play a rogue in this game. Sorry, but I think it is quite easy for a GM to give uber powers, e.g. appearing out of nowhere and disappear again at will or being able to freeze people, to any character he/she "plays". And now let's have a look at the abilities a player rogue has...nothing. But hey...I can just walk up to a character and state that I just appeared out of nowhere but I guess this would be called godmodding then, right?
With kind regards
Kaityra
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Hehe.... I gave up on playing a rogue because of lack of mechanics and the fact that is next to impossible to play a rogue fairly without upsetting everyone else(Personal Experience), well the Game doesn't have the mechanics to support such actions just yet to do that. But can't blame them for trying. And yeah it would be god modding if a player tried that without having some rules set and the other party agreeing to it.
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I was asked before the event started if I wanted to participate. I'm sure all players were. There was a preset agreement, not just them freezing anyone they choose. And there may be better opportunities in the future, just give it some time.
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As Illysia has mentioned it, we have contacted the players before freezing and teleporting them. I can't say for sure if we did for every player.
The event is a long term event, you might have noticed since when and for how long the guards are around and yesterday it was quite some time. You will have to see the event continue to understand how the rogue is able to do these things.
-the game is in development and the current features don't allow players to do such actions yet. But it is planned to give both sides, goodies and baddies chances to RP their chars proberly. There is already the skill "hide in shadows" (not yet working), there is also a dark way spell "shadow", these things could be used in RP's already. There also are thievery skills (also not working atm) which could be used RP wise. But remember, the other party could still think that you godmod, for OOC clarifications and to find possible agreements you could always use /tell and /group.
Who knows what the feature brings? Perhaps it brings approved guilds (see forum poll) or player government (another forum poll) or even player guards (see irc discussion with PS_Surveybot). And perhaps it even brings more useful spells for baddies or even enchanted items with some magical power (Not official, just a thought from me). Lets see what will come and in the meantime lets RP with what we already have :)
Vonor
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Godmoding, people, god+mode+ing.
And there is a reason for it in this case. For one thing, let's say we take your typical rogue, and toss it into a group of your typical players. Five minutes of drama, players /tell all their buddies and guilds, tons of people show up to the -exact- spot the rogue is (even when it is out in the middle of nowhere in a -secret- rogue camp, tisk), and the 'event' is over before it starts with goodie characters monkey-piling the bad guy.
We have to give the event rogues/baddies some 'edge' typical characters do not have, or the events would be short-lived and silly. One well-leveled character can easily walk through the game and take out every single rogue there is without a sweat. We also put a fatal flaw in them which makes them vulnerable (something some players do -not- do). For those of you who have been following the event, you already have the answer, even if you do not know it.
Don't worry, there will be 'rogue' things and features in the future, but don't you think we should have a bug-free combat system to build on first? Exploits+rogue features = bad news.
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Indeed. There are many things we can't do given the lack of mechanics. However, Settings and GM team are doing their best so the notion that there is a government, that there are laws and that there are criminals exist. For this, we have to make do and use the maps, commands, items and whatever we have. This means the players have to meet us half way, as it is required in every RP.
The result may not be perfect and things get tweaked as we find flaws or better ways to do things, but all in all, it's become very educational for us. We're learning first hand what kind of mechs we could use in the future for this kind of RP as well as developing game content around it, and that's a good thing. Keep your suggestions coming but keep in mind that this is sort of an "experimental treatment" and participants are our patient test group. It's like we're facing a big medical PS problem (player can't RP rogues or the presence of the law and government) and existing treatments (i.e. mechanics) aren't good enough. Then we have this idea and we decide to test it (i.e. Octarchal Crackdown, the Night Thief, The Hand of Law, etc.), but we have to use the resources we have. Along the way, we detect what works best and what kind of tools we need for better results, which means mistakes are inevitable, but if we didn't even try, we may never find a way to make rogue RPs and IC law enforcement possible. BTW, Like all experimental treatments, we only involve those who are willing to participate.
So what would you rather have: nobody doing anything to fast forward this kind of content and, thus, not being slapped on the face by anyone with the things you can't do (given that nobody will ever be able to do them); or have us experiment with mechanics, plots, and players so that this, rather important, aspect of the game can be developed?
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Godmoding, people, god+mode+ing.
Thanks for the correction. :)
We have to give the event rogues/baddies some 'edge' typical characters do not have, or the events would be short-lived and silly.
Why? If you play your rogue properly like every player has to do at the moment, he will live as long (or not).
One well-leveled character can easily walk through the game and take out every single rogue there is without a sweat.
And what do you think a player rogue faces?
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It appears that your best solution, Kaityra is to try to join the GM team.
Personally I am a little miffed that the victims have been preselected, unless of course it means that our rogue wanders around looking for a likely target and then /tells them before proceeding. I spent a whole night (almost) wandering around with my torch and sword and saw nothing. It appears that I would have been better off standing around doing nothing. Oh well my idea would have likely enraged the dude anyway.
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We have to give the event rogues/baddies some 'edge' typical characters do not have, or the events would be short-lived and silly.
Why? If you play your rogue properly like every player has to do at the moment, he will live as long (or not).
One well-leveled character can easily walk through the game and take out every single rogue there is without a sweat.
And what do you think a player rogue faces?
The problem is that GMs get criticized way harsher than a player rogue would. Partially because they have GM powers and should be able "to do better" than a player.
Personally I am a little miffed that the victims have been preselected, unless of course it means that our rogue wanders around looking for a likely target and then /tells them before proceeding. I spent a whole night (almost) wandering around with my torch and sword and saw nothing. It appears that I would have been better off standing around doing nothing. Oh well my idea would have likely enraged the dude anyway.
I'm pretty sure like targets are just chosen as they walk around. My character was sleeping in the tavern and out of the blue asked to participate.
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Yep. Victims are not pre-selected, just screened for their willingness to participate. Remember, you can't call anything that is settings approved, which all GM/Dev events are, Godmodding or Godmoding. That would be like accusing a D&D DM of godmoding for making an NPC attack you with powers that you don't have.
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That is as I really expected. Wandering around with a torch and a sword in my hand likely would not make me appear to be a good target even if the dude was looking. It is entirely possible I was on at the wrong time anyway.
As for godmoding or whatever I have had a DnD GM drop 16 tons on my head that he invented just that moment and other less blatant things so nothing is impossible. The god modification occurs when the new powers are not predefined and just added at the spur of the moment.
I would suggest that if you are giving your creations powers that will never be available to players then it is godmoding. If they may possibly be given to players of sufficient rank, unless it turns out to be too unbalancing, that is a different story. As well, if you are creating a new God to which status a character can never aspire that is also different. And lastly if the power is not going to be available to players then there must be some kind of counter to it that will become available.
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The details of the story will emerge and it will make more sense.
Cry to your mom I ain't interested. [Seriously I am sick of people coming from outside something that has takes a large group of volunteers a long time to put together and is very well thought out with some jaded sneer of a complaint and despoiling all the hard work that was put into the event. This kind of crap is what makes people quit the project. Instead whining about the state of the game or the nature of an event why not get involved. If you were to ask around among the unlawful types you would find that the event does in fact accommodate evil or lawless players also.]
For prolix the victims are just chosen for their isolation relative to others and remember the "Night Rogue" [Vileneck Ord] must be logged on the server to pick you.
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Not all characters are just mercilessly killed... Mine got away by cutting a deal. Try other tactics than killing, sometimes the result is hilarious. ;) Have fun with the event. I did and I usually hate robbing RPs. :)
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I have to say, first of all, that I think this event has been generally awesome. I honestly wander around at night with a torch, half-scared that the rogue will appear. ;D But what I wonder is, how can low-leveled characters get involved in events like this? Seriously, it seems like you have to have all stats maxed out and skills super high to be effectively considered useful on the game right now. I'm basing this on what others have told me, so I very sincerely would like advice on how to handle that problem. I've got no issue with working my way up from lower to higher levels, but if everything is aimed at the uber-players, what about the newbies? Are we just outta luck, or have I been misinformed? I really hope it's the latter.
Either way, love the game and love the event. I love feeling like the world is alive and has something to really be interested in! \\o//
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There also are thievery skills (also not working atm) which could be used RP wise.
Random thought here... but since there are a bunch of skills that should be working but don't, maybe you developer people should put up a page about skills that exist but don't work. So then people can use them in RP even though they're not ready yet mechanical-wise. It would only be fair. Most of the players don't have a clue what they're capable of doing. They only use what mechanics allows them.
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Dreamcrafter, you do not have to ever be high level to be in a GM event. Put in an effort to roleplay, and you will find an open spot.
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My only complaint about this event (which is great so far btw) is that every time the rogue shows up everyone /tells all their friends OOCly where the rogue is, so wherever he goes he's confronted by a mob of 40 do-gooders that should have no IC knowledge of the rogue's whereabouts.
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Raa it has been suggested and maybe we will do that now. My apologies to whomever I said no to before.
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There also are thievery skills (also not working atm) which could be used RP wise.
Random thought here... but since there are a bunch of skills that should be working but don't, maybe you developer people should put up a page about skills that exist but don't work. So then people can use them in RP even though they're not ready yet mechanical-wise. It would only be fair. Most of the players don't have a clue what they're capable of doing. They only use what mechanics allows them.
There you go: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32745.0
The devs are working on improving the game and also have a ToDo list ordered by priority. I guess at the top of the list for now is to get the game more stable and decreasing the bugs before adding new stuff.
@Dreamcrafter, As underthemoon said, you could RP your way in, in fact that is even what we expect people to do.
This event is open for everyone, no matter how strong or weak your char is. Have fun :)
Vonor
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There also are thievery skills (also not working atm) which could be used RP wise.
Random thought here... but since there are a bunch of skills that should be working but don't, maybe you developer people should put up a page about skills that exist but don't work. So then people can use them in RP even though they're not ready yet mechanical-wise. It would only be fair. Most of the players don't have a clue what they're capable of doing. They only use what mechanics allows them.
There you go: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32745.0
The devs are working on improving the game and also have a ToDo list ordered by priority. I guess at the top of the list for now is to get the game more stable and decreasing the bugs before adding new stuff.
I meant, like, a description of the skills. What they do. How they work. An in-depth explanation.
Thanks, Xillix.
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Cry to your mom I ain't interested.
That's a very mature answer, I guess. But well, if you don't mind what the players think...
[Seriously I am sick of people coming from outside something that has takes a large group of volunteers a long time to put together and is very well thought out with some jaded sneer of a complaint and despoiling all the hard work that was put into the event. This kind of crap is what makes people quit the project. Instead whining about the state of the game or the nature of an event why not get involved. If you were to ask around among the unlawful types you would find that the event does in fact accommodate evil or lawless players also.]
Xillix, did you even try to see my point point of view? I don't think so. But well, I should have known the outcome of this thread.
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Xillix is right, though. Y'all are a bunch of crybabies. :P
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My only argument against "you can RP your way in" is how hard it is to -do- that. For one, it's all combat.. What are we supposed to do when, even drawing near the Rogue and such, we're shouted at to get away? It's all very puzzling. Note please that this isn't a complaint against the GMs, simply a point of confusion on my part. I think the issue is mostly me figuring out the way things work around these parts. ;)
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I really do not envy the Devs/GMs... no matter what they try to do to please the players... someone gets offended and roasts them over an open flame on the forums... keep up the good work...
For the record... someone saw the rogue last night, and (to the best of my knowledge) nobody /tell'ed anyone... but they /shout'ed and drew everyone in the plaza like moths to a flame. Nice way to scare him off.
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My only argument against "you can RP your way in" is how hard it is to -do- that. For one, it's all combat.. What are we supposed to do when, even drawing near the Rogue and such, we're shouted at to get away? It's all very puzzling. Note please that this isn't a complaint against the GMs, simply a point of confusion on my part. I think the issue is mostly me figuring out the way things work around these parts. ;)
Approach the guards and ask how you can help. :detective:
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My only argument against "you can RP your way in" is how hard it is to -do- that. For one, it's all combat.. What are we supposed to do when, even drawing near the Rogue and such, we're shouted at to get away? It's all very puzzling. Note please that this isn't a complaint against the GMs, simply a point of confusion on my part. I think the issue is mostly me figuring out the way things work around these parts. ;)
I understand your concerns. But there are quite some chances to RP your way in. Of course when the rogue is at the plaza and the guards are nearby it is hard to RP your way in, but you could try anyways and there's always some RP after that and the guards are patroling very frequently these days.
You could have a look at the event thread for the night rogue to see some examples of how people rp'ed with the rogue, even. It's not all combat :)
Btw, welcome to PlaneShift, hope to see you in some events. we try to give everyone a chance to participate in them :)
Vonor
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Actually, this event is specifically aimed at showing players that not all situations can be solved quickly, or with combat. They are -finally- catching on that this is something that can not be solved by brute force, and needs cooperation and planning with the guards, who -do- have a plan.
When a GM/guard tells you "Don't fight him!" and "Stand back!" or "He is still to powerful!", then you should assume bad things will happen if you do not listen, and it is not a combat event.
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For me there's no problem.
There are 2 possible things, I think:
-try to fight, then you'll die.
-give him the moneys, if you have them. If not I don't know what will happen. I'll try. Right now I'm walking around without moneys.
Anyways is an event. An event is an event, for make people have fun. If you don't have fun play with another game till the Night Rogue is free.
Or change city. The Night Rogue is only in Hydlaa (true?).
And anyways if you'll die you'll born again and if you'll loose your moneys you'll gain them again fighting, selling weapons, armors and other or doing quests.
It's a GAME, so have FUN :)
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Kaitrya accusing me of not listening to the players is about the silliest thing one could do.
This event and the octarchal crackdown are direct responses to specific long shouted player complaints.
Hello!
I really appreciate the effort that a GM puts into making any event but I personally think that this event is a slap in the face of anyone trying to play a rogue in this game. Sorry, but I think it is quite easy for a GM to give uber powers, e.g. appearing out of nowhere and disappear again at will or being able to freeze people, to any character he/she "plays". And now let's have a look at the abilities a player rogue has...nothing. But hey...I can just walk up to a character and state that I just appeared out of nowhere but I guess this would be called godmodding then, right?
With kind regards
Kaityra
Listen to yourself!
"A slap in the face" ?
"A slap in the face" ?
/me slaps kaityra in the face.
That IS a slap in the face.
Everyone wants things to move faster and many devs want more features for rogue types. In the mean time we can fill in with events.
If YOU actually spent the time to get involved in the event you would come to understand how this event addresses the concerns of rogues, as well as the concerns of those who were tired of seeing frivolous combat in the plaza. This situation is specifically not godmodding and the explanation will be very apparent for why THIS rogue can do what it is that he does. GM and Settings Story tellers DO hold more sway over the story and events of hydlaa. Just like in DnD not every player gets to play Thor or Odin, that is the gm's job.
What is more, instead of decrying what players can't do you could always join the gm team or dev teams to help make events that adhere to whatever guidelines you think they should adhere to.
What is even more, one could very easily rob people through rp, every individual the rogue has robbed was done with the consent of the people robbed. Really simple: /tell x, Hello. X: hello /tell X I would like to rob you, you needn't give me actual tria you can rp it if you like. Are you interested X: yes/no.
and next thing you know you're robbing people.
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For the very first time in our history of knowing each other, I have to say I agree with Xillix.
If indeed the players have asked for this kind of event then they got it. It seems to be well thought out and those who joined in enjoyed it as I have been told.
/me looks down at Xillix. Yes I agreed with you, but need not faint because of it.
:D and here is my smile as requested.
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I honestly wander around at night with a torch, half-scared that the rogue will appear.
I share that fear and it kept me offline. Yeah, I'm that sort of person. :-/ As I wrote in another thread I don't want to get involved in events for personal reasons (nothing to do with the work of devs, settings etc.). Though after reading that (most) players are asked if they want to get involved in this one I might reconsider logging on while the event is still on.
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*Gaian mumbles
Yes, I agree with Xillix, as Mathy.
Ah, and...
I honestly wander around at night with a torch, half-scared that the rogue will appear.
I share that fear and it kept me offline. Yeah, I'm that sort of person. :-/ As I wrote in another thread I don't want to get involved in events for personal reasons (nothing to do with the work of devs, settings etc.). Though after reading that (most) players are asked if they want to get involved in this one I might reconsider logging on while the event is still on.
Don't worry, you just have to stay in places full of players, Hanrquist's is enough safe. The Rogue isn't that idiot ;)
Plus message:
For the genies that yesterday shouted all around where is the Night Rogue...
He isn't that idiot, I repeat. If you want people coming and fight/talk/deal and other with him... you'll fail. Why?
'Cause he'll escape if he perfectly knows that there's a bunch of people coming! >:(
And, again, you leave the pleasure to meet him in the "peace and silence of the darkness" ;)
(well, I'll be more pleased to meet him alone than barely see him between all the people... :D )
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I understand Kaityra's complaint but I can't say I share 100% her opinion..
On one side, maybe the attacker could have set itself to the same stance as any GM does when givin' a speech, for example. Just simply non-attackable or what ever name the thingy has..
On another perspective, I agree totally with the godmoding for cases like this one, on which the GM's intention is to perform it's duty based on a storyline which takes more than a couple of seconds to achieve. Hadn't it been godmoded, the storyline would be different and the char is suposed to die quickly.
But this thread revealed some interesting hints about the future and that's another thing I want to take advantage of to spray some graphos on this wall..
If I'm not mistaken, characters (the ones handled by players) will be able to engage in quite interesting actions against other characters, objects, elements and alike.. Call them skills if you want.. I prefer: 'actions'.
Being this the case, then this promised future lights up a very interesting path.. one in which chars will finally face their reality: there is something wild about it all..
One wonders why these things have not being allocated. Some drop accusations, others become devil advocates, etc.. I just say.. I don't know and I don't want to. If you cannot pick a lock or physically rob something, dissappear, climb on statues, etc.. there must be a reason greater than will for it. Fact is: At this moment, player's chars can't do.
But.. There is a developing environment in which all these possibilities are on hold and as characters, they have become attached with those rules. Odd thing is, I find that the orientation is actually opposing to the possible existence of such actions. Such change in rules will also bring debate and perhaps fiercer than slaps on faces.
Because it will be a much different set of rules.. too far from what we see now, Guilds are crossing a mudflood at present IMO because the actual rules don't pose a challenge for chars. One can come and go as will.. unprotected, alone.. uncautious. But... remember the things out there?.. do you actually think about them?.. Who do you think you are to qualify a rogue's capabilities? or an Ulbernaut's? What about a Guard's? How deadly are your weapons? How are your enemies'? well, there will be a time in which being alone would be suicidal and then by facing the wild, chars will unite and guilds will pass the mud. ( I like to call that time 'The Rebirth Of The Guilds').
I've learned not to point fingers in here and post reflections instead of biased comments. I just wanted to remind us that this world is not to remain the way we see it now.. Still, I'm worried about how much of surprise it will be for many when all these actions become active, because somehow I suspect many settings and changes we've seen recently could be misunderstood and we're living in oblivion.
I hope those actions get active soon.. and BTW, my char is getting ready for it!. I want to see chars exposed to dangers, death, etc.. I want to see our characters united in groups to survive, to fight the wild, to be aware of the nature of everything around and finally, play roles accordingly. It is very hard right now to RP (again, IMO) simply because there's a lack of actions to backup them adequately. Mainwhile, it would be wise to check if the path is pointing the right direction and not the 'right way'.
Ciao, pescao!
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Katyira will be happy to know that if /he/she/ pays attention there are some things going to help the outlaw/rebel/rogue types. Keep your ear to the ground folks.