PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: zanzibar on November 07, 2008, 11:02:37 am
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I did a search for "atheism" covering the last 400 days of the forum. This topic has been discussed, but I don't think it's been discussed the way I'm going to discuss it, so I feel comfortable making this thread.
I'm approaching this topic from a place of ignorance. I don't know the plan of the settings team and I haven't been involved in the discussions about religion and the settings at that level.
I made a new character today and the description of Atheists raised some questions for me. I'm not sure I know what Atheism is anymore in the context of Planeshift, or how it's viewed.
Despite the obvious presence of Gods and Goddesses throughout Yliakum, some deny that these beings are worthy of worship.
This is the line that has me confused. In discussions, we've always distinguished between two senses of Atheist: One, someone who denies the existence of the gods. Two, someone who denies that the gods are worthy of worship. Two very different senses.
My understanding was that the consensus was that the first sense, the sense closest to the real life definition of Atheist, is absurd in Yliakum. First off, the definition of "god" may be synonymous with "infinately powerful wizard". But secondly, people in Yliakum recognize the existence of the gods because people in Yliakum recognize the existence of the gods. It's a cultural thing. An outside observer, while they might find it right or wrong, would see this if they looked at Yliakum. Everyone recognizes the existence of the gods. This is ok because of the flexible definition of "god" and because the influence of the gods is so pervasive in Yliakum society. In our own world, there was a time in Europe when pretty much everyone believed in God, and there was far less evidence.
My confusion here is because the line I quoted in bold and italics mixes the senses. "Despite the obvious... some deny that these beings are worthy of worship." This is clearly a reference to the second sense of Atheist: That sense that says that the character recognizes the gods exist, but does not see the gods as worthy of worship.
So I'm confused. In every discussion I've had up until now, we've treated the two senses of Atheist as very different things. One was always completely unacceptable, and the other was tolerable (and perhaps even relatively common). The quote I took from the character generator seems to be in exact opposition to that.
I'm hoping that someone can help me to better understand what's going on, and how I could misunderstand things so completely.
The rest of the information on Atheism:
Most people consider atheists foolish at best and a condemned object of pity at worst.
This makes sense for characters who deny the gods exist. I'm not sure how this should work for characters who don't think the gods should be worshipped. Is this another one of those cultural things, that is simply true because it is true?
Athests will bear the worst effects of the penalty for dying since no god will grant them succor from it.
This seems logical.
The atheist does not look outside itself for truth.
This confuses me. Can someone explain what the author meant by "look outside itself"? Is "itself" a typo? It should be themself. Also, why is this so prescriptive for the character's reasoning (or lack of reasoning)? Or am I reading too much into it?
People attracted to this faith: People who have had a bad experience with religion, anti-social people, staunch individualists, and the irrational.
Again, I find this highly prescriptive for the character's motivation in being an Atheist, and frankly I'm not sure where it's coming from. What's the rational basis for this part of the settings? In Yliakum, do anti-social, individualist, and irrational have the same meanings that they do in the real world? Why should these qualities be especially applied to characters who are Atheist, and applied to all characters who are Atheist? (By "Why", I mean "How does this serve the game?")
I'm hoping that this post doesn't offend anyone's work. If it seems like I'm being critical, I'm merely expressing confusion on a topic I know little about. Understanding this issue better will help me (and possibly others) become better roleplayers.
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Hi there zanzibar. I'm going to try and answer your questions to the best of my knowledge. My answers are not necessarily those of the settings team though.
Atheism in PlaneShift has caused confusion in a number of players. The main confusion arises because most do not recognise that Yliakum Atheism and Earth Atheism are two separate concepts, with their own definitions. You, however, seem to have grasped the two concepts, but bare in mind only ONE is applicable to the people of Yliakum. You should therefore read the quote you gave with that mind set. Namely that atheists in Yliakum are aware of the gods' existence, but deny that they should be worshiped. A person who does not believe the gods exist is not atheist. The gods' existence a hard "scientific" fact in Yliakum, and although culture plays a part, it's not the sole reason they believe gods exist. The equivalent in our world would be people who deny that the sun doesn't exist (a bit extreme, but you get my point).
Most people consider atheists foolish at best and a condemned object of pity at worst.
This makes sense for characters who deny the gods exist. I'm not sure how this should work for characters who don't think the gods should be worshipped. Is this another one of those cultural things, that is simply true because it is true?
It's quite simple. Atheists are considered foolish because they do not worship the gods. They are pitied because worshipers believe that the Gods will condemn the Atheists for not worshiping them.
Athests will bear the worst effects of the penalty for dying since no god will grant them succor from it.
This seems logical.
Quite.
The atheist does not look outside itself for truth.
This confuses me. Can someone explain what the author meant by "look outside itself"? Is "itself" a typo? It should be themself. Also, why is this so prescriptive for the character's reasoning (or lack of reasoning)? Or am I reading too much into it?
Nah, I think it should be "Atheists do not look outside themselves for truth." Themself is a bad word. Itself is more appropriate as it is, but it does sound a little strange I know. I think what they mean by it is that they do not justify their existence with some higher power. They believe that their answers can come from themselves.
People attracted to this faith: People who have had a bad experience with religion, anti-social people, staunch individualists, and the irrational.
Again, I find this highly prescriptive for the character's motivation in being an Atheist, and frankly I'm not sure where it's coming from. What's the rational basis for this part of the settings? In Yliakum, do anti-social, individualist, and irrational have the same meanings that they do in the real world? Why should these qualities be especially applied to characters who are Atheist, and applied to all characters who are Atheist? (By "Why", I mean "How does this serve the game?")
I think these need to be seen as examples of types of people, and not seen as exclusive types. There are so many reasons why a person in Yliakum would be Atheist, these examples are provided to give ideas to new players for their characters. I think so anyway.
I hope I interpreted your question correctly and that my answer provides a little clarity,
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I'm not sure why my post was deleted. All I said was that "itself" is incorect because it is used to refer to objects, whereas "themself" is used to refer to people. But you are correct, it is plural, and so should be themselves, however I don't see why "itself" should be used because we are talking about people, not chairs. I'm not sure about other langauges, but in English, it is very bad to refer to a person as an "it". It implies that you do not think that person is a person! :D
Thank you for your answer, it is very informative. I will be posting an alternative wording later today that is less problematic than what is in game currently but keeps in mind what you have said. Ulysses is the model!
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As far as I know, the Klyros race was almost destroyed by Laanx when arriving in Yliakum, so I would expect settings-wise for them not to trust deities very much.
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As far as I know, the Klyros race was almost destroyed by Laanx when arriving in Yliakum, so I would expect settings-wise for them not to trust deities very much.
We are just distrustful of Laanx.
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Atheist is a misleading term as it implies that others are theists while in fact they are monolatrists, people that accept the existance of a few gods but only believe one to be worthy of worship. While atheism explicitly means someone who has an absence of belief in the existence of any god, perhaps a better term would be irreligous monolatrists. Slightly cumbersome, but why say apple when you're talking about an orange?
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It's confusing at times. All the gods are seen as worthy of worship. But once you start worshiping one god, you stop seeing any other god as worthy of worship. But not worshiping any god at all is seen as far worse than worshiping the wrong god.
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Why not worship all the gods?
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The description may just be an IG perspective, this is how the other characters would view your character if they found out about their supposed "atheism".
My main is an "atheist" by mechanics but she believes the god's exist. She is aware of the danger that follow allying yourself with one and making them angry so she takes the "neither a borrower nor lender be" approach. She doesn't ask anything of them, they ask nothing of her and she finds her way to steer very clear of their issues mostly.
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Why not worship all the gods?
As far as I know, this goes against the settings. Everything I've seen and read suggests that you're expected to choose a god and worship it. Further, the worshipers of different gods aren't always friendly to one another. And I haven't found any NPC in game that worships multiple gods, or all the gods.
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I hadn;t really thought about my Kyros' religion, but I chose Laanx in creation because it seemed like the most neutral one. I don't see how atheist characters are really feasible since the average lifespan of characters is anywhere from several hours to a day before a visit to the DR. This also means that a Dark Way mage, needing to frequently visit the death realm at low-mid levels, is required to worship a god, which I don't really like.
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The average lifespan of characters that put themselves into danger is about that, but the average person would proabably live for years and years without dieing. Kind of like real life.
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Good discussion, actually helped me a bit on why I'm an atheist in game and whatever you want to call it in RL. The Klyros migration in the History kinda sums it up nicely, they are more "indifferent" to gods, not distrustful or hateful towards them. I'd say they are a good example of what Atheism is (though maybe they have their own god where they come from, may have missed that part?). For example, a small bug on the ground may see a Klyros as a god because with one foot, they can end their life, or they can provide the bug with food and shelter, and make the rest of their life comfortable. But all they are is just another species, not gods. So gods can be seen the same way, just a different type of species that is as interesting as a small bug (which isn't a put down, just that their existence is as important as any other creature in the universe), but they do not warrant to be worshipped just because they can end or give life, or do whatever they want at their discretion. Atheism maybe can be seen as just another way of questioning the concept of worshipping something that is conceived as being greater than you. A false implication to that is that Atheists have no morals or their morals are actually evil in nature. I think that is competely false, as they can actually have higher morals, especially if you are using Talad and Laanx as moral structures... bunch of spiteful, prima donnas if you ask me. And if they spite me and erase my existence, it just enforces my case. :D
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If worshipping a god is going to be required to come back from death (and think of the RP implications, you might actually have to stop and type out the prayer to laanx 5 times every PS day...) I would just like to see a god that is less 'pagan' then the ones we have now
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Less pagan??? You want the Chewlam god in PS?
Christian + Jewish + Islam
LOL, I fell asleep while typing last night...
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If worshipping a god is going to be required to come back from death (and think of the RP implications, you might actually have to stop and type out the prayer to laanx 5 times every PS day...) I would just like to see a god that is less 'pagan' then the ones we have now
Do you mean more Christian? Talad and Laanx are very like Yahweh when combined. Laanx seems to suggest the more stoic duties of Christianity such as active participation in civic duties as well as the cruelty of the old testement god while Talad seems to show the new testement's live and let live Epicurean way of life rather well. Its a typical Appolonian and Dionysian split as we see throughout most world religions, modern fiction and ancient mythology.
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If worshipping a god is going to be required to come back from death (and think of the RP implications, you might actually have to stop and type out the prayer to laanx 5 times every PS day...) I would just like to see a god that is less 'pagan' then the ones we have now
Do you mean more Christian? Talad and Laanx are very like Yahweh when combined. Laanx seems to suggest the more stoic duties of Christianity such as active participation in civic duties as well as the cruelty of the old testement god while Talad seems to show the new testement's live and let live Epicurean way of life rather well. Its a typical Appolonian and Dionysian split as we see throughout most world religions, modern fiction and ancient mythology.
If that's true for Talad, it's not true for follower's of Talad based on my experiences with the NPCs.
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Coneitic was an athiest for the longest time... tell he started to revolt with duraza in the plaza and Laanx spoke to us.
/thread
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Coneitic was an athiest for the longest time... tell he started to revolt with duraza in the plaza and Laanx spoke to us.
/thread
Uh, what? I thought that was against the rules. Laanx entered the game and spoke to ME too during the Octarch affair, but then I was told it never happened and to erase it from my character's RP memory.
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Maybe in both cases it was some other powerful being pretending to be Laanx, how would a mere mortal know the difference?
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We weren't given the option of interpreting it for ourselves. We were told that it was a mistake, and it never happened as far as our characters are concerned.
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The occasions where Laanx spoke were ill-concieved, unauthorised and should be considered ooc, the GM involved was reprimanded so please dont use as an example of valid rp
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Coneitic was an athiest for the longest time... tell he started to revolt with duraza in the plaza and Laanx spoke to us.
/thread
Yes, /thread. That answers all the questions people may have about the metaphysics of the world of PS. ???
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If the complete settings information is possible to discover from an in character point of view could there not be a belief posited that the gods are not separate entities but rather aspects taken on by Vodul for reasons unknowable by mortals or is his part of the creation story unknown to the inhabitants? Certainly such a belief could be seen as a form of atheism in context.
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If the complete settings information is possible to discover from an in character point of view could there not be a belief posited that the gods are not separate entities but rather aspects taken on by Vodul for reasons unknowable by mortals or is his part of the creation story unknown to the inhabitants? Certainly such a belief could be seen as a form of atheism in context.
Wouldn't Yliakum society treat such an individual as a pitiful lunatic, the same way Atheists are seen in game as per the current info in the character generator?
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I am fairly sure Vodúl is unknown to most if not all characters.
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The point I was making is it is possible to question just about anything despite what appear to be incontrovertible facts.
Unless people are forced to wear their faith on their sleeve it is possible to believe anything you want and get along in society. If I believed that vodul was all there was I would be treated like a lunatic only as much as I tried to insist on my beliefs. If I only mentioned it casually as a possibility to others not fanatical in their beliefs I could be put down as a harmless eccentric. If I tried to convert Sharven it would be a much different story. Everything is relative.
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Reading this (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29670.msg391749#msg391749) started to make me think that there can be a type of atheist who professes a belief in one god or other and that only for whatever they can get out of the deal. From what I can tell in the game it is largely similar to life in that it is mostly a one way proposition. You worship the god and the god ignores you completely. The only caveat to this in the game is that at some point Dakkru's curse will supposedly be ameliorated at a rate consistent with your belief. That is not to say that there are no benefits that derive strictly from joining the god's earthly organization. So such an atheist as I suggest would join the religion for the contacts that can be made and profess belief only as profusely as needed to manipulate their intended listener. Whatever they actually believe need never be exposed to the light of day. I would call this your pragmatic atheist.
guided by practical experience and observation rather than theory; "a hardheaded appraisal of our position"; "a hard-nosed labor leader"; "completely practical in his approach to business"; "not ideology but pragmatic politics
Now this might not be possible if the gods played a more active role in the game, such as by some form of magic only available to the truly faithful although this would likely be impossible to code. It would require god-like insight into the motivations of the character. Of course a god might be unconcerned with mortal motivations and reward those mortals who are, for whatever reason, useful to them.
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I made a thread that was based on this discussion. A moderator felt I was pointing out an inconsistency, so he moved my thread to The Great Inconsistency Hunt. You can read the post here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29670.msg391749#msg391749).
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That was the same post I linked but I felt my reply belonged here more than in the official "inconsistency" thread as my points were not germane to settings inconsistencies but rather to character perspective. I did not want to clutter up that other thread and my comments did kind of follow those made previously in this thread.
The point is that it is not always possible to determine a characters real motivation without divine guidance and that possibly there should be some kind of religious magic apart from the traditional magic of Ways in order to distinguish between true faith and pragmatic atheism.