PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: dragnoor on September 05, 2008, 08:50:33 pm
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Roleplaying wikipedia definition:
"A role-playing game (RPG; often roleplaying game) is a game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games."
Try explaining that to a new player?
The fact is as we all know things in PS have moved on. Yes of course there is still RP. Always will be. But trying to get a noob to RP is extremely difficult. Most noobs are young & impetuous. They cannot see past levelling up. Of course once your maxed then what?
What does a player do? They turn to RP. As its future is determined by imagination, not numbers.
An observation in IRC chat was that most of those who level to the max do it to kill other players. Im this kind of player. Its a shortsighted "Style", of todays gaming.
Another aspect I noticed was that through no fault of their own, kids nowadays dont read books. The basics like "Lord of the rings", & dozens of other titles are overlooked. They play on DS lites, & other hardware, & Pokemon or Sonic just dont fire the imagination like Books do. As a result our kids lack the social skills & bedrock fantasy imagination our generation take for granted.
I've mulled over this problem... There is no easy answer or im sure it would be implemented.
So this is the role of this thread: Suggestions as to HOW we can get the kids/noobs involved ?
I'll suggest a mandatory background of 2 sides in perpetual war. Real war not just story war. This background would allow noobs to fall into character right from the start. And then STAY IC almost ALL the time. Each side fighting for power over key points in PS like the platinum mine. I know this is a massive almost impossible idea. But the basis is for ALL players to interact. Realtime RP to coin a phrase.
My thanks goto those who talked about this on IRC. You know who you are. Hehe.
Dragnoor
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Honestly? I think the best way is to just let them play the game. You're right. I'm a kid these days, and it's been years since I've actually read a novel. I stay on my computer all day and night. And that is all.
But for those that have seen me in game, I RP. A lot. And yes, I do play my DS lite (though only with friends), and yes, when I originally came to this game it was to "pwn some monsters! lol!". The thing that changed me was those gently RPing around me. No one said "Get lost powerleveller!" or "You don't know the difference between IC and OOC so I'm going to /ignore you!" (Both of which I have seen ingame), no. They just RP'd correctly, and when I used 'lawl' they politely /told me "Please try to refrain from acronyms like 'lol' and 'lawl' on main. Try /me laughs instead :)"
And I did. And then I started experimenting with other things you could do with /me and it was fascinating. Yes, I screwed up a lot, but having people screaming at me that I failed OOCly wouldn't have helped. Nor would people forcing me to advance faster than I was. Had someone tried that, it would've just driven me away from RP.
Bleh, I'm babbling. But my point is, just let new characters do their best and politely advise them once and a while. It may be horribly painful at times to you, but in the end it's worth it.
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But my point is, just let new characters do their best and politely advise them once and a while. It may be horribly painful at times to you, but in the end it's worth it.
Just like raising children. :)
Yes, the only way there will be a new "generation" of roleplayers is to raise them. Set an example, give helpful guidance, and discipline when it's absolutely necessary. That's what the older "generation" does.
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I remember when i started :)
I found the game (my first ever mmorpg, played a few others since though) and assumed it was like the rest, and that grind and level was the way to go. So i was probably the typical (but old ;)) noob you are thinking of. However, not all noobs are intent on spoiling the fun of others, i just kept to myself at the start until i joined my first guild. Gradually i got my head around that people actally rp'd in this game and i started experimenting, and hell, you know what? i enjoyed this rp thang.
That was probably nearly 2 years ago now, and since my original chars are pretty strong and well leveled, i feel no need to PL any more skills and i mostly rp thse days. Although i still really enjoy looting for some reason, maybe it's the thrill of finding something rare that keeps me doing it :D What i'm probably trying to say is that i enjoy the rp, but i also enjoy engaging with the mechanics as they're fun too (except mining.. not fun)
Perhaps the newer players will follow a similar path and convert and enjoy as they learn more about what makes this game special. And if they don't? well so what. So long as they're having fun and remain respectful, then let them have fun with the mechanics :)
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I think he's talking about integration rather than enforcement. Ideally, we need mechanics that are fully integrated with RP so that when you RP you are using mechanics and when you use the mechanics you are RP'ing. He's not talking about whipping newbies into shape. From my perspective, this is the best possible end goal for PS to have.
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It is easy to just run around and be restricted by game mechanics. If you RP seriously, you have to accept restrictions from settings, too. I think it is like giving away some sort of freedom if you do that. I observe this a lot: Players laughing at you if you tell them that their behaviour is against settings/rules. They say: "And what do you want to do against that?" It is difficult to explain to them the benefit of restricting yourself by accepting more rules than pure game mechanics. It might be caused by impatience or short sightedness, maybe.
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^^Regarding what he just said, I agree 100%. For an MMORPG that is created for the intention of Roleplaying, I cannot think of a better goal. I completely understand what's being said here, and I fully agree. Noobs are oblivious, unfortunately, and will refuse to roleplay if they A. Don't want to, B. Don't feel like it (kind of A), and C. Aren't experienced enough. If the players were to be given a small tutorial ingame on how to roleplay successfully, they might feel a little more confident when going into the RP world. Encouraging behavior from other players helps this as well, and you should try to integrate players nearby you in your roleplays, especially ones that just seem to be running circles because they don't know what to do. From personal experience, I know that RPing on MMO's like World of Warcraft and City of Heroes/Villains, joining or finding a solid roleplay partner / group is difficult, especially when the core mechanic seems to be leveling, questing, looting, etc.
Try and include new people, you never know if a noob will turn out to be a fantastic roleplayer.
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Not having played yet due to the server...possibly requiring rather then encouraging RP, however some games that do this wind up loosing players. In my experience, more players would prefer to just level, and go to those types of games rather then one with pure RP (which is a little sad because I can think of nothing more fun then pure RP).
Another option if the game doesn't have it.. is allow a small amount of leveling just by being ig. This seems to have the advantage of taking the "pressure" off of skilling and allowing more RP.
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Try and include new people, you never know if a noob will turn out to be a fantastic roleplayer.
I do that already, also because in these days almost every unknown player with RP experience is an alt :P
Seriously, noobs are welcome to our guild. It is a challenge and requires patience, but you are right, it is worth the effort.
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We all have our opinions as to what can be done to encourage RP. But that's not what I asked.
I'm looking for suggestions as to how to integrate the two schools of thought.
Bring them together under one game mechanical system. This must be possible?
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Yay, another n00b bashing thread about a lost time when grass was greener and people read books.
I dont see how reading LoTR gives someone imagination. Thats pure nonsense. Most fantasy books are written for enjoyment. A lot of them are very generic like the flood of Asian MMORPGs. Because people read such books, they usually RP godmodding orphans. Death to all parents!
Powerleveling and RPing can go together. Its just like people who spend countless hours in the gym or artists who draw every day. In real life these people get praised for it. Can you imagine anyone calling a musician a f-N0.0b just because he practices very often?
As long as the player stays IC and dosn't go LoLzoring around, i don't see a problem. You cant force people to enjoy the game exactly the way you want them to. Thats a very selfish thing.
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I tend to agree with you Crj. There is no possible way to FORCE everyone to RP... well... maybe if you go to a dialog tree for ALL PC to (N)PC interactions. Even then, I don't see why someone couldn't come up with something that would be stupid and offensive... maybe just spinning in circles just to annoy the RPers... (yes I have read people being ticked off because people were spinning in Kada's)...
I read something on the web the other day that really seems to fit... "It was funny how you could attach implications of possession to things that you didn't own." There are a lot of people that make statements/claims that their way of doing things should be the only way, and all others are not welcome. The problem is... regardless of their interpretation of settings or the main website... it is not theirs to make such statements/claims.
If you want to come here to PS, you are welcome (according to statements made by those that DO have the authority to make those statements). If you start becoming a nuisance, then you will likely be visited from on high by a GM. If you still don't either start acting IC (which does NOT mean sitting at Kada El's all day) or stop annoying others by your interaction with them, you might get kicked out. However, it is not the players decision, but the GMs.
[EDIT] One problem you have is the view each side has of the other... the PLers get pissy when they want to duel someone (for IC or OOC reasons) and get told to piss off. The RPers get challenged by someone who PLs and get upset that someone who has only been in game a few days/weeks can wipe the floor with them via the mechanics.
If you truly want to "merge" the two groups... you have to come up with a way of awarding experience/training/something for the people who only RP. OR you have to make the leveling/grinding a bit less painful/time consuming. If acquiring skill/stats weren't so painful, maybe more RPers would take the time to do it and RP their actual stats/skills.
For the record... I am NOT implying that ALL RPers don't have stats/skill to back up their RP. I am simply paraphrasing many arguments i have read here about people having such distaste for the leveling mechanics that they just roll up a new player and RP whatever they want, instead of making that character into what they want.
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good points. CRJ (about practice esp)
PL'ing in real life is called AMBITION. You have no idea how many times I heard that I am not really RPing because I am training my crafting... and yet, when a young person works on a skill, say like swimming 4-8 hours a day, until the day he wins multiple gold medals at the Olympics... How many people claim he is not really playing his role in life?
Then you have the social people, they like to call themselves Rp-ers. Most are great people, but I do not understand some. Some never practice then complain when they have no skills. When I was running marathons, I ran 30-40 miles a week, every week. When I was a boxer, I would train 3-4 hours a day, plus walk about 10 miles a week (every other day) pumping a 20lb weight in each hand to work my core and shoulders and arms. All so I could play my "role" in the sporting event...
No one should be forced to practice, but I disagree that you should get levels for just breathing. those who like rping to the exclusion of training get their reward, and I hope they are always welcome. but, as in real life, if you dont put in the hours, you should not expect the 6-pac abs.
I hope my analogies help explain my point.
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/me steps in.
That will be nothing what i wouldn't say before, but most of you weren't there when i did :]
Powerleveling is not the problem, the given similiarities to real life training are all correct, IMO.
The problem is how it is organized in the game. You don't kill 100 gladiators a day to get better in fighting. You don't kill 1000 tefusangs a day to make your living as a hunter. A smelter shouldn't melt and cast the same piece of metal over and over again, because that should be dang expensive and not really worth it after taking into account all factors which in fact aren't there.
It is not powerleveling. It is the game.
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I dont see how reading LoTR gives someone imagination. Thats pure nonsense. Most fantasy books are written for enjoyment. A lot of them are very generic like the flood of Asian MMORPGs. Because people read such books, they usually RP godmodding orphans. Death to all parents!
While I think much of your post had merit, this one thought is a bit disjointed and, I feel, erroneous. Reading books is a very imaginative experience. I admit, LotR isn't the most thrilling novel to read for some people. (It was written in the tradition of the epic romance, rather than the novel, and Tolkien never intended it to be a "novel" in the strictest sense of the word. Rather, he was writing his own saga like The Odyssey or similar... Suffice to say, the rhetorical intents and uses behind literary fantasy are elements that should not (and, honestly, cannot) be lightly turned aside. True, most fantasy books (like most mass market books) are written to sell, and thus use generic, pre-packaged stories with stock characters to appeal to readers who want pop-fiction rather than literary fiction. However, just because there is less literary, more mass-market fantasy out there does not preclude the validity or usefulness of fantastical works of literary fiction. Lord of the Rings is a good example of such, as are some works by fantasy masters such as Ursula K. Le Guin, etc etc. (Sorry, I'm in grad school training to be an English professor someday... I can't help myself sometimes.)
Ahem. The bottom line is, there's plenty of validity to the argument that having read a lot of inspirational fantasy is a good way to write (i.e. role-play online) interesting and engaging, even entertaining characters. No, not all interesting characters are orphans. Broken families may be interesting right now because of the increasing numbers of people in many parts of society in the world (though I confess I speak from an American perspective) who are from broken families themselves, often with absent parents or simply alienation from their familial structure. But I digress. The point is, reading and creative engagement go a long way to enriching the experience of role-play, far more than mere grinding ever will. Not that leveling doesn't have a place in RP--I believe that it does--but that it cannot be the defining element without losing something of the essence of what makes an interesting story, compelling characters.
Literature isn't just books, though I love them dearly. Many films, songs, graphic novels, television shows, and yes, even video games can contribute to the literary landscape of fantasy. The LotR films are one example, but so are the works of Hayao Miyazaki, Neil Gaiman, Akira Kurosawa, Shakespeare, or even Baz Luhrmann. Watch Labyrinth, The Dark Crystal, Legend, whatever tickles your fancy, and try to figure out what makes it interesting. What makes those characters not generic and dull? Use it. Learn from it. Get crazy and creative with it. Try one of those "random story starter" websites and write a background for your character, adapted to the PS setting. See what works. Most of all, have fun and get into the role. Tell a story.
Isn't that really what role-playing is all about--having fun, being creative, telling stories?
...Okay, my pedantic and literary rant is now over. >_>
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I actually agree with Nikodemus - it is the game that encourages the perception of levelling... but I also see that some will 'act out' journeys, emotions etc, where as others will only grind at the mechanics - and now and then act their characters...
Not much one can do about it really - unless one can make a better method of mech'ing the acts of players to level their skills... and there I have no ideas at all.
I love the game - I level or quest now and then... sometimes [oocly] to gain skills/things I would have [icly] via other means..
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In my personal experience, those that read more are more imaginative than those that prefer only movies and the like. I don't feel that reading creates or produces imagination. I know that for me, my mind has a FAR more advanced special effects studio than ILM (think Star Wars). I also know plenty of people that refuse to read a book because they want to be spoon-fed a movie and reading a book is too much effort.
That being said... I agree a lot with Bamko. I am, at present, working for a Black Belt in Martial Arts. I am having to put a lot of effort in to make this happen that doesn't really feel like it has anything to do with kicking or punching, and quite frankly is a bit boring. But it is necessary to achieve what I want out of life. The same thing applies in-game to a certain extent. If you really want something, you will work the mechanics to get it, even if it doesn't feel applicable to your goals. The problem, as I see it, is that a fair number of people in-game prefer to pretend they have skills/stats they don't have and refuse to acquire. If they just RPed the stats/skills they have, there would be no problem, IMHO.
Also... If i were new to the game, reading this thread... I would be a bit stand-offish about RP. People are building it up to a point that you have to be able to write stuff of the quality of professional writers, off the top of your head to do it correctly??? I find that being polite and only asking questions or making statements my character would are sufficient for "Playing my Role". I do not need to script Shakespeare or Tolkien to be doing it "right". To my understanding neither of these authors exist in Y'liakum, so don't put so much pressure on people already worried about "doing it right".
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Also... If i were new to the game, reading this thread... I would be a bit stand-offish about RP. People are building it up to a point that you have to be able to write stuff of the quality of professional writers, off the top of your head to do it correctly??? I find that being polite and only asking questions or making statements my character would are sufficient for "Playing my Role". I do not need to script Shakespeare or Tolkien to be doing it "right". To my understanding neither of these authors exist in Y'liakum, so don't put so much pressure on people already worried about "doing it right".
Clearly in my literary fervor I got the wrong idea across. I was saying that -reading- (or viewing) great literature will help inspire one to RP more interestingly. I don't for a moment believe that I'm a Shakespeare or Tolkien, but I believe that the works of both authors inform my own writing, and by extension my role-play. This isn't a question of "doing it correctly"; it's instead a matter of find inspiration to get your creative juices flowing so you can tell more interesting stories. It's not a prerequisite, just a way to make things more interesting if people like. Whether particular authors exist in Y'liakum isn't the point; rather, it's about finding inspiration through excellent literature. I suggest reading some of the White Wolf Storytelling system's advice on how to make role-play a more memorable experience, for example--not the stuff about Vampires or Werewolves or whatnot, the stuff about how to tell an interesting story. The point was made that reading did nothing to expand creativity, and I was merely counterpointing it.
There's no reason why you can't just be creative on your own, but some of us find that experiencing a bit of sublimity is quite the fuel for our own Muse. ;)
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Just an idea to improve the situation. This isn't very well worked out or a final solution, but I think it could help and it is implementable at the moment without too much effort (But please correct me here if I'm wrong ;)).
Why not give a player the chance to create a RP character that is more powerful from the start then normal characters are. I would offer this option to players who spend a minimum amount of time in the game (As far as I know there are already timeouts like this for marriage and the advice channel) and who creates a second, third, ... character with that account. As minimum time in game for this I would suggest something like 100 in game hours or so. This character would start with much higher stats and skills (Maybe even maxed skills and one or two skills at 50). The downside side of this character would be that after some time he will be deleted again (Enough time to even make longer RPs with that char, but not enough time to make the char attractive as a base for a PL char, maybe something like 200 hours). This would allow players to create a new char for a RP and instantly use him even with the game mechanics.
Of course this wouldn't be the ideal solution for the RP vs. PL "problem", but I think it could help. I think most things that are needed for this solution are somehow already in game (Like the per char and per account timeouts or the different handling of a second char on a account (Only one char has to do the tutorial at the moment). Maybe the automatic deletion and the change of the char creation (client and server) could be a problem...but sorry, I don't know the PS sourcecode good enough ;)).
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Why not give a player the chance to create a RP character that is more powerful from the start then normal characters are. I would offer this option to players who spend a minimum amount of time in the game (As far as I know there are already timeouts like this for marriage and the advice channel) and who creates a second, third, ... character with that account. As minimum time in game for this I would suggest something like 100 in game hours or so. This character would start with much higher stats and skills (Maybe even maxed skills and one or two skills at 50). The downside side of this character would be that after some time he will be deleted again (Enough time to even make longer RPs with that char, but not enough time to make the char attractive as a base for a PL char, maybe something like 200 hours). This would allow players to create a new char for a RP and instantly use him even with the game mechanics.
I think the problem with this would be the fact that people tend to want to be able to play long-term characters. Also, I think that this answer presupposes that it's bad to build your character up through leveling. I'd argue that there's nothing wrong with leveling--what if your character just wants to be the greatest mage s/he can be? Thus, the character trains day and night until whatever magic skills s/he deems necessary have been learned. Then you can RP an experienced mage. You have to do the work to get to where you want to be if you want to RP being at a given level of something, certainly. You can, as many have pointed out here, RP a character who is dedicated to training but also has an interesting personality. As long as you're RPing that persona, you're RPing. You can be RPing while crafting, RPing while mining, or RPing while sitting around the tavern. It's all RP. The point is to be IC and to have fun. I'd hope that we can be creative about making even repetitive or "boring" actions more interesting just by treating them as IC instead of OOC. Thus, I can't enter play as an experienced mage, but I can get experience IC and -become- an experienced mage. It's all part of the game. :)
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The point here is not the imaginary RP vs Powerlevel fight everyone speaks about in a very unoriginal, moronic way. Power levelling is not a crime, you're supposed to raise your character if you feel like it. And RPing isn't spending the day at the tavern drinking and gambling. Even grinding is part of role play, since it's your character's training. Once and for all, if the game allows characters to be powerful, then it is consistent for characters to become powerful and therefore these characters are allowed and able to be role played.
One of the problems is that currently role play consistency is not considered in game. This means the game has no actual role play concept, since anyone can simply make believe whatever they feel like without being bothered.
Obviously some players will not see the sense in a game where you can simply type some words in your description and make it true and as such they will not engage in your type of role playing (currently when you say "role playing in PlaneShift" you actually mean "role playing the way I usually do in PlaneShift"). Another problem is that the current game mechanics entertains players away from role playing and into its "action->reward" structure and so they blindly follow.
If the game has a competent tutorial, where role playing is well defined and made use of, and if the system itself motivates role play (for example clearing out the idiotic NPC chatter that makes it like every character has to sound almost the same to be understood, making quests compatible with character-character relation, removing the need to fight to acquire all types of skill, enforcing consistent role play in the same way we enforce good behaviour and OOC chat) then we have almost everything we need to have a good role play ambience.
This is all very obvious, but at the same time pretty difficult due to plenty types of resistance.
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I think the problem with this would be the fact that people tend to want to be able to play long-term characters. Also, I think that this answer presupposes that it's bad to build your character up through leveling. I'd argue that there's nothing wrong with leveling--what if your character just wants to be the greatest mage s/he can be? Thus, the character trains day and night until whatever magic skills s/he deems necessary have been learned. Then you can RP an experienced mage. You have to do the work to get to where you want to be if you want to RP being at a given level of something, certainly. You can, as many have pointed out here, RP a character who is dedicated to training but also has an interesting personality. As long as you're RPing that persona, you're RPing. You can be RPing while crafting, RPing while mining, or RPing while sitting around the tavern. It's all RP. The point is to be IC and to have fun. I'd hope that we can be creative about making even repetitive or "boring" actions more interesting just by treating them as IC instead of OOC. Thus, I can't enter play as an experienced mage, but I can get experience IC and -become- an experienced mage. It's all part of the game. :)
I don't disagree with anything you said. That's why I think it's no final solution, more just an improvement. But this would give players the chance to create a char designed for a special RP (maybe a rogue or murderer). And the players wouldn't have to fear that every other char who plays longer then a week can easily kill or catch them. And spending a month in training a char that almost surely likely will die soon after his first appearance isn't very satisfying ;). And of course the player should get the option to decide if his new created character will be a normal char or one of those short time chars. This still would require role players to level their long term characters (or RP all of their abilities), but at the same time allows them to use the game mechanics for short term characters.
EDIT:
The point here is not the imaginary RP vs Powerlevel fight everyone speaks about in a very unoriginal, moronic way. Power levelling is not a crime, you're supposed to raise your character if you feel like it. And RPing isn't spending the day at the tavern drinking and gambling. Even grinding is part of role play, since it's your character's training. Once and for all, if the game allows characters to be powerful, then it is consistent for characters to become powerful and therefore these characters are allowed and able to be role played.
One of the problems is that currently role play consistency is not considered in game. This means the game has no actual role play concept, since anyone can simply make believe whatever they feel like without being bothered.
The idea behind my suggestion was to allow RPs to use the game mechanics. I think this would allow much more interaction between PLers and RPers. And more interaction "could" lead to a better understanding and more respect for each other.
[EDIT2:]
I think it can be funny to RP a robbery or a murder and the hunt for the criminal afterward. And my suggestion would allow the newly, just for the crime, created character to defend himself/herself with the game mechanics. With this, RPer maybe would include PLer much more in their RPs, and PLers wouldn't stay away from RPs because both parties would use the game mechanics
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The only thing I can think of that could reconcile the two camps would be to make everyone RP a little and level a little. For instance, if you really want to level, you could start off as a child or young character which will have to build up skills, but with restrictions. i.e. kids can't take on rogues and most wild animals. (that being the in character part)
On the other hand if you wanted to RP you could hand pick which specific skills you wanted your character to have and those would be the main skills of your character. (with fewer choices or chances to supplement those skills) You would start off with relatively lower skills than your character should have and you would have to work your way up to where your character is supposed to be.
In the future, there will be limits imposed which should iron out the wrinkles of the current system and PLing. i.e. klyros can't wear heavy armor, lemurs are on the delicate side, Enkis are better at combat... etc. After awhile, you will hit your character's limit and all the grinding in the world won't change it. :)
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In the future, there will be limits imposed which should iron out the wrinkles of the current system and PLing. i.e. klyros can't wear heavy armor, lemurs are on the delicate side, Enkis are better at combat... etc. After awhile, you will hit your character's limit and all the grinding in the world won't change it. :)
And in the meantime, there's nothing to stop anyone from RPing however it is they like, so there's really no reason for anyone to be upset over this that I can see. The only thing that bugs me is when people are blatantly OOC without using [brackets] or /tells. They talk about npc servers or quests or what-have-you, they use netspeak, etc. That's annoying and very out of keeping with what PS is supposed to be (or at least, what PS is advertised to be). If people are IC and leveling? Then cool. That's what they're doing IC. If people are OOC, even if they're socializing, then they're not RPing. The problem isn't leveling vs. socializing. The problem is getting people to maintain an immersive experience while doing whatever it is that they do. I agree with what has been said before here: more experienced players should seek to help and nurture the newer players so they can be guided into more effective play-styles, compatible with the RP-oriented nature of PS.
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These types of post I assume are always started by the "rp'ers". I think it is ironic that the "powerlevelers" don't really care and are the laid back ones even though their goal is to be a bad arse and kick booty.
All joking aside, I was a "powerleveler" when I started but role play more now. In fact I don't really train at all anymore. I think everyone wants to have a strong character at first, and then that gets boring, and they either leave or start roleplaying. I for one finally figured out that I could either grind and grind until one day I could kill an ulber with one hit or win the occactional duel; or I could never train again and start roleplaying/questing/etc., and save myself several weeks/months of kill kill kill train train train.
I always roleplayed while I "powerleveled" anyway. At least the "powerlevers" seem to have a job. Isn't that more reflective of exsistance than sitting around a tavern drinking all day :P Oh wait, I guess some people do that in rl as well. ;D
Point is, if some don't want to "roleplay" than ignore them if you don't like it. If they want to come roleplay the guy/girl that has been off on a great journey and visit the city on occasion when they are taking a break from leveling up their armor than so be it. They will not ignore you when you decide that you really want to level up your (insert skill here) and go train next to them.
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Be careful not to mistake powerleveling for being OOC.
To come back to the topic, here is an example of how I include powerlevelling in my roleplay (or vice versa ;D). One day, Orgonwukh was beating up a rogue in Ojaveda to train his dagger skill. Morla, Allola, Thidin and Zakrei came by and they all talked while Orgonwukh continued his training...
Zakrei says: Didn't you once considered daggers to be sissy ?
Orgonwukh says: I changed my way of figthing Zakrei...
Zakrei says: Quite ellegant,......, for a non Enkidukai
[Deleted some small talk about dagger quality and some IC insults between Allola and Orgonwukh.]
Zakrei says: So why are daggers so populars, these days ?
Allola says: Because, Daggers are faster.
Allola grins.
Orgonwukh says: Because... uhm... you can hide them in your sleeves, mate?
Zakrei says: I know, but back then, when i pointed out this facts, i was called a sissy
Zakrei looks at Orgonwukh
Thidin shrugs "Maybe you were."
Orgonwukh says: Well, maybe the reason were not the daggers...
Zakrei says: I doubt that
Orgonwukh says: You sure do. *smirks*
Orgonwukh says: Hmm, I think I need to visit Nyshyn. You all know her already, eh?
Zakrei says: Yes
Orgonwukh says: Well, I am off then to visit her. She has a nice rack. *chuckles*
Zakrei says: She can show you a few things with her daggers, believe me
Allola glares at Orgonwukh.
Thidin looks at Orgonwukh and shakes her head
This is of course no profound roleplay, but it explains my char's behaviour (taining daggers although he is usually wielding sabres) ICly.
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I created "Dragnoor" way back in march 2008 ? Almost maxed in 3 skills, 2 ways. And maxed in 2 skills and 1 way. So as you can see YES iam a power leveller. I'm not an RP'er.
I've read every post since my initial post. Some digressed, others were critical. This is a good thing is it not ? Clearly indicating the old saying "Send reinforcements were going over the top." Ending in - "Send 3 & 4 pence i'm going to the shop." Its human nature to diversify.
Talad only knows how I regard PL as such fun. Aye the grinding is tiresome. But I can stand alone vs almost anyone in the game & win a duel. Or fight 3 ulbers simultaneously. I can explore alone without worrying whether I'll die. This is why I enjoy the net results of PL. It gives me real tangible power to do almost anything in the game.
My literary background is somewhat limited but I know its given me insight. Nobody can challenge this. Iam an orphan bought up by the state & educated by the University of life. My saviour being the armed forces. All these things come together to form my character which I consider IC almost ALL the time.
I look on Hard core RP'ers with admiration & perplexity. I know at some point I will be maxed out & exploration/killing completed. No corner of the map will be left untouched by Dragnoor. So what then? Form a guild and declare war? Stand at a exit/entrance and challenge everyone who comes hither?
No.
I will HAVE to swallow my ignorance & learn another new skill. The art of RP. Having the ability to go and fight if asked within the storyline to do so.
My point is that RP (I dont mean that namby pamby stuff) Is my future in Yliakum.
Simply grouping with a bunch of like minded mages/warriors to go hunting Malbernauts wont cut it. I stand the risk of getting bored & leaving the game like so many others have done.
I know of players who are maxed in all ways/skills and still can RP with satisfaction & continuity. They have my respect.
The initial post asked what can we do to bring the 2 schools together ? I honestly dont know. And im not a noob i've played MMo's for over 15 years.
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yes, but...
What about the RP-ers who pretend they are PL-ers and then expect you to play along? You want to claim you are a master fighter, and thief and try to "attack me" using rp? sure, no problem, let's step outside and play this out. (or do it outside, away from the guards.. and leave your auto accept on!)
what? not willing to because you never actually got around to learning how to duel or achieve any significant skills? Too bad.
This is different about some skills, like picking pockets. Just /tell the person and ask if they are willing... like maybe (you /roll 1 100 and if it rolls 95 or higher, I get 1000 tria or a minor item (not best sword... or irreplaceable items but significant item. 50-94, get that many tria, but 25-49 You catch me and demand 200 tria to let me go, and less than 24 you get 500 tria from me and I /die in scuffle (better than turning in to guards...eh?))
I may negotiate the numbers and rewards, but if close to fair, I usually play along... Maybe I will put this on my site as a guide for how to pick pockets...
But to walk up and insult and "attack someone and then not follow through because you could not fight a clacker... well, that is just silly.
in overview, no mechanics, RP it. Mechanics exist? Play it. Otherwise you might as well be just RPing in a chat room. (I have tried that in #planeshift, and no one seems to want to RP there, yet some might as well, how the mechanics are sneered at by the few. I personally like the mechanics and eagerly await every upgrade!
My never to be humble opinion anyway.
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in overview, no mechanics, RP it. Mechanics exist? Play it. Otherwise you might as well be just RPing in a chat room.
That is so true - I started before the mechanics were sufficient to use them in RP, but never the less - I do -when I feel like it - Level now, as I don't RP what my character in Mechanics cannot do... I must admit I regret having deleted Celorrim's character a couple of years ago - as she was maxed then... and Lolitra is not maxed in skills as much despite being played more.
It always seems the game crashes when I have in depth RP downtime to actually level up hehehe - but that is down to the way I like to play, not down to any one else.
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Apis is a weapons merchant and as such has had to learn weapons skills and the stats to go with them, as well as stats to be a weapons merchant, ie - strength, to carry two large leather bags of merchandise.
these were gained mostly by PLing. Is this IC or OOC? Probably a bit of both.
What I hate about the game mechanics is making a merchant do 'quests' - petty little jobs for people (NPCs) that are too lazy to walk to the next town or are so forgetful that they loose everything...
Apis, as a successful merchant (before one one of the DB cleans left him almost broke and with no merchandise), could afford to buy things like the glyphs from quests and winch access. Why does he have to do OOC running around to gain IC use of these things?
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Dragnoor, you don't have to be completely outmaxed to start learning to roleplay (on a side note, nor does anyone need to die or tick anyone off to start a plotline; there's more to roleplay than just fighting). In fact, in my opinion, powerlevelling and roleplay should be done at the same time. Orgonwukh's post is a good example of that.
You also don't have to have a strong literary background...it does help quite a bit, but respect for the English language and willingness to participate in storylines helps more.
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You also don't have to have a strong literary background...it does help quite a bit, but respect for the English language and willingness to participate in storylines helps more.
I agree you don't have to have a strong literary background. This may be what keeps some people from roleplaying. Here is a different take on that and this might help with "bringing pl and rp'ers together"
When you want to roleplay but are not completly comfortable that you will make a mistake or mispell something don't worry about it. Using words like "ye" (side note: I hate that word) and others like "thus" and "thee" are not necessary. Talk like you do if you are not comfortable trying to come up with big fancy words or some strange dialect.
Also, spelling. You have to remember that ic your char is hearing and not reading what others are saying. As long as you come close to how something you want to say is spelled don't worry about it. In rl I might not know how to spell something but I know how to say it. When someone hears me say that word they will not in return say to me 'hey I think you spelled that wrong', right?
Words like through - threw and see - sea should be used in there correct form but just in case you do mess up, big deal. The other chars ic'ly should have heard you just fine ;)
Roleplay and have fun, isn't that what this is all about.
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This is a tangent, I know, but personally I don't think there's anything wrong with using "ye" - I do it if it would sound like my character is saying it like that (she uses "you" if she's talking slowly). But, within the context of your post it seems that you mean you don't have to use flowery medieval dialogue. I agree - do it if you want to, but it isn't necessary.
It can, however, be fun to have your character use a unique vernacular. I have a child character struggles her way through bigger words, and I often spell them the way she tries to pronounce them.
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I don't know maybe the so called RPers can't stand that so called PL hit the skill limits and have a game mechanics edge over the RPers :s Probably not an issue to me.
Then people wonder how to merge the two groups. I proposed more real and believable ways of the training and then noone knows how to do it i gues, to bad coz this will raise my postcount :\
So, nothing new again, but hopefully remind yourself this:
There is a problem with good RPing taking more time than PL and with miserable products compared to the latter. If PL is more time taking, the issue is decreased. (If right now someone is thinking about posting an idea about making the skiling longer by direct decreasin the skill gains, stop yourself or your ass is going to stink with fried skin) The fun need to remain the same/better. If so, if the amount of killed NPCs will decrease a lot, something else has to fill that time.
It can be awareness of something getting better in the game (like resource prices or structures, which makes advancing easier, anything but the character skills). For instance when a convoy of resources won't be robbed by local bandits and who knows, maybe player characters). When people mining the ore will have to think about taking care about the corridors and more for the earned money. And so forth
People will come to arena not to assasinate and rob the never-ending flow of gladiators, but to fight for their right, honor, reputation or money/all of these.
Is it completly unfun? I mean the real approach. Do majority of you want the common MMOG monster spawning and killing for the loot?
If you don't like it, don't really count the whole dev team realise about this by reading this topic, because it is really impossible to develop a game and at the same time read every single post people make at the forums.
You have to think and post solutions for a RP game as we want it, because you never know when someone who ca actually make your wishes happen will read your post.
Oh yeah, maybe devs already knows the way of merging PL and RPing but it is maybe a lot of developing.
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I just have to step in here and say that standing by a trainer, or elsewhere, casting magic for the sole purpose of raising your level is just wrong. This is not limited to magic of course, training your armor by standing in a swarm of critters that cannot hurt you is the same thing, There are probably other similar things I cannot think of right now. This is not playing the game to me this is gaming the mechanics. I have lost respect for more than one prominent character after seeing them do this. To me combining roleplaying with levelling demands that you only use skills when they are useful. I do understand the temptation and cannot say that I have never succumbed to it, especially in the two cases I mentioned. Magic is underpowered at low levels and takes a long time and armor training is only available via pvp if the npcs are down or not fighting back. Still I prefer to get my practice naturally. Now if you want to fight a swarm of rats that cannot hurt you to train your magic and armor at the same time it is different than just letting them attack you or repeatedly healing yourself when you are undamaged.
That is just me though, I suppose.
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I just have to step in here and say that standing by a trainer, or elsewhere, casting magic for the sole purpose of raising your level is just wrong. This is not limited to magic of course, training your armor by standing in a swarm of critters that cannot hurt you is the same thing, There are probably other similar things I cannot think of right now. This is not playing the game to me this is gaming the mechanics. I have lost respect for more than one prominent character after seeing them do this. To me combining roleplaying with levelling demands that you only use skills when they are useful. I do understand the temptation and cannot say that I have never succumbed to it, especially in the two cases I mentioned. Magic is underpowered at low levels and takes a long time and armor training is only available via pvp if the npcs are down or not fighting back. Still I prefer to get my practice naturally. Now if you want to fight a swarm of rats that cannot hurt you to train your magic and armor at the same time it is different than just letting them attack you or repeatedly healing yourself when you are undamaged.
That is just me though, I suppose.
You have to remember that an army trains not just in war but in peacetime and usually in a safe area. Also I would assume that when they train their trainers are fairly close by. It would almost seem wrong if you didn't train next to your trainer. I guess you could always move 20 feet to the left or something :P Shutting up now :-X ;D
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Well this is not a new argument, certainly. Tell me though, how do you detect you did a healing spell correctly if you have no injury to cure? How do you tell your defensive wind is effective if the only things it blocks are insects? Standing by a trainer practising is taking advantage of the fact that he cannot walk away from you. For the kind of 24/7 supervision this simulates you would pay a much higher price.
In the army there is the hierarchy of trainers and training periods are spaced out. Even at that the trainee is often left to drill unsupervised, generally in the group with other students. If you are training pvp combat does your trainer spar with you endlessly or does he eventually have better things to do?
These things are gaming the system and no amount of justification will change that. Hopefully when the system changes these things will have been taken into account.
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Standing by a trainer practising is taking advantage of the fact that he cannot walk away from you. For the kind of 24/7 supervision this simulates you would pay a much higher price.
For the price people are paying these 'trainers', they should not only be able to stand in front of them 24/7 to train, but also be getting a massage, pedicure, extreme makeover, first class tickets on a privately owned pterosaur, three weeks vacation at the Dome Ritz, eat the finest meals available, and finally, be able to wipe their dirty boots on the trainer's backs as the trainer personally carries them around on his/her back the entire time.
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UTM... that is very true. A falchion is 400 trias... This is a moderate weapon that is going to be very expensive for most of the NPCs (judging from dialog with and quest given by them). My last level of magic cost me 10 times that. That was just for a single level... and I didn't need materials of any kind... just knowledge. Levrus should have retired to his VERY OWN Stalactite by now with the rates he charges.
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Hmm.. the never ending RP/PL discussion..
Sure, many don't like to read about the same thing or that "..there is nothing new.." so, I brought a small sample:
Back in the days of the bugs (I mean when we were really plagued by bugs that affected the most commonly used mechanics), there used to be a problem with the furnaces. The slots were buggy and there were constant disconnections and crashes. If you happened to have something in the oven, get ready! your beloved ores and ingots may get lost.
It happened several times to me and saw it happening very often. But that's not interesting at all.. It was outrageous! tho, funny sometimes ;).
{ No matter how angry you got while playing the ends of levels in Contra, or the thousand times you repeated actions having Mario jump over the turtle to earn 100 lives, you still did it! (there are newer games around but I love classics). That's the nature of gaming. It's pure gaming 101: Players have to suffer to get something, to feel a challenge.}
Well, ores being lost, the first thing one would attempt once back online was to find a culprit and guess what you had to use to get them back?.. The infamous ever-hurting lame RolePlay! (ok, that was a bit out of line). AND THERE YOU HAVE IT
Roleplay should never be considered separate from 'actions by mechanics' in PlaneShift. Tho, they may act separately, one can and should rely on the other for backup in the joy of gaming. So, if you agree, try to stop thinking of them appart.
If you are a dev or part of the PS staff, try to think of it.. I'm not saying players shouldn't be grinded to the bones. On the contrary: THEY MUST BE GRINDED TO THE BONES LIKE IN ANY OTHER GAME. but there are ways to do it that actually encourage them to keep on. And if you believe RolePlay can be forced via settings, try to see which way you're turning the knob.. Perhaps it should be the other way. RP and PL/mechanics will either walk together or... (well, I dunno).
All 4 now..
PS. Hey! No cherrypicking! ok?
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in overview, no mechanics, RP it. Mechanics exist? Play it. Otherwise you might as well be just RPing in a chat room.
That's not it. That's certainly not it. Let me rephrase it for you: "In overview, if there are no mechanics to support an action, ask the players involved if you can role play it. Mechanics exist? Use the them to role play the action."
Do you get it?
"Mechanics" =! (is different from) "Not Role Playing". (Mechanics are simply tools, not powerleveller territory.)
"Role Playing" =! (is different from) "Make Believe". (Role Play, means you're actually following a role, the path of your character that has to abide to certain challenging rules and mechanics (hence why it's called a game). It's different from Making Believe because when you make believe, there are no rules.)
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Hmm.. Back to what Prolix said...
Well this is not a new argument, certainly. Tell me though, how do you detect you did a healing spell correctly if you have no injury to cure? How do you tell your defensive wind is effective if the only things it blocks are insects?
[...]
I thought about that, but I don't think casting life infusion if you are not injured is just "gaming the mechanics". I mean, if you want to be able to give first aid in real life, you go to a first aid course. And there you practice cardiac massage and rescue breathing on a plastic puppet. How to detect if you do it correctly? Well, not from that training, certainly. The puppet isn't going to come alife, no matter how right you do it. But you do the movements repeatedly, again and again. So If you ever come into a situation where it is needed, you will hopefully remember them.
It's the same in a lot of areas. When you make your diver's license, you practise emergency reactions as well, like sharing air. Again, the purpose is to get the movement commited to memory deep enough that you will automaticly remember it if there ever is a true emergency. So I think it does make sense that you get training points for casting a spell like life infusion, even if you are not injured.
Or another example: when I started to do rock climbing, I didn't know any of the knots climbers use. After somebody told me how to do them, I bought myself a thin bit of rope that I carried with me everywhere. When I was bored, I would take it out and do the knots over and over again - even if there was no rock in sight. In the end, I could to the knots without thinking, even with my eyes closed - and next time I went climbing, I had no problems to tie into the harness, even though it was raining, so I had water in my eyes and my hands were moving clumsy because it was so cold.
Now, I'm not saying standing next to a training and casting the same spell over and over again is the thing to do (apart from the fact that that sounds really boring, anyway :)) .
But if Seren walks back from Oja to Hydlaa and is exausted from running, why shouldn't she summon a defensive wind around herself just for practise while she takes a break? To get the words and the movements down, to make sure she will do them right when she really needs it? And by doing that every time she takes a break, I would assume her to get better at it.
I don't think doing that is so "wrong", even if there are no mosters around the spell could fend off..
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I'll come back to the original post, because I read too many digressions here; the thread being combining RP and PL, and not comparing IC and OOC. For that matter, I'll personally use RP and IC as synonyms.
Therefore, I understand the question as "How can we RP when leveling, and level when RPing?". Because you don't marry people by force (anymore), that would be the way to make 2 arguably opposite kinds of players interact. Well, first, same method for both: show them that combining is just more fun. RP your training/practice routine and it will be less of a routine, and RP your actual character, otherwise just call it storytelling.
For example, play a clumsy hopeless thief if you want to be a thief but don't get any better at it. Rob, fail, run and get mobbed and stoned or lynched everyday. Become a famous loser. And don't forget to die often. That's the point of RPing; it's not about showing off, it's about being someone you won't be in real life.
I think the tools for RPers are more accessible. Inconsistencies are only there because the game is far from complete, and players know that. One day, would-be wizards won't need to go mining anymore.
For PLers, the opportunities of RPing are a bit more scarce, or at least not that obvious to the players.
- The first opportunity to RP for a PLer is the economy. As I see it more and more player controlled, that's the way to go. Now, trading in itself is no more role-playing than socialising. How to stop all the disguised PLing that is the current market, I don't know, but I hope the Auction tab will disappear when in-game substitutes will be there (like fixed billboards, payed selling stands and taxes, illegal hawking, or whatever is planned).
- The 2nd best opportunity is player-to-player teaching. The subject is already debated elsewhere. But if no RPer levels up, that feature would be useless.
- Events are great for that purpose. Maybe GMs will design events for more PL-oriented players, meaning: where these players tend to be more often, like the arena. There would be RPing PLers anyway, to contaminate the PLers who don't really know what a role is.
- Player events would do the same. Sfmluth the wizard goes to the arena to recruit 1 or 2 bodyguards for a trip, so sets up an instant mini-tournament. Of course the competitors have to speak and RP to be chosen, for they need to be reliable. Benefit for the kid whose Doom2 teleporter accidentally brought to PS? Something valuable given by Sfmluth, and an introduction to a possible different way of playing. Benefit for Sfmluth? None, but he is a hardcore RPer, a missionary, so his suffering and expenses are worth it.
- I've never dueled, but I think this doesn't exist: when a challenge is accepted, have an open verbal phase. It can be used for prestige, taunting, whatever. PLers would surely do something with it if it can bring them some benefit for the physical contest. Along the same line, have a verbal phase when one fighter is dead, for last words, curses, final humiliation or whatever. The point is, a good RPed actual fight is more fun than a dice controlled silent fight or a RPed blah blah resolved fake fight (which is not, actually, RP).
- Can you actually run away from a duel, and get out of the challenge mode? Retreat? If not, I see that as necessary. As well as a "surrender" command. Penalties satisfy the PLer, while the RPer has more choices for his acting.
- Quests are actually an intermediate to role-play. Some quests should be famous for requiring some fighting and good reward. So famous that no new player can ignore them for more than a few hours of play. NPCs mention them, like the combat trainer when he is not even asked. Signs mention them. Players mention them openly, for they are told to spread the word. And they tell you who to go to to get the quest started. Of course, the fight part is the core, but there has to be some chat with several NPCs as well.
I know that I concentrated my attention on the fighters, but that's how I understood the post. Rising ones craft is not PLing, it's IC. Mining to become a fighter is only temporary, not a game feature.
It's good to have all sorts of players around. Doom players can't bother me, because they can't force me to fight. They may, but only if they RP first :). I find a lot of features in the game OOC, on the other hand, but I care little about it. Hydlaa is full of people, you can meet many, and many you won't talk to again. That's IC as well. It's not up to role-players to attract levelers, it's up to the game, and to players who explore all its aspects, to attract all those who don't know all the possibilities. Attract with honey. Hell, play it right, and I may even duel some day.
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- I've never dueled, but I think this doesn't exist: when a challenge is accepted, have an open verbal phase. It can be used for prestige, taunting, whatever. PLers would surely do something with it if it can bring them some benefit for the physical contest. Along the same line, have a verbal phase when one fighter is dead, for last words, curses, final humiliation or whatever. The point is, a good RPed actual fight is more fun than a dice controlled silent fight or a RPed blah blah resolved fake fight (which is not, actually, RP).
- Can you actually run away from a duel, and get out of the challenge mode? Retreat? If not, I see that as necessary. As well as a "surrender" command. Penalties satisfy the PLer, while the RPer has more choices for his acting.
There is a "yield" command, where your opponent can spare your life or kill you if you use it. I think you can also use the "stop attack" shortcut. Also, sometimes people smack talk or whatever before and after the duel, too - I think that should be done more often anyway.
Personally, I'd like to have a mechanics-based duel within an RP some time, but usually my characters' opponents tend to be unleveled and roleplaying some special ability mechanics doesn't support - which I don't mind (though I would like to see less of the "/my eyes turn red" - your whole DNA would have to be altered for this to actually happen - or "/my *body part* bursts into *colour* flames" - which technically should blind them if it's the eyes and horribly disfigure the body part in question if it happens :P ). I don't whine about these things in-game, since I hate it when RP is disrupted by OOC bickering, but for once I'd like to face a baddie (yeah, I have yet to play my "evil" character) with just blades and/or regular magic. Y'know, something they'd at least have a chance of surviving, thus wouldn't have to run away from like my main character does so often.
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- I've never dueled, but I think this doesn't exist: when a challenge is accepted, have an open verbal phase. It can be used for prestige, taunting, whatever. PLers would surely do something with it if it can bring them some benefit for the physical contest. Along the same line, have a verbal phase when one fighter is dead, for last words, curses, final humiliation or whatever. The point is, a good RPed actual fight is more fun than a dice controlled silent fight or a RPed blah blah resolved fake fight (which is not, actually, RP).
- Can you actually run away from a duel, and get out of the challenge mode? Retreat? If not, I see that as necessary. As well as a "surrender" command. Penalties satisfy the PLer, while the RPer has more choices for his acting.
There is a "yield" command, where your opponent can spare your life or kill you if you use it. I think you can also use the "stop attack" shortcut. Also, sometimes people smack talk or whatever before and after the duel, too - I think that should be done more often anyway.
Personally, I'd like to have a mechanics-based duel within an RP some time, but usually my characters' opponents tend to be unleveled and roleplaying some special ability mechanics doesn't support - which I don't mind (though I would like to see less of the "/my eyes turn red" - your whole DNA would have to be altered for this to actually happen - or "/my *body part* bursts into *colour* flames" - which technically should blind them if it's the eyes and horribly disfigure the body part in question if it happens :P ). I don't whine about these things in-game, since I hate it when RP is disrupted by OOC bickering, but for once I'd like to face a baddie (yeah, I have yet to play my "evil" character) with just blades and/or regular magic. Y'know, something they'd at least have a chance of surviving, thus wouldn't have to run away from like my main character does so often.
I would have to agree with this point. Although, some might say it's equally boring to watch without the RP CGI, but what is there to say that both can't have a symbotic relationship? a good parasite doesn't kill it's host...okay, bad example, but you understand what I'm saying. Besides, if we do allow tolerance for both to be in PlaneShift together, then we could possible attract more players and also keep them. I dunno, just saying. :)
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*Moh raises her hand shyly and stands up
I have an idea to help "merge" the two (that was the original question, right?) :) Perhaps certain, well chosen, people who seriously RP and are committed to improving this game in this manner could give out quests just like an NPC? Or they could be part of an NPC quest. . .Maybe some of us should have an item, or group of items, or tria, that we can give as a reward to a quest we make up? It wouldn't have to give a character any experience, but I know that when I first started playing this game I would have gone on a quest just to get a good dagger or two. When entering the game, a new player would be told that certain quests could only be obtained from other players and that some quests required interaction with other players. Like getting a piece of information or something. As previously stated, you can't make people play the way you want them to, but perhaps we can force them to take a stab at it (no pun intended . . . okay maybe a little bit) If this idea could be implemented along with gently guiding those new players about the ways of RPing we might have something.
My favorite technique to get someone to RP (or at least try) who is blatantly OOC is to look at them quizzically and tell them "I don't understand what you mean. Please try saying that again".
Gee, I hope that someone else hasn't already brought up this idea - it came to me suddenly as I was reading this thread and in my impatience to get this idea out (before I forgot it) I only skimmed the last two pages. . .
*Moh blushes, looks around and quickly takes her seat again.
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Players giving quests and such is a good idea. I don't think it is necessarily a solution to the problem, but a good idea nonetheless.
The problem here, is that the players willing to give quests are not going to be on 24/7. This is the biggest problem I see in-game with the "free market economy" so to speak also. I talk to tons of people in-game. I keep in character, but I am also forced to grind to be able to accomplish my goals. What I am noticing the longer I learn my crafts, is that nobody is interested in anything but the best... so until I get to where I can make the best, all i can do is give my crafts away to new characters I meet to help them out.
Anyways... kinda side-tracked myself there... but I think that player to player interaction is a very good thing for getting people away from ONLY mindless grinding, but I don't think that people can/should really be forced to do so by the tutorial or whatever like you suggest.
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a few items I must respond to...
first, as per http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33558.msg387535#msg387535 I see your point, and the first part I like... Yes, you need to get permission to, say, pick pockets, since not implemented.. but that was not my point. Let me paraphrase for myself... though you are always welcome to paraphrase it to incorporate your views.. but please do not paraphrase it "for me". Minor but important point.. but I like to speak for myself, though I think I agree with a lot of your points...
There are 2 kinds of roleplayers, as I (and apparently many) see it, those who play their role IC and those too lazy to actually play the game who want to pretend they are something they are not. I am not talking about those who RP picking pockets.. or other non-implemented skills, but those who pretend they are more skilled than they are in skills they could train in, if they were actually playing the roles they claim to cherish so much. IRL we all know people like this... the guy who claims he is a master streetfighter or MMA star... who can not throw a punch.. The guy who claims he is the Haxxor, who can not tell the difference between C++ and pig latin.
Play IC? Good, I try to as well (though /tells are hard for me, if you are not within sight, then hard to think you are whispering to me)
Want to pretend you are something you are not, well, then I (Bamko) sees you (INGAME) as a poser. so if you are playing the role of a poser, well, good job, you are doing it well.
I (Bamko) am a journeyman swordsmith. I have the 2 perfect [Q300] sabres I crafted to prove it. The other day I had a "master swordsmith" ask me in a tell where to buy a sword handle (a question I dont mind from new players.. even wrote an IC Ingame book on swordmaking).
So MY VIEW is, Play IC Ingame as much as possible... some ingame as in RL are more social, and more elloquent. BE who your character is. But dont cry that I am OOC when I point you out as the IC Ingame poser your character is. See, I am IC, you are the one being OOC with your cries of not being treated as you want to be as per your views on RPing..
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33558.msg387537#msg387537 right on, well said
RE "Perhaps certain, well chosen, people who seriously RP and are committed to improving this game in this manner could give out quests just like an NPC?"
Bamko often sends people on such quests. Need a sabre? Well, I need 9 iron ores, one coal lump. Or.. and I like this one... I explain IC where the iron mine is north of hydlaa is, and tell them about a NPC near there, that I was supposed to go run an errand for... go ask them if you can help them, and report back to me with errand.. then I point them to the library.. ask them to finish quest and bring me back a blank unopened book... and then I "upgrade" their sabre form 50/50 to what I have on hand... say 180/180.. and write them a guide in metalworking or something in the book... " Anyone can give quests. No need to wait for the DEVS or GMS to approve it. Just start doing it? (and when they then bring me ore, I can make them a second sabre too, and we both made a new freind... all IC) (and MOH, good stuff, good ideas, no need to blush, eh? he he he)
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Quick definition of PLer and RPer in this post. PLer is someone who enjoys leveling up fast and getting stronger. RPer is someone who enjoy acting out their character (based on mechanics and stats as much as possible). The extremes to these are Trollevelers and Elitists. Then there are Textplayers, who use only text to 'RP', and ignore all mechanics.
1 Powerlevelers = good. Can be IC, but don't have to be as long as they respect RPers.
2 Roleplayers = good. Sometimes powerlevel as well. Fine as long as they respect those that do not want to 'get into' the story.
3 Textplayers = ok as long as they keep their own little worlds to themselves.
4 Trollevelers = bad. They do not respect that RPers have as much fun as those who level, and go out of their way to insult them.
5 Elitists = bad. They try to force everyone to their version of roleplaying or drive everyone out who does not fit -their- style.
You want to bring the first two together. The first step is making things the powerlevers and the roleplayers enjoy separately, can do separately, and do not have to interact if they do not wish to. In other words, give both 'sides' a sanctuary from each other.
Second step: Make an overlap both sides can enjoy if they want to, incorporating elements from both styles of play. Give roleplayers a -good- reason to level (with options in doing it), and give levelers a role to play that is not RP heavy and still lets them be the PLer (soldier is a good example).
Step three: Ban all 4s and 5s. Leave Textplayers in their own little worlds. Mute any that come out.
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Thanks UTM. I will use those definitions :)
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I have a Suggestion.
Add several quests that advance you one or more levels in a skill. That would be RP/IC and get rid of some of the grinding.
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Under. Nice.. very nice... Grabbing link to your post! YOINK!
If not the official position, it should be. IMO.
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the players mix the two to gether.
getting a group of people for particular reasons. negotiating exploring trading , sharing experiences about the world.
I'd like to get some iron , i cannot carry it all , Limitation by game mechanics.
someone else has the same problem.
Work with them , over come the challenge , using a roleplay interaction with the other player.
I see this happening alot, or at least i encourage it , because team work = efficient >:)
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Quick definition of PLer and RPer in this post. PLer is someone who enjoys leveling up fast and getting stronger. RPer is someone who enjoy acting out their character (based on mechanics and stats as much as possible). The extremes to these are Trollevelers and Elitists. Then there are Textplayers, who use only text to 'RP', and ignore all mechanics.
1 Powerlevelers = good. Can be IC, but don't have to be as long as they respect RPers.
2 Roleplayers = good. Sometimes powerlevel as well. Fine as long as they respect those that do not want to 'get into' the story.
3 Textplayers = ok as long as they keep their own little worlds to themselves.
4 Trollevelers = bad. They do not respect that RPers have as much fun as those who level, and go out of their way to insult them.
5 Elitists = bad. They try to force everyone to their version of roleplaying or drive everyone out who does not fit -their- style.
You want to bring the first two together. The first step is making things the powerlevers and the roleplayers enjoy separately, can do separately, and do not have to interact if they do not wish to. In other words, give both 'sides' a sanctuary from each other.
Second step: Make an overlap both sides can enjoy if they want to, incorporating elements from both styles of play. Give roleplayers a -good- reason to level (with options in doing it), and give levelers a role to play that is not RP heavy and still lets them be the PLer (soldier is a good example).
Step three: Ban all 4s and 5s. Leave Textplayers in their own little worlds. Mute any that come out.
I just read this post today and I have to say I love you. *hugs*
Hey, do not run away :P
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WooHoo I have a new title Textplayer, please feel free to ignore disregard any input I have made over the last 4 years.
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What the heck? We've got too many classes already.
Shouldn't we simply concentrate on the behaviors that do not fit this game's ambition? Currently the game accepts characters of all types: weak, strong and really, really strong. This means that a character that is a cook while also being a weaponsmaster and a powerful mage is very valid. If we don't like this, we should just give our opinion about the levelling system and hope it gets changed.
If we don't like people that godmod we should have GM's monitor that, intervening wherever any obvious abuse happens, just like they scout for OOC chat and unruly behavior.
I think this is the kind of strategy that we should look for.
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3 Textplayers = ok as long as they keep their own little worlds to themselves.
I prefer hearing textplayers than OOC. The background conversations in the tavern do not break the immersive aspect of the game, unlike this kind of conversation:
- Good morning, smith. I need a new blade to replace my broken one before the next tournament.
- ok. q300 long sword for 20k ?
The only real tool for RP is chatting. So the best way to damage RPing is by polluting the chat box, brackets or not.
Step three: Ban all 4s and 5s. Leave Textplayers in their own little worlds. Mute any that come out.
Sounds elitist to me.
Besides, adding more definitions, which could be continued, is out of scope of this thread.
So I go back to the subject, and agree with Sangwa. If one could PL in only a limited number of stats and skills, characters would have more flavor. Currently everybody, and specially the strong characters, look the same, dress the same, and do the same things at the same places. And they max the same.
One example: I believe the stats maxes should be related to their values at character creation, like x2.
I would actually suggest many things, but most of the game mechanics are still to be implemented and then balanced; so it's wait and see. However, if maxed characters learn the new skills when they are implemented one by one, they'll quickly master them as well, already having the needed PPs and trias in store.
I believe that the PPs earned with one skill shouldn't be used to progress in another skill, as in a "kill gladiator - learn cooking" routine.
Characterised PLed characters are easier to RP with, and acted characters may then be powerlevel ICly. Plus the motivation for new characters to become something that not everybody already is.
Is it possible to make a poll with a series of yes/no questions along these lines?
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While I support balance over equality among the races, I do not think that 2x your initial starting stats is a good idea. I think that not every character should be able to have the same max for all stats, but not the way you describe.
Implementing all sorts of measures to try to force people into not (ab)using the mechanics is not going to work long-term, and IMHO not worth the R&D manpower given other aspects of the game that need attention.
The initial intent of this thread was to approach this from the perspective of cooperation. This is a good goal, but requires a little effort (read this as a bit less hubris) on both ends of the spectrum. Unfortunately, it appears to be devolving into the age-old argument... and since the PLers don't usually care about the forums, it turns into PLer-bashing. :(
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Heh, I just say we all level and roleplay. Makes life so much easier :P
I'm more towards the rp side to tell the truth (as I hate leveling, mostly just the current system) but I suppose its worth it so others don't complain that I roleplay strong characters without using the game mechanics to make them that way. I say PLers will be PLers, RPers will be RPers. No way to really change that but as long as you respect that others play the game and have fun in different ways than you then things should work out fine. There will always members in both groups and we don't have to interact with each other (though it would be nice if we could without fighting :P ). We should just make sure we don't go out of our way to disturb/bash what either group thinks of as fun.
As for this:
While I support balance over equality among the races, I do not think that 2x your initial starting stats is a good idea. I think that not every character should be able to have the same max for all stats, but not the way you describe.
I think this problem will eventually be solved and already planned to be solved. If you look at the PS website it mentions starter values for race stats. Then when you look at race descriptions they mention limits and strengths that each race has. This most likely means that in the future everyone will have limits depending on the race they pick. Depending on your choices in character creation your character will probably be even more so limited/strengthened so I'd have to say its all a matter of time before ideas like this actually appear ingame.
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While I support balance over equality among the races, I do not think that 2x your initial starting stats is a good idea. I think that not every character should be able to have the same max for all stats, but not the way you describe.
Implementing all sorts of measures to try to force people into not (ab)using the mechanics is not going to work long-term, and IMHO not worth the R&D manpower given other aspects of the game that need attention.
The initial intent of this thread was to approach this from the perspective of cooperation. This is a good goal, but requires a little effort (read this as a bit less hubris) on both ends of the spectrum. Unfortunately, it appears to be devolving into the age-old argument... and since the PLers don't usually care about the forums, it turns into PLer-bashing. :(
devolving...i love that word. Everyone dislikes those who don't walk the talk, to use an overused cliche. So why is that thrown out when you come into this environment? If you say you have a certain level of magic, why don't you?
Isn't it a tad hypocritical to roleplay certain levels if you don't have them? I'm sitting the fence on the topic because I think that there should be a median between hardcore roleplaying and hardcore powerleveling discovered. Or a balance, if you prefer.
those pushing the attitude of let sleeping dogs lie, why? And those in favour of one side or the other, why? let's see some legitmate reasons rather than mud-slinging...the elections are taking care of that.
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We're constantly reminded that this is only an alpha version, so I really don't see the cause for this ferocious defense of the current game mechanics. The combat system is "Do damage with twitchy animations until your opponent falls down stiffly." Sure, that's how they designed it. But if that's really as far as they're going to take the combat system... bleh. I'll happily call myself a texplayer and enjoy my own little world.
Being a valid part of the game does not make it good, or fully developed, or fun. :beta:
Granted, I have leveled my character to the stats I saw appropriate, but it took a very long time, and I would rather walk on hot coals then do it with another character. And let's not even mention the fact that he's not even close to maxing ONE of his skills. So try and see it that way, at least. If you have fun powerleveling, good for you. But I won't be beating down armies of trepors for a loooong time.
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As usual players lose sight of the thread. To suggest ways of bringing the two schools of thought together. Its not a debate about the rights and wrongs of PL & RP. And lets try to keep IC and OOC out of it. But for the record PL'ers are IC ALL the time, At least in "Main".
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The initial intent of this thread was to approach this from the perspective of cooperation. This is a good goal, but requires a little effort (read this as a bit less hubris) on both ends of the spectrum. Unfortunately, it appears to be devolving into the age-old argument... and since the PLers don't usually care about the forums, it turns into PLer-bashing. :(
People who brought suggestions to this thread mostly PL and RP at the same time, so there's no spectrum and no bashing here. Cooperation has been mentioned and is part of the solution. Yet game mechanics are another part, that cannot be dismissed. When, in the current unfinished state, a crafter or a healer spends 99% of his time bashing things to progress, he can hardly neglect that part in his RP. When everybody heals everybody, or mime, or make weapons, there's little reason to interact with chosen others; there's for example no place for a healer as a profession in PlaneShift. And because the mechanics are not there yet, it's totally opportune to debate on how to adjust them. There's still time to orient the mechanics towards a given purpose, and, for me, the 2 major purposes are characterisation and fun. There's an infinite number of ways to promote characterisation without hindering the pure PL aspect. In fact, it would probably improve it.
First, the character creation should mean something. 3 days after creation, a character hardly has anything in common with his past self, except for a name and a race. 3, 6 or 12 months later, he is just the same as the Lambda ulber-PC. The initial choices should influence the entire life of a PC. This is directly related to the inability to max everything.
Then, every step that improves RP is good for the community; setting, rules, player actions, all of it. To RP, people need a role to play, obviously. To level, one may just need the opportunity, but it also should be enjoyable. I repeat myself, but since much of what is needed is in the making (law enforcement, balance, new skills, etc.), I prefer to focus on what is already there and doesn't seem to do the job.
Btw, I'm not sure these PL purists exist; I've never met any.
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For the record, I've met a few PL-purists. However, I have not seen them be disrespectful of others or their RP. The most common response when telling them about something I'm doing is "is that some sort of RP thing?". I've tried to explain that all RP is, is just acting the way your character would, or speaking from your characters point of view. As an example, your character doesn't know anything about computers or walkie-talkies or guns. The whole concept of RP to a significant number of newcomers, reinforced by a number of forum posts i've read over the last several months, is that RP is sacred and can only be achieved through knowing all there is to know about fantasy novels and speaking with thees and thous and thys. I, and most here in this thread, know that it isn't that way. Maybe we need to help try to help explain better what RP actually is.
I have seen some immature people that simply like to annoy others... um... I can be one of those, but usually not in-game... welll in-game and OOC anyway. But I digress. Not everyone who runs around PLing uses net/1337-speak. Also, not everyone running around using net/1337-speak is PLing. I don't see it being beneficial to this discussion to lump the two together.