PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Shaman on September 21, 2008, 12:51:08 am
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Why it takes mental stamina to mine? I mean, it isn't like miners suddenly grab their head and say "I can't think anymore, this work is too hard. I need to sit down." They're hitting a rock with a mining pick, very little thinking involved. So what's the deal with that?
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yes, yes it has.
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Link oh helpful one.
the searching "mental, stamina, mining, " yields little help.
And I'm kinda interested, because this is a good question if you ask me. :D
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I think it had something to do with which chunks of rock were worth carting off to the furnace and which were only good for Kran snacks.
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What happen when you mining too long you get BORED But still mining can burn my mental stamina very fast so it's kinda .....
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So the higher the intelligence we have, the less we get bored while mining...?
No.
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The better able you are to mine efficiently.
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The faster you can tell which to give to the kran and which to keep too :)
But i agree with Prolix
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This clearly doesn't make sense!
What was too me once obvious intention with the idea implementation, is if you continue mining, you stop gettin skill gains! Not that you cannot continue mining! (this is about every activity)
Why it isn't that way have no idea ;D A bug? No time for developing that thing?
If not, my way of understanding must be completly llogical to what is currently in game xD
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This is all just guess-work. I'm looking for an official response other than "just because" that makes sense explaining WHY we're losing mental stamina to hit a pickaxe against a rock.
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then go ask officials and tell us. They probably won't respond in this topic.
Use IRC, or PM someone who has time.
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If they respond in this topic, the search feature might actually be useful when people wanna figure out what the answer is.
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I've always wondered this... Maybe it's because PS wants us to roleplay instead of mining (which would be a terrible way of promoting RP). But then how the heck do we get any tria? The only way to efficiently produce money is to mine.
Or maybe it's because no one on the dev team has ever mined before, and they don't realize that most of the people who mine aren't necessarily that intelligent. That kind of labor usually goes to the lower classes, meaning they should not have much education or have a high... mental... whatever it's called... that stat... Yeah. All the smart people are into the whole economic/political thing, or off protecting the state, while all of the mindless, unintelligent lackies are off smashing rocks.
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I've always wondered this... Maybe it's because PS wants us to roleplay instead of mining (which would be a terrible way of promoting RP). But then how the heck do we get any tria? The only way to efficiently produce money is to mine.
Or maybe it's because no one on the dev team has ever mined before, and they don't realize that most of the people who mine aren't necessarily that intelligent. That kind of labor usually goes to the lower classes, meaning they should not have much education or have a high... mental... whatever it's called... that stat... Yeah. All the smart people are into the whole economic/political thing, or off protecting the state, while all of the mindless, unintelligent lackies are off smashing rocks.
Stamina?
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after you have mined for a while, you get not only physically but mentally tired or that is what the devs want your char to do, if you have better ideas make a feature request on the tracker and someday it may get ingame.
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That's the precise answer I was hoping not to get. So basically the only reason is "just because"? That's lame.
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I look at it as how long your character can mine without getting bored. Makes sense, doesn't it?
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I look at it as how long your character can mine without getting bored. Makes sense, doesn't it?
No
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Why it takes mental stamina to mine? I mean, it isn't like miners suddenly grab their head and say "I can't think anymore, this work is too hard. I need to sit down." They're hitting a rock with a mining pick, very little thinking involved. So what's the deal with that?
My suggestion is to research on miners and what it takes to be a miner. I am pretty positive there are positions that are quite taxing on the metal state of a miner. Your physical state can leak into your metal state and affect your performance. For example perhaps over seeing other miners, making sure the jobs assigned to them get done as while as your own mining. There has to be more to mining than just mindlessly swinging a pick axe. Perhaps the enviroment can get to a miner after awhile, leaving them longing for sunshine and fresh air. Which might make them feel tired and unhappy thus affecting the mental state.
I don't know if that helps because I really know nothing when it comes to mining but good luck to you. :)
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Like I said before, that's just a guess-work answer, though. I really don't see how swinging a pickaxe, at a rock, taxes your brain more than reading big words does.
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Like I said before, that's just a guess-work answer, though. I really don't see how swinging a pickaxe, at a rock, taxes your brain more than reading big words does.
I think that is why research on your part will help. :) If you've never really mined before then it's understandable why you don't understand how it can affect you mentally. Don't discount the enviroment or where miners work. It is dusty, dark and hard work. I am sure that in it's self can be draining on a person mentally. Perhaps there is a worker that you have to work beside that can get on your nerves and drive you nuts but you have no choice but to work in the same mine. That can be taxing on your metal state.
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Mental stamina is when the character thinks they can go on no more. An increased Will will give them the mental strength they need to continue up to the point of physical collapse. Any training of the mind in fact will allow them more control over their urges.
Still not an official response but hey. If it makes sense it makes sense.
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Mental stamina is when the character thinks they can go on no more. An increased Will will give them the mental strength they need to continue up to the point of physical collapse. Any training of the mind in fact will allow them more control over their urges.
Still not an official response but hey. If it makes sense it makes sense.
Now theres a good answer! :thumbup:
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Now that makes more sense, the will to go on. The general interpretation of it (to me, anyway) is that mental stamina applies to how long you can cast spells and whatnot. If someone had just said that from the beginning a lot of confusion would've been saved. :P
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If someone had just said that from the beginning a lot of confusion would've been saved. :P
Well at least people tried to help even if it was not to your liking. Glad someone could give you the answers you wanted to hear. :woot:
:lol: @Feline Prince: That never occured to me so thanks for posting. Helps me put it into perspective.
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They say if you keep repeating a lie, you believe it.
Well, noone is lieying there, but conclussions of this topic kinda explains why the playerbase didn't really change for the last year/s.
Looking at the stats i could say it decreased ?
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my will to follow this thread is lapsing at a rate consistent with my mental stamina loss rate \\o//
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Mining is precision work, not just mindless swinging of a pick. You have to aim every hit, judge swing angle for every hit, adjust power for every hit, watch what is happening to the rock/soil you are hitting for every hit, and be aware of constant hazards. It is both taxing on the body and mind. I have never mined, but I have cut trees with an axe, which is very similar to mining in what is required of the body and mind. I get tired both physically and mentally.
So, there you have your answer. Anyone who has done hard, precision work already knows this. Common sense.
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You know, I've cut trees with an axe too, and not once have I had to sit down from thinking too hard. Your explanation pales in comparison to the one Feline gave.
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And you wondered why no one wanted to give you an answer. Learn some respect.
The 'will' to go on is WILL, not mental stamina. Mental stamina is when your mind becomes 'foggy' and you can't think straight and your judgment is impaired. I think we should remove sitting down, and have any genius who keeps swinging a pick after mental stamina is drained miss a shot and put his pick through his foot.
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That actually sounds like a good idea. Make it so mental stamina doesn't keep you from mining, but makes it riskier. Why not?
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While we're at it? Why isn't ever other feature perfectly implemented? Why, not?
Corners have been cut to be returned to later all over the place. Would you rather have a diamond hunting game with a perfect (and I mean perfect) diamond hunting system or something where you can do multiple things?
On another topic. Shaman, what part of the dev team have you applied to? If the answer is none than think twice before responding disrespectfully to Moon who has contributed more than you probably ever will.
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"Just because it does."
and ever mined in real life its physically demanding yes but itl also drive ya looney pretty fast too \\o//
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Moon's mined for nose goblins, I've seen him do it. And yup, it wore him out...
:o
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Wait, how do you get tired mentally?
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ok, I have to put in my 2 tria...
Now.. In case you have never noticed.. some people can do tedious hard work hour and after hour.. and others can not. And not alwasy because of physical reasons. Ever weed for 16 hours a day, for weeks at a stretch? I could. My brother, sister, and frankly a lot of others could not. they would pull plants....not weeds... or even worse... wander off... bored.
They would want to get paid.. but not do the work... they did not have the mental stamina to keep at it.
How about training sports... My wife today asked if, when I was training boxing, if I ever trained more than an hour... I laughed.. there were months where we would train over 4 hours a day, 7 days a week. And yes, some were harder trainers than others.
Think Michale (SP?) phelps swam how many hours a day he had to, because it was easy? Others were probably more physically fit when he started... but he had the mindset to push it and push it... more than almost anyone.
Or even me.. now.. I am supposed to be training my swordmaking.. but I wandered off after about 6 hours... Bamko could keep going, but I needed a mental break...
SEE HOW THAT WORKS?
play suduko for 20 hours straight.. bet you get mentally tired.... same thing for doing other jobs... with discipline, you can train that... IN yliakum there are even trainers who can help you with that. Intelligence to know you SHOULD be doing it, and why... WILL to have the discipline to keep at it.. and Charisma...well, that is harder.. maybe it reflects how you see yourself, which is as much, if not more, of a factor of how others see you....? If you think "this is stupid... I am better than this" you will not stick at it.. nor will people like you as much... you arrogant ......
You get my point I hope?
I wonder about things... I mean.. you guys who do not understand... you ever see someone smart enough and physically able to do a job.. who just seemed to wander off after a few minutes... usually not a lot of self discipline and seen by most as a lazy person....
how is this different? Good system.. and believable too.
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Well, after reading everything that's been said, I see how mental stamina can be drained with mining... But, I'm curious, how many other things drain it? Will, eventually, most things drain mental stamina in some way?
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Except you should run out of physical strenghts much faster than of will-to-do it. Not speaking about other activities, but mining is mainly physical work. I did cut down trees too and i know it is Physical effort. I rested not because i couldn't think straight anymore :], but because my muscles was tired and i needed to catch some breath!
AFAIK in PS it is the other way around. First you loose will to do and much much much later you would loose strenghts and even if quite trained, with high stats, you loose mental will to do after like 5 minutes :s. Is that correct?
As i said before, mental stamina would be expected to have something to do with skill learning and in case of physical activities not a factor deciding if you need to rest. For that one there is Stamina.
I don't see a reason for justifying a system, which obviously has some basic flaws.
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Probably the stamina calc for mining just needs a bit of tweaking.
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When I go jogging or hop on the treadmill I sometimes do a good 45-minute run. The hardest part is always the first five minutes. Once I get into it I don't feel more tired at minute 38 than I felt at minute 15. I think mental stamina has to do with that 5th minute barrier. Some people can't keep on and stop when they hit it, while others push through.
Perhaps the system could use a little tweaking but then I'm sure there are other much more urgent priorities.
Maybe miners get tired mentally because they are afraid the next time they swing their pick they'll make the stalactite crumble... but then, if they are anything like the human race, they won't care one bit as long as they get rich :P.
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enh, work makes you tired both physically and mentally in some cases, but ALWAYS mentally. Wouldn't you rather be doing something else?
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When you work long enough and hard enough, the wear on your body chemistry affects your mental/emotional state. You start making mistakes, not because you become less able to swing the pickaxe, but because your attentiveness decreases. Doing real, physical work, like mining or construction, does have a mental wear to it. And there is more to mining than simply swinging a pickaxe. As you tire, your perception is altered, your judgement is impaired, and your thinking is slowed.
By midafternoon, with the hundred-degree sun beating down on you, and everything covered in dirt and dust, every breath becomes a heated effort. You stumble along with your mind numbed, relying on the years of practice and reflex to keep your body going to the end of the day, repetitive motion becomes the rhythm of your life, and your thoughts contract to within the circle of your own stumbling steps. This is when mistakes happen; this is when people get hurt or killed. Not because they collapse (although that does happen), but because the mind no longer works as it should.
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Well my reasoning behind it being the mental capacity to push past the feeling of fatigue was based on the fact its improved by increasing WIll, Intellegence and Charisma. The same way physical stamina is increased by the physical stats. That and the fact you collapse.
It could well be that it is the ability to maintain attentiveness and its just that the Devs haven't implemented it properly yet.
As the current mechanics stand I think my theory makes more sense. Not that it matters a massive amount. It achieves the goal of stopping people mining forever and doing nothing else and it doesn't really hinder roleplaying either as if you do get tired and stab yourself your gonna stop digging... Unless you digging yourself away from an Ulbernaught or something... I dunno..
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Wait, how do you get tired mentally?
Someone has never done hours of math homework on end. ;)
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Wait, how do you get tired mentally?
Someone has never done hours of math homework on end. ;)
No... In fact, due to my unruly defiance to those with higher authority, I was once forced to do math problems for over 12 hours straight. Yeah, it was torture (especially when I got home and my parents were like "ZOMG U EFFIN STOOPID GURL"), but I didn't get mentally tired. Maybe it's just because I'm awesome, or a higher being, like... the new Messiah... most likely the Antichrist...
:]
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My mental stamina goes up when I mine
:P
Pretty soon, I think my phys stamina will barely be reduced at all, just need to get the final 50 points in END
And then I'll have maxed all my stats
It's not even that hard
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When you work long enough and hard enough, the wear on your body chemistry affects your mental/emotional state. You start making mistakes, not because you become less able to swing the pickaxe, but because your attentiveness decreases. Doing real, physical work, like mining or construction, does have a mental wear to it. And there is more to mining than simply swinging a pickaxe. As you tire, your perception is altered, your judgement is impaired, and your thinking is slowed.
By midafternoon, with the hundred-degree sun beating down on you, and everything covered in dirt and dust, every breath becomes a heated effort. You stumble along with your mind numbed, relying on the years of practice and reflex to keep your body going to the end of the day, repetitive motion becomes the rhythm of your life, and your thoughts contract to within the circle of your own stumbling steps. This is when mistakes happen; this is when people get hurt or killed. Not because they collapse (although that does happen), but because the mind no longer works as it should.
That's absolutely right. (Well, as long as your 100 degrees are not my 100 degrees...)
Now, to stay on the topic of game mechanics: Mental stamina doesn't really make sense for mining, as it is; but it has a purpose. What can be done to give it more sense while keeping its purpose? Yes, I do have trouble figuring this purpose myself. Frankly, the mining player is bored much faster than the character could ever be, so chatting with the neighbours should happen anyway. If someone doesn't want to chat, he can't be forced. And mining is not boring anyway; not when you like it; like any other activity. To be a miner, you shouldn't be bored by mining. And a (stereotypical) dwarf is never bored with mining.
Also, currently, you have to stop mining for a few seconds until you have enough will back. Lots of tiny breaks are odd. Dig 30 seconds, rest 15 s, dig 30 s, and so on. When you are tired, either physically or mentally, you take a proper break before starting again. And it doesn't have much to do with will. Dig 1 hour, rest 10 minutes. But the time scale in PS is not our time scale...
So now with the suggestions:
- One (passable) way is, when you reach 0, you wouldn't be able to dig until the progress bar reaches a much higher value. I need only 12-13% myself; maybe 50% or even 100% would be better.
- Another way is a much slower mental stamina drain and recovery. This considers that one has to get physically tired before his spirit would give up. As someone mentioned in an earlier post, it's not necessarily true. Taste for an activity is paramount, not the hardship of that activity.
- My choice (so far) would go more like this: Mental stamina's purpose is concentration, and its loss doesn't stop you from mining, but lowers your efficiency. In which way can again be debated, but at the end of the day it means less ore in the bag. This would also play well with the suggestions on dangerous mining (in another thread).
- Maybe mental stamina doesn't represent boredom, but morale. If so, make chatting and RPing keep mental stamina higher. Too hard to implement in my opinion, but one of you guys may find a way... (I really don't understand why none of these dwarves whistle while digging; I've got a shortcut for that.)
- Get rid of mental stamina altogether. After all, that's what the mining skill is for. Or combine the two (if it's not how it's done already). Rookies try a job, find out they don't have the spirit for it, and quit for another career path.
- Lower the gray bar not because you dig for a long time, but whenever you don't dig out anything of value. That's consistent with both concentration and morale. Raise the value when you find something, but veeery slowly otherwise.
- Allow group mining (akin to group fighting). The gray bar would stay higher for those miners. Before elaborating, I'd first ask if it is technically feasible at all.
- Give ways to get mental stamina back. No potions needed: food and beverages would do, for example. Plenty of space for elaborations and implications there.
This post is from a former miner. I don't aim at realism, as it cannot be achieved anyway. Believability does it. I see the use of several stats and skills as adding variety to a profession; this is why I think mental stamina is a plus to the game. I wouldn't mind having more percentage bars going down while I dig, as long as the big red message when 0% is reach makes sense :) , which is what this thread is about originally. (Warning: You do need to sharpen your pick, rehydrate yourself, remove the dust from your eyes, brush your teeth and run behind a rock to pull down your pants. Now!)
Maybe this mining mental issue wouldn't be if it was applied to all professions. Isn't forge work boring / demoralising / repetitive / exhausting? What happens to fighters after the adrenalin rush? Isn't spellcasting a bit tiresome, physically? (Opinions from real life professional spellcasters would be really appreciated here.)
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Honestly, if you dont like losing mental stamina, hire a brand new guy with no idea how much his ore is worth...I mean the only work I've done is being a mercenary, and I rather enjoyed that. :woot:
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The character with low mental stamina is more like the person who can not hold a job because he wanders off, or doesnt show up half the time, than the one who gets to work every day a half hour early. I expect those who are still reading this thread have high mental stamina IRL, so they might not understand what that is like, but having seen many with low mental stamina, they need a lot of distractions and breaks... and not because they are tired. Boredom is the enemy. They wont keep working if they get bored. Logic wont change their mind either. I have been Director of Leadership Development of a 33,000 member volunteer organization, Mess deck master of arms on a naval ship with 565 people (about half of my guys were being processed for discharge for this low mental stamina, or lack of self control) as well as, way back when.. The produce manager of a store with my staff consisting of Highschoolers whom I could not hire or fire. There are a lot of people who you have to keep mentally rested and yet involved, or they won't stick at it.
With PS taking a level of skill just to get installed, I am not surprised many here donot realize that. But if your character has low mental stamina, then he would wander off... or just stop. Even Dwarves. Perhaps stop for a beer? ale? red liquor? hard cider?
I would suggest either RP why he needs a break... or dedicate him to work on his mental stamina, which is easier to do Ingame than IRL.
Bamko does not need to break from crafting or mining.. but I still RP it like when he did.. and go look for something.. anything.. to distract him...