PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: explorer on April 24, 2003, 10:17:14 am
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Will there be and in game compass? I realize that its a cone-shape area, so giving it a logical explanation for how it works might be hard. But I think it will make traveling to cities easier. What are other peoples view on this?
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A compass or some sort of map (I\'m thinking something like the automap feature from Doom) would be very handy.
Moraudin
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I\'d say just a compass a map takes the fun out of exploring cause it has all the right paths on it
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How about only having a compass, and then you draw your own maps ? :P
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Then we can sell them at ridculously over priced prices to the bums in the game who are to lazy to figure out the meaning of the word explore :D
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Compass works for me, then we could give them directions. I\'d love to see them: \"Where\'s the big tree? And how to do go 20degrees north? Muhuahahah. Maps arnt on the top of my list, I think orienteering(sp?) would be mroe fun.
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I would still like to be able to make maps for ps it could work you could ingame buy a blank piece of paper and to draw a map you\'d make it so whereever you walked it would draw a line and the surrounding features and the colour of the line would change accordingly to what you were walking on eg country side, path, city road
anad then when you are finsihed you add in special little notes on the map then if you got a nother piece of paper you could copy the map across till you have the amount you want and sell them to people
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compass and do your own map sounds best ;)
but drawing your own map could be painstaking ...but these would sell pretty good. the other problem about the maps is how to actually make PS let you draw maps (if you get my point) - exactly how you would draw maps in PS
if there would be non-obligatory self-made sellable maps, it wouldn\'t take the fun out of exporing. ...but if there\'s not good option how to make maps in PS, then better no maps then auto-map (it doesn\'t fit in a frp like PS)
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to make it work you (ingame) you buy a blank piece of paper and the blank piece of paper could have various options
Draw Map
Misc Write
Copy another work
etc....
if you select the draw map option the paper shrinks in size and goes in the right hand corner of the screen
then where ever you walk it draws a line and the colour of the line changes colour according to what you are walking on eg
grass
dirt track
city road
bush bashing
etc.......
The game could also why you are walking add little things to the map numbers that tell you how hi or low you are on the ground
and then when you have finished the map you can add little notes all over it like name of the path, names of citys pictures of little trees to signify a forest or a picture of a village to signify village etc
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that\'s exactly what i would like to avoid - that\'s too easy. as less maps there are the better the gaming experience based on exploration IMO.
the way how you draw maps would have to be hard and there would have to be good and bad maps.
my idea:
you walk around, and when you find a spot you think is importaint you mark it on the paper/parchement/wooden piece/whatever whan you\'re on that spot. later you can draw by hand the details and add comments. this way a good map would require quite some work, and it would be the most realistic to the true map-maping IMHO.
also if this kind of map-making was added soon, there would be quite some work for curent players :)
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Just give me the compass, then for maps if there\'s books, you can write down the directions in the book. 54 degees north till you reach the cavern, head east etc.
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Yeah, a compass and map making skill would be way useful.
I\'d think it would be worth a lot of skill points though.
That way you could sell maps to merchants.
Like if you\'ve been to a far off land and have a map of it.
Then it would be worth a lot more to merchants.
Also there should be a bit of a speed penalty for setting yourself into map making mode.
But it would still be way useful in a dungeon.
You will need materials to create a map or copy one.
Plus if you copy it there will be a skill time involved.
So the better you are at making maps then the faster you can run while creating them and the faster you can copy them. :))
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hmmm... how\'s this for an idea:
Some sort of central authority that can give out an official seal of approval for self-made maps. That way people buying these maps could ensure themselves that when the map says \"X marks the gold\" it doesn\'t mean \"X actually marks a family of really pissed of dragons\" ;)
Expanding on this idea, maybe you could even have two different types of seals: one for veracity (gold means gold, dragons means dragons) and one for completeness (the entire dungeon/whatever has been explored and mapped out).
Of course since this could be considered a cheat, each of these seals would have to come at a fairly steep price to the map maker which he/she in turn would charge the people buying the map so that there\'d be more \"unsanctioned\" maps in circulation (every time you buy one of those you could be taking a risk).
There are other ways of making sanctioned maps yet more valuable: if there\'s only one place (e.g. Great Library ala AD&D\'s Candlekeep) in the world where you can get the map verified, you\'d have to incur travel costs to get there; distribution of the seals could be limited to a certain time period and even then they could be limited in numbers; you could submit a map for verification and get it back with an official \"we don\'t know about this area either\"-seal ...
So what do you all think about my ideas?
Moraudin
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i don\'t know ...maybe \"official\" maps for main territory, ways and cities - you know, like you can get those tourist maps IRL, that you could copy from a map you would find in a library, which could not be stolen (you would need map-skill for that - about the detail and quality the same rules would apply as for making maps - read last paragraph)
but other maps, that you can buy everywhere (especially from a map-maker) that would be pretty realistic, and would probably increase the fun ;)
the auto-map that would slow you down, even hinder your actions to only walking - no fighting, no talking, no gathering or ussing objects, since that would deconcentrate you - you could do (some of) these actions along with mapping if you would have a higher concentration (or whatever equals this in PS) could be an option, but i dunno, that way you would only have incomplete maps, not actually badly drawn or fake or differenty detailed maps.
these problems could be solved with different levels of map-making skill: with a higher level you would have more detail added (at fist only main places (plaza, temple in the city), later even floor territory, other locations, ...), wider area mapped around you, you could add notes and later even your own drawings/objects/monsters/... to it, ...
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I dont like the ideas of maps too much, after a while, everybody would have maps through the mazes etc. If there were maps, I\'d like to see them only being able to be seen my that player/guild members. A compass is enough for me. \"Go west from Cheese vill, to reach Schnauzer Vill, follow the west road\" Thats all I think a person would need.
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Originally posted by explorer
I dont like the ideas of maps too much, after a while, everybody would have maps through the mazes etc. If there were maps, I\'d like to see them only being able to be seen my that player/guild members. A compass is enough for me. \"Go west from Cheese vill, to reach Schnauzer Vill, follow the west road\" Thats all I think a person would need.
i\'m having thoughts about that too, that\'s why my idea is either adopt yours, or let\'s make it REALLY hard to draw (good) maps
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Defently I\'d say the less skilled you are the slower you have to walk to create a map.
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Originally posted by Lorune
Defently I\'d say the less skilled you are the slower you have to walk to create a map.
i\'d go even farther: less skilled you are you get less detail out of it. plus the slowness of doing it would have to be so unbarable that most people would stop it, and only the _very_ persisten ones would stay at map-making - those that really enjoy doing it and would be later on rewarded by making maps faster (but still not as fast as normal walk!!!)
yet still, i have some dounts about it :[
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who here remebers the mapping system from NWN? where the towns are mapped, but you have to explore any territory that might be potentially hostile. I do like the idea of mapping things out manually though, so perhaps just maps of the towns you could buy, and from there you\'re on your own...
Jessyn
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Originally posted by Jessyn
who here remebers the mapping system from NWN? where the towns are mapped, but you have to explore any territory that might be potentially hostile. I do like the idea of mapping things out manually though, so perhaps just maps of the towns you could buy, and from there you\'re on your own...
that\'s what i would avoid - that\'s the automap i was talking above :(
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What would prevent people from making completely bogus maps and selling them? or would that just be part of it all...?
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Heh, i\'d definatly sell bogus maps. :P
But what my biggest worry is that all the secret areas would soon be avaliable to everybody becuase of the maps. :(
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I think speed and detail are good ways of limiting the map skill and a good way encourage skill advancement.
So that first level map maker would be slow and very low detailed but, a Master Mapper would make quick detailed maps.
So the maps would be useful at a low level and could really save your rear in a dungeon, where getting lost is easy.
But they wouldn\'t be much more than some lines with a northern orintation and resale value would be almost non-existant. :D
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ok, let\'s look at the auto-map first:
pro:
- it\'s probably easier to implement
contra:
- it can\'t be bogus (which IMO would be a must-have!)
- it\'s to easy to make a map, the skill would be limited only to walking
now for the drawing it yourself idea:
pro:
- you can have bogus maps
- you really need time to make a good map
- you would have (and be able to) add things to the map
- you could copy maps you find in libraries, you get lent etc. and later add your own detail to them
contra:
- maybe harder to implement ...then again, all you would need is to press a key to add your current position to the map, later you\'d finish it by yourself (the harder bit)
...there\'re more pros and cons, just add them yourselves, that would probably be the best way to find out which option is the best
p.s. i\'m still for the \"draw it yourself stupid\" idea
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If their going to put in a map, it would be twice as cool if anybody could do it, but you\'d have to draw it yourself. Kinda using a program like paint thats into the game. It would be like a minimap, but you\'d have to draw where your going.
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Originally posted by explorer
If their going to put in a map, it would be twice as cool if anybody could do it, but you\'d have to draw it yourself. Kinda using a program like paint thats into the game. It would be like a minimap, but you\'d have to draw where your going.
yea, that\'s basicly the idea :) a few more features then paint, but yea
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I hope your talking about a skill based automapping feature.
Limited to your PC\'s position as you move. ?(
If your talking about an ingame paint program to do maps.
Then hell I could just load pcpaint or photoshop to do that. :]
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Yep, thats what I\'m thinking. Basicly paint with a thing that lets you measure the distances between things, and as you level they get more specific. I\'m not for maps, but if people want them, I\'d like to make it hard, and hand done.
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I vote for skill+experience+\'Seal\'s
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Originally posted by explorer
Yep, thats what I\'m thinking. Basicly paint with a thing that lets you measure the distances between things, and as you level they get more specific. I\'m not for maps, but if people want them, I\'d like to make it hard, and hand done.
i\'d go for that yea :] ...maybe with great map skill the position saving would occur automatically at some more importaint poits as crossroads, cities... but mainly you\'d have to do it by hand :]
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Why even call it a skill if your the one drawing the map.
Heck just provide a sketch pad and forget a mapping skill at that point. ?(
I think you could sufficiently limit an auto-mapping skill by range, detail and time penalty, to make it work without ruining game play.
Yet, it would still be a useful enough skill to players to warrent it\'s use.
I could take or leave copying of maps.
But it seems that a the ability to copy maps is some thing a real map maker would do.
So it seems silly to leave it out.
Once again Detail and Time would be a factor in the copying process.
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That sounds kinda ok. As you level with your paint skills, you\'d get more icons (dragon, RR, water etc), and the ability to copy maps...
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I vote for skill+experience+\'Seal\'s
I voting for this one
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I think a proper item for this would be a quadrant (a.k.a. atrolabe)
it would only work on the \"surface\", and would only show elevation angle (a.k.a. declination) of the Big Shining Crystal (that according to the Legend is what we have instead of the sun in alywhateveryoucalltheworldinplaneshift). It would not help with asymuth at all.
it would be sufficiently medieval
it would not require magic, as in it would have a sensible explanation behind it\'s functionality.
a reasonably correct map could be a separate item, which shows the city divided in concentric circles - corresponding to certain step in the elevation angle.
so, in the end all you get is which of the concentric bands you\'re in, when it\'s day and you\'re on the surface - helps reasonably, but not too much - doesn\'t remove exploring fun bit.
Sometime later in the game one might be able to train a dog (or a pig or a dragon or whatever-magical-animal) to guide the player to known locations. It would work like this: you get yourself to some place and tell your \"dog\" how you call it, you do so for some number of places - there could be an artificial limit, then when you are somewhere the dog knows you can \"ask\" it to guide you to another known place.
It would be helpful because you don\'t need to stare at the screen while you\'re being walked to a location you\'ve been to hundred times already, and it would look natural too :)
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I like that idea better than maps, an animal that you teach to go a certain way, then that animal would go that way, everytime asked to.
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How about if we just do it like normal people and do an automap system like morrowind...
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Originally posted by Jalix Amundus
How about if we just do it like normal people and do an automap system like morrowind...
i dunno ...i don\'t like that auto-map sissy stuff :P
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I am not for auto-mappiong either but.....
********** An arguement for automapping************
If it is decided to implement it, one method of difficulty would be to only have it list what is in a certain area / dungeon.
IE, if I find the BIG GLOWING GREEN SWORD OF SNAKE VENOM in a cave in the right hand passage four junctions on the left and two levels down, why not just have a map goto the dungeon door and say, inside lies death on wings and a sword of green light.
It would be general enough to spark the interest of people, yet vague enough not to tell exactly where or what is in there.
**********An arguement against automapping***********
ONE thing to remember though is that in ANY game system, OR EVEN REAL LIFE, cartographers were the explorers who went out and made the maps. When they came back to their respective countries, they were either ordered to give their maps to the reigning king, or they kept a tight lid on their maps jealously guarding their masterpieces. If I were one of these said cartographers, I would never let my work out of my sight, not even a copy of it. This would make my services as a guide more valuable, and my maps more respected.
Just my two rubies...
Dolch
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I think discussing about this creating map is useless.
First, although it is written on http://www.planeshift.it (I can\'t find the page...) that we mustn\'t create a site where quests and so are listed, but do you really believe that everyone will respect this ? I don\'t. And even though the idea of creating your own maps seems fun, it will be a waste of time once you know you can have a detailed maps on another site, just by printing it. I don\'t wanna look pessimistic, just realistic : this happened il all other RPGs, it will happen in Planeshift.
Second, this skill would allow anyone to create personnal maps, which means there would be THOUSANDS of maps spreading everywhere. And reasonably we cannot but think the server will suffer from this.
Third, the advantages of such a mapping wouldn\'t be cost effective enough : detailed maps would rapidly spread and would become readily available at a low price.
Forth, making maps would be VERY long : can you realise how huge a whole world is ? Only hardcore gamers could REALY use this ability. And guess what ? Those hardcore gamers are already the ones who create sites listing quests and with printable maps...
Let\'s sum all this up :
- A sloooooow skill, that would only be useful to big players who already did mapping without this new tool (which is useless for them)
- A VERY complicated thing to program...
The conclusion comes naturally : although it looks fun, this creating map skill must reasonably not be put in.
Then the only reasonable solution is :
- a basic region mini map with main paths, lakes, forests and towns (but no details, and your location not shown)
- buyable compasses, more or less accurate (why not 2 kinds of compasses : ont that indicates north, and one that indicates the direction of the crystal)
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Originally posted by Gronomist
How about only having a compass, and then you draw your own maps ? :P
I completly agree with that, I also read another thread about a compass and I just think a simple horizontal one will be enough! It would be an item we could buy, and once in our inventory we could toggle on/off the on-screen direction pointer! There\'s no need to think about magnetic or such, this is fantasy we just have to choose a arbitrary point as being the north and an easy story about why and how the compass works can be easily made up!
About maps i\'m not much into in-game maps, we should map the world in our head or write it down on paper in RL, i\'m always taking notes when I\'m playing RPGs :P
I know it has been a long time since the last post, but hey I\'m new here and I wanted to say something about this too!
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Originally posted by Moraudin
A compass or some sort of map (I\'m thinking something like the automap feature from Doom) would be very handy.
Moraudin
Something similar would be extremely useful, especially because PS is growing rapidly, and unless one plays daily then it will be impossible to remember your way around.
I don\'t know about you guys but I have a busy life and I don\'t always find myself on to remember my way around....
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Auto map???
The map is made on real life paper, not in game paper. Then it is drawn as a graphic on you favorite drawing program and emailed to your guild. I am sure guilds like the Arcane Order have already done this.
An in game compass would be nice, but the Devs might not want such a thing considering lore of the PS world.
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So, I guess this is the most recent thread about compasses that hasn\'t been locked by that editor with the black pussy.
I understand the \"game physics\" argument for not having a compass. Fine. then don\'t have all the NPCs in town tell you that the tavern is to the \"West of the main road\".
Pick a consistent story on this, and stick with it, please, but don\'t deny players a tool that the scripters seems to assume that we have. It gives a dreadful first impression.
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Ahahah, hi :D
If you know where the main road is, and you know where the tavern is, figuring out where \"west\" is becomes a piece of cake. Is this really a bother for you? I think it adds a sense of immersion in the world.
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There is nothing wrong telling that something is in \"west\". Words like \"west\", \"east\", \"north\" and \"south\" existed way before the first compass was invented and people used different methods like sun and stars to figure out where they were. The same is valid in Yliakum and people have simply agreed where \"west\" is.
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Hello,
I don\'t think is is a problem, there is the north gate(duh) mostly the gate at the north, if you come from there over the square is the Library, its on ... south. If you don\'t spend a lot of time in planeshift direction is the least of your problems ;) About the maps, i think if you have maps everyone wants the trainers and merchants mapped in is also, i don\'t think its a good idea. Even in the sewer a compass or map has no use.
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Originally posted by Bereror
There is nothing wrong telling that something is in \"west\". Words like \"west\", \"east\", \"north\" and \"south\" existed way before the first compass was invented and people used different methods like sun and stars to figure out where they were. The same is valid in Yliakum and people have simply agreed where \"west\" is.
Except we\'re underground, and there\'s a giant crystal lodged up in the center of the ceiling lol. I agree that once you realize where the main gate is, and place that in relation to the tavern in Hydlaa, you can figure out what direction your\'e facing...within the city....but realistically, I see no problems with having SOME kinda direction finder, whether it\'s a spell or a skill or whatnot. Because when you\'re way out deep in the bush, after getting all turned around fighting a group of beasties...you\'re going to be disoriented, and if you don\'t have any clear landmarks...that, good folks...is what we call in good ole tabletop terms \"hopelessly lost\" If there\'s a river or something of that nature to follow...then it\'s just lost hehe. And as large as planescape -will- be, I can\'t help but think there needs to be some way to tell the general direction. Heck...I can recount sometimes in an MMO where I was deep in some dense foggy forest at night and WITH a compass...I still got my arse good and lost >_<
I personally think that maps and/or cartography are a bad idea, unless you grab some graph paper and do it yourself in the tride and true fashion of tabletop RP. However, very general and vague maps done up by the officials might be okay.
*edit* PlaneSHIFT not scape >_< sorry, slip of the tongue -.-
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There will be maps and compasses and all that good stuff :3 Just not yet - mainly because the world really isn\'t large enough to require that right now (so the team can concentrate on things that are needed more).
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NO MAPS imo.
Let\'s see to this: Do we want an unspoiled world with its secrets or simply a game like everyone else. As i\'ve played games like EvE-online, Rubies of Eventide or Runescape, maps have always been present! Let\'s say it like this. The first hours you go explore, but when you simply know where you\'re going the feeling of exploring is simply lost. Maps shouldn\'t be sold to newbies OR oldies! that will ruin their gaming experience. If we want a serious game with unknown places and adventures to the individual, don\'t create maps which is given out to the masses.
If individual maps were an option i\'d be glad to follow it, but so isn\'t the case, my case. If individual maps are implemented players will most surely post or sell their completed maps on some homesite and there will be scams, spoilers and all sorts of curses. This i\'ve seen in Rubies of Eventide. I love the game, yet the gaming experience isn\'t as great as PS, though you ARE able to make individual maps, the maps they post on their forums[same idea as you posted earlier about selfexploration maps] spoil the exploration and gaming experience, making it a poorer game.
Therefore!I think the compass idea is great, but leave it to the other games to work along the old path. Maps are good but exploration and new experiences when walking the path is even better!