PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dajoji on February 13, 2009, 05:19:20 pm
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So, Game Masters apply the game settings through events, bringing them closer to players' RP. We remind them of those things mechanics cannot yet cover or police. We create situations in which players can roleplay their characters in accordance to what should exist in the world of Yliakum. Because of this, events are run through settings first to make sure we got all angles covered and consistency is not compromised.
GMs also have access to certain powers that IC could be translated as "godly". We can drop an ulbernaut on your head if we need to. We can port you anywhere in the world and even to parallel dimensions where you are the only living person. We can make you sit down compulsively. We can cut your tongue. We can turn you into any living creature. We can make your character age, change the color of their hair or give you a tattoo and make these changes permanent. We can even strip you naked. And more. And we can do all of this with a few commands. That means that we can create IC situations in which your character will be "forced" to do or face something.
Note that I'm talking about IC situations. That means that should we do any of the things listed above it will be within a context that fits the game settings and players will always get the choice to sit the event out if it doesn't fit their character. We do not force players to join events. We offer the choice and from that point we provide consequences to the players' decisions.
Now, that means that we are somewhat in control of what may happen in these situations. The only thing we cannot and will not attempt to control will be your choices. We'll have different scenarios prepared so you can choose to follow one path or another and we try to roll with what players wish to do once the party has reached an agreement (if 10 people can't agree on what to do, we simply wait and see what they do as a group).
The bottom line is GMs have the upper hand here over players, in a similar yet, hopefully, more intelligent way as NPCs do with quests. Certain answers are expected from players, choices are given, and situations are altered to provide players with information they can use to solve the mysteries at hand. The way these situations are being altered is mostly through available mechanics and, again, supported IC by the settings, and we always provide a way out so all characters can stay IC and react as they should. Sometimes, we describe the situation with messages that describe things you may hear or see. Sometimes we will make you feel certain things as a consequence of your actions like a "deep sense of loss" caused by a divine power after you participated in some kind of ritual, or plain dizziness or a stomachache because that pie your character ate didn't agree with you.
Well, my question is: how do players feel about us having "the upper hand"? Do you consider that godmodding? If it is, is it the same as when a player does it? What would you find acceptable and what would be going too far? Do you think there's a better way?
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Hmmm... at a first thought it is for me the difference if your character godmods ("I don't like your nose and so I turn you into a clacker" *zap* ) or if you use the powers to create an as realistic scenario as possible ( *An extraordinary strong earthquake lets all stumble* -> You let all sit down a moment )
Naturally, I wouldn't like the first but would like the second. ;)
Sen
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The bottom line is GMs have the upper hand here over players, in a similar yet, hopefully, more intelligent way as NPCs do with quests.
That's the goal.
With a lot of the events I've been to, it seems less about being IC and more about showing off or attracting attention, or simply having fun.
Well, my question is: how do players feel about us having "the upper hand"? Do you consider that godmodding? If it is, is it the same as when a player does it? What would you find acceptable and what would be going too far? Do you think there's a better way?
It's a matter of how you do it. Can you give examples of things that have been done and then we can say if we think it was inappropriate? It's best to work in terms of specific examples.
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First off I would like to remind you what GM stands for, Games Master, not Game Magician.
So I fell you do not need to do most of the things you have sighted, not to mention find a IC reason for doing it.
In my view a GM should only need ban/boot/mute/port/move target/give/take items/change name. The rest should be handled by setting devs, after all it is there job, and you and me do not have privy to all they are planning.
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Talad and the settings team do have a secret plan, and we don't know all the details of it, but players have more than enough information to roleplay. If players have enough information to roleplay well, then game masters have enough information to run events that are fun and settings-friendly.
Edit: Dajoji even said that game masters consult with the settings team before running an event.
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well, since we are asked how we feel, here is my opinion:
If a GM was doing an event where they played the role of Talad, Laanx, etc, then appropriate power would be ... appropriate.
I would think the primary role of a GM would be to police and admin the game itself. (as per Rennaj's post). If they get bored and just want to play, I would think they should play normal characters bound by the same rules and laws. Imagine if police were allowed to shoot anyone who got in their way when they were off duty.
However... If they were to, for example, be creative in their roles as GM... Let's say you catch someone aggroing monsters and getting them lost, to prevent others from playing. Sure, you could warn them, but how much more fun it would be if you then simply became the mightiest ulbernaut, or whatever they were aggro'ing and chased them across maps, wait for them to log back in... etc... now this vicious monster might even run into hydlaa, where the community could join forces to defeat it. Fun stuff. And then an "angel' of talad could explain to the mob... I mean crowd.. that so-and so lured this danger to hydlaa, and for the next 10 minutes, or until they die, Talad would be lifting his protection from him... hehehe. That and the local guard leader and the octarch asking the posse to remove this person from yliakum, and help him find his trial in the DR, (where the penalty will be the curse, as normal... of course) would liven things up...
In other words, it can be fun, within settings and all that.
But a God other than the ones we know coming into the world and trying to interact with us mere mortals, would the residents of Yliakum not start a new church in their name?
Besides, I remember once chatting around the anvil at harnquist's and harnquist joined the conversation. No spells, no magic, just conversation. Much better than even when the Riverlings invaded Hydlaa, IMO. (besides, where are those guys? I have looked all over. If they were from the stone labyrinth, then, as per the octarch decree, we should of killed them, but if they are not, then we should not have... and I do nto see them locally.... were we wrong to let them live? hehehe, I know.. :offtopic: )
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Well, let's say you are tied down. Then you try to cut the ropes with a pocket knife. The GM says "It's a strong rope. It takes time to cut through it", while the player says "It's a strong knife, it can cut through any rope easily!" The rationale being the GM probably needs the player to sit still for a minute while the player has a Q300 dagger. Should the GM be able to determine the strength of the rope?
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Well, let's say you are tied down. Then you try to cut the ropes with a pocket knife. The GM says "It's a strong rope. It takes time to cut through it", while the player says "It's a strong knife, it can cut through any rope easily!" The rationale being the GM probably needs the player to sit still for a minute while the player has a Q300 dagger. Should the GM be able to determine the strength of the rope?
Maybe the question should be if the players have to stay IC shouldn't the GM's also? Though I will say if an event is done with fun in mind for EVERYONE then I do not think the GM powers will come into play at all. A good event should not need it anyway if it is well thought out. Godmodding is forbidden and it should apply to everyone.
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Why use rope when chains will do a better job? Both are imaginary to begin with.
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Well, let's say you are tied down. Then you try to cut the ropes with a pocket knife. The GM says "It's a strong rope. It takes time to cut through it", while the player says "It's a strong knife, it can cut through any rope easily!" The rationale being the GM probably needs the player to sit still for a minute while the player has a Q300 dagger. Should the GM be able to determine the strength of the rope?
The real answer is "Create an animation for it."
Why use rope when chains will do a better job? Both are imaginary to begin with.
The example was with ropes.
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The example was with ropes.
The obvious response is to use the appropriate tool in the first place. If it is important for the player to be immobilized such that he cannot free himself then even chains will not do, Use magical manacles or some such thing so that it is perfectly obvious he has to god-mod to get out or wait to be released. Should gm's have power not available to players? absolutely
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Well, let's say you are tied down. Then you try to cut the ropes with a pocket knife. The GM says "It's a strong rope. It takes time to cut through it", while the player says "It's a strong knife, it can cut through any rope easily!" The rationale being the GM probably needs the player to sit still for a minute while the player has a Q300 dagger. Should the GM be able to determine the strength of the rope?
This exactly happened to me along with another player over a year ago. A GM used a whip to tie us and forced us to sit down. We -tried- all sorts of ways to get rid of that, in the end it became no fun at all. Why?
Well, I think it was obvious we -could- actually RP in a fairly enough way and there was no need for that, there was no need either to be silent upon our attempts to free ourselves (the GMs were probably busy in tells and sorting the event, but that doesn't get to the modded player, does it?). We felt modded and ignored, and simply logged off after 10-15 mins of trying to free our chars of a forced /sit.
So my answer is yes, it is godmodding and yes, it can easily get annoying. I believe you won't be able to "control" some players if you don't use such commands, but I also believe there are -plenty- of players who will go along with anything the GM does to them with simple /me's and that means GMs should try to evaluate wether the player is about to accept the consequences of the ongoing RP without using extra GM powers or not.
On the other hand, even if the players may not be willing to play "fair", a GM forcing anything on them may nonetheless reduce the fun for those players as well, so I think that generally it is a bad idea to use any sort of commands alike.
As a sidenote, I remember one of Dajoji's events for a small group I took part in. In the end of the event the group would get Levrus to brew a levitating potion for them, this meaning most of us ended flying around for a short while, which was quite fun and fitting (that was the whole reward of the event btw, which was great). So I guess it may depend on -how- the GM powers are used regarding the player's opinion/feeling about it.
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good points. I guess my view on that is use actors to "pretend to be bleeding" rather than slicing up your audience and expecting them all to like it.
Many would go to great length to play along, if you need them to, find ones that will do so, willingly?
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Great points Lhaa, and actually a lot of what I was going to touch on. Players like to feel they have some control during the event, able to change the story with the skills they feel their characters have or have actually worked on, factions, skills, stats, etc. A few examples I've seen in events is veteran players just go along with whatever they think the GMs want them to do, knowing there is only one "solution" to the event, so why fight it, just go along with it, even if it goes against the way they control their character normally.
I think the point about the ropes is if someone has an idea that the GMs didn't think about and they want to challenge the storyline, they can't because then that will mess up the way the GMs want the event to go. This is of course the challenge, learning how to improvise, diverge and make the story up as it goes along, trying to take into account the diversity of the characters who make up Yliakum. Players don't want to be just classified as citizens and pawns. Some want to be evil, some want to be drunks, outlaws, suave, noble, etc, and events do not allow for that freedom. I think using the factions, skills, stats, descriptions of characters could help keep things more realistic during events.
And why is it so bad if we fail at an event? If it goes horribly wrong? If that keeps happening, the players we'll have something to work on next time, and it could open up new ideas for the next event. Like the Vileneck event would have been pretty fun if the evil aligned characters could have sided with him and helped him, and I know some were trying but they were killed just as quickly as the do-gooders and seemed to have been ignored. What if someone warned him that the coins were the cause of his downfall and he actually stopped taking them early on? I think the storylines should be more open ended and the use of god-modding to keep them inline should be used more for improvisations. Storylines could go on for months and I know most say we can do this now on our own, but with the mechanics the GMs have at their disposal, it would make it much more interesting and fun with their involvement, especially since skill sets dominate the power of a character, so newer players would feel left out unless they got a temporary boost from the GMs, similar to being able to fly for a short while.
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I think the GMs should have regular casual encounters with the players.
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Ok. Godmod me.
At least let me know what is going on and give me a chance to respond if I want to be involved first though. I did get caught in an "event" that irritated me. I had a graphics error when I logged in and was killed in an ulbernaut raid on the plat mine that was in progress when I logged in. I must say though that I complained in /tell to a GM and whoever it was was nice enough to help me back out of DR and back to the area. Incidentally, I was only there for training and ran down out of Gug before logging off. Still managed to get caught up in the raid though. Later on I returned to the area and was killed by an ulbernaut while trying to defend the miners. I was not bothered by that due to actually having participated in it, and that was just the result.
The point of all this is to say The powers when used correctly are good. As long as consideration is used and maybe a bit of notification (eg. "XXXXX /tells you can we tie you up for 20 minutes for this event?) It is a good thing. And just like RL there are consequences, some good and some bad. Common sense is what is needed. Not more regulation. The only problem is when people have different ideas of common sense.
Oh and let me say also, Thank you GM's for a thankless and annoying job. I would not do it if you paid me. You have my respect.
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The question is: is it really godmodding if a GM can actually use mechanics to do the things players can only RP-pretend and if said actions are done within a context fitting within settings?
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Every gm began as a player, every gm knows what it is like to participate as players in gm events.
Players and gms have distinct access for clear reasons.
Please everyone, make an effort to discuss this topic nicely or you'll find it locked very fast.
Dajoji is making a good faith effort to garner some feedback and improve the gaming experience, if I see this get out of hand I'll godmod this into a locked thread right quick for you.
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Ah okay, I think I understand the question now. I'm fine with GM and Dev characters being the most powerful in the game, using huge levels of the current skill sets or using the GM codes to try to mimic the possible future settings. Examples would be a bit easier to figure out and discuss, but I know things like morphing, levitation, teleportation, etc. are going to be in game, so GMs using those seems cool to me. This line gets a bit blurred for players that don't know the full possibility of settings though, so right now it seems GMs can do whatever they want. Laws of whatever universe this is still need to be obeyed, even for gods...
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Well, my question is: how do players feel about us having "the upper hand"? Do you consider that godmodding? If it is, is it the same as when a player does it? What would you find acceptable and what would be going too far? Do you think there's a better way?
Of course you have an upper-hand. I do not consider it "god-modding" if it is a GM doing it. But, still ... discretion is the better part of valor.
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GMs godmodding or not certainly is a difficult topic. During that "Levitation" event of Dajoji's my char (and few others) was lifted high above ground. It all perfectly fit into a storyline, I could not but had to praise. GMs "godmodding" can be most pleasant!
On the other hand, once my dermorian, accompanied by an ynnwn fighter, was approached by one dwarven woman right outside the Hydlaa gates, and more or less bluntly was asked if they were good or bad. Shady, but good to their heart, they let the woman hear what she wanted, that they were evil beings, so they could join that lady, intending to set a trap on her (were we lower beings allowed to dare?=P). Having been lead into the wilds, they opposed that lady. The woman then drew a whip to tie my char all of a sudden (he was "frozen"), the ynnwn company tried to free him by cutting the whip, and the GM player told us the whip was not to be cut since it is magical, leaving not a chance to counter the attack. Furthermore the lady said she will kill my char instantly in case the ynnwn would attempt once more to free him, or kill the other one.
I logged off due to severe flaws in my eyes.
The latter example once more showed to me that GM events are plotted and figured out unflexibly. Fit in, or be godmodded out of it.
GMs can godmod to give the current settings meaning, and I do like it! But what is crucial in my eyes, is, to always give the player a chance to avoid attacks or whatever approach, and by no means godmod the way to override any further player intervention. From my experience having partaken, or at least eye-witnessed, quite a few events I can not say this was always the case, but more appeared like "the almighty GMs" are testing their playgrounds to their limits, not giving a shed on players.
Since that latter GM event I never fancied to join any anymore.
So if you GMs are about to bring up some stuff, and grant freedom to the players to some degree to join or deny, be free in time and mind to modify your plot the same way.
Otherwise "godmodding GMs" will remain the same to me: People having a plot on their mind that will be forced upon players by all means. Unfair and not tolerable.
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Otherwise "godmodding GMs" will remain the same to me: People having a plot on their mind that will be forced upon players by all means. Unfair and not tolerable.
But entirely realistic, and therefore fair.
Perhaps a godmodding GM is a GM who prevents players from godmodding?
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Having been a GM and written some events that have been done in game, I can assure you most of them are very lose as to how it ends, by that I mean it is up to the players how the event plays out. The exceptions being a Settings special event to mark something, therefore it must have a set end in most cases.
GMs are very much held accountable as to way they behave in game, and all events are cleared through Talad before the ok is given to do them.
As for the question of God modding, Sometimes it is executable, but is normally done with the players consent, If a player does not like what is going on to him/her, they can always ask the GM to stop, If they do not report it, simple.
Now some of you have mentioned super stats, GMs need them for events, One event I was in with 400 for all stats/skills, I lasted a few seconds in a fight, as there was so many players attacking me, so you now see why they need super stats to last longer in a fight to make it look more real.
That was slightly of topic, but was to clear up a few miss conceptions.
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Having been a GM and written some events that have been done in game, I can assure you most of them are very lose as to how it ends, by that I mean it is up to the players how the event plays out. The exceptions being a Settings special event to mark something, therefore it must have a set end in most cases.
That's great to hear! Do all GMs have the same writing style?
GMs are very much held accountable as to way they behave in game, and all events are cleared through Talad before the ok is given to do them.
As for the question of God modding, Sometimes it is executable, but is normally done with the players consent, If a player does not like what is going on to him/her, they can always ask the GM to stop, If they do not report it, simple.
How is consent obtained? Do most players know they have the right to challenge a GM?
Now some of you have mentioned super stats, GMs need them for events, One event I was in with 400 for all stats/skills, I lasted a few seconds in a fight, as there was so many players attacking me, so you now see why they need super stats to last longer in a fight to make it look more real.
I agree. Unrealistically strong players need unrealistically strong foes.
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Having been a GM and written some events that have been done in game, I can assure you most of them are very lose as to how it ends, by that I mean it is up to the players how the event plays out. The exceptions being a Settings special event to mark something, therefore it must have a set end in most cases.
That's great to hear! Do all GMs have the same writing style?
This opened ended type of event is how ALL gm EVENTS are written.
The GMs are given a template for how all gm events are to be planed out and this must be followed in order for it to have a chance to be approved.
GMs are very much held accountable as to way they behave in game, and all events are cleared through Talad before the ok is given to do them.
As for the question of God modding, Sometimes it is executable, but is normally done with the players consent, If a player does not like what is going on to him/her, they can always ask the GM to stop, If they do not report it, simple.
How is consent obtained?
For a gm to get their event approved they have to show it to talad on irc, email or any other way they have been given to contact him.
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Having been a GM and written some events that have been done in game, I can assure you most of them are very lose as to how it ends, by that I mean it is up to the players how the event plays out. The exceptions being a Settings special event to mark something, therefore it must have a set end in most cases.
That's great to hear! Do all GMs have the same writing style?
This opened ended type of event is how ALL gm EVENTS are written.
The GMs are given a template for how all gm events are to be planed out and this must be followed in order for it to have a chance to be approved.
Neat!
GMs are very much held accountable as to way they behave in game, and all events are cleared through Talad before the ok is given to do them.
As for the question of God modding, Sometimes it is executable, but is normally done with the players consent, If a player does not like what is going on to him/her, they can always ask the GM to stop, If they do not report it, simple.
How is consent obtained?
For a gm to get their event approved they have to show it to talad on irc, email or any other way they have been given to contact him.
I meant consent from the players being acted upon. (Janner said such things are "done with the players consent.")
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Depends on the type of action, sometimes a player will be asked if he/she minds, as some might if no talk is entered into can be seen as being mean.
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Depends on the type of action, sometimes a player will be asked if he/she minds, as some might if no talk is entered into can be seen as being mean.
Ok, but how is consent usually obtained?
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Do I feel godmodded by a GM who has more features available?
Only if he forces my play into a specific direction, no matter what my own opinion is.
Not if he only guides the roleplay and fills it with atmosphere.
I can still remember a specific event where we helped an unusual couple getting required ingredients for a meal, and should get "rewarded" with a banquet of even more strange food. Well ... we all totally misunderstood the intentions, I guess. As strange everything looked, as much we played that it still tastes well. GMs could have forced us into understanding that the meals were instead horrible...
The only thing I am not yet too convinced about is, if those GMs who play guards really should stick as much to the written law and given orders as wearing blinkers on their brains... ;)
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Given a certain situation in an event, like being attacked by a mob while mining. Is that realistic or godmodding? Is it forcing players to RP (in terms of acknowledging the fact that there are wild beasts that could attack you on sight) or should they expect that kind of thing?
What about other things ingame that players might be oblivious about like the laws, for example. Is it really godmodding if a guard "forces" you to obey the law or is that an IC behavior players should have?
In other words, in all these situations, we sometimes face the decision of whether or not making players understand that there is a context in which realistically, they can't just do anything they want and expect it to be IC, like casting spells that do not exist, or walk through another person, or log out and relog, etc. In other words, things that we could consider questionable as good RP. At the moment, we don't force it or at least try not to unless the person becomes disruptive and it's not a matter of RP anymore but appropriate player behavior.
Like LigH stated above, we normally throw information at players and they are free to do as they please. Should they? Should we let them know OOCly that they are not using the information right? Should we police RP that way or will that take out all the fun from the game?
Ideally, in these situations we will convey our messages in a way that is not imposing yet clear enough. Sometimes, it can't happen that way and we need to adjust so that one player alone doesn't cut everyone else from the event, and that's something I've mentioned before regarding events: if you want the event to move down a certain path, you have to make the party agree to it first. Expect to be ignored if you leave the group behind.
Anyway, as GMs we often have to deal with contradictory requests from players. Do this, don't do this, do that, don't do that. We can't satisfy everyone but maybe if we, as a community, look at the things GMs are asked to do, we will learn that not everything can be done to fix something without completely ruining the game for someone else in a different level.
So now I have a different question: is it godmodding if a GM tells you how to RP something so it is accurate with the IC context you're in as well as the game settings?
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Given a certain situation in an event, like being attacked by a mob while mining. Is that realistic or godmodding?
It depends on how you do it.
What about other things ingame that players might be oblivious about like the laws, for example. Is it really godmodding if a guard "forces" you to obey the law or is that an IC behavior players should have?
It depends on how you do it.
In other words, in all these situations, we sometimes face the decision of whether or not making players understand that there is a context in which realistically, they can't just do anything they want and expect it to be IC, like casting spells that do not exist, or walk through another person, or log out and relog, etc.
A more practical example would be duels within the city limits, or people who do nothing but mine.
So now I have a different question: is it godmodding if a GM tells you how to RP something so it is accurate with the IC context you're in as well as the game settings?
It depends on how you do it.
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Zanzibar: try to elaborate, otherwise you may come across the wrong way.
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Zanzibar: try to elaborate, otherwise you may come across the wrong way.
I was simply saving myself time since explaining myself each time would be laborious and I thought my meaning was obvious.
Given a certain situation in an event, like being attacked by a mob while mining. Is that realistic or godmodding?
It depends on how you do it. If the mob appeared out of nowhere and started killing people at a distance, and people who tried to escape were prevented from escaping, and the mob was immune to attack, then that would be an extreme example of godmodding. Obviously, there are multiple ways that mobs could be played by GMs, and some ways would be godmodding and other ways would not be godmodding. Lets say that a clacker slowly walks up to the miners, making noise as it does, and then some player kills it in one hit. That would obviously not be godmodding.
What about other things ingame that players might be oblivious about like the laws, for example. Is it really godmodding if a guard "forces" you to obey the law or is that an IC behavior players should have?
It depends on how you do it. If the guard has magical powers that eliminate the possibility for escape, then it may be godmodding unless settings say that the guards have magical powers that eliminate the possibility for escape. If guards simply show up when a crime has been committed and are completely ineffective, then it wouldn't be godmodding at all. Something inbetween those two extremes would obviously be preferable. Specific examples would be better to talk about.
So now I have a different question: is it godmodding if a GM tells you how to RP something so it is accurate with the IC context you're in as well as the game settings?
It depends on how you do it. First off, this sounds like OOC communication, and godmodding refers to IC events. Anytime that you mix OOC and IC, you are godmodding. If someone asks a question about how they can sit down, and I respond with "I think I'm going to /sit over there.", then I may be technically godmodding because I included a slash within IC dialogue. If you can give specific examples for what you're thinking about, then everyone will be in a better position to judge whether or not it's godmodding.
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So now I have a different question: is it godmodding if a GM tells you how to RP something so it is accurate with the IC context you're in as well as the game settings?
That doesn't sound like godmodding to me. The problem as I always see it here is just mechanics, so things will always need to be explained a bit in order for the situation to be as realistic as possible. So maybe to use as an example, the tie up situation with the "magical whip" that can't be cut, but that seems a bit like godmodding to me. The GM character has full use of a certain set of mechanics and the players have none. So, to maybe more accurately start the RP from the beginning, things should be explained to the characters a bit because with the mechanics limited, it is tough to figure out what they are getting themselves into. An example may be:
GM Char: "the female dwarf pulls out a magical whip and flings it at player X, attempting to tie them up."
GM Char: [/roll 100 sided dice, you'll need a 90+ to save vs. it]
Worst case:
Player X: [I'm a magical ninja that has a 100% save vs. magical whips thrown by female dwarfs]
GM reads the players description and looks at factions and stats
GM Char: [No you aren't, you are crafter who likes slow walks by the lake and collecting flowers, roll the dice]
Better case:
Player X: [I'm maxed in all stats and have trained in many weapons and armor, can I get a better save roll than 90?!]
GM Char: [okay 85+, I'm very powerful and would not have attacked you if I didn't think I could take you out]
Player X: /roll 100
Player X rolls a 75
GM Char: /me successfully ties up Player X
Player X: "Crap"
To me, if mechanics were 110% done, then the whole whip RP would be done visually, with saves and rolls, etc. and if the character failed then they would know the dwarf was more skilled and powerful, instead of just being told as it happened, if that makes any sense. :)
I know this is a pain and probably a crude example, but I think some fairness is what most players look for. Not to say GM events aren't fair, but just when new things are thrown at them that they didn't know were around. The Vileneck event for example, everyone all of a sudden wanted to steal a guard's staff that made them industructable and able to turn invisible and teleport. But, then they are told they are impossible to steal and use. As far as raids, everywhere this should be possible and warned about frequently, but yes, them teleporting right next to someone and cutting them down in seconds, doesn't seem too fair. Building up the scene though with noises, screams, etc., seems to be more realistic. And powerful mages showing up at top of the platinum mine to cut everyone down, while fun, would definitely seem to me to be godmodding because the sole purpose of their arrival has no background and Muglick just sits there and doesn't "guard" the area.
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Given a certain situation in an event, like being attacked by a mob while mining. Is that realistic or godmodding? Is it forcing players to RP (in terms of acknowledging the fact that there are wild beasts that could attack you on sight) or should they expect that kind of thing?
What about other things ingame that players might be oblivious about like the laws, for example. Is it really godmodding if a guard "forces" you to obey the law or is that an IC behavior players should have?
In other words, in all these situations, we sometimes face the decision of whether or not making players understand that there is a context in which realistically, they can't just do anything they want and expect it to be IC, like casting spells that do not exist, or walk through another person, or log out and relog, etc. In other words, things that we could consider questionable as good RP. At the moment, we don't force it or at least try not to unless the person becomes disruptive and it's not a matter of RP anymore but appropriate player behavior.
I feel that both of these situations would be acceptable, and would actually make gameplay more realistic and fun. That is, as long as the mobs or guards stay within settings and character too...
Take right now...Oslorrod is mining a bit of ore standing about ten feet from an ulber and about 20 from a few more. It's essentially unrealistic for me to mine here...unless the ulbers are really dumb, or friendly...If a GM took over those ulbers and attacked me, I would have no problem with that...as far as escape?...I should have an opportunity to try and escape...but perhaps they chase me until I can go no farther...still no problem with that...perhaps I should zigzag more!
hmmm...I now wonder how far an ulber can run!
Guards should enforce the laws of Yliakum...if I duel in Hydlaa, or RP fight in text...it's still against the law and if I"m reported and caught, I should put up some jail time...
Should be balanced and realistic though...if i catch wind of the report to guards, and can escape the walls...i should be able to be on the run...perhaps until my wanted poster is expired.
I think this would make the game more fun.
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Something that I don't believe came up during this discussion was trials and how GMs run them.
Yes, I'm actually obeying forum rules by posting here not creating a duplicate thread.... go me!
Personally, I do NOT think that the recent trial was godmoding by the GMs. Tolian could have ran away (although he would have been admitting his guilt!), or the audience could have done more to defend them (even though they were being told not to speak.... are you going to do everything you're told?). As far as Tolian's documents being confiscated by the authorities, that wasn't god moding either, since Tolian could have made copies of everything before being arrested just in case something happened to him.
So I'm going to come on the side of the GMs and say that they acted appropriately. I think some people were upset with the fact that there wasn't good evidence against Tolian, and Tolian was told he was already determined to be guilty before the trial so no defense was needed. But if the GMs DIDN'T do that then they would be acting outside of the settings, and so they HAD to have a kangaroo court in order to AVOID godmoding.
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The trial was perfect :). 'Nuff said.
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it was remarkably similar, if somewhat foreshortened, to the Vileneck trial. Consistency is always good to see :)
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If a case comes to public 'trial' in Yliakum, guilt has already been proven behind the scenes. No one going into a public trial is ever innocent. In keeping with medieval ways, the trial is just to show the people that justice is being done. Those who are proven innocent behind the scenes for major crimes are simply let go, and the public rarely hears of them. People are told to remain silent because they have nothing to say in the matter of guilt or innocence. In that way, GMs are not Godmoding at all. Just keeping up traditions.
/me helped a bit in designing the 'trial' system, by the way. \o/
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If a case comes to public 'trial' in Yliakum, guilt has already been proven behind the scenes. No one going into a public trial is ever innocent. In keeping with medieval ways, the trial is just to show the people that justice is being done. Those who are proven innocent behind the scenes for major crimes are simply let go, and the public rarely hears of them. People are told to remain silent because they have nothing to say in the matter of guilt or innocence. In that way, GMs are not Godmoding at all. Just keeping up traditions.
Exactly. And it also serves to make roleplaying an easier task for the GMs, who are already too busy.
Although I would correct your wording: "No one going into a public trial is ever thought to be innocent." Wrongful convictions are an obvious possibility, even if the possibility of wrongful conviction is ignored by the authorities.
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Was speaking of the pronouncement of guilt, not whether the accused are guilty or not. I am sure 'mistakes' do happen, though. Someone with the wrong view of the government gets a little too loud... and everyone claims to me innocent... ;)
There might be a quest somewhere in the game right now giving a good example of the results of the above in action. :whistling:
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So, I'm only on the forums for a few minutes and don't have time to read the whole thread, but I need to put something into this:
It is the role of GM's to cause certain situations in the game
It is the role of players to make a decision or act as they see fit according to the situation
It is then the role of the GM's to decide upon and enforce the repercussions of said decision/act, be it (as mentioned in Daj's original post) throwing up due to bad pie, or being spontaneously stripped.
A GM's are MEANT to 'godmod' as you call it, it is their job to arbitrarily choose how things play out, hopefully keeping as close to IC realism as possible. If a GM spawns a bunch of monsters at the mine, it's ok so long as the GM can think of a valid IC motive for them to do so.
If GM's didn't decide what happens and apply it, then absolutely nothing would happen because we have no scripted random game events and everything would suck.
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My two tria:
It is not always the role of the players as a whole to make all the decisions, as in cases such as trials and so on, the GMs are the law, and thus decide the fate of all.
Just because the trial of Tolian contained what some would see as 'little evidence', and he was convicted, does not indicate godmodding of any kind. If you look at Settings, the Octarchy has absolute power in the land. The citizens of the Octarchy lose most typical privacy rights in the name of security. As far as concluding that he is guilty with little evidence, well, in the Octarchy's opinion it would be better to be safe than sorry, and it's not like anyone can do anything about it. Although you can IC try to revolt, it won't get far (I can imagine IC counters easily being dished out).
The Settings of the game make things easy. You are not here to have control, you live in an oppresive dictatorship, and if you peeve the Octarchy off, they will deal to you for the sake of the kingdom.
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GMs do not always lead the play completely. They are not necessarily guards.
I remember a play with a banquet when the "leading" GMs were quite helplessly at the mercy of the participants who completely misunderstood the situation.
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I was meaning in many situations, such as trials, etc., where the law or prominent (NPCs etc.) members of society are involved.
Really, half the idea of GMs is that they can godmod to keep things under control (hence they have all those special commands!)
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My two tria, Not all events are run by GMs, Also Not all events are written by GMs, Hence some events may be run by Devs and their learners. ^^
So make sure you know all facts before posting dribble about GMs. ^^
Also completely unrelated to this, Janner will be in game, IF I see Godmodding, be sure I will report it, no matter who the Muppet is ^^
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Hooray for Janner! His statue has long been missed on the brink of the plaza. He was such a fixture that it seemed he would always be there.
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My two tria, Not all events are run by GMs, Also Not all events are written by GMs, Hence some events may be run by Devs and their learners. ^^
So make sure you know all facts before posting dribble about GMs. ^^
When a dev is running an RP event, they'll be seen as a GM by the players.
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My two tria, Not all events are run by GMs, Also Not all events are written by GMs, Hence some events may be run by Devs and their learners. ^^
So make sure you know all facts before posting dribble about GMs. ^^
When a dev is running an RP event, they'll be seen as a GM by the players.
Being seen does not make them GMs, also they do not have same powers as a GM ^^
So again know all the facts ^^
P.S. Devs know more about settings ^^
P.P.S. GMs have to ask in some cases ^^
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What's with all the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^?
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Being seen does not make them GMs, also they do not have same powers as
That is a moot point to a player. If it has GM powers, it is a GM. The players are not going to perceive it any other way.
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= ^.^ =
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Being seen does not make them GMs, also they do not have same powers as
That is a moot point to a player. If it has GM powers, it is a GM. The players are not going to perceive it any other way.
Bingo.
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I think the GMs should have regular casual encounters with the players.
I don't think I've read anything as hilariously easy to misinterpret on these forums as this, ever. Thanks Zanzi, you've brightened my day. Thats going in the sig.
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lol Oh wow. I can't believe I missed that. Soooooo not what I meant.