PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zytorr on December 18, 2009, 01:05:47 am
-
I have lowered the value of a pair of axes and a pair of sabers by repairing them. It seems there may be some bug involved. The axes were 299/300 and repaired to 296/296. The sabers were 290/291 repaired to 284/284. I am level 50 in weapon repair.
-
Bug #2309 --> http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray/index.php?do=details&task_id=2309 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray/index.php?do=details&task_id=2309)
-
it's how it's supposed to work :)
-
weltall, i have level 5 (4 maybe i forgot) repair and my weapons' values only go down one per repair. he's level 50 and his are going down 7.
-
it's all depending on the quality of the weapon.
-
Of course a repaired weapon shall not reach the current maximum quality again. But it should not get worse than the current actual quality either... or should it? Is that an expression of the idea that a grind stone scratches the blade always to some worse quality, so a (nearly) perfect blade can never be repaired to any quality beyond a threshold using repair kits -- or that repair kits are simply the wrong tool if you want to repair a blade to perfection?
Wow, PlaneShift is *that* realistic! :o
-
When you take a sharpening stone to a blade, you do wind up losing a little bit of metal in the process. However, what he's talking about is that the Q loss when repairing is STILL too high (esp. at high skill levels).
-
that has been fixed for an entire release
-
I have lowered the value of a pair of axes and a pair of sabers by repairing them. It seems there may be some bug involved. The axes were 299/300 and repaired to 296/296. The sabers were 290/291 repaired to 284/284. I am level 50 in weapon repair.
That sounds about right. The idea is that a repair does wear the weapon down. It should make the economy more involving people who are good in repair and/or people crafting new weapons. Now that you know a repair will cost you that much quality, you will learn not to repair until your actual quality is way below that value. In total, depending on your skills, you should be able to use the weapon quite some time, but then you will buy a new one.
Things may still need tweaking, but should be OK in general. Do not repair high quality weapons if you do not have the skill to repair them, you will ruin them. If you have skill, do not repair if not needed.
-
It's how it's supposed to work ????
Now let me ponder this.
Why would one spend the amount of time it takes to practice and learn weapon repair? …and the time to do the repair on special weapons as well? Further why would one use the magical or special weapons if they know they cannot repair them to a better quality once worn? Are the special hard to find weapons just for collectors? It would seem that if one has the skill (of repair) they should be able to use that to an advantage of keeping special weapons longer or being able to profit from offering repair services. How much might someone pay to have their Dark Fine Saber restored after having its advantage for a special duel? Would not they wish to use it again? (These are not crafted weapons and not cheep, reguardless of what Harnquist pays!) And to repair only when worn a lot, ...well what good might be a 20/20 Dark Fine Saber? No, I really think a fine weapon should be keep as close to its maximum for as long as one can, then replaced with another.
And what of armor repair? Is it now as ineffective as weapon repair?
Repairing things does seem a very small part of this world, but it is the small things that really put life into this existence. (Is not there some thought that every skill is just as important to that character's development and role in this world?)
more thoughts:
One skilled in repair should expect that the maximum quality would go down over time, and just as well they should expect that the actual quality would always go up with repair. A novice repairer might find less improvement and longer time is required or even nothing but experience. A master should be able to gain from their skill.
-
Yep, repairs destroy armor as well. I am just not going to do any more repairs until this gets fixed. Too bad as I had some interesting RP ideas using repairs.
-
1% loss isn't nearly "destroyed". Weapons have lasted nearly forever up to now, and that has been an issue for crafters and balance-minded players for a long time. Now they don't last forever, and here come the rest of you.
Search some and you'll see the forums will bear this out...those effected haven't been the least bit silent on this point.
Yes, we're starting in on some balance stuff, and it won't all come overnight, so as we transition, there may be some tuning to be done.
:beta:
-
1% loss isn't nearly "destroyed". Weapons have lasted nearly forever up to now, and that has been an issue for crafters and balance-minded players for a long time. Now they don't last forever, and here come the rest of you.
Little wrong calculation: Q295/297 weapon got repaired to Q288!!! It's not 1% but 2,3%. But another question is, how it can be repaired to lower quality, than it has before repair? That is damage, not repair. While repairing, the resulting quality should be somewhere between 295 and 297 in this case (while calculating 75% of 2 damage in quality is 1,5 and maybe rounded down 1, then resulting quality should be 296 or 296,5 while using real numbers).
-
what you seem to be looking for is a polish sub-skill with which you could buff out nicks and scratches after every use, indeed that is how to train repair without cheating, you get a pack full of cheap weapons and scratch them up with a partner or against mobs. This might make a good future addition, apprentices could train polishing until their master deems them ready for something more substantial.
-
I guess what I am looking for (or expecting) in repairs is something that makes sense and is fair.
It is fair that both quality number go down over USE of the weapon or armor, the first more than the second. But the first number should never go down because of a repair. The first number should always show some repair, of course limited by the second number. The second number really determines the life of the weapon or armor, and yes should be reasonable with all other elements of the game. However what has now been done is extremely unfair, much more so than it was before.
Why all this interest toward favoring crafting? Be fair to all aspects or trades. Do you know how long was spent practicing repairs to get to some decent levels? Have you done this in-game or just at the drawing board? Do you know how long it takes to repair a magical weapon? Do you know how discouraging it is to spend all that time, while believing your developing a cool skill, to find out it is just more effective to sell the old stuff and buy new?
And, what seems to be some whimsical attitude to how things should work, is there any understanding about fine weaponry? Example: One who has a valuable sword (like a samurai) demonstrates their knowledge and respect for the arts by keeping it in prime condition. If it becomes 299/300 or 49/50, they spend time to repair it best they can. (and that means it goes back to 300/300 or 50/50) At some point it may wear to 298/299 the repair being only to 299. At some point it may get to 280/298, well maybe then it only gets repaired to 290/298 or maybe 294/294. These are just examples, you should grasp the idea here.
I would guess few did repairs due to the cost, mainly in time. I learned it to repair magical items. I would guess that now likely no one will do repairs as it is just not worth the effort, just buy new.
I like my weapons to be in top condition. When after much use and several repairs they get to 250/250, I enjoy giving them to a noob and buying new ones. Some only get to 280/280.
And if fairness seems a goal, why not have the special weapons last as long as crafted or else have the ability to craft special weapons. In any case though, all should be able to be decently repaired. Otherwise just remove repairs from the game (same for armor repair).
-
ya the repair problem doesnt make sense to me, you repair it and it goes down, its like a monkey is bangin on th weapon with a hammer, and thats not repairing...
-
It went down before. But it took 10 minutes for a single repair of a frosty short sword, or half an hour for some other things. The balancing that is being done improved a lot of things already. I understand you prefer the half hour repairs. I do not.
-
i just prefered how it was in 4.03 i could repair my sabres in 10 seconds to damn near full every time
i try to keep my weapons in shape ^^
-
10 seconds? i thought there was a floor there!
-
not 10 for both but 10 per sabre, its like a double hammer bang, done!
-
There was a hard mininum larger than 10 seconds.
-
hm most people i know could do sabres in 10
-
I couldn't do any weapon in less than 20 seconds. anything (some multi-modded weapons -- the iron mailed longsword of stone comes to mind) over 1/2 an hour was too complex for my 25 levels it took me a long time to be able to repair that thing and by that time iron swords were no longer great weapons.
Perhaps the sabers were bugged.
-
i exclude it. it's impossible to repair in less than 20 seconds it's hardcoded as floor limit whathever is the input
-
if its been excluded or whatever, how come i was able to do sabres in 10 seconds per?
-
I am a little baffled myself on this topic of weapons dropping their quality lower than the damaged quality after being repaired. If my truck is damaged and I take it to be repaired at the body shop, then there are three facts that emerge.
1) One my truck does not look/function worse than the damage after being repaired.
2) My truck is buffed and polished (if there is body damage) without me requesting it. It is part of the repair process.
3) My truck is no longer as good as it was before the damage, but NOT worse than when it was damaged. [if it is worse than the damage than there will be an exclusive hunting season on the mechanic and the repair technician that made my truck worse.]
So, I'm confused as to why the weapon repair system is dropping the quality lower than the damaged quality. Last I checked, there is a tremendous effort to keep some realism in the crafting skills. It seems the realism was missed with this particular update. If I have misunderstood the mechanics of the repair system, then please reeducate me.
-
hmm..
is it a bug?
if so, how long till its fixed??
-
I never agreed upon the whole quality system myself from its first conception. Frankly, I think it's all stupid and crosses the line of making things realistic at the loss of fun.
But, that is the system they have decided to go with, so I put my faith in them getting it right. This requires tweaking time so I wait as they work out the kinks like everyone else.
@EStripus
In regards to your analogy, you have a fourth option that you glossed over. That is, you get your truck back in a worse condition from when you had it taken in to have work done on it. Why? because you took it to a bad place in which the tech either was new and inexperienced and made things worse, or the tech simply didn't care about doing a good job and just wanted your money. Now you are forced with having to deal with that.
Carry this to in game, it highly reasonable to think that the first few times you try to repair something with a low/the starting level of repair on a character working on a high quality item, that you will ultimately do more damage to it than what it already had done to it. Work on lower quality items to see better results with your low repair level, and work on raising your repair level higher to expect to have better results on repairing higher quality items. At least, that's how I understand things.
real world scenario: see the first 5 minutes of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc_CXFfT8cQ
improper repair breaks things worse than it originally was.
-
@Neko: lol, I was just discussing with a friend that I had left that 'fourth' point out. I agree totally, but that is where skill level of the repairer comes in handy. A high level repairer should be able to come closer to the original condition than a competent but lower level repairer. Also, taking into consideration that very low level repairers may break just about any weapon regardless of its original quality. So there is definately an RP opportunity there for characters/players to find experienced weapon repairs for the intricacy of the weapon, max 50Q vs 300Q weapons. In the case of breakage by any repairer, perhaps individual repairers may create disclaimers or agreements with customers. An ethical high level repairer would possibly offer to replace the weapon to maintain their reputation and honor. Buyer beware of the really low inexperienced repairer that may RP overconfidence but may break any weapon they touch. In which case, the one that RPs overconfidence or a conartist scam had best be very good at hiding from an enkidukai huntress; we are very good at catching our prey. ;)
I do have confidence in our devs that they are listening to our concerns and working to fix legitimate concerns. I thank them for their patience and openness to our feedback as we play in their world. \\o//
-
Going back to my D&D days I remember that even the most skilled fighter could roll a fumble and wind up cutting his best friend's head instead of hitting the monster he was attacking. Even a master craftsperson can screw up big time ( the the times you screw up like this get rarer as you master a skill). Likewise you could roll a critical hit and do a lot of extra damage to the monster you were attacking ( for the sword repair example once in a great while you should be actually to increase the overall quality of the item you are repairing). Seems like we should have something similar for crafting and in a way I think we have in the past since I see a fumble in smelting being when you slag an ore or ingot and making a 300Q item by a lower level crafter being the critical hit.
-
@Neko: Love the Pawn Star example. Again there is a lot of RP potential for crafters to get a good rep or a bad rep as a weapon/armor maintenance 'specialist'. Hopefully, it is on the devs to do list to tweak the system, making high level repairers have the best *giggle* cutting edge to keep our hunters and warriors weapons in the best condition as the weapon understandably ages.
-
Carry this to in game, it highly reasonable to think that the first few times you try to repair something with a low/the starting level of repair on a character working on a high quality item, that you will ultimately do more damage to it than what it already had done to it. Work on lower quality items to see better results with your low repair level, and work on raising your repair level higher to expect to have better results on repairing higher quality items. At least, that's how I understand things.
I was tempted to say that repair needed tuning before, and now requires fixing. However, I see your point now, how it's planned to be, and indeed how your tuning will be difficult (and frustrating for repairing players, eh eh).
I'd still like to know, out of curiosity, a little more detail on that particular project, for I can see at least two objectives:
- one will always damage something he tries to repair until he reaches a certain level. (For example, let's pretend Repair skills go up to 300, he will always damage a Q100 object until he reaches 100 in Repair skill). This looks like what is described along this thread.
- one will actually repair, not damage, but repair better with a higher skill, with the occasional failure or fumble. This is what happens with other crafts, so it would be consistent. (Getting a slag is rare with Metallurgy).
Well, the money part will also have to balance itself to make Repair viable skills. What I really wanted to remind with this post is that repair jobs are an essential part of a "medieval" world, as opposed to a modern, consumerist one. The weapon makers will have to suffer heavily at some point from the concurrence of :devil: weapon repairers... :whistling:
-
Carry this to in game, it highly reasonable to think that the first few times you try to repair something with a low/the starting level of repair on a character working on a high quality item, that you will ultimately do more damage to it than what it already had done to it. Work on lower quality items to see better results with your low repair level, and work on raising your repair level higher to expect to have better results on repairing higher quality items. At least, that's how I understand things.
I started a new character to "test" balance from the ground up, and this doesn't match up to what I'm seeing.
With weapon repair 0, I'm only allowed to try to repair a few select daggers, short swords etc. No talk about even attempting to repair a high quality item.
With weapon repair 0 and a short sword at 17/50, I was able to repair it to something like 24/47 in my first try. That wasn't so bad! It also gave me 5 PP on the spot, which is more than I gained from wearing it down by fighting. Subsequent tries (two or three of them) repaired the sword to 43/43, and left me with weapon repair 1 (and 5 PP each time).
What I really like is that the actual practice needed seems a bit more reasonable (lower) than before.
Perhaps the system is only bogus at high levels? Because so far I'm very pleased with how this works. :)
-
what the people here are complaining about is about repairing them when they are in perfect conditions.
-
To be more exact it is repair of very slight damage because if your weapon is x/x quality you cannot repair it at all unless the first x is a result of rounding up. It might be a good idea to add a decimal place to the current quality so that 50/50 means exactly that and not 49.9/50. It certainly appears to me that such fractional damages are fairly common. I suppose it might depend on how skilled you are with a particular weapon and how weak a foe is. There ought to be some consideration for physical conditions determining damage but it doesn't seem like there is.
-
Has nothing to do with rounding. If you slightly damage your weapon (to 49.9/50) and start sharpening and filing it, the end result will be less than 49.9. Depending on your repair skill. If you are unskilled (0), you will indeed repair it to 47/47ish. Actually, if you repair a 0/50 dagger, you will probably end up with 37/37 after 5 repairs or so. An unskilled repairer will ruin a weapon, as it should. Either learn to repair (so you need less repairs to fix a weapon and damage it less), have someone with very high repair skill repair it for you, or buy a new one (whichever is cheaper or easier).
-
Unless something has changed, very slight damage does not show. More than once in the previous versions I have been able to repair a weapon that was apparently undamaged for example I'd fight a rogue with a short sword I had just looted and afterwards it would still be showing 50/50 but the repair would proceed. This would indicate to me that the quality displayed had been rounded up as there was actual damage to the weapon that could not be seen. Perhaps I should make a feature request for the decimal place or perhaps it is entirely irrelevant.
-
Lanarel: indeed, a novice would ruin a blade. Still, an expert repairer should not have a repair take a blade from Q298/300 to Q290/290...
-
I was repairing a saber, which was only very slightly damaged, and it was 299/299. When I repaired it it instantly went down to 278 quality.
-
Lanarel: indeed, a novice would ruin a blade. Still, an expert repairer should not have a repair take a blade from Q298/300 to Q290/290...
An expert repairer would know not to be so stupid to put his repair tools on an almost perfect blade. Also, if it went from 300 to 290, you are far from an expert (in skill).
-
Lanarel: indeed, a novice would ruin a blade. Still, an expert repairer should not have a repair take a blade from Q298/300 to Q290/290...
An expert repairer would know not to be so stupid to put his repair tools on an almost perfect blade. Also, if it went from 300 to 290, you are far from an expert (in skill).
The crux of the problem: what IS weapon repair supposed to be? Are we trying to represent the normal PM processes for a blade (oiling and sharpening)? Or are we talking about repair of more severe damage (nicked and burred edges, hooked or damaged points, bends, and other forms of battle damage)?