PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xillix Queen of Fools on July 21, 2009, 04:06:14 pm
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So people are arguing about too much disruption or too snooty rp players. What say you?
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First vote. \o/
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We'll be interested in learning what the community finds disruptive, whether or not these actions have been deemed against the game policies, so please provide examples if you can along with your comments. Thank you.
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From what little I've seen it seems that sometimes the problem is that there is some disagreement about whether an action was legit or not ( ie godmodding and misuse of ooc info ) . Perhaps putting some "rules" for rp within the game's help tab would help with this... ( for those who dont want to stop and search the forums for a legit reference )
example:
player1 is sick
players2,3 and 4 are rping as healers lets say
player5 comes along and decides to surround the sick player will a protective aura for magical energy that makes the player impervious to all damage while healing him ... blah blah blah..
players 2,3 and 4 are now left standing there with nothing further to do
example:
player1 is known ooc as a bad guy - perhaps he has an online banner or something
player2 acts as if player1 is a vbad guy without any ic reason
This second example will not be intuitive to new players. The whole concept of allowing your player to be *dumb* or *uninformed* and vulnerable is very counter intuitive at first.
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What about those who overtly refuse to roleplay on laanx and talk casually like we're in their living room?
Or people who blatantly defy in character laws in the presence of guards?
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What about those who overtly refuse to roleplay on laanx and talk casually like we're in their living room?
Or people who blatantly defy in character laws in the presence of guards?
This is how the "you have been struck down by Laanx" mechanic should work imo.
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Perhaps...
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Ok try a different approach.
I see this as two separate issues, yes the solution is the same for both, and that would be. Give GMs more freedom in dealing with both issues, could be a quiet word [tells] offering advice if wanted, or friendly warning in case of disruptive.
Now grey area is what is disruptive or snooty RP. in most cases I think we can all agree this should be left up to the GM/s in game at the time, as I do not think we can all agree what is and what is not, as we all have our own way of Role Playing.
Example of what I do not like.
Is players dropping things by or close to players RPing, but it might just be part of there RP for all I know.
Players sending you /tells or in main "Do you mind we are RPing here, go away or I will call a GM. [No excuse for this one if all you are doing is stood there watching what is going on]
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Once my character Orgonwukh was arrested for drawing weapons in Kada-El's (which was perfect for me).
I called a GM for arrestment for exactly the same situations several times, where players drew weapons inside city walls, but the players were not arrested. In my opinion those players should be warned OOCly. If they refuse to sheath weapons, their chars should be imprisoned or killed by a guard, depending on their history and/or situation.
There were several situations where people talked OOCly in main tab. I usual ask nicely (so I hope) to use brackets, use /tell or use /group. Sometimes players refuse and start ranting about "stupid roleplayers", even offend you sometimes. I would like to see such behaviour being punished by banning (they should be allowed to join ezpcusa though).
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/me starts to say something then gets distracted by the picture on Xillix's profile...BS?
Sorry, was the question, people who are disruptive to RP's or people who are disruptive IN their RPs?
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Either. Both.
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I went for this as not moderated enough, as this seems to be about behavior rather than RP style. Bad behavior should always be addressed. Nobody should have their play experience dampened, if at all possible.
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A couple of examples of when more moderation would have been nice.
Example 1 - players are gathering on the plaza for the start of a GM event. PLayer A is standing with two weapons in hand. Player B points out that drawn weapons aren't allowed in the city. Player A refuses to put away his weapons claiming he is a licensed bouncer and he can have his weapons drawn at any time. Big argument follows. Since there were guard close by it would have been nice for them to either make player A put away his weapons or let everyone else know that Player A was allowed to have his weapons out.
Example 2 - Players are standing o the grass in front of Harn's. PLayer A has weapons drawn. Player B asks Player A to put his weapons away pointing out the law. Player refuses to put his weapons away claiming he is allowed because he is in a guild war and his enemies may attack him at any moment. After some back and forth arguments player B ends up leaving the area fed up by play A's actions.
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Hm. Well, I probably would be more understanding to people who are roleplaying their distruptiveness, over people who are just being disruptive period.
For example, the stand off between House Cheshire and Klyros Junction yesterday (my time) in front of the entrance to the arena. That was somewhat disruptive roleplay, but no more than say a picket line in front of garbage disposal areas. I can respect that disruption of not being able to complete a quest, if I am aware of what's going on. For all I know, it could just very well be two different guilds standing around, not a picket line. However, what was annoying about that was that characters who were not involved in the confrontation, were also not allowed in. This is the type of 'allowed' disruptive RP. I really can't think of one that shouldn't be allowed at this moment, but I'm sure someone else might be able to catch onto what I'm saying and provide an example.
People who are being disruptive, outside of roleplay, I tolerate less. For instance, players who run into Kada-Els with weapons drawn, and even though you mention, in brackets, that it's common courtesy to sheath weapons in the tavern, they still refuse to do so. And then proceed to propose marriage to the character (true story). What was unique about this situation, was that the player had been told, not even moments earlier, by the Hydlaa guards, to sheath his weapons in the city. Ignorance and just not knowing the rules are understandable, We've all been there before. But refusing to listen on more than one account is blatant disregard, and probably should be punished.
In terms of whether or not these things should be policed more, ask yourself what would happen if I did this in real life? Would the police be called? Then give or take a yes or no for medieval times (or at least what we think would happen during that time period). Would someone be thrown in prison for brandishing weapons in the city in a medieval time? Yes, that would be the least that happened. Remember, people have been beheaded for less in those days.
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My personal experience is in players trying to RP their disruptiveness but not knowing when to stop forcing their RP on others. I.E. a character with an obnoxious personality or is doing things not allowed in the city (like killing) that just won't go away, even when you ask them RPly and OOCly. Many understand that you have to stay in character, but they feel that as long as they are in character, there are no other rules to follow. They start being inconsiderate in both their RP and OOCly. And then there are those that when I tried to calmly explain to them why there was a problem with them hanging around, they go get in a huff and acting like I was suppose to tolerate them for as long as they choose regardless of whether or not I had my own RP going at the time. I have a tendency to be pretty relaxed about letting people interrupt my RP and I will go along with a pretty wide variety of stuff but I am getting tired of the people that think the whole of the game revolves around them and exists to cater to them. None of us even pay for this game. ::)
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Okay, since you asked...a short list of what just comes to my mind there.
- OOC talking in main chat or auction without any brackets, no matter if at the platinum mines, Kada El's or anywhere else. We have tells, guildchat and groups for such conversations. Nothing wrong with some casual OOC comments in brackets in main, but without brackets it's just annoying. And OOC talking includes for me the mentioning of weapon quality, skills modifications of weapons or everything about the player not the character.
- Using Guildchat or tells to call for OOC help. We have /shout to get the attention of people near, but calling guild mates from distant maps is just stupid. Soon you are surrounded by a whole guild who make any RP impossible, just because of a small problem you had with one of them.
- People playing versions of themselves in game. This usually only leads to upset players because of actions of other characters against their own character, followed by long OOC arguments. The problem with this is that it's hard to notice sometimes. I don't really think any player wants any harm to another player OOCly and it's not nice to be accused of this just because ones character tried to mug another. Or if others assume the views of a character are the same as of the player.
- Creating guilds without any IC purpose or even violating the settings.
- People who ignore the settings. There are no dragons...no matter how much I would like it.
- People who ignore the surroundings, like NPCs or water for example. No guard would just watch if you mug someone right in front of him/her.
- Duels just for fun without any intention to play out the consequences. Such things can be done in the appropriate areas like the wildness or the arena, but for sure it should not be done within a city or a frequently populated places like the mines.
- Using OOC information in game with a character. Sure, it's simple to say in which guild Aiwendil is. Just look at my signature. But this shouldn't have any influence on how a character deals with Aiwendil. In general I would say that it is annoying to deal with people who can't see a difference between IC and OOC.
- People who think game mechanics are the only thing that makes a good game. It will never be possible to include every action one could do in the game mechanics. And telling people they can't RP a bow or being a tailor because the game mechanics doesn't allow it is disruptive.
- Creation of alts just to mess up with other characters and then abandoning those alts before they have to face any consequences. Or the switching of alts just because another character of a player would fit much better in the situation than the played currently char.
- Characters who got killed in a RP and show up at the "crime"-scene after a 5 minute trip again while the other players around still roleplay the incident. I don't want to start a discussion if the DR is too short or for how long characters should stay there. But people should at least have enough tactfulness to understand that showing up 5 minutes after getting killed at the same place is disturbing for those player who witnessed the incident and are still there.
- People who demand others to entertain them. Sure, it's a game and everyone should have fun. But not everyone has always the time to play with someone. Most characters are involved in some RP plots and it's necessary sometimes to go one with another plot. And getting complains about not doing ones usual business (for example selling crafted weapons) can be a bit annoying.
- Godmodding. Seeing the signature of someone in the forum and then using it in game by saying ones character is a master in lah'ar. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with using skills that are not implemented yet. But please play it out in game and don't use them as reasons to use OOC information. Or playing chars who are master in everything. Or forcing actions on others...every player can only decide what his character does, not the success, influence, reactions on others.
- Bashing of other because they don't speak English fluently.
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Goodness Aiwendil.... Your short is a bit long. ;D ;)
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Definitely interested in what people who think the server is too strictly moderated think also.
It is the rp server after all.
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For the moment, I don't particularly care about all the default things that come to mind, weapons drawn, obnoxious ppls lol'ing, etc.
The problem I often have with the RP server is far less with the newer characters that don't know wtf they're doing. I can tolerate them, they amuse me OOCly and I've no problem giving them a helpful tidbit of advice. The problem I have with the RP server is the so-called "RPers" not all, certainly not, but the ones who've been around a while, the ones who know settings, and the ones who break them.
For example in the recent magic thread I brought up, UtM explained how performing made up spells by the player was in fact breaking settings. But it seems whenever I go in and around the tavern, I get someone using necromancy to animate the monster they made out of ice (from thin air, mind) then the necromanced ice-monster uses Azure Way to blow me around a bit and kick my arse, followed by summoning up dragons of flame that consume me and I die. The fact that this is considered 'acceptable' by the majority it seems is what the problem is here. Because then the one spoilsport (me) would be disrupting their RP by reporting the behaviour.
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Excessive extra-mechanical rp defined by most as god modding can be considered disruptive and violates rules against fighting within city limits also.
Remember I still haven't seen the results so... Keep voting, get your friends to, make your voice heard.
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I voted not moderated enough.
using brackets for minor main OOC, and then using /group or /tell for OOC chatter is not a complicated concept. It's easy. If your new and don't know better, fine, but one should easily be able to learn quickly....like within the first or second time in-game.
To me, it feels one has to conciously choose not to use use brackets for limited main OOC, and /tell /group /guild for all the rest of OOC.....which quickly falls into blatant disregard if one chooses often enough.
In-game GM presence with an active IC guard would be nice.......but GMs are limited and busy. perhaps instead of dumping everything on GameMasters...there could be some type of voluntary...monitored...GameModerators. With zero tolerance for abuse. Perhaps complaints could be initially handled by a panel of GameModerators, and if a resolution can't be reached...then things could move up to GameMasters for a final decision...?
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I voted not enough moderation. Aiwendil's post pretty much covers the things that irk me (and then some XD).
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Different types of problems need different responses:
- Breaking the law; that should be punished, and theoretically could be done through mechanics (saving GMs time). No player punishment here, only character punishment.
- Breaking the rules of the game (disrupting); that does need to be addressed by GMs, as a priority, and punishment may be applied if disrupting is clearly intended.
- Lousy RP. Well, I won't report someone because he used my name before we met, or because he says things like Q254. That's no crime, and certainly not worth wasting the time of a GM.
- Conflicts of styles (as in Illysia's examples) are the ones that should constitute the most interesting, and difficult, part of GM arbitration.
About the poll, I'm no GM and have no clue about what they actually do. If there is a lot of disruption going on, then it looks like there isn't enough moderation; yet, if the GMs manage to deal with every /report they receive, there isn't much more to expect. When the game will work fine, I'm sure they'll have time and fun arbitrating dilemmas, but in the mean time, they can't police everything. Players have to be patient; they have to expect loopholes, inconsistencies, and deal with them themselves as much as possible. Sorry Aiwendil, but a lot of things in your tiny list are not GM material. Well, I'm going to vote "strict enough" then, because the moderation is probably adapted to the demand (including extra efforts when the level of complain rises).
One more thing: how about a thread dedicated to reporting disruption? No complains, just facts, so it can be used as a disruptometre. I do mean general disruption, or lawlessness, not private arguments and RP conflicts. Just the place and GMT time, no names, and a short line like "6 guys fighting with weapons and spells", or "a kran running in circles while shouting loooool". Maybe GMs would have a use for it.
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I voted not strict enough. Not becuase i think the rules aren't clear enough but I do feel like we still run into things that require a guard and at some times there are way to many people talking OOCly in main. I mean a few comments shouldn't be a ban but a group of people near Harnquist having a whole conversation about OOC stuff is just annoying.
I have read Aiwendils list and agee with most of it, but if the GMs should step in at all of them on a regular basis I'm not sure. Using OOC stuff ICly for example is sometimes a fine line. Was a voice muffled enough not to be recognizable? Did the disguise really disguise everything? If you aren't carefull both players who disagree will report the other for godmodding.
The first one becuase the other is rolepllaying the perfect disguise that is impossible to see through eventhough his description has holes. The second one becuase the other is using OOC glasses to recognize someone who used a perfectly good disguise.
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I think there needs to be a way to report to the guards IC so that even when there is no GM to play them at the moment, when a GM does get on they can investigate and deal with certain activities (ie people who chronically wield they weapons in public). and staying on that topic, i think weapons in front of harnquists are fine, as smiths may want to show other smiths their work IC. however, if someone attacks another there, then they should be arrested. and duels without a reason other than just 2 characters who love combat should only take place in the wild or in the arena. it should be assumed that fights inside city walls (primarily hydlaa's) are from arguments. in Ojaveda, i like there being a little lawlessness, as it creates a different atmosphere, kinda like a wild west sort of theme, so i'd expect more people policing themselves there IC.
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That last is a good idea imo, we'll look into it.
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#1 thing that irks me...
Prejudging character's or players based on their guild choices and other OOC info. I can't tell you how many times "good RPers" have refused to roleplay with me because Vannaka was a member of the prophets of chaos for a while. It's funny, but the exact same people are more than happy to roleplay with alts of mine.
I also voted not strict enough, however I feel the need to point out that this poll will never get good results. There is a big difference between the forum population and the game population... I think if this poll were taken by everyone online at some time the results would be a lot more even.
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#1 thing that irks me...
Prejudging character's or players based on their guild choices and other OOC info. I can't tell you how many times "good RPers" have refused to roleplay with me because Vannaka was a member of the prophets of chaos for a while. It's funny, but the exact same people are more than happy to roleplay with alts of mine.
I also voted not strict enough, however I feel the need to point out that this poll will never get good results. There is a big difference between the forum population and the game population... I think if this poll were taken by everyone online at some time the results would be a lot more even.
Vannaka, it wasn't just your guild... I've RPed with you before, and I've heard plenty of complaints about you before. Their decisions were justified.
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Vannaka, it wasn't just your guild... I've RPed with you before, and I've heard plenty of complaints about you before. Their decisions were justified.
I think you're mistaken. If you have roleplayed with me before (I don't know who your characters are, so am not sure) then you never said anything to me about how I roleplay. You also may have roleplayed with a Vannaka clone, seeing as some players were kind enough to make alts with very similar names, and run around acting like idiots. In an effort to disagree without starting a flame war... could you PM what it is that I've done that you don't think would be considered "good" roleplay?
I think most who have actually taken the time to play with me would agree that I do roleplay, and do a good job of it. I've even had a peek inside that little circle of "elite" roleplayers, when helping out Garris with roleplays using some of my alts.
Disclaimer: No I don't actually believe there are "elite roleplayers," I only believe some people think of themselves in this way.
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Edit: Oh, nevermind
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I think you're mistaken.
I think you're trying to mistake us.
Now before you monopolize the thread with your personal enquiries nobody cares about I'll take it back on topic.
Definitely interested in what people who think the server is too strictly moderated think also.
The people who think it's too strictly moderated are not likely to post here and not likely to vote, glad some managed to. One shouldn't expect them to write here considering they hardly write in-game.
Aiwendil's list pretty much covers everything.
I've voted not moderated enough. As for the reasons, see here: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35576.msg407674#msg407674
Summarized in a couple of lines: More moderation will in my opinion improve the situation as far as such moderation is taken to practice over explicit sets of rules (the same way it is done now, but with the right sets to go about this). Having it done with no rules will lead to endless arguements about fairness and favoritism.
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I have vote not moderated enough. Not for all of the listed reasons, though many are on point. Most of which can be worked out in time. What I refer to is the outgoing attempts to purposely disrupt those that RP, or are doing so in a OSP RP area. I have been hanging around the Stine Head for two days and so far I have seen 4 such characters. After being repeatedly asked to stop both IC and OOC and several /Tells they continued to act in this manner. Either with action or chat. One said character extended that period for over 30 mins. To me thats Disruption All these characters went out of their way to destroy the setting and efforts of those in the area. With no other intention. But, to do actually that. This does upset me. The OSP areas are staffed by people putting a lot of work and effort into them to make them work. To harass them just because you can is unfair and VERY not right. If a stricter moderation is to be looked into. I would suggest these areas be considered FIRST, for the purpose of TESTING that consideration. At least if it was to be known that it is enforced in these areas then the rest would start falling in place on it own.
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I have vote not moderated enough. Not for all of the listed reasons, though many are on point. Most of which can be worked out in time. What I refer to is the outgoing attempts to purposely disrupt those that RP, or are doing so in a OSP RP area. I have been hanging around the Stine Head for two days and so far I have seen 4 such characters. After being repeatedly asked to stop both IC and OOC and several /Tells they continued to act in this manner. Either with action or chat. One said character extended that period for over 30 mins. To me thats Disruption All these characters went out of their way to destroy the setting and efforts of those in the area. With no other intention. But, to do actually that. This does upset me. The OSP areas are staffed by people putting a lot of work and effort into them to make them work. To harass them just because you can is unfair and VERY not right. If a stricter moderation is to be looked into. I would suggest these areas be considered FIRST, for the purpose of TESTING that consideration. At least if it was to be known that it is enforced in these areas then the rest would start falling in place on it own.
I think this would be a good idea... and maybe toss kada's in with the moderated areas... the places with the most problems are places where enough people congregate for the people behaving badly to get attention. So, if you watch the populations centers, you should be able to catch a lot of the troublemakers. As for the people being a pain at the Stonehead, they do like to just be general pests there... And several people being pests can come through in a single night. A lot of the time I try to be patient and work with them... but from now on I will be finding the nearest GM because people are getting too comfortable acting up in there.
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/me was here.
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utm is the 51rst voter, is that like the 29th bather at all?
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I have chosen "not moderated enough"
As a player (recent one, I must say, as I have started in end of May/beginning of June), playing around 12GMT, I have never met any GM in game and it is often there is none online at the moment I usually play. I have experienced some troublemakers at the tavern, and sometimes I don't know how to handle them, because as a rule, they don't even reply to IC or OOC questions, continuing only to play fools around. It is not too worrying for RP, as the tavern is often empty at this moment (my shift is rather calm), but it doesn't incitate newbies wandering around to come and take the good path RPing.
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More moderation needed.
Let's not forget what we are all doing here. We are not just playing a game, we are helping to create that game.
I can see the need to 'experiment' in game, to find out what we can, can't, and want to do. We are 'lab rats' in the Dev teams (albeit fun) maze, and deliberately disruptive players are contributing nothing! They simply stop us (the players) from helping the Dev team and I, for one, don't want to see the day that PS is given up as a bad job.
Now, we know that NPC guards are little more than decoration, but surely they can be used. Why can't I go to a guard and have a conversation along the lines of:
Me: I want to report someone
Guard: Who do you want to report?
Me: <insert disruptive player name>
Guard: What did they do?
Me: <brief description of event>
Guard: We'll look into it.
This would give the GMs a list of potentially disruptive players, who could then be watched to see what they were actually doing.
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You forgot:
3. Snorks
4. Smurfs
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/petition
Use it. That is what it is there for.
If you feel the need to call for the guards, follow these three simple steps:
1. Check to see if there is a GM online by using /who Game Master. This is important. If there are no GMs online, calling for the guards would be useless, as none would be able to come, and it would make them look inept and unrealistic. Try to think of an RP reason you would not call for the guards. If there is a GM online, proceed to step two.
2. Write a /petition. Example: /petition This is an RP request for a guard to show up. I am in the Kada's being assaulted by [name], and am about to shout for the guards. Thanks ahead of time if you can respond.
3. /shout Guards! Help!
If there are no GMs online at the time, walk over to the nearest NPC authority and 'tell' them what happened with a /petition. Example: /petition I was in Kada's being assaulted by Billy (or use this if you do not know what the name is IC [description of Billy]) at 10:00PM GM. I am filling out a report with <NPC guard name> now. Thank you for investigating this.
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3. /shout Guards! Help!
If there are no GMs online at the time, walk over to the nearest NPC authority and 'tell' them what happened with a /petition. Example: /petition I was in Kada's being assaulted by Billy (or use this if you do not know what the name is IC [description of Billy]) at 10:00PM GM. I am filling out a report with <NPC guard name> now. Thank you for investigating this.
I take this step as way to stay oneself ic, because shouting this helps exactly nothing in making the others stop whatever they do. (Apart from that are there situations that I can't see as ic in the least and to those I thus can't react ic)
I wonder what gms can do after they received a petition that was made lets say an hour ago? They don't have any proof of that something went wrong...
Sen
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No proof?
Not even with "/report"?
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In the meaning of that report only covers said things in best case.
Sen
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If you've told an NPC guard then the GM's can act as if you reported details directly to them or that the guard has passed on the report for investigation
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I find the advice to /who Game Master to be less than completely useful. It will not definitively tell you if a GM is online as they can and do wander around invisible/undetectable. Perhaps a command could be made such as /gm which would indicate whether a gm class account was on line but not which one(s) to preserve the gms' ability to act unfettered by constant demands. This would aid players in deciding which report approach best to take.
I have not voted in the poll as I do not have any basis to decide which to choose.
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We're propping up efforts to make sure there is sufficient IC policing of disruptive activities without diminishing the fun.
Attention seeking dueling or rp battling should sort itself out beyond the city walls, if you can't get people to follow to watch you, consider it a hint that your activities aren't particularly entertaining.