PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Mythryndel on September 05, 2008, 05:08:08 am
-
I have, like many others, been feeding my PS addiction on the forums since the server went down. I have tried to post constructive criticism and refrain from doing nothing but B****ing and complaining. I have also tried to be patient. Please understand that this complaint is not about some downtime or even a criticism of the game itself. My problem is simply with the way people communicate in this community. Follow along with me if you will...
- Server goes down for any number of reasons.
- People start posting on the forums about the server being down.
- (only recently) someone associated with PS (usually Xordan) will post something vague about the server.
[EDIT: PLEASE note that vague only implies that not much is known, not that anyone is trying to hide details]
- Server continues to be down.
- People don't hear anything more about what is going on.
- People start posting hypothetical solutions to the unknown problem.
- Mods and the like start getting irritated that people won't stop posting or caring that the server is down.
- Community members start getting irritated that they haven't heard anything and that their advice is getting discarded out-of-hand.
- Mods start getting frustrated at getting bashed and start locking threads.
- Community members start rallying into two camps... One defending the game and telling people to piss off... and another telling everyone the game is crap and that they are leaving.
I personally am very appreciative of the efforts of the dev team (and all the other "teams" that make up PS)... but i gotta say... the communication with the Community sucks.
Do you "owe" us anything? no.
Do you "have" to tell us anything? no.
Do you ask something from us? yes. If we don't like it, help change it is a frequent retort on these forums. If you can't get involved, at least file meaningful bug reports.
I for one, file bug reports as often as I find new ones. I also have offered to help in the capacities I am allowed by my current employer (no coding... sorry). Only problem is, during this server outage, people were trying to help by posting possible resolutions. These remedies ranged from getting donations to changing servers/hosting companies. Without more details about the exact nature of the problem, people couldn't be more specific with their advice. Instead of being seen as trying to offer their expertise, they got told how ungrateful they were being.
Now... here is my whole point....
Do you, meaning PS officials, really care about the community? Not just in making the game, not just in mechanics and such... but really value the community? If you do, then you should show it by treating us like part of the community. Keep us in the loop when major things happen. Don't tell someone who is genuinely trying to offer constructive advice/$$/alternatives a reply that either implies or outright states that they are being ungrateful. If you don't want wild speculation going on about what the problem might be, tell us what you know. Why is it that nobody can take a few seconds to post something official? If you don't know anything, post as much on a daily basis. Laanx forbid, use the "news box".
All we want is for things to better and get back to playing. If you notice the thread Xordan started, everyone started out nice, civil, appreciative. Then everyone started asking for an update. Why is it that someone obviously not connected to PS was relaying info from someone officially connected to PS? Instead of simply saying, server still down, nothing we can do at the moment... we get mixed messages when someone does finally respond, and tempers start flaring on both sides because everyone is frustrated.
I will not claim that some of the community members didn't long-jump over the line of good taste in some of their responses. However, they were/are not the majority of people posting about the outage.
*** on a side note to the community (not going to name names) but GIVE IT A REST with berating people that get frustrated with the lack of communication. Just because someone would like to know what is going on doesn't mean they are just being an @$$, requiring you to come to the devs defense. ***
-
Okay, from now on we can send mass emails to all members every 10 minutes containing
"No more news."
Because that's exactly the news we have to report. Would that be often enough for you?
Or you can pay for my plane tickets and accommodation so I can sort things out myself. $10k should do it.
If we don't have any news worth telling then we won't post. When we do then we will. Most of us are in the dark as much as the players.
It's rather insulting that people suggest that we just don't care.
-
I'm sorry that you are the one to respond to this first, because I have been very grateful for your posts. I am not implying that there is anything that can be done, that isn't being done. I am simply saying that we want to know what is going on. Daily, once every 24 hours, is a good interval when things are down this long.
-
For several days in the last week there has been nothing going on though. I've heard 3 or so bits of news myself, spread out over the week.
Two of them were very vague. Everything we know so far as been posted.
-
I am going to make an assumption, that you, Xordan, are not the one on the phone/keyboard communicating directly with fragnetics. I will make another assumption, that the person who is in direct communication knows more than "it is down". If you are the "face" of the PS team when things go down, then they should keep you in the loop better too.
-
Actually I've been doing most of the contact with fragnetics. We only found out in the last day or two that the problem is probably overheating. They haven't been terribly quick in sorting it out unfortunately - it caught them at a bad time (in the middle of a datacentre move, and two of the main guys are really busy with weddings and other RL stuff). So until yesterday or so, all we knew was "it is down".
-
That info would have put an end to a LOT of speculation going on in the other threads.
I was dealing with a similar situation recently... the IT person taking care of my server at the corporate office... didn't notice that the server room was getting a bit toasty... and all I had were logs showing that the system came back up all by itself... very annoying... but I digress...
-
You mean the info that we had no info until yesterday, and it is only 'probably' info? Perhaps you missed it the first time in the posts of Devs saying "We will tell you when we know something." ;)
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33501.msg385619#msg385619
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33501.msg385732#msg385732
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33501.msg385819#msg385819
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33501.msg386326#msg386326
-
Well it's not like I'm about to say anything that hasn't been said before, but as a new member I feel a strange need to say it.
So to the developers (especially xorden.).... Thanks.
I've spent a while cruising the so called "free mmorpg's" out there, and every single one of them was a huge disapointment after figuring out how their Premium account system worked.
So long story short, PlaneShift is a breath of fresh spring clean air after nearly drowning in clogged sewer pipe. In short it is worth the wait. :thumbup:
(god I hope I don't sound like a total newb right now :sweatdrop: )
-
(god I hope I don't sound like a total newb right now :sweatdrop: )
Oh Talad Almighty how I detest that word newb, noob, n00b, or any derivation thereof. It's a grotesque bastardization of what once meant someone who was inexperienced. Now it means someone who is totally without brains.
You are NOT a "Newb". You are inexperienced. And no you didn't sound like one!
You'll do fine here Pang Tong. Don't forget to ask questions and let people help out.
Read the forums, and most important, have fun!
-
So long story short, PlaneShift is a breath of fresh spring clean air after nearly drowning in clogged sewer pipe. In short it is worth the wait. :thumbup:
Welcome, Pang Tong. Over here we have the Plaza. Over there is the Tavern. Oh, and you will not want to miss the sewers... they will make you feel right at home. ;D
-
thanks for the vote of confidense Edig. O--)
First post on a new forum has always been a bit unnerving for me. :sweatdrop:
-
So long story short, PlaneShift is a breath of fresh spring clean air after nearly drowning in clogged sewer pipe. In short it is worth the wait. :thumbup:
Welcome, Pang Tong. Over here we have the Plaza. Over there is the Tavern. Oh, and you will not want to miss the sewers... they will make you feel right at home. ;D
well if a quest demands it then I'll just have to go grab my scuba gear. :woot:
-
UTM... even by the links you posted... 4 days went by without an update. That is when people started getting frustrated. Then a post was made that the server was up and the thread is locked. Well, as we all know now, the server wasn't "up" at that time or stable. But the thread remained locked, and the mods seemed to get frustrated that people were still wanting to know what happened... and just kept locking all threads where anybody asked what was going on...
This isn't the first time this has happened, and I am sure it won't be the last that there is an outage of some sort. I have noticed that there is more communication than when I got here early this year, but it is still frustratingly sparse sometimes.
-
Lolitra scowels "Don't you hate the sort of passenger in a car that is constantly saying 'are we there yet?'"
-
The way I read it was the threads were locked when people started getting abusive to the devs and/or mods. I think that that is fair enough.
I almost felt ashamed of the community at some points, there is no need to talk like that to anyone, especially people that make your fun time fun by producing PS for us.
-
/me grins at Lolitra's comment
I can sort of understand why patience is considered a "virtue" now. Must be a rare one :P
-
I can see both sides of this issue. My thoughts are nothing ever gets done in anger or with cutting words. I have learned this lesson the hard way. I ask that everyone here think of this: we are on the same team. We need to work together. If there is tension among the ranks the whole thing will fall apart. Let us all speak kindly to each other and have some patience.
Once I took my PC to a tech to get fixed because it would not work. I called him everyday and all he could do was tell me that he was trying to find out what was wrong. In the end I got my computer back good as new though it took two weeks for him to fix the problem. I am sure that all that needs to be done is being done. The last thing we need to hear is that the server cannot be fixed and we have to wait for a new one. I say let them do their work. We can only hope that all will be well when the time comes. (BTW, I also think it is better they fix all the problems, rather then the server being unstable.) So as I said before Chill!! This time I ask that everyone be polite also.
-
Then a post was made that the server was up and the thread is locked. Well, as we all know now, the server wasn't "up" at that time or stable. But the thread remained locked, and the mods seemed to get frustrated that people were still wanting to know what happened...
I am getting a little frustrated too, with the continual misinformation being spread, the server was up and had been stable for at least 15-20 minutes when I posted that it was up, ask any of the dozen or so who logged in, as soon as I realised it wasnt stable I also posted that information.
As for the 4 days without an update, they were given when info was available, I really dont see the point of an hourly report saying there's nothing to report.
The thread was locked because it had got to 11 pages of similar posts and suggestions all of which have been mentioned before numerous times both in that thread and others.
-
I don't think the problem is lack of information, its just not visible enough. Its there, just buried under a pile of uninformative posts. People in flame mode wont go looking trough the forums for some info they don't really care about. Crash and burn until the server is up again(bad music reference intended).
And the guys from Fragnetics are great. Permanently moving the server just because of this issue would be stupid.
-
Then a post was made that the server was up and the thread is locked. Well, as we all know now, the server wasn't "up" at that time or stable. But the thread remained locked, and the mods seemed to get frustrated that people were still wanting to know what happened...
As for the 4 days without an update, they were given when info was available, I really dont see the point of an hourly report saying there's nothing to report.
The thread was locked because it had got to 11 pages of similar posts and suggestions all of which have been mentioned before numerous times both in that thread and others.
Mordraugion has a good point, And yet the same thing is happening here. This is just the same thread with a different name and same attitude.
The thing is, there are other "free" games. Sure they aren't like PS, but they are free none the less. This kind of thread isn't even tolerated on the forums for those other games.
The person making such posts are often banned both in the forums and in the games. BANNED.
To date the Mods and everyone else have been quite patient with the naysayers. I believe that's something worth thinking about when you make your posts bashing them. And you are bashing them. Kicking someone when they are down with unrealistic expectations is bashing someone.
Perhaps Mathy's analogy of the computer at the fix it place is the best... There are often days that can go by with no information about a given situation. To expect someone to give information when none exists is... ludicrous.... and to suggest they know more than they are saying is at best slanderous. Do you have proof they know more? If not then BACK OFF. If you do, then how about confronting them personally so the rest of us don't have to deal with the anger and crud that goes along with these types of posts.
This is all part of that I want it now because I am owed something by everyone in the world mentality. No you are not!
There's a wonderful quote I heard many many (many) years ago.... "Get the hell off the cross, we need the wood." If you are done playing the martyr, I think everyone here would appreciate having the wood back to build a better what-ever.
-
I am getting a little frustrated too, with the continual misinformation being spread, the server was up and had been stable for at least 15-20 minutes when I posted that it was up, ask any of the dozen or so who logged in, as soon as I realised it wasnt stable I also posted that information.
As for the 4 days without an update, they were given when info was available, I really dont see the point of an hourly report saying there's nothing to report.
I confirm this as i got on PS for 20 minutes and am glad to say that everything was exactly how i left the game when the server went off so people should stop worrying/speculating that anything is lost or whatever.
Im grateful to Xordan (i think it was) too who explained whats happened. Every hour that passes is one less till we get the game back right so lets be patient ;)
-
I've already stated back when the problems started that -worst case- very little is lost. Now it's almost certain that nothing is lost.
-
Hmm, the situation reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raNM0UvR_Bo
-
Perhaps we as a community should consider this a learning experience. I believe it's possible to improve things greatly with a very simple change, just making the current status more prominent. Here's what I suggest:
Make the first (sticky) thread in the Server Status forum the authoritative one. Lock it so that it doesn't fill up with pages of commentary, and update as often as something is known. Move the Server Status forum up into the Announcements section of the forums. When things are running normally, change the post to say that this is where the latest info will be posted in the event of extended outages.
-
[...]
To expect someone to give information when none exists is... ludicrous....
[...]
*sadly necessary disclaimer* This is a completely unemotional post that is not against anyone
Please just note that informing also when there are no news is not ludicrous but - as I stated in the other post (yes, Im just repeating) - good and professional behaviour.
Not each 10 minutes and not every hour (maybe not even once a day as wished though this would certainly be a very good thing).
You can decide that you don't do that (and actually I read that of other posts) but there is a reason why also informing when there are no news has been learnt to be a good thing: It prevents people from getting nervous, angry and ugly.
If the server stays down for weeks it is fine for me. If I know that no one will give information when there is no news I can accept it - Im just trying to state a few facts that I hope will help (as the original poster Im sure). This is no critique.
Sen
-
[...]
To expect someone to give information when none exists is... ludicrous....
[...]
*sadly necessary disclaimer* This is a completely unemotional post that is not against anyone
Please just note that informing also when there are no news is not ludicrous but - as I stated in the other post (yes, Im just repeating) - good and professional behaviour.
Agreed, but it was done, so I'm really getting confused here... Where is the problem? Is it that people can't be bothered to use the search function or is it that people chose not to read and post anyway?
There must be self responsibility on both sides, not just one.
With that said, I'm off to surgery and won't be back. I'll think twice before poking my head into the forums after I'm sure I'm not doped up on anesthesia...
-
Of the comments posted... I think that there were two suggestions I feel are worth repeating and suggesting:
1. Make the status more visible. I would prefer the, currently unused, "News Box", but visibility is key here.
2. Make the "sticky" thread locked so that only PS officials can post. This keeps things uncluttered and official announcements easier to see.
Also, as much as you are tired of hearing from me and others, NO ONE IS ASKING FOR UPDATES EVERY 10 MINUTES. Yes, I am getting tired of being told I am asking for something unreasonable. Daily updates of some kind is nothing short of reasonable and professional.
Before you start slamming me about how much time it takes and whatever... I am a IT professional who deals with servers and users on a daily basis. I know what you are dealing with here. Those on the PS team that doubt my credentials, PM me for a copy of my resume (and yes, you can verify it if you like).
And since so many people are missing the point here, let me restate it... I DO NOT think that ANYONE on the PS team is slacking off and not trying to fix things as quickly and thoroughly as possible. I DO feel that the community should be kept better informed of the status of things.
-
remember very few devs considering the total size of the dev team have power over this forum or anything that goes on here. most devs can not admin this forum to do the requested items. also most devs are not forum moderators so they can post to locked threads.
-
remember very few devs considering the total size of the dev team have power over this forum or anything that goes on here. most devs can not admin this forum to do the requested items. also most devs are not forum moderators so they can post to locked threads.
but they do all have the ability to nudge someone like myself who does.
-
I propose to create a bot who posts this message on forums every hour: "Sorry, guys. There is no news about the server yet."
Seriously: I, myself, check the thread about the server status daily, and I have to skip dozens of posts about hypothesis why the server might be down. I think the confusion and is caused by all the ideas/hypothesis/gossip about the reasons for downtime. A thread where only someone responsible could post would be better. So people could check this thread to see if there is any news.
-
Im usually more often on the forum and could mostly keep up with the posts, but this idea (along with similar ones) sounds helpful
Also, thanks to Rizin for the updates! :sorcerer:
/me starts a discussion thread about what Fragnetics should do better
Just kidding - I hope no one will do that ;D
Sen
-
Many thanks to Xordan and other members of the dev team that are working with Fragnetics.
Updates are being posted here: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33501.150 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33501.150)
-
I propose to create a bot who posts this message on forums every hour:
Better still make it an opt-in mailbot so only those obsessive few need be bothered with it.
-
In all seriousness, I have a script that can A. ping, and B. attempt to connect to a given port to determine if a service is available and send e-mail notifications when it goes down, every <insert time interval here>, and again when it comes back up... In case anyone truly does want something like this...
[EDIT] Before people start thinking i am obsessed with PS... well... anyways... I have that script for my JOB... to monitor the servers I am responsible for maintaining.
-
heh, can you just call me when it comes back up? I don't need to know it is still down, just when back up.. he he heh
-
Make the first (sticky) thread in the Server Status forum the authoritative one. Lock it so that it doesn't fill up with pages of commentary, and update as often as something is known. Move the Server Status forum up into the Announcements section of the forums. When things are running normally, change the post to say that this is where the latest info will be posted in the event of extended outages.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES! ;) I think the updates we got were frequent enough. There was enough information. What I wish, though, was that we could have an 'official' thread with ONLY useful information from the devs/team/etc, plus another thread for random ruminations/conversation from the playerbase. What we were told, I believe, was really fine. I just think it got a bit hard to sort out, and if there was an official thread vs. an unofficial one, it would have been easier to sort out rumor from fact.
Otherwise, though, here are my two trias.
I do think, though, that Mythryndel has a point. The communication on this subject did get a bit combative. The players got a bit antsy, and some WERE downright rude. Some deserved to be told to stop acting like children, etc. Some, though, were just understandably trying to be helpful. They may not have, in the end, BEEN helpful, but their intentions were right. It did feel at times as though the devs/mods were a bit snippy over the (often misguided) good intentions of the players.
This is entirely understandable. Being asked, as Loltira put it, "are we there yet?" over and over IS irritating. I know this from my own experiences as a MUX admin. However, it's important for staff members to keep their irritation in check whenever possible. Now, I don't believe for a moment that anything the mods or devs have said or done during this "crisis" has been anything terribly out of line. I just think that tempers seemed to run a little hot on both sides, and BOTH sides (especially the players) should really have been more willing to sit back, relax, and just wait this out.
The only difference is that the devs/mods are in a perceived position of power and authority. Thus, the players are looking to them (however haphazardly) to take a leadership role in sorting all this out. Even if there's no official "answer" or "solution" to the problem, this sort of thing is a great time for community leadership. In the future, perhaps there might be some options as to how that might be handled.
In the end, there's no one "answer" to how to make good communication, just a lot of theories. I think that, even outside of "crisis moments" like this, the community here could work on being better communicators, coming off as less harsh and judgmental, etc. There are a hundred ways to do it, and I think we can all figure out most of them on our own. Never posting in irritation or anger is one very good idea.
Also, people (not just devs/mods) coming up with little solutions or ideas to get people's minds off the trouble could help. Heck, maybe we could even arrange to meet on a MU* somewhere and /me at each other until our fingers fall off. ;) The main thing, though, is just to try to be a community--not just a forum full of people shouting at each other.
-
Guess what I did tonight and last night and the night before that. I spent extra time with my girlfriend and wasn't in a rush at the end of the night to get home to ps. Take a series of unfortunate events or in this case a single event (server being down) and really helped improve my relationship even more with her.
At the end of the night I come home and check the server, still down....more time with her tomorrow night. I might even hang up some clothes for a change instead of neglecting that choir to play ps. I encourage everyone to take this time to take care of things that need to be done instead of constantly monitoring the server. That way when it does come back up you want have to put off things because they will already be done. :thumbup:
It will be up soon enough and I look very forward to when it is, but until then...rl
-
See, not sitting around and waiting for PS to come back gets you some :P
Scuzzle, you are an example to us all!