PlaneShift
Support => Forum and Website Discussions => Topic started by: zanzibar on December 07, 2008, 03:23:04 am
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Someone made a wish, then this was posted in reply...
make a feature request on the bug tracker if you really want this ingame ;)
If the wish list doesn't get used / is in the way / is less efficient than the bug tracker, maybe we should get rid of the wish list forum?
It would be pretty easy to do and we wouldn't have to delete anything. Just make it so only devs have permission to post there, then make a thread with the title "Do you have a request for a feature? Read this first." and that thread would be a manual on the bug tracker. I don't use the bug tracker myself so I don't know how long the manual would have to be, but it seems to be the most convenient way of doing things from what people say.
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My humble opinion is to keep it around, and here's my flame-able reason:
The wish list forum is for wishes of implementation. The BUG TRACKER (BUGs, mind you!) is for tracking BUGS or GLITCHES and ERRORS in the game. IF it is in fact true that the bug tracker is for whatever little desire that pops into your head, then sure, knock off the wish list forum.
If it's not, then don't direct us to the bug tracker for everything regarding the game.
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Yep, I agree. Everything gets directed to the "bug" tracker, making the Wish List forum pointless.
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If you created a new category on the bug tracker (call it "wish" or something) then they would stay separate from the bugs.
This would also help make sure that people don't make suggestions until they've been around for a while. Too often, we get new people who come in and say a bunch of stuff without becoming a part of the community first. It would also mean that suggestions come from people with more technical skill, so they aren't just people who like playing games, they're people who know more about the details and behind-the-scenes stuff.
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The wish list is useful for kicking around ideas that are only partly formed and for settings related ideas that might easily be adopted. You certainly can use the bug tracker for feature requests but ideaswhich are poorly thought out or presented are likely to be completely ignored. Often feature requests take some time to even be marked as new which is seemingly automatic for the category, they do not need to be confirmed the way bug reports do.
If you notice not all the wish list threads get directed to the bug tracker as feature requests and here is my interpretation of why: If one of the developers who actually frequents the forum see something that is relatively new and seems viable they will make a comment to post it on the tracker. That doesn't mean other ideas are particularly bad or this idea is guaranteed to go anywhere, it just means that at the time it struck them as fresh and reasonable.
Now as the news of the day says if you do not use the tracker you have no right to complain, it would be good if more people actually learned how to use the tracker, it is not difficult. At the same time if you are too timid to use it, posting in the wish list sometimes results in someone like me posting your idea on the tracker. This would not seem to be too optimal for you as I will likely write it in a way that suits me, but then I also usually link the wish list thread to what I post so your view will not be completely lost.
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So if you have an idea that you believe in, why not just post it on the bug tracker and skip the wish list bit?
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To see if it truly is a worthwhile idea. For example: I think that kran being rock creatures ought to be able to walk through the ground like other races walk through water.
If I post such an idea on the tracker I am wasting the developer's (lanorel or caarie, most likely) time, it is never going to happen. If I post it to the wish list then half a dozen people will shoot it down, possibly one or two developers, and it does not clutter up the tracker database. Also it might trigger an unrelated thought in someone else that might be viable. As well the feedback I get might make me refine my idea to something more viable such as, perhaps: there should be a brown way spell that allows people to pass through solid stone with kran passing easier due to their rock-like nature. It may not get implemented any more than the previous version would but it is somewhat more realistic a request.
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There is value in discussion on many ideas. Particularly if they might need fleshing out, or if you want encourage brainstorming. A discussion forum is better suited to that than a bug tracker.
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I think you should post your wish on the wish list forum first. This because 99% of the wishes are incredibly complicated features that are actually games on their own. If anything good is found, it can be put on the Bug Tracker, because it's more official and dev-accessible there. And yes, bugtrackers are also used for feature requests. Everyone does that, we're not weird in that aspect.
Some feature requests go to the tracker immediately, because they're smaller and Just Make Sense (most wishes don't).
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Finally someone responded to my question from here: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=34228.msg393782#msg393782
Thank you.
However, I think we have to rely on the devs' judgement about the difficulty of implementation. It would be nice if they could tell us when a feature request has been discussed enough or is simple enough to post it on bugtracker. In the past something similar once happened when someone already posted it on bugtracker while we still were discussing it here. It seems some synchronisation would not be that bad.
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To see if it truly is a worthwhile idea. For example: I think that kran being rock creatures ought to be able to walk through the ground like other races walk through water.
If I post such an idea on the tracker I am wasting the developer's (lanorel or caarie, most likely) time, it is never going to happen. If I post it to the wish list then half a dozen people will shoot it down, possibly one or two developers, and it does not clutter up the tracker database. Also it might trigger an unrelated thought in someone else that might be viable. As well the feedback I get might make me refine my idea to something more viable such as, perhaps: there should be a brown way spell that allows people to pass through solid stone with kran passing easier due to their rock-like nature. It may not get implemented any more than the previous version would but it is somewhat more realistic a request.
And yet, people get pushed to the bugtracker. It's right there, as plain as day. Consistency would be nice. ;)
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So would a little common sense.
I re-iterate: If you notice not all the wish list threads get directed to the bug tracker as feature requests and here is my interpretation of why: If one of the developers who actually frequents the forum see something that is relatively new and seems viable they will make a comment to post it on the tracker. That doesn't mean other ideas are particularly bad or this idea is guaranteed to go anywhere, it just means that at the time it struck them as fresh and reasonable.
Also notice that some ideas essentially get talked about in multiple threads over the years yet never make it to the bug tracker. This is another instance where you might get the "post it to the tracker" admonition.
Personally I do not get upset if a developer says to post an idea on the tracker, nor should anyone else, I think.
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Not upset. Just looking for ways to make it easier for people to contribute.
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It's easy. Got an idea you want to discuss? Use the wish list. Then if a dev suggests to make a feature request, that means your material is good enough as it is. If you think your idea is good enough from the start, go straight to the bugtracker.
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So would a little common sense.
Wow... just... wow. That seems over the line.
Personally I do not get upset if a developer says to post an idea on the tracker, nor should anyone else, I think.
It's not a matter of becoming upset. It's a matter of the discussion still taking place and ideas still being bounced around. Is that too early for the bug tracker?
Honestly, it does seem like a post is made, a few people get in on it, and before you can say shazam - 'please post on bugtracker'.
The response does seem sensible, other than the 'common sense' bit, but in practice it doesn't seem functional.
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As has been indicated, the ability to get a basic review on an idea by posting it to the forum first is a benefit. If a dev thinks something is worthwhile, they might respond with "post it to the tracker". If it has been posted before, someone will say so, hopefully add a link to the original thread, et cetera. Is it just me, or do other people see absolutely nothing wrong with this approach and are also doubtful that this really warrants a thread?
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As has been indicated, the ability to get a basic review on an idea by posting it to the forum first is a benefit. If a dev thinks something is worthwhile, they might respond with "post it to the tracker". If it has been posted before, someone will say so, hopefully add a link to the original thread, et cetera. Is it just me, or do other people see absolutely nothing wrong with this approach and are also doubtful that this really warrants a thread?
Where do you have this procedure from? The devs seem not to agree with you here.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=34228.msg392933#msg392933
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=34228.msg392958#msg392958
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As has been indicated, the ability to get a basic review on an idea by posting it to the forum first is a benefit. If a dev thinks something is worthwhile, they might respond with "post it to the tracker". If it has been posted before, someone will say so, hopefully add a link to the original thread, et cetera. Is it just me, or do other people see absolutely nothing wrong with this approach and are also doubtful that this really warrants a thread?
Where do you have this procedure from? The devs seem not to agree with you here.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=34228.msg392933#msg392933
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=34228.msg392958#msg392958
I don't see what you mean. Caarrie was simply saying that there's no official procedure of discussing things on the forum.
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As has been indicated, the ability to get a basic review on an idea by posting it to the forum first is a benefit. If a dev thinks something is worthwhile, they might respond with "post it to the tracker". If it has been posted before, someone will say so, hopefully add a link to the original thread, et cetera. Is it just me, or do other people see absolutely nothing wrong with this approach and are also doubtful that this really warrants a thread?
Where do you have this procedure from? The devs seem not to agree with you here.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=34228.msg392933#msg392933
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=34228.msg392958#msg392958
Caarrie is no Dev.
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Its not official, its de facto. As in, the de facto use of threads to bump post counts being a fairly standard behavior in internet forums.
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As has been indicated, the ability to get a basic review on an idea by posting it to the forum first is a benefit. If a dev thinks something is worthwhile, they might respond with "post it to the tracker". If it has been posted before, someone will say so, hopefully add a link to the original thread, et cetera. Is it just me, or do other people see absolutely nothing wrong with this approach and are also doubtful that this really warrants a thread?
Where do you have this procedure from? The devs seem not to agree with you here.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=34228.msg392933#msg392933
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=34228.msg392958#msg392958
Caarrie is no Dev.
How isn't she a dev? Doesn't she fix bugs and work with the code, and she's very very active on the forums answering questions and directing people to the bug tracker. Maybe she doesn't have an official title of dev, but she's certainly a de facto (if not de jure) official of the game. And wasn't she involved with the GM team?
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Caarrie is a tester. And yes it does matter since Devs are usually those who implement the bugs, thus it's indeed a difference whether it was "a Dev" or not.
In the very least it's wrong to simply say "The devs seem not to agree with you here.".
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Alright, I'm "officially" "confused". Lock?
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Alright, I'm "officially" "confused". Lock?
you mean finally i agree with zanzibar?? :P
I am not a dev, i am a tester and i work hard to try to make sure that players get correct information. Also part of the job of the testing team is to make sure devs get infomation they need from players if that is a bug report or a future feature request. again as long as you want a feature request to possibly get ingame devs will look at the bug tracker before they search the forum and read pages and pages of threads just to find something they want to add ingame. Also keep in mind that the testing team has the right to close any bug or feature request if it is not valid or is just something that is known to not be added to the game. We dont have an official policy on handling feature requests but the team does have something in the works, for now all feature requests posted on the tracker are following the wishlist guidelines http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=21400.0. Now if you have a good idea and someone else agrees with you, then your idea might be good enough to get ingame, just make sure if you add it to the tracker it is very detailed the most detailed the better in these cases.
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What, you mean a common sense approach to the wishlist/feature request divide might actually be viable?
Anyway I lay claim to the quoted procedure, I didn't invent it I just related what I found to be productive in my few years here.
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Alright, I'm "officially" "confused". Lock?
you mean finally i agree with zanzibar?? :P
I am not a dev, i am a tester and i work hard to try to make sure that players get correct information. Also part of the job of the testing team is to make sure devs get infomation they need from players if that is a bug report or a future feature request. again as long as you want a feature request to possibly get ingame devs will look at the bug tracker before they search the forum and read pages and pages of threads just to find something they want to add ingame. Also keep in mind that the testing team has the right to close any bug or feature request if it is not valid or is just something that is known to not be added to the game. We dont have an official policy on handling feature requests but the team does have something in the works, for now all feature requests posted on the tracker are following the wishlist guidelines http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=21400.0. Now if you have a good idea and someone else agrees with you, then your idea might be good enough to get ingame, just make sure if you add it to the tracker it is very detailed the most detailed the better in these cases.
Right, so we should get rid of the wish list forum? Or are you saying we should keep it, so that the wishes made by people who understand the system have a better chance of implementation?
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I think it was the lock request....
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I think it was the lock request....
You obviously disagree with the request since you're still posting. :)
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Some people do find me disagreeable at times. :oops:
I agree there doesn't seem to be much point for this thread to continue.
Still it never hurts to discuss different ideas, this is a discussion forum after all. That is the main reason I would miss the wish list forum if it was eliminated.
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I made this thread because I thought Caarrie's comments reflected the opinions of the dev team re the wish forum. In reality, she was just pointing out how the system works. If you want your wish to get attention more quickly, skip the forum and go straight to the bug tracker. However if your wish is underdeveloped, it will just be deleted or ignored. [/thread]
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So the wishlist forum is for informal requests while the bugtracker is for formal requests. That's not too hard to understand.
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If one of the devs suggests making it a feature request it is probably lower impact and fairly easy to do. The dev or tester who suggests making it a feature request would tend to agree to a feature's usefulness/feasibility.
We have a constant workload as evidenced by the fact that more bugs are reported each release than can possibly be fixed.
The wishlist stays, generally I agree that most ideas are farts in the wind and having somewhere that people can purify an idea through discussion is a good thing.
Removing the wishlist will not make things easier for the devs if that is your concern, most don't read it. Those of us who do will either escalate and idea or ask you to do it via the bugtracker.
As I have said in the past, Planeshift is an idea rich environment, we do not hunger for ideas as much as for people to make manifest the ideas already out there.
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If one of the devs suggests making it a feature request it is probably lower impact and fairly easy to do. The dev or tester who suggests making it a feature request would tend to agree to a feature's usefulness/feasibility.
Also keep in mind that not all devs that might suggest or even move requests to the tracker are coding devs, so they might like the idea but not know how long it would take to add it ingame. The testing team suggesting moving requests to the tracker are just trying to make sure that devs in time will get a chance to view the request as not all will look though the forum for ideas.
Also at times talad does allow some testers to pick bugs or requests to add/fix and he will let that person know if it is approved to go ingame and then they will work on it, most of this type of request are very simple and easy ones as not all testers can code as well as some of the devs but this helps them to learn more.
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Also keep in mind that not all devs that might suggest or even move requests to the tracker are coding devs, so they might like the idea but not know how long it would take to add it ingame. The testing team suggesting moving requests to the tracker are just trying to make sure that devs in time will get a chance to view the request as not all will look though the forum for ideas.
Also at times talad does allow some testers to pick bugs or requests to add/fix and he will let that person know if it is approved to go ingame and then they will work on it, most of this type of request are very simple and easy ones as not all testers can code as well as some of the devs but this helps them to learn more.
Thanks for this explanation, Carrie. I did not know that.
So the term 'dev' is ambigous and it is unclear who is a dev and who not. In the future it might be easier to replace the term 'dev' with 'someone who could make the idea realised in PS'. </sarcasm>
Honestly: It is very difficult to contribute. I wonder how many already gave up trying to contribute because of this :-\
Using Xillix' terminology: Not everyone keeps farting in the wind when they do not know into what direction to fart. :-X
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Honestly: It is very difficult to contribute. I wonder how many already gave up trying to contribute because of this :-\
++;
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I don't use the wish list because the devs seem to only bother with the bug tracker (according to what everyone says)
and I don't use the bug tracker.
I'll explain that before someone tells me (again, for the billionth time) to use it.
I've seen in game several unreported bugs and have further information on bugs I've seen already on the bug tracker that I'd assume would be useful.
However, I've spent hours searching the bug tracker and can't figure out how to post anything there.
SO, I gave up. If the mods want it to make it so difficult to help the devs then I won't. I know for a fact that there are a lot of people like me but I'm just sick of dealing with people shouting after me to use the bugtracker.
I'm sure people will read this and think I'm a moron that I didn't figure it out and will, exasperated, tell me yet again to use the bugtracker.
I'm not going to so go ahead and say it, I won't.
An additional note: all the posts for bugs that I actually care to see fixed haven't even been edited in a year. Now tell me, why the hell am I being yelled at to march my ass over to the bugtracker when no one fixes bugs? The devs don't have time to work on kran attack animation, no one really gives a rip about it and hell, I've found out how to make it work anyway. There's no possitive motivation for anyone to post on the bugtracker; you get yelled at if you don't and ignored if you do. Tell me, really, why bother?
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If that is your attitude why bother even complaining about it? Nobody said you have to make an exhaustive search of the bug tracker before posting bugs nor is it critical if you select a wrong component. The dev who sorts through the new bugs (lanarel, I think) or another with privileges on the tracker will make whatever needed corrections. For that matter adding a comment is a matter of filling in a text field and clicking submit.
If you look at the task list filtered by the reporter bilbous you will see 26 open and 23 closed. Some of the closed ones were summarily closed, sometimes because it was a duplicate, other times it was deemed to be expected behaviour. In any event nobody ever castigated me for my errors.
All you need to do is click on "Add new task" when you are logged in
(http://jenness.info/addtask.png)
then select the area you think it involves or leave it unspecified, select task type: bug report or feature request or leave that unspecified, give it a meaningful title, fill in the description with as much detail as you can and you are done.
(http://jenness.info/addtask1.png)
It is a good idea to have email notifications on so that you will know when more information is requested or something is done with it.