PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: muffinnn on May 07, 2003, 07:42:19 am
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Magical dialect : Language used by a wizard to give magical properties !
WEll, after reading a post where an admin pointed out that a blacksmith could want to play his whole game collecting items, making them, selling, trading and so on, i though, what if the same could be applied to arcane related activities...
What do i mean is this :
let\'s say we have a sorcerer, wizard which wanna learn a spell, any spell. Either he can be told how, he can read how to do it, but later on, after becoming master of the arcana art, he might be able to make some spells on his own. Now, how could he make a spell... well believe it would be based upon the wizards knowledge of the magical dialect.
Developpers could create such a language. And the wizards would have to learn how a spell work to use it, no more easy spell learning. Arcane schools could also get an use there for teaching. one could work as a teachers, researchers etc.
Another good point that i see is that it would be more involving to play a wizard that way. And by creating such a dialect at the source, none would be able to cheat it.
suggestions on how any spells could base it\'s efficiency on the character level :
1- Character MUST know the spell.
2- intelligence can affect the % of time the spell can work. sometimes it will, sometimes it won\'t.
3- character LEVEL could also affect the % of time a spell work but also the amount of damage a spell can do at MAX.
etc
i think stats for any spell known should be available to the player anytime and that the more you use a spell, the more PROeFicient with it you become.
i\'d be really happy if people could post their opinions, good or bad. no need for flaming though, anything constructive is welcome.
Peace :)
Muffinnn
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sounds nice :)
...problem: it can get pretty hard to type the whole spell everytime, plus it would be usually to late and those players that aren\'t very good a t typing would get killed three times before they would finish typing the spell.
....solvation?: you can type it in the spellbook by yourself and either run it from the spellbook (clicking on it), or asiginig it an alias (eg. \"foo\" alias \"Zinghar\'t ThoroGroth\'ng) or even buttons/slots that would remember a limited number of spells (a bit like in neverwinter nights)
(of course you can still type by yourself, it\'s just an adjacant method)
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i have been liking to see a game that features this. wuld be cool to see!
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well, that becomes an area of discussion as well. I am not sure how many people out there have played FASA\'s Earthdawn, but they use a matrix in which the magical entity needs to attune their spell. Each Matrix holds only one spell, so to become a true master you need more than 3 matrices. This would solve the problem of trying to type the spell in each time by making the player attune his spells each time he wants to use a new spell.
As far as researching spells goes, keep in mind that this is not a pen-and-paper game where the rules are decided by the carbon based life-forms that breath. This game is dictated by the carbon life-forms that the air-breaths have made. That being said there will only be as many spells as the developers feel like putting in. I for one would like to see a formula based spell system that is unique to each character that wants to learn the mystical ways. It would be nice to know that the spell for my fireball will contain completely different components than Joe\'s down the street.
In Asheron\'s Call, all spells are of the same basic components with personal tapers in them. These tapers are a means of attuning the spell to your specific character. This is nice, but everyone can learn all the spells simply by watching the words that others speak. This makes learning the spells too easy and the magic system becomes a wasted effort.
Dolch
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abit of topic but i would love to see books writen in different lanuages as the moonrunes u find in the hobbit or the old tongue from the wheel of time series....
!!! AL ELLISANDE!!!
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Has anyone read Rick Cook: Wizardry?
Something like a spell-programming-language would be needed. But something VERY simple (It is not even need to be related to any programming). With this, you can make your own spells. Of course, I suggest, some level of experience should be needed to be able to use different commands for spell creation. This would make wizard roles more difficult of course - but HEY, a wizard\'s life IS DIFFICULT! This would make only those play wizard roles, who really seem fit for it - others go hack\'n\'slash!
Predefined spells are too boring. There is no \"Role Playing\" in that...
If the NPCs can respond to real sentences THAT YOU WRITE, not only to some predefined crap, then why would this spell-language be a problem?
I say: this MUST be done!!!
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Greetings,
E.
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Oh, and about spell-storing:
That\'s what the wizard\'s book is for!
You \"develop\" your spells, when you have the time (in the city for example), and write them to your book - then you just select it at a fight!
Again: MUST BE DONE - THIS WOULD BE AWESOME!!!!!!!!!
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Greetings,
E.
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this spell \"programming\"/developping idea is great ...it\'s probably a bit harder to implement, but it\'s a very inovative idea and i like it :D
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i had a similar idea but i first tried to create spell making system. i agree this is a great idea but concentrate on HOW it would be done.
or that\'s devs job...
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It\'s a great idea, and I don\'t think it\'s that hard to implement either if you\'ve played that great classic called \"Master of Magic\". It had a spell-researching system that could be adapted to PS\'s needs: you\'d start out with a spell book full of gibberish, and as you invested more mana into research, each of these phrases would turn into a usable spell over time. It also had an item enchanting system where you\'d invest gold and mana into enchanting a base item (weapons, ...).
The both of them could be combined in PS : over time, as you invest \"something\" (what that something is I\'m not exactly sure) into research you could learn different phrases in the magical dialect. However a single phrase would be useless, something like \"+5 to\"; only when you learn the phrases for \"add\", \"defense\" and \"target=self\" could you make a spell to boost your own defense by 5 points. The making of the spell and the casting of the spell would require additional investments (not necessarily of the same resource). There could also be a skill system involved in the making of spells: low level wizzards can only combine a few components into a spell whereas higher level wizzards can create more elaborate spells.
There could also be a system that decides which components can be used to make a spell, so as to avoid illogical combinations: e.g. \"instant death\" cannot combine with \"ressurection\".
Moraudin
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If happy of the warm welcome this idea got! I think elminster\'s post reflected most of my idea for those who didn\'t understood my primary post. Now, since it\'s an open project, anybody can help developping the game. I do have some c++ experience and am willing to invest time coding, even if i don\'t have much of it free(sick!).
First, let\'s say it is some idea we could apply to any class of character. Let it be fighter, rogue, wizard, monk. Each of those need to learn their respective skills which, for now, are given with level acquisition. For exemple, a fight could learn his moves: by experiencing by himself or by being thaugh how to. I remember the game \"die by the sword\" where the character could make a whole lot of specific moves, some of which where really wicked!, by using the keypadnumbers. Each number was refering to a movment dirrection so a character could use his own sword the way he wanted. I\'d say that before the movment become fluid, he need to practice alot !!! again there is the armor weight, weapon weight, etc. One\'s character should be able to develop the ability to lift more weight as time goes on and as he\'s been lifting some weight near his weight lifting limit... etc. Let\'s say that way he would develop his muscles with \"efforts\" through \"time\".
Now about a spell language. I need some ideas on how you would like to see it become. I mean, what do you feel your character must learn to say a spell. I think part of a spell should be obvious and part should be irrelevant, hidden, unknown, etc. In this game we also have schools of magic in which the character can be \"born\" proficient. I think those school and the amount of focus\"points\" you put in each specific area, should enabled all the school specific magic keywords for a character, not the other keywords for other classes. Therefor, one who his proficient in blue and death could learn those spells by himself but, to learn other spells outside of them, he would need to relly on other party help(teaching but not necessarily from books because it would allow to many cheats but we could get rid of most of those cheats i think).
The way i currently see it :
A- -> those would refer to the school/god of magic and the server or the client side would use it to check if the user as the keywords enabled to use it. One or more schools are usabled i think up to some kink of max.
B- \"now the hard part!!!\"
1)here the user should specify which components of the world/magic he wanna use in his spells. -> only server would check if he can use thoses.
2)after that, the wizard whould need to specify how he want to manipulate thoses forces, what he want to do with them! This is where i would put any type of locking based on the user level/experience and on the user use of specific forces manipulations! -> both client and server side checks.
3)his spell closing in which he would also give a spell name. -> server side check only.
C- not yet sure what to put in there. suggestions?
Of course, everything in those areas would be working with sentences but the checking would be done with keywords. That way a user could use his own language to create the effects he wants!
This system would work well as a sub-class of a more general character class and it would be alot of work!!! but i think it worth it.
what you think ?
muf
P.S.: Sorry for any spelling mistake
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I think this entire idea could work out pretty well. Just make a different word for each part of the spell. Such as a word for each element, words for different ranges and durations, targets, etc. It probably wouldnt be all that hard to program either, not that I know much about programming.
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Hi!
Good ideas have been discussed here, I\'ll try to help a bit.
A way to \"build\" a spell language would be to have words, that you put in a sentence, and that makes a spell. I think most people agree with that.
Now the details: my idea is that each \"word\" has an index, like \"5\" or \"6\". Like diablo II\'s runes. Now, the most important the indexes of the words in the sentence are, the most powerful the spell with be.
And, some words would have special effects:
- if placed in the sentence
- if placed at the beginning at the sentence
- if placed at the end...
- if placed before another specific word
Etc.
Here is an implementation example:
Let\'s say every spell has a number, telling how powerful it is. Let\'s call this number P.
Let\'s say every rune index is I.
Now here is the formula:
P = ((Sum of all I) + A) * B + C
Initially, A and C values are 0, B value is 1.
Runes effects can increase (or decrease, maybe) either A, B, or C.
- if C is increased, it is an absolute addition. It is added after every calculation have been applied.
- if B is increased, basic rune power (I) is multiplied.
- if A is increased, it\'s the same that C, but it can be multiplied by B, so increasing A is *potentially* more powerful than increasing C.
For exemple, if i have all words from 1 to 5, and that i have these rules:
- ending the word with 5: B+1
- having the sequence 1,2,3 in the sentence: A+10
- having the runes 2 and 4 in the word: C+10
Let\'s say i\'m a wizard that can do 5-words sentences.
What can i do? My first thought would be to use the most powerful rune (5), five times:
5 5 5 5 5 -> P is (5+5+5+5+5 + 0)*(1+1) + 0 = 50
But if i think about it, i can replace some 5 be 2 or 4 so as to get a bonus:
2 4 5 5 5 -> P is (2+4+5+5+5 + 0)*(1+1) + 10 = 52
What if i try to use the 1,2,3 sequence?
1 2 3 5 5 -> P is (1+2+3+5+5 + 10)*(1+1) + 0 = 52
Another solution:
1 2 3 4 5 -> P is (1+2+3+4+5 + 10)*(1+1) + 10 = 60
You can add other rules, like \"if there are 3 numbers with the same difference (like 4, 5, 6 or 2, 8, 14...)\"...
With this \"game\" of special effect rules, you can quickly build normally powerful spells, but if you think 10 minutes you\'ll get a more powerful one.
Now, words could tell whether the spell is a \"blue\" or \"red\" spell, if it is aimed at the enemy or at an ally, and so on. This could be told by the last word, or the first word, as it has been said earlier.
I made several tries, and I found that with easy rules, you can build spells between a \"powerfullness\" of 20 and... 350. But I had to try several sentences so as to get the 350. And i found it amusing.
The sorcerer could have to learn words, by visiting special temples for example. And the number of word he can use in a sentence could increase with the level (like 1 at lvl1, 2 at lvl2, 3 at lvl4, 4 at lvl8, and so on... at lvl50 you could have 6 words with this simple rule)
Sorry for the spelling, I\'m French ;)
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I, too, find this idea very interesting. It seems like in some games, wizards can be really powerful with spells like area of affect and ranged spells. For instance, a fighter encounters 5 enemies, and he has to engage them all individually (or maybe with some special multi-attack), and even an experienced character can take a little while to fight them off. An experienced mage would just press a couple keys to select the right spell and *boom* all the enemies are dead.
If you had a system where you had to use words to cast spells, it could balance out game difficulty a little bit. Of course, the spell book is a great idea, but it should be limited in some ways. A great way to do it might be that it could only hold a maximum number of *words*. So players would have to choose whether they wanted to store, say, 10 easier spells, or 3 really complicated, but powerful, spells. It sure would add a lot of strategy!
It would also be great, because then you wouldn\'t have all these high level mages running around casting the same spell, because it\'s the best in the game. And with a word based system, you can be ready for anything. You\'d likely have some spells that would be good against everything, but there should be some words that are very specific.
So say you\'re walking along and you notice some goblins coming toward you. Now you\'ve got a decent spell lined up in your book, but since it\'ll take a little while for them to get to you, you can cook up something extra special. So you think of some good words that correspond to some goblin-effective magic, and you cast a really cool spell that does maximum damage.
I could keep going on, but if I do this post will be too long to read ;)
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I only write, so the thread won\'t die out. Please, newbies, new people, read through the thread and post what you feel about this.
I also hope the developers read this, as this is brilliant idea, and I think the spell casting MUST be done this (or similar) way.
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Greetings,
E.
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whoa, this is confusing...i have no idea what some of this means so im gonna try and suggest sumthing(may of been mentiond b4) for the thing where casting needs u to type 5 numbers, what if each number ment something
ie- 11139=fire balls
1)the first number is the element of the spell, in this case, 1=fire
2)the 2nd number is the area of the spell, from 1-9 would be how much area the spell would cover. 1 would hit 1 monster where 9 would make a huge area attack
3)this would be the type of spell:1 could mean attack, 2 could mean healing, 3 could mean protection
4)the impact of the spell, if the number before this meant heal, and this number was 1 it would do a reguler heal, but if this number was 9 it would ressurect someone. If the following number meant attack, 1 could mean a small 1hit attack, but 9 would mean a multi-hit combo
5)this would be the power of the spell, a 1 would be a very weak spell maybe for finnishing off enemies but 9 would be the most powerful and magic consuming attack maybe used for killing uberdemon the great.
the more powerfull certain spells are, the longer it will take them to cast.
so heal could be 15218(this would heal a very good amount of HP(fire) over a medum sized area)
thunderstorm could be 37163(this would use lighting element in a large area as an attack 6times with low power)
sumthin like that would be cool and be faster than typing a phrase couse ud probably have to cast a few times and typing 12345 is easier than iwillnowcastanuberspelltokillallthemonstersinthisareawithmycoolmagic.
to help remember these combonations, you could carry around a spell book that has numbers of spells you\'ve used already or learned about, and what each number means.
well, tell me what you think, whether you think it might be too complicated or if it wouldnt work, or if u think it might be good
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Although this might make it easier, it doesn\'t improve rp\'ing. Instead of ppl saying \"And then I cast the most beatiful super-rainbow attack, blinding and sweeping away those foul beasts into the dark pits they came from\" they now would say \"I cast 13337\"
IMHO that isn\'t fun.
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well, maybe when you type the numbers of the spell, it will be replaced by the spell name so if you type 21342, it wont say 21342, it will say sumthin like \"i now call upon the powers of the earth so that they impale demons most foul!\" or \"earth spike!\"
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Originally posted by kcirbmab
well, maybe when you type the numbers of the spell, it will be replaced by the spell name so if you type 21342, it wont say 21342, it will say sumthin like \"i now call upon the powers of the earth so that they impale demons most foul!\" or \"earth spike!\"
I\'d like to see it the other way round. You type \"i now call upon the powers of the earth so that they impale demons most foul!\" and the the earth rocks and the daemons are blasted away. I think long magic spells are more roleplaying.
In every game you see the player pressing a key and the character starts whirling his hands and after a few seconds (while the player just watches!) the fireball flies. Why not replacing this watching time with typing time?
Wizards need protection against mighty enemys, this is a basic rule. The fighter must get the attention of the daemon until the powerful fireball of the wizard burns it.
An addition: I\'d like to see long term magical rituals. For example enchanting a sword is a 4 minute ritual, where the player has to spell and combine items. Calling the might uberdaemon of fire needs 3 hours, several items (pentagram, candles, ... a virgin?) and 10 wizards.
And a problem i see: Does this fit into the current magic structure (azure, red, blue, black ,...)? Or is this yet obsolete?
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I think this has to be definitely implemented. The following are some example situations (possible with this magic system) I belive will help making the game a great one.
- The mage may obtain just a part of the spell (maybe hearing it somewhere), and try to complete it.
- Wizards in the guild will teach the lower-level magicians the basic spells as they gain experience, so that the more powerful ones may be a well kept guild secret.
- Encountering a problem during the game with enough time to prepare a more appropriate spell (not only in combat, as the example with the goblins, but also when you need some spell in the middle of a quest in order to advance), and you take the time (and the risk) of casting a special one.
- etc.
All of these require, however, that the fact of combining words to create spells should be kind of \"risky\", at least for the more powerful ones. I mean, what happens if you combine, let\'s say \"fire\" with \"massive destruction\", and you forget to introduce something like \"self-protection\"? Right: Ka-Boom!! If there is no risk, everyone could find the more powerful spells (for his level) with no help. But i think that obtaining that help from other mages would be a very interesting part of the game (a very special spell could be as worthy as gold, and it would still have been the result of some player\'s imagination - and magic skill, of course -, not a predefined one).
Sorry if i took too long, i\'s just i think this idea is grat, and should be left out. (by the way, i think it could be easily implemented, too)
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I meant the idea is GREAT, and should NOT be left out
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Originally posted by Sergio
All of these require, however, that the fact of combining words to create spells should be kind of \"risky\", at least for the more powerful ones. I mean, what happens if you combine, let\'s say \"fire\" with \"massive destruction\", and you forget to introduce something like \"self-protection\"? Right: Ka-Boom!!
Yes, I had that in mind. If the wizard does not think carefully, then he may blow himself up instead of the moster :D
Originally posted by Sergio
If there is no risk, everyone could find the more powerful spells (for his level) with no help. But i think that obtaining that help from other mages would be a very interesting part of the game (a very special spell could be as worthy as gold, and it would still have been the result of some player\'s imagination - and magic skill, of course -, not a predefined one).
Yes. And although you obtain some words, or phrases, you may still not be able to use them, if you are not high-level enough.
Actually, this type of magic system was created in a Hungarian RPG: M.A.G.U.S. It was called: mosaic-magic, you had little parts (mosaics) and you constructed your spell of those.
Apparently, very few people played the wizards role, as it was really difficult! But hey, as I said, the wizards life is difficult!
I haven\'t played M.A.G.U.S much (never the wizard), but I have a rulebook, maybe I can look up this mosaic-magic to get some ideas.
Originally posted by Sergio
Sorry if i took too long, i\'s just i think this idea is grat, and should be left out. (by the way, i think it could be easily implemented, too)
The longer, the better! Keep the ideas coming!!!
Developers - say something. Sounds good or a waste?
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Greetings,
E.
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Originally posted by elminster
The longer, the better! Keep the ideas coming!!!
Exactly, Elminster :D
btw Sergio there is an edit button to correct mistakes. No need to post another time ;)
It is all depending on how many Wizards we want to have and i think this systems is good, because it favours only few powerful wizards. Then would be something really special, perhaps even mythical. I think it would be no problem, if a newbie does not understand at once how magic works.
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I\'m only posting again to bring this thread up, as I saw another was started. I think THIS idea should be pushed as hard as possible, as I think it is great. Post HERE.
So, \"newbies\", what do you think?
Read through from the beginning - it is long, I know... But it\'s worth it!!!
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Greetings,
E.
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i like the idea but the only down side is that stuff like this could be hell on us dislexic people
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Originally posted by LordSpyder
i like the idea but the only down side is that stuff like this could be hell on us dislexic people
What do you mean?
BTW, again I encourage people to think about this idea, so that together, we can put something UNIQUE into this already wonderful project.
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Greetings,
E.
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magical language i like, especially if it was pretty smart if u know what i mean, with lots of punes or play on words :D
(It\'s an old magical principle -- it\'s even filtered down into RPG systems -- that magic, while taking a lot of effort, can be \'stored\' -- in a staff, for example. No doubt a wizard spends a little time each day charging up his staff, although you go blind if you do it too much, of course.)
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Originally posted by Skain
It\'s an old magical principle -- it\'s even filtered down into RPG systems -- that magic, while taking a lot of effort, can be \'stored\' -- in a staff, for example. No doubt a wizard spends a little time each day charging up his staff, although you go blind if you do it too much, of course.
Hey, I didn\'t even thought of this, but now that you mention...
Spells would be stored in SpellBooks, BUT it would be possible to \"cast\" them into a staff. Of course you loose the mana, as if the spell would really have been casted. The advantage is, that you can do it in a safe place: in the town for example. This would allow a spellcaster to \"store\" his spells ready-to-use in a staff, and when he uses the staff, the spell would be casted immediately, without any spellcasting-time. (Skain, exactly, what you said!)
Of course, more spells could be stored in a staff. It depends on the \"quality\" of the staff (i.e. it\'s price :) ) how many spells can be stored in it. The more better (unique) the staff, the more \"slots\" it has for the spells.
This storing-system would allow a spellcaster to prepare for a battle at home.
What do you say? I think this also MUST be done. Skain, GREAT idea! :)
I pray some of the devs read this. Please, developers, give us some sign, that you read this whole chatting (the other posts also). Hmmm? :(
Thank you.
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Greetings,
E.
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I think it would be a great idea to put a feature into the game where a wizard could make scrolls.
Then the wizards could make scrolls for the warriors to use or himself so that it wouldent take so long to cast a spell. To make the scrolls you would have to have some paper a featherpen and some magic ink(maybe special ink for each of the \"elements\" like blue red and so on). then you would have to write the magic words on the paper yourself. Then after you wrote the words, they would be replased by strange signs that only other wizards of the same level or higher could read. That way wizards could trade magic with eachother. And when you traded a scroll to a wizard. He would be able to continue the spell on the scroll and make it even stronger with his wisdom of spells by writing more on the paper.
Also an idea is that magic requires special chrystals?
Also enchanting amulets and rings....... should be possible.
Also a wizard should be able to trade his/her spellbook with others if he/she likes. It should only be an item like other things. only that you can write in it.
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An idea of some magic stuff!
One sould have to complete a quest of some sort and after he/she would be given a special kind of magic.
Example:
I complete the quest and i get a scroll with the magis formular of Lightning flash.
Another one of my friends complete the quest and gets fire flash.
The idea is that you get an almost uniq magic. one that almost no one else gets so that every wizard would be different from another.
Also an idea is that to even become a wizard one would have to complete a quest and only then would he be given the powers/secrets of magis and maybe a scroll or two to put in his/her spellbook. I mean that when u first start the game thinkin \"im gonna be a great wizard\" youll be wrong. only if u complete the \"trial of the gods\" youll be able to wield even the simplest form of magic. U have to earn the abilety to cast magic.
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Hey, I didn\'t even thought of this, but now that you mention...
Spells would be stored in SpellBooks, BUT it would be possible to \"cast\" them into a staff. Of course you loose the mana, as if the spell would really have been casted. The advantage is, that you can do it in a safe place: in the town for example. This would allow a spellcaster to \"store\" his spells ready-to-use in a staff, and when he uses the staff, the spell would be casted immediately, without any spellcasting-time. (Skain, exactly, what you said!)
Of course, more spells could be stored in a staff. It depends on the \"quality\" of the staff (i.e. it\'s price ) how many spells can be stored in it. The more better (unique) the staff, the more \"slots\" it has for the spells.
This storing-system would allow a spellcaster to prepare for a battle at home.
I was just making a joke but this is a really good idea, would be a lot easier in combat too, say shortcut key \'1\' = spell 1 would be a lot easier than, \'open skills\' \'use\' \'spell 1\' \'on monster A\'
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Even though this is wwwwaaaaaayyyyyyy off topic,why don\'t they make magic long ranged?You could see little sparkles or something as the spell moves.Then you could hide behind,on top,ect.,ect., and kill something with magic!This would be very fun and a good way to get magic up.
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i think i know how to correctly post things, lets hope...
ok, here is an idea for spell dialects:
the wizard would need to learn pieces of the spell, (these can be text, or \'magic words\', but i think it would be better that they are little pictures, or \'runes\') to form a spell the wizard would orginize these runes into spell-strings which would determine the effects of the spell
ive seen alot of people suggest things like this, and id quote them, but i havent figured out how to do that yet
now, you would have a rune for each magic skill (red, brown, azure, blue, crystal, and dark) and as each rune is \'hit\' in the string it would require a skill check of the appropriate skill. if at any point durring the string, a skill check fails, the string would end there, and the spell would cast as is, assuming that the successful part of the string did anything.
simple spells would have short strings, like three runes, more complex (read powerful) spells would have long strings, say eight or more.
so wizards with low magic skills should stick to the simple spells, but as their skills get higher their srings can get longer, and spells get more powerful.
the kicker is that the number of runes in a string could be infinite, a wizard could keep adding in runes,and thus power, but only the most skilled wizards could pull of the longer spell-strings because every rune in the string will require a sepreate skill check, and eventualy a skill check will fail thusly ending the spell.
this way, you could have an infinite number of spells, just come up with a spell-string sequence and figure out a effect for it.
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Originally posted by beza1e1
In every game you see the player pressing a key and the character starts whirling his hands and after a few seconds (while the player just watches!) the fireball flies. Why not replacing this watching time with typing time?
Hmm, yes, i like the idea, but, it would just be to easy to some lame wizards program some cheating program to do the writing of the difficult spell, so when good ol\' honest wizard tries to duel this cheater mage it would not be equal fight, becose cheater mage would just push one button to cast some ?ber spell while the honest mage could not even get his protections on.
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You may be right, but don\'t get cheating into this (at least for now). Let\'s suppose, that there is NO cheating at all, that everything is safe, and everyone is playing honestly (as they CANNOT cheat).
Cheating can happen everywhere. We must not make the ideas cheat-proof. The game has to be made cheat-proof. That\'s the responsibility of the PS server to detect hackers, or some other way. The ideas must be designed for original, no cheating play. The only thing we can do, is trust in the players, as well as in the developers, that they will make the game as cheat-proof as possible.
So, don\'t think about cheating for now. Believe, as everything works as intended.
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Greetings,
E.
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Yesyes, i would like to think that every player is honest, but they will not be, and how can a anti-cheat program detect a writing hack?
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Allright, but I said: cheating can happen everywhere in the game. It is not up to us to locate them. We MUST NOT think about them - for now. And I also said: believe as well in the devs of the game. That\'s the most we can do.
Seems we are diversing from the original topic, so if any of you want any more talk about cheating, go ahead, make a different thread.
So, any more comments on the \"original\" idea?
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Greetings,
E.
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the 1234 type spell is great I think
somehow the staff thingy is good two ; I think a mixed up thing should be used :
Spell casters buy a \"spell kit\"; depending on the spell kit level, you can prepare good spells or small ones ; in this spell you have icons, corresponding to your schools : azure way for example and red way
In it you have a sub menu : let\'s say for red way, fireball and so on ; the more you advance in PS (the more xp you gain), the more options you will have in the sub menu ; there you combine your elements, and finally you give it a name
You can then use it in the battle ; and let\'s say that mages buildings would give a small bonus for spells creators, like 5% more powerfull for example
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first of all: I don\'t like this idea
The concept of a spell dialect and spel combinations although interesting is not original - there are many games with combination magics and using spell words is little ore than a mud based game. As Planeshift is going to be original and not a mud - this system is not practical - look for something more visual and gui oriented.
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Wow, hmm some of you might want to look at the arcane order, we could aways need those ready to help ideas in magic, we have been discusing magic rules in ps in our boards so check us out
- know, recruitment spam-
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Originally posted by Drilixer
first of all: I don\'t like this idea
The concept of a spell dialect and spel combinations although interesting is not original - there are many games with combination magics and using spell words is little ore than a mud based game. As Planeshift is going to be original and not a mud - this system is not practical - look for something more visual and gui oriented.
I\'m sorry, but you\'re wong here. I haven\'t seen any game so far, that used this concept, as most RPGs on computers are more or less based on AD&D, and there are only fixed spells, which you have to memorize, etc.
And speaking about original things, if I take things strictly, the whole magic stuff in PS is not original at all, as PS spells are cast from: mana. Well, as I said, I haven\'t seen any game using the concept discussed here, but I have played at least 20 games that has mana. Don\'t misunderstand me: the mana stuff is good. I just showed, that in PS, this magical dialect would be just fine.
About visual and GUI stuff: have you EVER talked to an NPC??? Well, I think that is don\'t visual or gui oriented at all.
I think this idea is important, because in a real RPG, the wizard is the toughest character to play. I have an RPG book here, and it sais, only start a wizard character, if you are a very experienced player.
Here, this magical dialect stuff would make a wizard\'s role harder. A wizard\'s life is not easy. If someone wants to go hack\'n\'slash, quickly kill monsters, then be a fighter (no classes, but adjust your skill points to resemble a fighter). If you want to use magic, then you have to work for it, not just your character.
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Greetings,
E.
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Originally posted by elminster
About visual and GUI stuff: have you EVER talked to an NPC??? Well, I think that is don\'t visual or gui oriented at all.
hehe, read some of my threads... I hate the current NPC system... I know the answers to the quests but refuse to do them since the NPCs are so god damn tedious to talk to... they NEED a gui desperately. And I still dislike the idea of a magical dialect. So what, there is mana... if you want a different wording that can be changed easily - just go tell Talad you want mana named radiance or some such... it doesn\'t matter...
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i like this thread a lot, but what i really want to know is how do the dev\'s think about this?
anyhow, for me this \'magic system\' is quite new and refreshing, i used to play a lot of D&D and well i think their use of the arcane arts starts to get boring after a while, keep memorizing, press a button, watch what happens,..its just no fun after a while
so im rlly fond of this thread, keep posting
and if dev read this thread plz reply i think a lot of ppl would like to know your opinion
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The idea of a spell dialect is interesting but I think as was pointed out earlier in the thread it would become tedious to keep typing out spells. To counter this a combination between GUI and custom spells could be used.
For Example the character or guild has a basic kit of spell components such as the Magical way and the type of damage etc that they can assemble and store in a spell book these spells can then be used by the character carrying the spell book using a GUI interface. In addition to this standard spells could be included that can be learned and used without research (for the lazy wizard).
As this system would soon mean that every combination would be found after a period of time then extra options could be added to the kits afterwards every now and then.
As for those who want to type spells instead of use a GUI spell book then a simple solution would be to set up trigger words such as \"/spell firebolt\" etc
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I love this idea!
I\'ve read quite a few issues on this and I don\'t see how they would be a problem...
For one, this is definitely an original idea, or at least has the potential to be...
The problems with typing - I can see how this would be bad if you had to type a spell out each time - even if people don\'t cheat - they could still be speed typers, that could be considered a must but what if you are crippled or something in rl? Isn\'t this game about being something your not? My suggestion is to use casting time [the time would be proportional to the length of the spell] in conjunction with the staff/scroll idea. Have some items that are instant where the mana is already used and some where the item acts as a magical conductor and add in cast time - some items could be faster too. Or you could make it so at the end of the cast time the spell copied and pasted itself onto the say channel (or shout depending on the strength of the spell - another area to play around with and make this just plain COOL)
There a tons of ways to make it so it isn\'t as simple as typing it once and then being able to push a hot key - TONS
The items also open up anther tradeskill/craft opportunity for making and enchanting items for spell casters - you might have to quest to get the wood for the staff or visit far away cities for the gems - all kinds of stuff!
My contribution to the topic however, would be to insist the the words not just be like square blocks but rather a puzzle (someone mentioned this before at the beginning) - making an entire language with grammar - this would help prevent cheating since it would be a language - you can\'t just make a website and have your customers magically (no pun intended) KNOW how to use french - they\'d have to learn it over time.
This may sound crazy but from a programming stand point, this isn\'t REALLY that hard to implement - infact, if you look around there are tons of sites on programming things like this - even casual programmers can handle it if they reseach the algorithms - I\'ve seen a Visual Basic program on translating Latin with sting parsing and all that good stuff programmed by a virtual no body - so I know it can be done.
Also, when wizards are limited by level (or mana or whatever limits what spells are limited by) they could group together an combine their powers - just a thought
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if you are going to have a magical dialect a grammar would be essential. The difficult part would be determining the grammar. vocabulary is easy grammer is not. Although it wouldn\'t have to be a complicated grammer just a simple one would do. It would definitely be unique to PS.
Some thoughts on how a magic system like this would be like to play. You could perhaps choose the mana amount you wish to spend through the grammer with minimums for certain actions. Also It might make spell dueling more interesting. Consider this. You square off against that annoying mage from the \"insert enemy guild name here\" The trick to winning is figuring out his weak spot. What has he forgotten to guard against? What spells can spend the least amount of mana on and sneak past his defences. It becomes more of a mind game than a Brute force attack. He may start unleashing his uber death ball from hades attack but while he\'s doing that you quietly let loose your mini iceball with quick cast time and low mana useage because you know he likes fire magic and probably forgot to protect against ice attack. you fire off two before he even notices he lost half his hp while he was trying to cast that ridiculously difficult long cast time fireball spell.. Advantage you.
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FYI - I\'m sure the magic system is pretty much develloped concept wise - your efforts would much better be used in the spell wishlist thread
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I heard that in another thread somewhere... Still though, this is fun to discuss, even if it isn\'t applied in the next version, or even in the game, just developing the idea is fun [for me at least] :]
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Originally posted by SnowWolf
I heard that in another thread somewhere... Still though, this is fun to discuss, even if it isn\'t applied in the next version, or even in the game, just developing the idea is fun [for me at least] :]
haha admit it SnowWolf you heard it in our guild forums (which are partially open to the public *hint hint*) - what better place to look for magic than in the Arcane Order Forums... the foremost mages guild in all of Yliakum!
*muahahaha*
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simply Put OMg have none of you ever played dungeon master on the old systems liek the atrais that had 1 of the best magic systems i have everplayedinsatd of u just casting a book or a skill or a scroll
You clicked on the rune combinations starting with a power rune then moving onto the delivery of the spell whether its casted on your self or shot off or even tranfered into a potion flask then it goes to the element then the state whethere it was air liquid solid smoke etc then move onto the final 2 propetie types
sorry about the spelling but for those of u have played the game you will under stand what i mean for instance in dungeon master to cast fire ball u would click the first power rune any of them would do altohugh it becoame harder to cast with the highest power
the second rune would be ful making into a fast flying forward spell then the last rune ir would imbue it with the properties of fire then you would just let the spell fly. there where many spells in dungeon master i personaly found over 60 altohugh there were supose to be many more as for getting this game for pc
good luck lol it probly wouldnt run on pcs now as it would have been a dos game for pc ill try to get u guys some picture of the system im tlaking about but i dont know a good picture host :(
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Originally posted by Sifright
simply Put OMg have none of you ever played dungeon master on the old systems liek the atrais that had 1 of the best magic systems i have everplayedinsatd of u just casting a book or a skill or a scroll
You clicked on the rune combinations starting with a power rune then moving onto the delivery of the spell whether its casted on your self or shot off or even tranfered into a potion flask then it goes to the element then the state whethere it was air liquid solid smoke etc then move onto the final 2 propetie types
sorry about the spelling but for those of u have played the game you will under stand what i mean for instance in dungeon master to cast fire ball u would click the first power rune any of them would do altohugh it becoame harder to cast with the highest power
the second rune would be ful making into a fast flying forward spell then the last rune ir would imbue it with the properties of fire then you would just let the spell fly. there where many spells in dungeon master i personaly found over 60 altohugh there were supose to be many more as for getting this game for pc
good luck lol it probly wouldnt run on pcs now as it would have been a dos game for pc ill try to get u guys some picture of the system im tlaking about but i dont know a good picture host :(
I\'ve played that b4 - and I agree that that would make for a fun system
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i dont know how long i spent playing that game but i think i got to like um master wizard with most of my people and having my fighters at the craftsman level fighter was a realy fun game im surrized uve played it how old are 20? any way heres the link http://www.buildyourowncomputer.info/menu/download/games/dm/DM.zip that is the link to the dungeon master gmae it zipped and contains a few extra game dungeons which haveto be puti n maunauly read the insturctions after u zip the game on1 other note @DO NOT@ judge teh game solely on looks the games is diffcult at first but once u get the hang of it is good fun any way happy gaming
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somthing to add to this and seeing edit diddnt wirk wen i tryed to i will post a more deatalied version of what could be used in Ps using a rune system
To start with you would have A rune for each of the 7 ways of magic..
then you would have the power rune the higher the power the more diffcult it is to manage it
Then you have the state the spell is in solid liquid smoke normal air etc..
then the delviery of the spell which could cast on your self on as afast flung spell or maybe to cast left even back wards would make for a cool bit of magicking to see a mage spin 3 spells in quick sucseion hitting the guy in froint the guy to the left of him and the guy sneaking up behind :D then the last properties basics spells wouldnt use the last properties but how ever the more advanced spells would use it to invoke a slight combination of another way to make a particular spell much more powerfull for instance a fire ball does 20 dmg to undead monster mixed with the way of the white that fire balls power triples to 60
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The way I see it is that magic is a large area that allows a lot of originality for many game developers. Unfortunately, most developers simply go for the easiest, most tried and tested methods. There have been many approaches. To my mind there are 6 distinct areas, which most developers customise to make their magic system unique. These are; the learning method, the casting method, the pyrotechnic effects (i.e. visuals), actual effects of the spell, the repercussions for the wizard of casting the spell, and finally alternative uses for the spells.
In my opinion the best magic systems are those that allow some level of customisation, i.e. allow you to create/modify spells.
Learning method:
There are several possibilities that have been used and reused. Many can be mixed and matched to allow several different methods of learning spells in one game. Here are most of the methods that come to mind:
1. The simplest method; when you level up the spell just appears inside your head. One example; Shadow hearts for the PS2.
2. The dark cloud method (i.e. Ruby the Genie?s method.). You find magical weaponry, in Ruby?s case magical rings these rings can then be customised, combined, and levelled up to make more or less powerful rings. This method sucked.
3. Find a scroll, book, or some other arcane object, memorise it or put it into a spell book. Much like D&D, many games use this method.
4. Watch the spell being performed, much like the creatures in Black and White, the more times you watch/successfully do it the easier it is to cast.
5. You pay or find an NPC to teach you the spell.
6. The final fantasy VIII approach. You draw (take) a finite number of spells from some kind of Mana well/spring, or you draw it from an enemy. When you run out of spells you either draw more of them or have none to cast.
7. The ff7 method (like the dark cloud one, only this has a lot more customisation). You find a magically imbued object like Materia (like a crystal) these Materia have their own experience system and become more powerful the more they are used. It also allows magic to be bought and sold as a commodity, with high-level Materia being highly sort after. Also Materia can be combined to allow a variety of effects (i.e. thunder-Materia mixed with all-Materia casts thunder on all enemies in a specific fight).
8. The ff10 method/not dissimilar to Diablo 2. You have a skill board of some description, you take a path on the skill board, when you activate a specific point on the board you may use that skill, and this includes spells.
9. And finally my favourite method, Morrowind. You buy a spell or find a scroll. However, you learn not only the spell but also the particular effects of the spell. These effects can then be combined, and customised, to make completely new spells. For instance if you know the shock effect and the summon effect, they can be combined to make a spell that will simultaneously shock the target and summon a demon to gnaw on him.
Casting method:
Most games use a very simple method; it is rare to see anything especially original in the casting department. Methods I have seen:
1. The morrowind / final fantasy / nwn method, select spell, click on target. That?s it, no skill involved, unless the target is moving very fast :P .
2. The same system, but you need to have the material components in your possession.
3. Clicking at specific times, if you click at the most opportune moments it does more damage. See shadow hearts for an example.
4. You can allow the spell to build up and it does more damage, but it takes more time, and you are vulnerable to attack, only works in real-time combat. See septerra core for an example.
5. Semantics, you type in some arcane command, which triggers the spell. i.e. what this thread is supposed to be about (me going off topic)
6. Group casting, it can be possible to have a group of mages cast a superspell
7. The black and white method. You trace a rune with the pointer and it casts the spell. This is the most innovative idea I have personally seen.
Pyrotechnics:
Well this is really more aesthetic than anything else. But good magic effects can be very cool. There is a wide scale; you can have insane amounts of slightly pretentious almost anime effects like the final fantasy games. Or you can have subtler, less impressive effects like Morrowind. And then there is middle ground like Baldur?s gate? Personally I like big explosions.
Effects of the spell:
There are thousands of possibilities. Status changes, areas of effect, damage, polymorphs, enchantments, illusions, etc? Do you limit the maximum power of a mage? Do you have mega spells such as being able to summon armies or demi-gods? Do you categorize magic into different schools (in Planeshift this is a yes)? And then on top of all these questions you have to decide how well people can defend themselves from magic.
I think there is a large scope here to come up with highly original Magic system.
Repercussions:
There have been several different methods:
1. You can only hold a finite number of spells in your mind at any given time. Every time you cast a spell you lose one of the stockpile. D&D or FF8 use a similar system.
2. You have mana/magic points, when you cast a spell these go down.
3. You lose the material components of the spell.
4. You become fatigued and need to rest.
5. You are unable to cast the spell again for a set amount of time.
6. Occasionally the spell backfires and discharges at you, or an ally.
I am sure there is more? Usually the more complicated or powerful the spell is, the more repercussions it has and the more severe they are.
Alternative uses:
For instance; in FF8 you could ?junction? your spells with weapons or armour, granting the item with magically properties. For instance if you junction a sword with a sleep spell then every time you hit with the sword there would be a percentage chance of the enemy being sent to sleep. But I believe there is plenty of scope to develop alternative uses to spells than just casting them?
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Well that?s it, that?s my analysis of computer game magic systems? Feedback? Ideas? Additions?
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Originally posted by Badakai
Although this might make it easier, it doesn\'t improve rp\'ing. Instead of ppl saying \"And then I cast the most beatiful super-rainbow attack, blinding and sweeping away those foul beasts into the dark pits they came from\" they now would say \"I cast 13337\"
IMHO that isn\'t fun.
well why not set the number code to an alaisis (sorry i cant spell) and then instead of \"I cast 13337\" you can set \"13337\" as \"flamus inferno\" so the game engine still acknoleges it as \"13337\" but it is masked as \"flamus inferno\" in the text box
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Originally posted by Dureus
Originally posted by Badakai
Although this might make it easier, it doesn\'t improve rp\'ing. Instead of ppl saying \"And then I cast the most beatiful super-rainbow attack, blinding and sweeping away those foul beasts into the dark pits they came from\" they now would say \"I cast 13337\"
IMHO that isn\'t fun.
well why not set the number code to an alaisis (sorry i cant spell) and then instead of \"I cast 13337\" you can set \"13337\" as \"flamus inferno\" so the game engine still acknoleges it as \"13337\" but it is masked as \"flamus inferno\" in the text box
*ew* :P
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hehe i have alot of good ideas for this but... im to lazy to type them all.... 8)
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hi
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Well ive got an idea (im a man of many ideas)
y not just mix the spells and put them on the quick bar
u could 1st of all get introduced as to how 2 mix spells
then try to discover some more!
such as
Fire+ice = water
Fire + armor = fire armor
etc
(maybe very vague)
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yes but that is rather limited to what you can do with magic. lets see what the decs already hav planned for magic
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Asheron\'s Call 1 had a verbalized magic system. The player still had to gather reagents and practice combining them to learn spells. He also had to have those components in his inventory when he wanted to cast a particular spell. When you cast a spell, you actually spoke a set of combined syllables. From \"listening\" to these syllables, another mage could discern the order of the schools to which the neccesary components belonged and gain some idea of how to combine reagents (or runes) to cast it himself.
Additonally, some components varied so as to make the publishing of spell lists and component combinations impossible. Well, not impossible but not exact either. As a spell became higher level, the number of components, their order and the quantities needed varied more and more greatly.
If you can imagine a line of 12 boxes which would be the \"learning screen\", a mage would pull components from his inventory to \"assemble\" a spell. Lower level spells might use only 6 boxes while higher ones used them all. Some spells required that a particular component be placed in more than one box. Themnage wouldthen hit the experiment key to see if he\'d created a useful combination. If he had, an icon for that spell was created in his spell book and could be placed in a hot key for combat use.
To make a system like this as open as possible, it seems you\'d mostly just have to create a list of uncombinable sequences, not actually define all the allowable spells.
So, it might be something like this:
A B C D E F G H I J K L
Where:
A=School of magic to define the elemental forces summoned.
B=Damage modifier
C=Damage over time modifier
D=Target skill of debuff
E=Stun effect if any
F=Hold effect if any
G=Duration
H=Level range. Defines a higher set of starting effects linked to I.
I=Determines which effect (B, C, D, E or F) H moves to higher range
J, K & L=Randomizers.
In fact, Asherons call put the randomizers first and increased the number of them as spell difficulty increased. this had the effect of forcing even more experimentation as the slots which created the effect were shifted in position. Every \'Slot\" contributed a syllable to the actual \"vocalization\" of the spell which occured when it was cast. The syllable changed depending on the actual reagent or rune which was in each slot. One of the randomizers also altered the syllable sets for every component so gold might be \"etf\" up to a certain level but became \"evu\" at higher level. Of course the system can be made even more complicated by introducing \"quality\" to the components as well.
The real trick to a system like this is not the spell creation matrix itself however but devising a system of spell animations to compliment it. I can\'t honestly recall the spell animations from Asheron\'s Call 1 but it seems for this sort of system to be really cool, there would need to be an animation matrix that more or less altered the animation based on the exact spell.
Let me clarify-One feature of a spell system like this is that there could be 20 or even more ranks of damage (or duration) for essentially the same spell. It would suck if they all had the same animation however. Not to mention that a spell that debuffed armor should look different from one that debuffs health and so on. Creating static animations for all these spells is a daunting task particularly for an open source, all-volunteer game.
What\'s needed, I think is for color to be the primary alterable animation component. Then a particular spell would have several short, linked animations and the colors of each would vary based on the spell strength etc. This could be a \"hidden\" element which was defined when the spell matrix was created. If it\'s possible to actually have animations play \"on top\" of each other, all the better.
That\'s my two cents...for now.
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Yeah I LOVE this idea, the saying of the words or the crafting-thingy. Mabye you could use a combination, the words come from the form in which you craft it.. but the biggest hard parts to all this are:
1. Making Animations
2. Preventing people from making a \"ulberspell\" That blows up an entire mountain of enemies.
3. The code algorithims, matrices, whatevers.
Yeh I think the animations could be composed of parts that can scale and colorize, that would work quite well.. :))
As to the ulberspell, mabye there would be so many combinations that no spell is the greatest, and they are of course changed from person to person.. And mabye the more powerful the incantitation, the weaker you are the weaker the spell, and it grows weak exponentially * 2 :D
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I think for each spell there should be a possibility of failure depending on the difficulty (or power) of the spell and the skill of the caster. If a spell fails, it should have more or less nasty consequences for the caster and/or his companions, depending on how big the mistake was the caster made (the lower his skill and the more powerful the spell, the worse are the consequences). What exactly happens also should depend on the spell itself in the best case.
Off course I think, this will be a very difficult thing to implement.
Some things a spell does could just be reversed in case of failure (caster takes damage instead of enemy, or enemy is healed instead of damaged; armor is weakened instead of reinforced and so on), but with some spells it might be really difficult to find something that makes sence and can be implemented.
In this way, a magical apprentice could have the possibility to cast devastating spells, to summon a mighty demon or whatever, but his chance to succeed will be minimal (if it\'s not just 0 because of his low skill), not to mention the high chance of bad things to happen...
Maybe I will think more about these things or even do some coding as soon as I have the time.
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Quote:
As to the ulberspell, mabye there would be so many combinations that no spell is the greatest, and they are of course changed from person to person.. And mabye the more powerful the incantitation, the weaker you are the weaker the spell, and it grows weak exponentially * 2
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Well. it really just depends on how \"realistic\" a system you want. Of course the increasing number of rune (I\'ll use runes rather than reagents since PS has runes) slots required can be directly tied to advancing skill level. Players below a certain level would simply get a failure if they tried to discover too high a spell...or they might have a small chance of releasing/conjuring some aspect of the spelll which they lacked the mental capacity (skill) to properly control resulting in ????? who knows what bad effect.
In addition, there could be a set of control ranges put on spells. this would define how consistently the caster could control the spell and would of course be tied to level or perhaps familiarity (usage) of a particular school or rune. The \"green\" range would always perform as they were supposed to, the \"yellow\" range would have a varying chance of failing or backfiring and the red range would be ummm...unpredictable. What spells were in what ranges would change as the caster leveled.
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Well this is extremely original and would rock if it can be pulled off.
Anyway, what about using lating for the magic dialect? This is for example what J.K.Rowling did in Harry Potter and i must say latin is one of the most versatile and more mysterious/intelligent-sounding languages on earth. In fact, thanks to the unique structure of latin you could use actual latin sentences as magic phrases and make it sound good. For example:
\"Lumos Igneus\": burning light
\"Volo Incumbo\": making yourself levitate
\"Ictus Gelu\": Bolt of frost
etc. I know this is not proper latin, but you get the point. And we could use some other fictional language if latin is not \"original enough\".
And another somewhat related idea: Spells should not be \"learned\" or \"inscribed\" automatically. instead, characters can experiment themselves with common words and combinations and inscibe these in their spellbook until they find something that works. Or they can ofcourse learn it from a friend, read the correct spell in a book or hear it from an NPC. The main point being that once you learn the correct phrase you have to manually type it into your spellbook, and each time you cast that inscribed spell you will say those exact words, and the spell will only work if it exists. And it will be inscribed even if its not correct. Kind of like how a \"real\" fantasy setting would look like.
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Latin is a good base to use for a Magic Dialect. The question is do you want a succesful combination to have a preset name or one that is generated by a syllable attached to each of the components?
For the latter concept, each glyph would have a (probably) three letter \"name\" that, when combined would be the vocalization of that spell so that:
Glyph A= elu
Glyph B= ada
Glyph C= nun
Glyph D= ica
Depending upon the postion of these glyphs, one could vreate spells with the vocalizations-
Adanunicaelu
Icaeluadanun
Eluicanunada
etc.
If during character creation every character was assigned a hidden set of offsets to randomize their particular glyph order and/or glyphs, these vocalizations would be inadequate information for someone to discern the glyph order to make that spell for themselves. If we WANTED the vocalization to provide some information, then the matrix can be constructed so that perhaps the \"school\" or color of the glyph order is at least contenetd and discernable.