PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Felius on June 25, 2009, 03:38:50 am
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Well, just a basic a idea here. If I understand correctly, in the setting there isn't much room for doubt in the existence of the gods... The term atheism technically refers only to the lack of belief in the existence of god or gods. With that in mind, I'd like to suggest that the term be changed to misotheism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism ), which is more appropriate for the belief that while the god exists they are not worth worship, or the hatred of the gods.
Yeah, it's doesn't really matter much for the game purposes, it's just that I feel Atheism is wholly inappropriate here, and also might disseminate a wrong concept of what is atheism (I'll not enter on it right now, as it's not the purpose of the topic, but for now, suffice to say that it's does not make any statement other than the lack of belief in the existence of gods)
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If taken in context of PlaneShift I think Atheism is understood by most players. Introducing another new word, especially to the non-native english speakers would be confusing and counter-productive.
As for your second point we are only talking about the PlaneShift definition of atheism, any other meaning is irrelevent, we have a varied and multicultural playerbase and we make no differentiation between creeds.
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hmm well I'm not so sure the term is really as well understood as you say Mordraugion seeing how often I have seen people who need to be reminded that an atheist doesn't doubt the existance of the gods in Yliakum.
I really do think it is a good idea to change the term or remove it all together.
I agree however that misotheism is not really a good substitute.
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Call them the misbegodden :devil:
certainly misotheism is an entirely uncommon term.
It would be better to call them the Accursed as that is what, in effect, they will be once it starts to matter.
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This is slightly :offtopic: but I think there should be a nominal option in addition to atheism as some may somewhat worship and be a little deferential but don't go to the temple regularly, however they would never outright disregard the gods like the atheists.
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'normal' people.
IE; Agnostic?
I believe agnostic would fit well in the planeshift world. Believing in the presence of god/gods, but not subscribing to any particular religion.
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Whether or not players actually know the word should not be too relevant. I find that playing RPG's extended my vocabulary. A lot of the words used aren't thought in English class so I had to look up a lot of them and I still have to from time to time. Personally I think this is what gives fantasy RPG's its mystical atmosphere. Thus I'd simply say pick the one that fits best and don't worry about whether people know the word. They can always look it up or you can place a short description next to it.
I second Hydrolyzer and think agnostic is a good alternative. It can go either way: theism or atheism.
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that is not agnosticism Hydrolizer,
religious agnostics neither believe in nor disbelieve god. As such it is a terribly academic and dreary position
and while it may suit individual characters fine in the game or in real life, implementing it as an option is surely
the most boring category you could think of.
Mostly, I have met religious agnosticism in philosophers and scientists unable to subscribe to atheism
because theoretical notions alone do not warrant stronger version of atheism very well or at all.
[this does not contradict Joteses definition of agnosticism which seems to be in line with the above,
but we seem to disagree on whether this is an interesting addition to the positions you could take towards religion]
To add my own two cents, I like Hydrolizer's idea, I would just recommend to choose a different name,
like 'spiritual' position.
As he said, they would not deny the existence of the deities or disbelieve in magic, but they would,
(for a multitude of possible reasons) refuse to submit to any particular deity of the planeshift universe
and thus probably attract suspicion from all of them. :P
It would only be for those stubborn enough and willing to go the hard way, just as atheism is now...
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A discussion about the Real World definition is a rather academic and pointless exercise, there is no single word that can define the PS word Atheism.
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well yes, but the in-game terminology is nevertheless borrowed from real life,
and one can disagree whether the in-game concept of what is now called 'atheism'
is best described by that term in-game.
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If people are so confused about it, then why change one term with another one which is even less common?
However, there has been a lot of fuss over this word until now. If I may offer a suggestion - perhaps adding another option to character creation saying "No religion" might be a bit more appropriate?
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If people are so confused about it, then why change one term with another one which is even less common?
I fully support Misotheism, as it accurately describes this unusual circumstance. Might I remind you that uncommon terms become more common as their use is needed? Plus, I am certain adapting to one word isn't harder to adapting to any fantasy word like Klyros or Enkindukai.
However, there has been a lot of fuss over this word until now. If I may offer a suggestion - perhaps adding another option to character creation saying "No religion" might be a bit more appropriate?
No religion is way too broad as it it could refer to many definitions, such as actual Atheism, Misotheism, or even Universalism.
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Not the first time in this forum that semantic nit picking has found atheism, like godmodding, opensource and other ps words they all take a regular bashing without any compulsive and compelling reason to change.
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Not to mention that misotheism sounds like some kind of a cult based around soup consumption. Atheism is the proper term to use.
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Not to mention that misotheism sounds like some kind of a cult based around soup consumption.
Why? Do you know of any?
Atheism is the proper term to use.
The point is Atheism is NOT the "proper" term, and Misotheism, having the correct definition, would be appropriate to use as a replacement.
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You bring your real world definitions to PS.
We're defining it differently in PS, and despite the tone in character creation (which reflects the attitudes of the society, not the individual) atheism is a faction and as suck is intended to confer some advantages in future implementation.
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We're defining it differently in PS
Maybe you should start a glossary.
I remember a few discussions that circled around definitions, at the end it turned out that PS just uses a different definition for a common word.
Say you would use "globe" in PS. People assume you are referring to something round, but due to your own definition it is rectangular.
How can you wonder why people misunderstand?
So, not only in this case but in general, if you use a common human languange, better use the same common definitions. To derive from this I neither find any original, nor is it any user friendly.
Why not simply call it heathendom, disbelief or faithlessness?
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Results 1 - 10 of about 7,160 for misotheism Hardly a common word, especially when you consider 1 - 10 of about 7,820,000 for atheism. Of those misotheism hits I imagine the largest portion will be wikipedia and its rip-offs followed by definitions. Common correct usage will be quite limited especially considering the limited totality of hits.
Not only that but not everyone that does not follow any particular god does so because they hate the gods (the actual definition of the term) so its usage is no more accurate than the more familiar atheist.
Give it up, your esoteric term will never cut it.
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For what it is worth people are dealing with trouble over a HIGHLY CONTEXTUALIZED term that is used only in character creation and is clearly defined there.
If it doesn't accord with the real world well guess what?
The real world doesn't have Klyros, Kormi, or Kadaikos...
Let's just really open up the discussion.
You rewrite for me how Atheism should be described in character creation and you determine how many variants settings should write for, and what factions we should add to the game, and what different versions of non-belief should be considered.
I will make sure we do our best to take your modern nuanced sensibilities and add them all to the game so long as you consider that this isn't a world like ours.
The gods ARE real, their manifestations occur in game often, and whatever distinctions you identify as ABSOLUTELY VITAL to making sure your view of the universe is included in the settings may cost strangers thousands of hours of their donated time to manifest for you in the game.
If you do that, I'll do my best to consider your positions earnestly.
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The point is Atheism is NOT the "proper" term, and Misotheism, having the correct definition, would be appropriate to use as a replacement.
YES it is, within Yliakum. PlaneShift is a simulation, therefore the word is used as a SYMBOL not an IDEA. You are correct in your definition of the IRL meanings of the ideas, but the IRL meanings do not apply here.
Why? Do you know of any?
No. But I know a joke when I hear one. Come down off the hobby horse, we have more fun down here, and the grand cause of the atheists can survive an off-reference in one game... thousands of other ideas have survived similar treatment within simulations over the years.
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No. But I know a joke when I hear one.
Apparently you don't. ;D
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All the arguments for keeping atheism are rather silly. It was alright to redefine atheism before we thought of just using the proper term but, if there is one, why not use it? Besides the tedious work it would entail, of course. I say change it. The few people who go "huh?" now, due to the change will be worth the thousands fewer who go "Sweet, I can be an atheist" without actually reading what PS's definition of it is later. As for foreign people being more familiar with "Atheism" than "Misotheism", just define it in CC.
"We have our own definition of Atheism" is a poor excuse for not using the real world proper term. One might be wise to remember we're using a real world language after all.
But do what you want, as I'm sure you would have had I not said that :P
The real world doesn't have Klyros, Kormi, or Kadaikos...
But the real world does have atheists, unlike Yliakum. And if Kormi meant high class stripper in English I doubt we'd use it the way we do in PS :P
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If we follow that logic we need to change "kikiri" back to "chicken". Lot of work for not much benefit, IMHO. Especially considering that everyone knows exactly what is implied by atheism, even if the nuances of the application of the idea to Yliakum take some getting used to.
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It wouldn't bother me if you change it but what are you going to call those people who just do not care about the gods. Why do you have to call people anything? make the option in CC "follow no god" instead of pigeon holing people inappropriately. God fearing Yliakis will just call them nuts anyway. If I heard someone say "you misotheist" in game or out I'd just look at them funny and discount anything further they had to say as the utterances of a pretentious fool.
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Since this is clearly headed downward I am locking this.
We'll take it under consideration.