PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Kuiper7986 on May 10, 2003, 01:15:29 am
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I think guns should be a in the game, but to make it flow with the PS gameline. I\'m not talking about M16A2s,
Ak-47s, or HK G36k, I\'m talking about Single Action Rifles, which requires you to reload after one bullet. I think being able to use a gun should require a special quest from \"The Gods of PS,\" in which you must do a quest to recieve a special weapon. This is how it can work.
This is what kinda of gun I mean:
http://www.iar-arms.com/images/sharpccrbc457030.jpg
How to get one:
You get one by doing a quest (a weak gun but better than not having a gun) or you can get a gun by buying one. There will be stores around the PS world, but when you try to go inside you get kicked out from the gunkeeper saying, \"Hey! The Gods didn\'t allow you in here.\" Or you can smith one, but you need a very high smithing experience to make a gun.
Costs and Prices:
A Gun should be expensive to everyone. Depending on the quality of the gun it should be priced at the quality of the gun. Ammo should also be taken into consideration. Ammo can also be smithed but will require more experience than making a gun, so it\'ll force you to by ammo, and buying large quantities will not be cheap. Also ammo should be priced depending what kind of ammo it is. There should be like ammo made of different ores from the stuff that people can go mining for or they can be regular bullets but you can add status effects by using it with different chemicals or spells. Like if your an alchemist or something you can make Poison Ammo or if you\'re a priest, you can make Holy Ammo or something.
Fighting:
This is how a gun would fight. First it depends on the weight, a heavier gun would mean slower firing time and a lighter can would mean faster firing time. Also a tempo can be set depending on how fast you can reload and aim. I think there should be a \"gun skill\" that could determine aiming time, firing time, and a reloading time. Also I think you should be able to change your ammo type during fighting, but in doing that you lose that attack phase of your turn. Guns should also be weaker than swords, cuz the blow of a sword is much deadlier than a bullet wound. Also to help that, guns should be long-ranged. Meaning he can attack from kinda far (not very far) but within allotted distances and it should have a 99% hit rate, since they\'re accurate.
ONE MORE TIME, WHEN I MEAN GUNS I\'M NOT TALKING ABOUT Machine Guns, or anything like that! I\'m talking about Old Guns that can potentially do well in the game!
Take this as an example:
Let saying I see a monster and I\'m going to that monster. I get my gun ready. He attacks me first. Then I shoot back. Then I have to reload one bullet which will take a few seconds, then I have to aim again (which will be the main tempo), then he attacks me, then I shoot back again, then I have to reload, then aim again....etc.
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To be very friendly to you, and to be very friendly to myself, I\'ll shorten my answer down to one word ... \"No\" :)
I mean, find 1 error here:
Swords - Wands - Bows - Knives - Arrows - Sticks - Bones - ---> Guns (!?) <---
Btw, that image of the rifle... It belongs in the western movies, you know... U.S.A. in the 1800\'s? Well, this happens to be a \"kind of\" medieval game... Think medieval, don\'t think realistic.
Enjoy
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hmm that\'s true, I was going to say Muskets, but it\'d be too complicated, but technically the \"gun\" came out during the medieval time just before the Baroque period started. Well thanks for your input, but guns like I mentioned would still be cool.
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Yeah, okay... But still, I don\'t think guns would fit into a swordfighting, bowshooting, medieval kind of game. :P
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I understand where you\'re getting at and I agree with you, but it would be nice to choose another long-range weapon other than a bow and arrow :)
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u know Medieval
bows, arrows, couple different types,
staffs
pots of boiling oil
dead cows over the tower wall at the enemy
you know that kind of stuff
the game is set in medieval time,, NOT GUNS
maybe firecracker/works in china but NOT GUNS
NOT GUNS
go play counterstrike if you want guns
we deal with medieval weapons
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a gun is a medieval weapon......
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no its not its more of a renaissance weapon medieval was with swords as main weapons for battle not guns
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knights were part of the medieval period. Due to the invention of the gun, no matter what kind of armour knights had, it still killed them, muskets were invented during the late medieval period.
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I personally like this idea. The earliest gun was known as the arquebus during the late medieval times, though cannons were created and used earlier. I believe that the arquebus had the tendency to blow up when about to fire... Also, gunpowder was invented by the Chinese during the medieval times in Europe. Anyway, who said that some races aren\'t creative? *Thinks about Dwarves and Age of Wonders* Ooh, bombardier...
Anyway, perhaps there could be guns, with strict limitations. Maybe without the quest idea, but the reload time is a good idea. Maybe there could also be a chance of the gun blowing up in your face when using it... Also, smoke from the gun would be interesting as well.
Medieval ranged weapons that I can think of: Shortbow, longbow, crossbow, arquebus (gun), cannon (gun?)
Will add more later.
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I don\'t think it\'s that good an idea, not really because it\'s an anachronism, but because I wonder \"what\'s a gun going to do to say... a mountain troll or a dragon, that a mithril crossbow with elvenhair string can\'t do?\" I mean, in most RPG\'s there are already very powerful weapons available (magic weaponry, weaponry made out of special materials etc.). Why would you even need guns?
Moraudin
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Here\'s an idea:
Cannons
You know, for any castles/fortresses. Not really accurate and the ball doesn\'t go very far. I know for sure that they had them back in the High Medieval Age...Battle of Crecy i\'m pretty sure!
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That\'s true, why would you need a gun if you had a mithril sword or Adamantine arrows? That\'s why I brought up the idea of using a gun. I said you can have different types of ammo, like Mithril Bullets or Adamantine bullets. If you fight a dragon you can use a like Holy Bullets if you are a priest and you enchant the bullets. Also like I said a gun would be weaker than an arrow or sword, but for that it\'ll make up in accuracy and distance.
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I like the idea of muskets +
you people may note that PS isn\'t very Medieval in the way it looks +
its a magical world why couldn\'t they make muskets the muskets wouldn\'t become the be end and all end of weapons because of there super long reload time in the time it takes for you to reload a musket you can easily walk up and stab a guy in the stomach
I mean i don\'t want a boring Medieval world with no orginal concepts thats boring i mean LOTR had the big bomb at helms deep, Dugeon Seige had a troll with a steam mech so why can\'t PS have a musket
oh and if you watch the world of warcraft trailer you\'ll note they have muskets in that
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i agree with Gronomist and others, guns just aint right.
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I wouldn\'t say that they have no place in PS. But I dunno if it would be fun enough to bother adding it to the game.
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look a giant city in a stalitite lit by crystals just ain\'t right look the point i\'m trying to make is you have to try new things if we don\'t then we end up with another everquest or daoc and the game will end up using the same tried and tested and boring method of gameplay that every other MMORPG has try somthing new
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Whoever said this game was set in the medieval age? Personaly the polythesium of multiple gods fighting and the whole creation trend of the storyline reminds me a lot more of ancient times. Something like greece 400bc. or maybe rome. Ofcourse you can\'t draw any simularities with our worlds past but i\'m just saying the genneral trend of the storyline is that of an ancient age in my opinion. It\'s really a joke to throw in riffles and such just because \"hey, that\'d be soooo cool\", why? Is there no such thing as a good plot in games anymore?
- spony
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Okay if a gun was included what would it do with the plot, it\'s just a weapon. Also the game takes place in medieval times, its stated on the main website.
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http://www.planeshift.it/setting.html
Our objective is to create a persistent world in a fantasy setting, in which every player will create his character and will be able to live with maximum realism.
Maybe you\'re just seeing what you want to see? I don\'t know it looks like a fantasy setting to me. Course it might be just me but when i think fantasy, I don\'t think guns. But yeah lord of the rings would have been SOOOO MUCH COOOLER if aragorn had a gun.
Yeah why would this ruin the plot it\'s just a weapon, you\'re probably right.
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*likes this thread because peeps have managed to intelectualy attack the antiFPS sentiment amongst some people and devs*
I\'m all for guns and i love fps\'s just as much as the next the devs are really working hard at making this game truely unique and say that they want no fps like stuff in game so I\'m kinda torn but i figure that once they get a bow \'n arrow in, it won\'t be much programming in having a single, slow as hell shot rifle that wouldn\'t be much good for OwN3g anyone (pardon my crappy leet speak, I was never into that) and would only serv as an acient equivalent of a sniper, you know, for guild war battles. melee, then bows are semi close range and old school ass single shot rifles are long range. Muskets prolly wouldn\'t work as long range due to its crappy accuracy and we already have bows for semi close range weapons but it should go in cause you want to add some quirkyness to weapon functions and weapon variety, I mean i don\'t want to see everyone running around with swords, or bows.
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I didn\'t really mean it as a first person shooter. It\'d still be in third-person, the same as fighting with a sword and stuff, except with a gun.
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no guns,
only magic and other misile weapons as bows and such
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Guns should be used, what if you get tired of using a bow and arrow and you still want to use a ranged weapon. Well then you can use a gun. You guys assume too much that a gun would be cheap and kill everyone in one hit and it doesn\'t fit the medieval setting. Well infact, guns aren\'t a cheap 1-shot kill weapon and they fit the medieval period.
When I talk about a gun, I\'m not talking about an M60E3 or FN Squad Automatic Weapon 249 7.62mm Machine Gun. That\'s the point I can\'t stress enough. I\'m not referring to Modern Weapons. I\'m referring to old-Style Weaponry that would fit nicely into the games setting.
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I think that guns would be pointless if you could shoot and aim better with, say, a longbow, than a gun...
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There was the (sp?) harquebus, but I think at the very most gun-wise should be crossbow like weapons that could throw rocks/crystals.
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I believe that the old-age guns were extremely inaccurate, tedious to load, but had great power. And the fact that they blew up in the users face. Anyway, there are more ranged weapons other than bows and arrows. Throwing spears, daggers, shuriken, stones, slings, crossbows, multiple-arrow crossbows, magic, ice shards, sand, dead mice, live mice, and more. Much, much more. Adding in a gun will not change the fantasy setting much. Age of Wonders II: The Wizard\'s Throne is a game based on strategy, and it allowed guns for certain races, even though I think the only ones were the swashbuckler of the Humans and steam tank of the Dwarves. And cannons were allowed for all races. Anyway, here are my ideas to allow guns into the game:
Chance of blowing up and severely injuring user (why not?)
Expensive
Smoke
Powerful but inaccurate
The only problem would be finding the materials needed for the gunpowder, which happens to be sulfur, charcoal, and pottasium nitrate. Of course, I used dictionary.com to find that, so there may be differences between now and then... Ingredients, I mean.
Anyway, FPS games just happen to have guns for mysterious reasons. They can have bows and arrows quite easily, as well as slings, spears, and everything else I covered above.
By the way, explorer, I believe you spelled \'harquebus\' correctly. I think it\'s also spelled \'arguebus,\' but I\'m not too sure.
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The only way I can see something like this happening. It would hate to happen long in to the game?s story line. Like a year or two real time. And the only one I can see affording this or having the technology is high ranking solders of some of the wealthiest kingdoms. But these would only come about from the invention of gunpowder. So cannons would have to come first. And to any non-believers that cannons where in middle ages. They where developed late medieval ages before the renascence. So I?m shear they didn?t disappear for a couple hundred years.
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I have an idea. How about the alchemist can make the gunpoweder. After he does know \"chemistry\" so being an alchemist can be the only job where you can make gunpowder. Oryou can buy it at a store for an expensive price.
The Smith can make the gun and the musket balls.
Then the priest, alchemist, or blah can alter the musket ball and give it special status effects. Of course you\'d have to have enough experience in what ever jobs they may be to enchant or alter musket balls.
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Or, you could have the gunpowder in the tips of arrows, and then with a magical spell, you\'d light it on fire, and BOOM! :P
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oh WTF!!!! I didn\'t think about that!!! You can always alter the tip of the arrow!
uh oh I feel flames coming............. :)
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an old school musket would be a nice addition and would fit into the medieval/fantasy setting and this doesn\'t mean like in other threads we are talking about a FPS I mean if you can have bows and cross bow with out a FPS type combat system then why can\'t you have a musket to
I also like the idea of having to search for the ingrediants of gun powder and having to get the musket balls of the smith and being able to enchant the balls is a really good idea to
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ya but I gave up on the gun idea because Planeshift is what about the people wants and heh the people dont\' seem to like the gun idea so I dropped it cuz I don\'t want to be marked as a hated person around here.
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This will clear everything up.. TIMES DONT MATCH UP.. seems as thought u didnt do ur homework or skipped that class
Early 1500s The matchlock Arquebus was developed as the first hand-held firearm.
1500s The Damascus barrel developed in the Near East.
Circa 1500 The button lock was the first improvement on the match lock, and the first \"trigger.\"
Late 1500s Spring air guns were invented.
Circa 1517 The wheellock was invented in Nuremburg.
1526 Fabbrica D\'Armi Pietro Beretta S.p.A is formed in Italy. Oldest continuously operating manufacturer in the world.
Circa 1580 The Snaphaunce flintlocks were developed.
1600 The 17th Century
Early 1600s Pneumatic air guns introduced.
1600s The blunderbus was introduced.
Circa 1600 The dog lock , which featured a safety to secure the half cock position, was developed.
1639 Rhode Island colony passed law limiting deer season.
1700 The 18th Century
1750 The first Kentucky rifles were manufactured on the American frontier.
1750 Contriner of Vienna designed a 15 shot compressed air gun.
1758-1836 Ezekiel Baker. English gunsmith who produced the Baker rifle.
1760s The \"Brown Bess\" British musket was standardized.
1761-1883 Nicholas Noel Boutet. A famous French gunsmith known for his artistic decoration of firearms.
1763 Eli Whitney founded the Whitney Arms Company, which applied mass production techniques to rifle manufacture.
1775 Committees of Safety began providing arms to American patriots.
1775 John Wilkinson builds the first true boring machine, making bored rifle barrels possible.
Middle Ages, period in the history of Europe that lasted from about ad 350 to about 1450. At the beginning of the Middle Ages, the western half of the Roman Empire began to fragment into smaller, weaker kingdoms. By the end of the Middle Ages, many modern European states had taken shape. During this time, the precursors of many modern institutions, such as universities and bodies of representative government, were created.
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just a reminder to all of you ...this is NOT a mediaevil game ...it\'s a completely different world ...i haven\'t seen any trace nor hint of gunpowder in the story so far ....so guns are definetly out (from my point of view)
plus i think that guns would SERIOUSLY sitck out of the surrounding ...nah, i\'m still heavily against it
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I\'m not sure about the gun-idea, but IF there would be guns in the game I would like to see something like the rifles in warcraft 3.
(http://www.blizzard.com/images/war3/conceptart/rifleman-large.jpg)
Yes, this is a different world, and therefore rifles isn\'t possible, however swords like we know them isn\'t possible either, and neither are bows, shurikens, catapults, gunpowder, spears etc. At least they would look different from our medival weapons.
I suggest that the devs create an arsenal of completely unique weapons specially designed for the world of PS. ;)
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NO GUNS GUNS ARE RUBBISH WE NEED PROPER WEAPONS BOWS SWORDS AND STUFF!!!!!.
Anyway guns would spoil the whole idea of the game someone with a gun would kill everything easily there should never be guns NEVER!!!!
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I\'m quite surprised a Dev hasn\'t stepped into this one yet, but I\'ll just throw my two cents in. Most of this is likely repeating what others have said, but I would like to bring it all together and culminate these thoughts into
If we are to abandon all references to the history of our own world, I must say that the very essence of Planeshift is what makes guns obsolete. That essence is both magic and abandonment. Okay, you might be saying, I get the magic, but what the heck do you mean by abandonment? Well, think of it this way: the real reason people create and play roleplaying games is so that, for however short or long a time, they can escape. They can abandon their own personal hell and the worldwide \'situation\', and escape into a world that is nothing like the one they live in, and they are who they want to be. Now, think of how strange it would be to walking along with an elven friend, talking of whether the merchant down the road\'s potions are effective or not worth spending your Trias on, and some fool runs up to you with a GUN! Now, that\'s obviously going to start reminding you of things that happen in OUR world. Of all things that could be added to a game, I believe that guns are the most mundane of artifacts. They take away from the atmosphere of a fantasy setting. Think about this: one can easily picture a bow that uses arrows crafted from an enchanted wood, with arrowheads that shine silver light, but can one truly picture in the same setting a gun that glows with a magical light or shoots flaming bullets? I sure can\'t. Perhaps I am a die-hard fantasy nut, but I\'m sorry to say I\'ve never finished a LOtR book (excluding the Hobbit) and I\'ve never played Everquest or Ultima Online.
Of all the things one could conjure up to make a game unique, I believe guns would be the last on the list. I don\'t mean to flame here, but next time, try thinking of something from your own imagination rather than something that is put to regular use today.
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that\'s cool I expected to be flamed but I\'m over the gun thing now, it doesn\'t mean I don\'t like guns, just that it shouldn\'t be implemented in this game. Well its really all up to the Devs.
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Valfaran says: \"and they are who they want to be\".
Well, I\'d love to play Gandalf for example, but I\'d rather not be him in real, he has way too much job to do and his world is quite dangerous ;) (well I wouldn\'t feel safe).
Or maybe you want to say \"and they play who they want to play\" :)
Anyway, you\'re true when you\'re saying that you should invent the story, not copy it from our real lives.
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Just my 2 cents;
I think they indeed could be added to the game, but as \'\'Very powerful, unique artifacts, with an unknown origin.\'\' There would be only a few of them in the whole world, and the player would have to go through very dangerous quests and cross very hard obstacles to get one of these relics.
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I dont think guns are a good idea, I agree they seem a little out of place
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I think guns seem to contradict the setting and feel of the game. I think however that magic and special weaponry could very easily replace guns. You could have lightning bolts fly from wands (and that would look like a lightning gun wouldn\'t it?) or some kind of magical crossbow with rapid fire (like a machine gun?) and such items would seem to blend better with the game compared to rifles and bayonets.
And... The effects would look better too!
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I will ask a simple question.
What do they add to the world?
In many games the inability of certain races to get certain things is balanced by other abilities. Currently I see nothing that guns would add.
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ok, at the risk of being
dixie chicked,
I\'m gonna just say one thing.
I want Guns because...there kewl
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You have throwing axes, bows, and spells. there is no need for guns. everything you are thinking about guns (power, smoke, rare), can be put into spells.
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Yeah, it guns in this game would be like....spam in a pretty can...
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Guns are just another range weapon, from a rules standpoint. They don\'t serve a gameplay purpose any different from, for example, crossbows.
Am I wrong here?
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Well, there is a difference between crossbows and guns. Guns is more powerful, but the accuraty is poor, while the crossbow is weaker but has better accuraty.
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While I assume Venges question to be completely rhetorical I will answer.
They provide nothing new under the current spectrum of things. If say Dwarves could not have any magic, and or bow, crossbows or in short any other distance attack then guns might be for them an equalizer of types.
Hell, even now we can argue that bows and crossbows are not necessary, but there is a feeling that they can be added quite well into the current game as a ?ranged melee attack? with disposable ammo. In most cases the target is at a loss of certain defenses, but in most cases the base damage would be lower for the ranged attacks?though in the right circumstances they would do roughly the same damage. In short it follows my philosophy of?the right tool for the right job.
Now, as for coolness factor?I see little that guns provide, just another area of weapons and alchemy. But add in questions like??if you are engulfed in flames and are carrying gunpowder, what happens to it??
In short, if we add chemically driven projectiles of any type, I would personally make them so dangerous to use that most people would not bother?making them pointless.
But, that is just my take, if anyone can add something that they add that would be really cool?then I would most likely reconsider.
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I dunno, all I could think of was changing the metal casing on the bullets:
Tin Bullets are just regular bullets
Silver Bullets would work against undead monsters
Diamond Bullets would punch through all but the strongest defenes, since diamonds are tough.
Gold Bullets would be a bit stronger than Tin Bullets but all it would really represent is your wealth
Then another idea would be like:
Emerald Bullets would do Earth Elemental damage
Ruby Bullets would cause Fire Elemental Damage
Sapphire Bullets would cause Water Elemental Damage
Peridot Bullets would cause Wind Elemental Damage
Onyx Bullets would cause Dark Elemental Damage
Opal Bullets would cause Holy Damage
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anyone read terry pratchett\'s men at arms?
a gun was made by this genious(spelling???? looks wrong to me...) then they caught the genius and took it (whence he made more stuff while in his tower not goin there tho) and gave it to the assassin\'s guild to protect... then an assassin stole it then the lead assassin stole it from him and hes goin to the top of some opera house killin random people.
long story slightly longer: make a badguy that uses a gun, but no player-owned guns. this guy can be an NPC that spawns somewhere with a different model maybe once in a long long while, lookin like a traveler, then sneaks into the museum where the gun is and takes it, then people see him walking toward a tall place and then he zones and then once every hour or so until he is killed (cant make im too strong can ya?) he shoots someone random in a vicinity of the tower(nothing bad happens to them besides dieing, no items lost/exp)
would be kind of interesting... everyone running around scared that they gonna get shot...
tons of problems with this but ish just my 2cents
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This could also be done through a player, while the guns are unique weapons, which no one can produce.
I agree, there is no great difference between gun and corssbow from a rule view. But is there one between bastard sword and normal sword? Or dagger and knife? In roleplay the rules of weapons are not that important. Sometimes you may want to stay with your hairy sword of the wolf, because it fits your druid role, and you deny the golden sword of firestorm, which would do two times the damage.
Guns could be a nice, while not powerful, alternative weapon.
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can i have a howitzer?
but seriously, what do guns add, just an alternative tool to roleplay with, my biggest question is why not add guns
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they just dont fit in with the game.. if you really wanna have guns go play some war game like wulfram or something.. i think guns would completly ruin the game they just dont fit in
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ok, if there are gonna be projectile weapons, wtf is wrong with a few rifles...notice i didn\'t say guns cause that\'d ruin the rp...lol
lets have pistols \'n rifles!
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i dont like guns at all sorry but if theere are Rifles in the game they should be veeery slow releading time, not very accurate, certainly not very powerfull and have the chance to blow up in your face
oh and if it rains(i wonder when thatll happen :D) the gunpowder will get wet and not work
i dont like the idea of guns
now on the other hand cannons to seige a castle i like:)
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i\'m still strongly against guns ...it would spoil the game ..it just doesn\'t FEEL right ...i don\'t mind bows or even magical staffs ...but guns (modern or old) and/or alien(-ish) weapons are a bit off i think
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I agree putting guns in a fantasy MMORPG such as PlaneShift is the worst idea ever. Maybe not the worst, but it would be stupid to have guns in the game. Your character wears armor, give him a gun, think of how rediculous that would look. I don\'t care if guns were around in the medeival ages, so were swords and swords are cooler and they fit the world better.
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ok, guns don\'t really mattter to me...but if you don\'t have guns, you better have something damn good to make up for it...and guys, exploding chemicals is not it .
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Originally posted by cmhitman
ok, guns don\'t really mattter to me...but if you don\'t have guns, you better have something damn good to make up for it...and guys, exploding chemicals is not it .
Or what ?
:D
Anyway it?s rather simple?there is no reason for them to be in, as we won?t have hyper velocity rotating machine crossbows?it just won?t be there.
What exactly is the reason that guns are necessary is what I am asking.
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NOOOOOOOO! NO GUNS! I hate guns in fantasy games! Look at M&M7!
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I honestly don\'t see why people are so against the idea of using guns- as long as they are incorporated properly, they would be just like any other ranged weapon, kinda a stopgap between a bow and a crossbow.
While they were powerful, they were inaccurate above 50 yards, and not as good at piercing armour as crossbows. A good soldier in the napoleonic wars (which while in the 1900\'s the gun technology used had not changed much in musketry) could fire 3 rounds a minute, a crossbow (depending on it\'s size) could fire only once. A Bow could in theory fire multiple times.
And those people who don\'t like the idea of guns could just not use them.
Of course the only problem with the whole stereotypical bow= fast firing, weak and medium accuracy crossbow= slow firing, strong and hoigh accuracy thing is the English longbow. A trained archer could fire off more shots than a crossbow, at longer range with higher accuracy and with a better ability to pierce armour (thanks to the Bodkin arrow heads). Of course it took many, many years to train an archer.
Just my two pennys ;)
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Here is a very simple answer as to why we\'re opposed to guns:
THEY ARE NOT NECESSARY!
With crossbows, shortbows, and longbows, there is no need for gunpowder-fired weapons. The fact that people are trying to compensate by saying, \"Oh, they\'ll be weak and take a long time to load, etc.\" makes it even more obsolete! Who would want a terribly poor weapon like that, when they could get a perfectly good bow for less money (since people seem to lean towards making them rare items)? There are also other setbacks to guns, as well: you can\'t retrieve bullets, and you can\'t repair them either. So what is the point of having another useless item in the game?
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And what\'s the point of having a shortbow when you can have a longbow, which is the same accuracy, same rate of fire but more powerful and longer ranged?
The answer is to give people the choice to use what they want. About the bullets- who care\'s you can\'t retrieve them? They\'re a blob of metal, no more, no less. Bullets would be very cheap, but the charges to fire them not so cheap. Of course in the Napoleonic wars the two were put into a paper sachet that the soldier would rip the top off with his teeth, pour the gunppowder down the barrel, spit the bullet, ram it and then fire. Also a gun could cause fear in animals or people due to the loud noise.
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I don\'t understand this facination with guns. If you want to play a game with guns there are plenty of choices out there for you. This however is a fantasy rpg game ie. magic and elementary hack and slash weapons in some displaced world. The theme is not technology it is myth and frankly it will ruin the plot.
I\'m beginning to wonder how many of you kids already have an NRA membership.
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Kid?!? I\'m 19 mate, hardly a kid.
And as for the guns ruining the plot, I would point you in the direction of Warcraft 3, and I have this funny feeling, the Wheel of Time series of books (although there aren\'t guns in it yet, one of the characters is getting close to figuring it out).
I honestly don\'t think that if they are implemented properly, they will spoil the feel of the game- we\'re not talking about going around with an OICW here, more like a tube of metal with an explosive charge in it. It would be cool if you could fight in close combat with it as well, using it as a club or using the bayonet.
To give people an idea of the kind of guns that would fit in with this, I would point them the the \"Brown Bess\" musket (British Pattern)- I\'ll see if I can find a picture. Heh, those things had bayonets more like short swords than anything else!
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Here ya go: (http://www.militaryheritage.com/images/indiabess1.jpg)
More pictures can be found here: http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket1.htm
Anyways, they probably won\'t be incorporated so it\'s a moot point, I still reckon they\'d be cool though :)
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Although I do not need guns to have a good game, having them, done good, would not be bad either.
However, if any gun is ever added, something I doubt, I would advice only fantasy steamtech.
Fantasy Steamtech is like the things you find in games such as Warhammer: Steam Cannons, Tar Guns, Heavy Ballistas powered by steam, etc.
Steamtech (a more medieval version of Steampunk) can make a game very interesting. But it also can ruin it, specially when you are trying to get a magical based medieval mithology.
Steamtech, if used, should be extremely rare. Dwarves would be the most logical groupd to have these tipes of advances, and even there it should be rare.
Note: Machines do not specifically mean advanced technology. Several machines where avaliable during the medieval times. And, since this is fantasy, you can tweak that a little. Add baloons, flying machines and the such, but do not add submarines and electric weapons (electric weapons where a mistake made in Dungeon Siege, where they definitely didn\'t fit).
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i hope they dont add guns, im pretty sure this game is placed in a period where guns are not existant, this game is far before that.
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Personally i think guns simply wouldnt look right in this fantasy kind of game. no way devs would put guns in the game anyway... its just wrong.
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it could go either way but as many ppl have said time and time again.. it just feels weird.. out of place... its like havin a nice car driving around the the colloseum instead of chariots.....
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I agree with you, Bonez. As I said in an earlier post, they are extremely out of place. But I\'m surprised a Dev hasn\'t stepped in and said, \"No way!\" or \"Yes, it\'s a possibility.\" Perhaps they themselves are debating it. Someone should start a poll so we can see the actual standings on this subject.
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hmmmmm....I didnt\' this my this post I started would really get this far.
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I was watching TV and I realised that there is a good example of these kind of guns in a program- it\'s called Sharpe (it\'s British though so I don\'t know how well spread about it is). I thought I\'d mention this just in case anyone was interested in looking how they might be incorporated into Planeshift if included.
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chemicals and spells is cool, but you cannot tell me that people didn\'t hunt. hunting mobs and how this skill relates to in game pvp is essential because majority of people like fighting and conflict
people think:
Bows are weak....simple as that.
running around cocking and firing bows...people are gonna laugh.
the only way this could work is if you have amazing animations and models witch i\'m sure you will, but the settings team, and there anti gun frenzy will prolly try and dull down the weapons to tend to the rp freaks.
this anti weapons and pro rp crap is agitating.
what the team does is incorporate
anything that a majority of the community wants as long as they can justify it as fitting but even when someone in the community researchs and finds that guns did exist way back we still get opposition. Right now ps has no exitement. Guns ad a wow factor to a game, right now, planeshift has no \"wow\" in it.
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maybe a archubus (prolly misspelled it) like a gun with an insanaly long reload time and it could be a quest for the highest crafters in the game.. you know it would be not very plausable in a fight one shot 5 rounds of reload in which you vcan drop your firearm and get distracted . it would also have a fail ratio. it would be more for first attack like youd get highlevel crafters or warriors with lots of cash riding on a horst shoot once then advance to meleeand not use it for the rest of the time the accuracy on the first guns where very shory and reloading em in battle was impossible. it would also be very expensive and difficult to make the ammo (another good way for a high level crafter to make money) if this itm was introduced i think buying it from a store is out of the question...
if limited and realistic as far as the dificulty learning how to use and such i think it would be a good distraction for very highlevel players
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Nadius has a good point. Ancient guns where terrible during combat, and only offered a good help at the begginings of it. And that remained the same until the very XIX century, when guns, although more accurate, where so slow to reload and so expensive, that captains and generals where the ones to carry hand guns, and they usually had 4 or 6 of them, since they simply threw the gun after shooting.
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Originally posted by cmhitman
Bows are weak....simple as that.
running around cocking and firing bows...people are gonna laugh.
Riddle me this, Hitman: how many people laugh at Legolas for running around cocking and firing bows? No one! Why? Because it FIT THE SETTING!
anti gun frenzy will prolly try and dull down the weapons to tend to the rp freaks.
this anti weapons and pro rp crap is agitating.
Just because people are anti-guns doesn\'t mean they are anti-weapons. I\'m sorry to burst your bubble, but this game was written with the intention to be roleplay-oriented. You don\'t have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. So why do you call pro-rp crap if it\'s an rp game?
what the team does is incorporate
anything that a majority of the community wants as long as they can justify it as fitting but even when someone in the community researchs and finds that guns did exist way back we still get opposition.
You contradict yourself here. The team incorporates what they justify as fitting; why do you think they would find something from the such-and-suchth century Europe fitting? How do you know the materials used to make gunpowder exist in the planet this game is situated in? Just because a technological advance occurred on Earth doesn\'t mean it would happen in Ylaikum.
Right now ps has no exitement. Guns ad a wow factor to a game, right now, planeshift has no \"wow\" in it.
Here\'s a hyphenated word to answer best this statement:
Pre-Alpha .
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Hey Valfaran, I read a post you made a while back you said something about....
\"With crossbows, shortbows, and longbows, there is no need for gunpowder-fired weapons. The fact that people are trying to compensate by saying, \"Oh, they\'ll be weak and take a long time to load, etc.\" makes it even more obsolete! Who would want a terribly poor weapon like that, when they could get a perfectly good bow for less money (since people seem to lean towards making them rare items)? There are also other setbacks to guns, as well: you can\'t retrieve bullets, and you can\'t repair them either. So what is the point of having another useless item in the game?\"
I\'m not taking any sides except for me. I will see this from both sides.
You said why should guns be there if they\'re weaker and take a long time to load. We\'ll what if we said guns are the strongest weapon in the game and they don\'t need to be reloaded. That puts pro-gun-users in a no win situtation if they wanted in the game. See so no matter what they have said it wouldn\'t have made a difference because you were trying to make a contradiction based on their own statements and use that against them, because you were taking the very reasons why it should be added in the game, so there\'s a no-win situation for pro-gun-users.
From an anti-gun-user\'s point of view, that statement was the winning lottery ticket. They were thinking,\"BINGO!\" We just found a reason why guns should be in the game because we knew they just said having guns sucked. Also anti-gun-users seem to have the majority right now, since everyone probably wants to play a real RPG without the hassles of real life they\'re gonna hate the gun idea.
Conclusion:
(These are in my opinion)
Pro-Gun-Users: You\'ll need to show more reasons why the gun should be in the game other than the fact, guns reload slow, are generally weaker, and quests. Bring out more positive notes about using a gun and try to show the anti-gun-users what can be beneficial about using a gun. Remember you guys are miniority on using guns, you\'ll need to work harder and even try convicing the Dev\'s maybe?
Anti-Gun-Users: You guys keep trying show reasons why guns shouldn\'t be used. Keep trying to find any contradictory statements about the gun and use it against them because they might run out of reasons. Remember you guys have the majority, so you have more thinking power than the pro-gun-users.
Remember, I ain\'t doing this for anyone, I\'m doing this for myself, and everything I just stated in my own opinion, you don\'t have to believe anything I say, or take anything I say for word.
Thank you have a nice day :)
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I believe you have misinterpereted my statement a bit. What I mean is that people seem to want to compensate by making them weak, but their compromise makes the guns SO weak that they are obsolete; making it a wiser purchase to simply get a crossbow.
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he thinks he has pro gun and anti gun peeps coined and maybe he does to and extent but I don\'t care,
I want GUNSSS!!!
if you want cool projectile weapons too, without being a wimpy ass archer,
then scream with me!
GUNSSSSS!!!!!
GUNNNSSS!!!!!
GUNNNSS!!!!
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For me personally, it is an atmosphere thing. I do not think any implementation of firearm would work in this game. I like the idea of more ranged weapons, like, (this includes existing/planned):
-Bow and Arrows
-Crossbows and bolts
-Throwing knives, (please dont call them throwing daggers, too much confusion for some people)
-Shuriken aka Throwing stars
-Darts, (can be poison modded)
-Blowgun and needles (can be modded for poison)
-Sling and \'bullet\' (dont even try to compare a sling and a gun based on the bullet reference)
-Rocks (could be fun for more savage type characters)
This doesnt include the many options for siege-type warfare if the game heads that way, (balistae, catapults, etc). I think the only implementation of firearm that has a chance of working well with the atmosphere is the arquebus. Even then, I think the options presented above would be more viable due to the firing rate of an arquebus. You could get more shots off with any of the other options, and all are more acurate. Anyways, thats my thought on the topic. Thanks for reading!
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I\'m not to keen on the guns Idea. Although there are one type of guns that Might be able to work in this game. and I belive it was in Final Fantasy Tactics that we got to see them. Magical Guns that Cast spells Like there was a gun that cast either Ice1, Ice 2 or if you were lucky Ice 3. You don\'t even have to call them guns besides that which prob would never happen I don\'t see guns really fitting in too well in this game but whatever.
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a way i can imagine a firearm in PS :
an one-shot arquebuse , loaded with shrapnell and a bajonett at the top.so you have one (perhaps small vertically area) attack and then it is only a spear. to reload you need a tradeskiller, which rebuilds the fire mechanism.
to fire you need ranged skill, for spearlike you need melee.
so this offers the melee guys an usefull opening attack without changing weapon and the ranged guys an good hard finishing attack.
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anyone here ever read the disc world books? theirs a banned invention called a gonne (hell it is a gun really) but basically it fires bits of copper using gun powder and is effectively the same idea as a muscet, but more do it your self, more unreliable, outlawed, and extremely expensive.
If guns were implemented, why not just make ammo, the guns themselves and the stuff to power them only (available from alchemists.) expensive and hard to get, that way gunners would be happy (hell they got a gun) and everyone else would be happy coz theres not many of them, and even the ones who have them can only fire a few shots before turning to another weapon (which theyd obviously be disadvantaged with)
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My 2 cents
Gun VS Fireball. Nuff said
lol
Guns would be interesting but why have that when I can use magic?
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I don\'t know about guns in the game but I wouldn\'t mind a crossbow though...
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at first i didnt like the idea of guns but i agree that they would be pretty cool..... if they are hard to get and slow reload and stuff then they would be good, also there could be other projectiles like rocks, and javalins
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Originally posted by Evil_k9
at first i didnt like the idea of guns but i agree that they would be pretty cool..... if they are hard to get and slow reload and stuff then they would be good, also there could be other projectiles like rocks, and javalins
That\'s true but if guns are added and they are really hard to get and when you do get them they have really slow reaction and reload time, who would really want them? If you are on a quest and get charged by an evil 8 headed fire breathing dragon-bunny, would you want something that takes a long time to reuse? Especially if you miss...
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Ok, here we go again.
For historical sake, an arquebus was a medieval shotgun. What most of you guys seem to be after is a musket, like the one I showed you.
As for the \"Who wants a one shot weapon?\" question, I once again point you towards the napoleonic wars. When there was not enough time to reload, or th enemy were fleeing, they would attach their bayonets and charge. And as well as this, Crossbows are pretty much one shot weapons as well.
And for another point, I will refer to the book Harlequin, which said:
\"A battallion of longbow archers could easilly defeat a battalion of wellingtons veterans armed with smoothbore muskets\". The point of a gun is that while it is hard hitting, it is innacurate and short range, but piss easy to use- harder to reload quickly, but to fire \"Aim, pull button\". It\'s the same as a crossbow, except the crossbow is more accurate and longer ranged.
Also in the napoleonic wars, the way to make muskets effective was to group them together and mass fire them.
And by the 19th century, muskets were standard issue to infantry men, but there was still a large amount of hand to hand combat using the muskets and bayonets as weapons.
Again, I will say watch the TV program Sharpe, you\'ll see what I\'m on about.
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as Morte said, the early rifles was inaccurate as hell.
has anyone seen the \"The Patriot\" (with Mel Gibson)? there they were using muskets and the battles between the english and american armies was realistic. they stand perhaps in 20 to 50 meters in front of each other and fired aimed shots. and more than the half of the bullets miss.
AFAIK arqubuises wasnt load with one bullet, they were filled with a load of shrapnells, and worked more like a one shot shotgun.
but the crossbow wasnt a one shot weapon. there was a loading mechanism for every crossbow. Heavy, but it allowed to stretch(word?) a crossbow fast. AFAIK you can get 2-3 shots per minute with crossbow.( a skilled bowmean could fire some times more.)
but as morte said, the crossbow was easier to use. (a bow could have the same penetration of armor and has higher accuray at long distances, but to achieve this the bowmen must be very strong and well trained.)
in the medievial battles, the normal crossbow/bow man wasnt like a nowadays sniper. they were more like machinegunner. the goal was to fire as much as possible arrows per second indirect with at a high angle at the enemy. and it is easier to get a high number of good crossbowmen than a high number of good bowmen.
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why do we want guns? because it\'s a dual wapon, ranged and melee i take my one shot from a distance then get in and duke it out with my bayonett, or something like this
http://store.yahoo.com/gun-sword/aac-178.html
now that\'s a gun i would like to see in PS
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Alright, I\'ve read most of the topics, and here I am to throw my 2 cents into the pool.
*cracks knuckles*
Alright, first, IF a gun-type weapon is ever implimented by the staff, there are a few things we should all keep in mind. (some of these have already been said, so I\'m just condensing it):
- gun-types would be HIGH technology to this world, even very very crude guns. Therefore, they would be grotesquely expensive and rare.
- being high technology, they shouldn\'t be implimented until further along in Planeshifts lifespan...we don\'t even have our swords yet, so calm down.
- guns do seem out of place in a magic-weilding society, which means if they are used, it should be done by those WITHOUT much magic, say, an anti-wizard faction.
- the term \"gun\" makes people thing of modern weapons...these would be nothing more than long tubes of bamboo or iron that you have to ignite (no trigger yet, folks) at one end and PRAY it doesn\'t blow up in your face. (For a good example, watch Princess Mononoke.)
- I\'m not sure how crafting will work yet, but I don\'t think PCs should be able these, ever. Maybe a maxxed out smith can make the crudest model, but that\'s IT. The secrects of this \"technology\" would be FIERCELY guarded by it\'s creators. (IE, no one knows how to make gunpowder but them)
- a gun\'s advantage over an arrow is a simple one. It pierces average armor and does splash damage. Magical armor should be able to stand up to it.
If there\'s anything I forgot, feel free to add. But again, I think the simple \"rifles\" in Princess Mononoke are the best example if you ever want to impliment guns.
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Originally posted by Gwenelith Knight
- a gun\'s advantage over an arrow is a simple one. It pierces average armor and does splash damage. Magical armor should be able to stand up to it.
well that is highly dependant on what kind of arrow you are using, and which type of bullet.
There are armor piercing arrows as well, and the old fashioned bullets from muskets and the like aren\'t waaaaay more effective than arrows made especially for armor piercing, so old guns like muskets and arquebus\' aren\'t really worth the time..
and personally I believe that implementing guns would change the atmosphere to a degree where I just wouldn\'t enjoy playing... let\'s just say I\'m against technology of that sort... :P
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Originally posted by Gwenelith Knight
Alright, I\'ve read most of the topics, and here I am to throw my 2 cents into the pool.
*cracks knuckles*
Alright, first, IF a gun-type weapon is ever implimented by the staff, there are a few things we should all keep in mind. (some of these have already been said, so I\'m just condensing it):
- gun-types would be HIGH technology to this world, even very very crude guns. Therefore, they would be grotesquely expensive and rare.
- being high technology, they shouldn\'t be implimented until further along in Planeshifts lifespan...we don\'t even have our swords yet, so calm down.
- guns do seem out of place in a magic-weilding society, which means if they are used, it should be done by those WITHOUT much magic, say, an anti-wizard faction.
- the term \"gun\" makes people thing of modern weapons...these would be nothing more than long tubes of bamboo or iron that you have to ignite (no trigger yet, folks) at one end and PRAY it doesn\'t blow up in your face. (For a good example, watch Princess Mononoke.)
- I\'m not sure how crafting will work yet, but I don\'t think PCs should be able these, ever. Maybe a maxxed out smith can make the crudest model, but that\'s IT. The secrects of this \"technology\" would be FIERCELY guarded by it\'s creators. (IE, no one knows how to make gunpowder but them)
- a gun\'s advantage over an arrow is a simple one. It pierces average armor and does splash damage. Magical armor should be able to stand up to it.
If there\'s anything I forgot, feel free to add. But again, I think the simple \"rifles\" in Princess Mononoke are the best example if you ever want to impliment guns.
So u mean basically it works in the same way as the machina in FFX :D
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thats what i was trying to say :)
i agree with gwenith
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could you please explain me how crude guns are high technology?
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technology in ranged warfare...
throwing rock->sling->javeline->bow->xbow->crube hand cannon thing that resembled \"guns\"
i know i missed some i dint wanna bother in details...
since we are in the bow/xbow stage a crude powder fired wepon would be very high tech
and i really like the princess mononoke idea for a similarity....
and yes i am real.... i know too good to be true but it is
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I think guns would be cool. Like in zelda, you go into a kind of first person shooter view when you use a bow. if you added that to guns, it could attract first person shooters into the game.
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FPS wouldn\'t be a good idea in an MMORPG
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Ahh you sort technology in probable appaerance in our worlds history.
But there is no need causal binding between sling and javeline, or sling and bow. (there is between rock and every ranged, but all others there is no must.)
If you have blowpipes you have the concept for guns. Here is only the step to use powder instead your breath. And since it is very easy to find something exploding during alchemic experiments, powder is no problem.
Alchemy is quite common in PS so guns arent so hightech.
Production of a simple gun is really lowtech. Make form of one side closed pipe, pour melted bronze in it, wait till it cooled down, drill a hole near the closed siide ( or have it already in the form), mount a handle and tada you have a gun. Making a simple gun is really bronze age technology.
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Very well put. and when I meant the FPS view when you use the gun, I meant it as an option. you could go into options and set it to on, or off.
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even thought we have alchemy to keep things all even we need to have the most powerfull the hardest to get and the hardest to use
this is a game! and thats the rules you cant have like 10 new people go kill the hardest creature all using a wepon that they can make... it would not be fun having everyone really powerfull when they start .... whats the point then
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why do you think a gun is the most powerfull. A simple bronze age gun would be inaccuray and not very effective, but very easy to use. If you have more skill with ranged weapons, a bow or even a javelin would be more powerfull.
As part of the blowpipe line guns should be lowskilled newbie weapons, not powerfull, but easy to use. If you want really go in ranged fight, you have to choose other weapons.
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I think it should have Blow Pipes, where you blow small lightweight arrows/poison arrows. Also, It crossed my mind that maybe they could have some form of GunBlades, Like FF. But maybe not with a Gun, but a blowpipe, Or a small Cannon that fires lead pellets.
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famous quote \'\' I have the greatest number or veuglaires, serpentines, crapaudines, culverines and ribaudequins that have ever been collected in the history of man\'\' from charles of france, next person to say guns didnt exist in middle ages deserves a kick in the teeth.
And anyway, its true that the first guns and cannons were feeble compared to the old technologies, they were a thing of the rich to show off, which is how they should be used in the game, a thing of the rich to show off, with all the disabilities or the real veugalaires and culverines.
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I think guns is a good idea. Have any of you guys played dungeon siege. The have wizards, swords bows, magics, axes hammers, and all the other things you\'d expect in a fantasy rpg. But they also have a minigun (and it doesn\'t feel out of place).
I\'ve seen some people give some pretty good ideas for the game and thats all they really are. But Every time i see some poeple gett up here and post NO NO NO that\'s not how I want it like their make the frigging game themselves.
Guns were in a midevil setting. Any of you played Age of Empires 2? There were guns. I\'ts somthing that can further add variety to the game if you think about. I mean come on now, every friggin Fanatsy MMORPG is limited to swords and bows. Whoopie-do.... But some one mentions something that breaks the mold a bit and you guys pratically treat it like blasphemy. A slow cumbersome muzzle loading soomth bore rifle.(Which is and extremely in accruate and slow gun.) is not a bad idea. You people should try to keep and open mind abou these things. Besides with a fire rate of about 3 rounds a minute, I don\'t think it would exactly be the mostly widely use weapon in PS
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muahaha! I resurrected this thread from the dead.
I was thinking over and I would like to see guns in the game. I mean if there were guns I\'d have more of a selection of what type of weapons I could have. Muskets or 15th - 17th century guns would fit perfectly into the setting. Too many of you think as if I was talking about an M16 or an M249. I mean you guys wouldn\'t be against throwing a Polearm or throwing a rock but your against using a gun? Which is obviously better than those two...
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hehe, I\'d love to see someone try to fight me with a medievil gun, by the time they got their second shot off, they\'d be half dead. and likely missed both times
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I hate guns... especially old ones :P they are simply not as effective as magic... Even in d&d I\'m against them, suits me just fine that they are crappy in that game too :D
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I like the idea of a gun. I would like something that can be uesd as a good first attack, something like a loaded crossbow. Someone/something wants to get into a fight, whip out the weapon and fire a powerful blow to equalize the fight. It wouldn\'t be something you reload during a battle. That would be like changing the radiator in the middle of a demolition derby. Of course, you wouldn\'t use the gun to instantly kill smaller enemies, since it\'s difficult to reload the gun.
More than that, though, I would like to see something more like FF7 or Hero\'s Quest (perhaps the greatest game ever made). That way, if you come upon an arctic area and aren\'t interested in that area, you don\'t enter. If you want to find a city of the future on another planet, so be it. Of course, the equality of weapons is a valid argument, like you don\'t want to take ray guns home, so you check them at the door on your way out and pick them up on the way in. Crystals, fortunately, are a universal money. :-) If you go hunting for some on another planet, you can still buy stuff in the Egypt-style desert. This game is partly based on reality, and the closer it is to being based on reality, the more resilient it will be to introductions of items from reality. In other words, if it were truly the middle ages and someone introduced a gun, the easiest way to counter the imbalance would be for everyone to get a gun. (Hmm, will monsters be characters with AI? or will they be cookie cutter animals? In other words, can a monster find gems and buy weapons?)
I read a couple pages of this thread, and it seemed to be a bunch of the same arguments over and over, so I skipped to the end. I hope I didn\'t miss someone else saying the same thing.
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Here\'s an idea for your guns. Make them more powerful than regular ranged weapons, give them moderate range, and make their accuracy decent (about 3 in 5 cahnces to hit for the average user). Also make them longer to reload.
Benifits: If used in quantity at moderate distances, they would beable to stop heavily armored knights ((granted the knight attacked them starting from a distance and was going slowly)(something a regular bow could not do, a cross bow depends on the size)).
Disadvantages: The weapon would always loose out to other ranged weapons, because of their superior reload times. (I\'m talking something on the order of 30 seconds to load the gun, and 15 to aim it. A bow would take 3 seconds to load and 5 to aim (Speaking from experience))
Imact on the game: They would be OK, but if you were alone and fighting an armored target. (I\'m thinking heavy armor would stop the shots for the most part) then you would find yourself in trouble. Also, how about preventing them from firing from the water? This is accurate, as bows and crossbows COULD fire from water, but a gun from this period could not. I\'m thinking these weapons would be used in a supporting role, because if they were not, the enemy would close too fast and literally rip the user to shreads after the first shot.
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I still think old musket guns would be good in the game. It\'s a medieval weapon, the game has a medieval setting, so why not use it? Its just like any other weapon, it has its strengths, and it has its weaknesses.
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Awesome, I could be a musketeer. Just call me D?Artagnan. That way i load my gun before a fight, shoot one shot, most likely miss, or have the gun explode in my hand. And then finish them all off with my rapier. :tup: :D
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Nah, I don\'t think muskets are a good idea.
The only place that I could see use of guns is in pre-decided events (in which the gun is an important part of a character\'s background).
Such as a landing by hostile forces, or an escaped prisoner from off-world.
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Guns could be like forbidden knowledge, and you can\'t use them or make them, hell, you don\'t even get to see one until you do a quest or something anways, Monketh you can clearify that a bit, its a bit hard to understand.
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Basically, you have to have a \"license\" from the devs. This is to ensure that:
A) They are seen incredibly rarely
B) They are used as part of a story
C) They don\'t fall into the hands of the 1337
Same thing could be done with starships, mechs, etc.
--They only appear when the devs, Game rp controllers allow.
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Originally posted by windwalker
u know Medieval
bows, arrows, couple different types,
staffs
pots of boiling oil
dead cows over the tower wall at the enemy
you know that kind of stuff
the game is set in medieval time,, NOT GUNS
maybe firecracker/works in china but NOT GUNS
NOT GUNS
go play counterstrike if you want guns
we deal with medieval weapons
I like the idea of firecrackers--maybe some bottle rockets. How cool would that be?
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well if anyone took history here, they would know that a gun is medieval...the musket gun we know was made at the end of the medieval era. Planeshift has a medieval setting, a gun is medieval, its has pluses and minuses like all the other weapons, I don\'t see anything wrong with a gun. There\'s just too much pre-conception that a gun has to be an assault rifle, which is stereotypical for people who don\'t really take time to make actually make an accurate point but rather saying that if there\'s guns in Planeshift then it HAS to be an AK-47.
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You make a good point, Kuiper. Single-shot, muzzle-loaded rifles and pistols would be appropriate medeival weaponry--but they don\'t fit the image most PS devs want.
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Do you know that for certain? I certainly don\'t but they want medieval type stuff and well a musket is a medieval type thing, so like hand in hand. Well then yes your right, they possibly hate the idea, guess they just have to tell us and see what they think.
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Originally posted by Kuiper7986
I think guns should be a in the game, but to make it flow with the PS gameline. I\'m not talking about M16A2s,
Ak-47s, or HK G36k, I\'m talking about Single Action Rifles, which requires you to reload after one bullet. I think being able to use a gun should require a special quest from \"The Gods of PS,\" in which you must do a quest to recieve a special weapon. This is how it can work.
This is what kinda of gun I mean:
http://www.iar-arms.com/images/sharpccrbc457030.jpg
How to get one:
You get one by doing a quest (a weak gun but better than not having a gun) or you can get a gun by buying one. There will be stores around the PS world, but when you try to go inside you get kicked out from the gunkeeper saying, \"Hey! The Gods didn\'t allow you in here.\" Or you can smith one, but you need a very high smithing experience to make a gun.
Costs and Prices:
A Gun should be expensive to everyone. Depending on the quality of the gun it should be priced at the quality of the gun. Ammo should also be taken into consideration. Ammo can also be smithed but will require more experience than making a gun, so it\'ll force you to by ammo, and buying large quantities will not be cheap. Also ammo should be priced depending what kind of ammo it is. There should be like ammo made of different ores from the stuff that people can go mining for or they can be regular bullets but you can add status effects by using it with different chemicals or spells. Like if your an alchemist or something you can make Poison Ammo or if you\'re a priest, you can make Holy Ammo or something.
Fighting:
This is how a gun would fight. First it depends on the weight, a heavier gun would mean slower firing time and a lighter can would mean faster firing time. Also a tempo can be set depending on how fast you can reload and aim. I think there should be a \"gun skill\" that could determine aiming time, firing time, and a reloading time. Also I think you should be able to change your ammo type during fighting, but in doing that you lose that attack phase of your turn. Guns should also be weaker than swords, cuz the blow of a sword is much deadlier than a bullet wound. Also to help that, guns should be long-ranged. Meaning he can attack from kinda far (not very far) but within allotted distances and it should have a 99% hit rate, since they\'re accurate.
ONE MORE TIME, WHEN I MEAN GUNS I\'M NOT TALKING ABOUT Machine Guns, or anything like that! I\'m talking about Old Guns that can potentially do well in the game!
Take this as an example:
Let saying I see a monster and I\'m going to that monster. I get my gun ready. He attacks me first. Then I shoot back. Then I have to reload one bullet which will take a few seconds, then I have to aim again (which will be the main tempo), then he attacks me, then I shoot back again, then I have to reload, then aim again....etc.
Your example sounds like the sword fights in, dare I tarnish this forum with its name, \"Runescape\".
It is a good idea though. Perhaps you could choose to use a gun but there are also other long range weapons available. So for instance you like guns so you choose them, yet someone else prefers darts maybe, so thats what they use. They could all have varying strengths and weaknesses. So if your wanting to follow a certain theme with your character then its consistent. For example you want your character medievil knight looking and skilled in those sort of things. Then it would look odd if you see this knight style character using a firearm.
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ya a gun would be a ranger weapon, you can\'t use it while wearing heavy armor. To me a musket gun is just like any other weapon.
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Nope, doesn\'t appeal to me, sorry. If you want a ranged weapon, use a bow, crossbow, arbalist...something that fits with a fantasy game. Have you ever read any fantasy book that had guns in them, whatever kind, it just doesn\'t fit.
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Fantasy: \"The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy.\" So by limiting weapons you are limiting the very definition of fantasy.
There\'s no code or rule that says a \"fantasy\" game can only have a bow, crossbow, or any weapon of that sort in a fantasy game.
No I\'ve never read a fantasy book with a gun in it, but there\'s no reason why it shouldn\'t. There\'s no doctrine that states that if its fantasy then it can\'t have a gun.
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Thank you, I have proven my point.
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I think although a musket-type gun fits in with the Medieval period, it does not go with the fantasy setting in PS. I would hate PS to turn into just another first-person shooter.
In my opinion it would totally ruin the theme of the game to include any type of guns and besides if there were guns why would anyone want a sword? I know which one i\'d choose in battle.
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Originally posted by Kuiper7986
Fantasy: \"The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy.\" So by limiting weapons you are limiting the very definition of fantasy.
There\'s no code or rule that says a \"fantasy\" game can only have a bow, crossbow, or any weapon of that sort in a fantasy game.
No I\'ve never read a fantasy book with a gun in it, but there\'s no reason why it shouldn\'t. There\'s no doctrine that states that if its fantasy then it can\'t have a gun.
I understand what you are saying completely, dont get me wrong, but I just don\'t like this idea. Maybe some game should break the whole fantasy trend (not only weapons, but races as well, elves being good, dwarves being miners etc.), but I don\'t think PS will be the game, and I am perfectly happy to have PS a traditional fantasy (genre, not the amagination) game.
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You see but there\'s no real definition of \"traditional fantasy\" setting.
Okay so you define a fantasy setting. There\'s no set rules saying that a fantasy can\'t have mukset guns.
So how would a musket gun not fit in a fantasy setting?
Also what gives the assumption that just because you have a musket gun then it\'s going to become a first person shooter?
Oh no, but its okay to have cannons, but we can\'t have a musket gun.
Cannon: Powder, Ball, fuse, shoot
Musket: Powder, Ball, fuse, shoot
Just about the samething, so why is it okay to have a cannon but not a musket gun? They\'re practically have the same fundamental principles, anyways back to musket guns...
Like I said, the word fantasy doesn\'t imply that it has to only be swords, bows, and staffs. You can\'t find a reliable source that says fantasy doesn\'t have mukset guns. Either way muskets or not I still am going to play this game, but muskets wouldn\'t hurt the game.
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Originally posted by Kuiper7986
You see but there\'s no real definition of \"traditional fantasy\" setting.
I beg to differ with you, there is a fantasy genre, the main components in a nutshell...swords, magic, monsters.
The Fantasy Genre revolves around magic, this doesn\'t mean that everyone is a mage, casting spells, there are warriors, blacksmiths etc. But the whole Fantasy setting revolves around magic.
Now, having said that, think about science. Magic and Science are simmilar, but very different. With Science, everything is proved , with Magic, everything is unexplainable. Which group does guns fit into? When you think about guns, do you think about Magic? or Science (technology)? Science of course, guns are a part of our modern scientific world. Everything in our world is based on science. Fantasy games are based on magic.
There are two basic types of MMORPGs, Fantasy, and Sci-Fi. Fantasy is based on magic, Sci-Fi is based on Science. If we were to add guns in Planeshift (whatever kind), in my mind in seems like a hybrid between a Fantasy and a Sci-Fi game. That is why guns do not belong in a Fantasy game.
Im really hope all this makes sense and why you understand why I am against guns. Not because it is not logical, or historical, but because it just does not fit in a Fantasy Game.
P.S. Every time I refer to \"Fantasy\", I am refering to the GENRE, not the DEFINITION.
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For me it seems you put everything you understand in science and magic is what you cant explain. You are only opposed to guns cause you understand how it works. If you wouldnt know, you would see them as magic, like a wand.
IMHO muskets arent more science than a crossbow. But they are magic. You go to your alchemist, who gives you a packet of magical powder and explicit orders how to use it. More often than not it works. So they would be magical artifacts in PS, similar to a magic bow with magic arrows.
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Right, but in our world today, we have guns. Our world is a scientific world. Guns have replaced bows and crossbows. In a fantasy game, we want to have a whole new world without any of our modern things. I know people use bows today, but not as a weapon (besides hunting, but thats a sport).
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Fine even in a fantasy \"genre\" does it say no musket guns?
Where does it say that the fantasy genre is based on magic? Were just accustomed to hearing fantasy based on that stuff because that\'s how were exposed to it.
Planeshift IS sci-fi because it isn\'t real.
Science Fiction:
A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.
Sci-Fi and Planeshit go hand in hand. You can\'t have Planeshift without Science Fiction or nothing would exist in the \"fantasy\" genre. All scifi games are fantasy and all fantasy games are sci-fi.
So guns wouldn\'t affect sci-fi or fantasy? There\'s nothing that says \"fantasy\" genre couldn\'t have musket guns, so there\'s nothing wrong with having musket guns.
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No im taliking about Sci-Fi as a genre too, ya know all those fururistic games like Neocron and Planetside...your impossible :(
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No one ever said that sci-fi can only be like star trek, neocron, star wars, etc...
Like fantasy we are just accustomed to those being scifi even though as long as it isn\'t real, its sci-fi. :P
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I, personally, wouldn\'t mind either way....
...If we had a vote, I would vote for \"no\". The guns(older style like you said)aren\'t a bad idea, but like Icefalcon said, it doesn\'t fit into the \"fantasy\" genre as we know it. You will probably have something to explain to me(I am waiting :P) but we are all stereotypical of what a \"fantasy\" game is....
....When people hear about \"fantasy\" games, they think Swords, Axes, Bows, Magic, Staffs, etc....
....well, maybe except Kuiper and maybe someone else. ;)
Reason people are saying \"no\" is because of the stereotypes of \"fantasy\" games. That is my reason. :P
(Although, it would be good to \"break the edge\" with the musket[old gun] idea. The Devs always said they wanted to be original...
...They took out the stereotype of Dragons in all fantasy games. Who knows? This might be the next step in making PS it\'s \"own\" game. It wouldn\'t fit under a genre; it would be PlaneShift. I like that. :D )
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Can you really explain \"fantasy\" genre, I bet no one here can find a legit reliable non-third party web page, that defines the \"fantasy\" genre. I tried and no luck.
People want to Planeshift to be ORIGINAL. But there are some people who are stereotypic to the \"fantasy\" genre. How is the game going to be original if the stuff in the game is going to have the \"traditional\" fantasy genre. You can\'t say you want something to be original yet the stuff you want has to follow some kind of \"genre.\" Being Original doesn\'t mean following what type of genre or whatever. It means NOT following a certain type of continuation of what\'s going on. It isn\'t original to say okay, we want magic, swords, crossbows, and axes. How many \" Medieval fantasy\" games have that already,? But how many \"medieval fantasy\" games also have musket guns in them? Not very many if any at all. Its good that the Devs don\'t want Dragons in the game. That\'s wonderful that\'s being original, but denying the very principle of originality by following a stereotype opinion of what people want, infringes the purpose of originality. Musket Guns.
If the Devs have any opinions on musket guns or any of this please don\'t hesitate to add comments.
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We can\'t box in creativity and expect it to remain vivacious and elastic. If we stamp PlaneShift with the label of \"Fantasy\" and say, \"There. You are a fantasy game, so grow up and act like a fantasy game!\" then we are stifling the creative potential of the game. I am wholeheartedly with Kuiper on this one. I think it would be a refreshing change to play a fantasy MMORPG with musket guns in it, and I don\'t feel it would hurt the game at all.
Using guns to cause long-range damage isn\'t any more of a \"first-person shooter\" experience than shooting them with bows, crossbows, or combat magic. Damage is damage, and since musket guns did exist in medieval times on Earth, we should be open-minded and original enough to break the mold and make a fantasy game which has them in it.
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Originally posted by Kuiper7986
Fantasy: \"The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy.\" So by limiting weapons you are limiting the very definition of fantasy.
There\'s no code or rule that says a \"fantasy\" game can only have a bow, crossbow, or any weapon of that sort in a fantasy game.
No I\'ve never read a fantasy book with a gun in it, but there\'s no reason why it shouldn\'t. There\'s no doctrine that states that if its fantasy then it can\'t have a gun.
OK this ought to decompose your argument to some extent. Bla Bla Bla \"everything you said about fantasy and how guns relate\".
Yes I agree to a certain degree, yet why must a gun conform with a predetermined definition of what a gun is perceived to be? By being set in concrete about guns your contridicting your whole argument.
As this game is fantasy orientated then the game can and should be something totally outrageous and new. We are only limited by our imagination.
A single shot muzzle loaded musket is not in anyway associated with fantasy. Its a solid object that exists in real life.
Feel free to reply to any component of my brief argument so I can further explain my point of view.
*EDIT* Im still questioning whether black powder fire arms existed in medievil times. Ill have to do some research.
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See Firearms area from this website - http://www.nps.gov/colo/Jthanout/HisArmur.html
The fantasy strategy game Age of Wonders had gunpowder in it. The Dwarves had cannons, which were deadly, but more expensive than the catapults the other races had. Humans had Musketeers, but they were easily slain yet could easily kill. The fact that some races had gunpowder while others did not was not overbalancing for the former. See http://aow.heavengames.com for details on AoW.
In the WoT series, the Illuminators used gunpowder in their fireworks, and gunpowder was a closely kept secret anyway, so nevermind. Although one fellow did use it to blast a hole in a wall...
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The argument that the fantasy genre is not pre-defined is not a very good one. Yes the fantasy genre can be modified and that is a good thing to make the games diverse and original, but if you start adding any old thing to the game it starts moving away from the fantasy genre and into something different. I know it\'s not written that \"you cannot have a gun in a fantsay game\" but neither is it written \"you cannot have a green sky and pink fluffy elephants running around eating people\" everyone just knows that would make the game have less appeal.
And yes there is a difference between having a musket and a cannon - cannon\'s are large and clumsy weapons, you can\'t easily target someone and know they will drop dead with your first shot. And you can\'t just walk up behind someone and shoot them with a cannon, it\'s just impractical.
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Actually, if you did a little research, you would realize that muzzle-loaded weapons didn\'t \"killl their target with the first shot\" on a very regular basis--actually, most shots missed, and the ones that did hit usually struck in the groin. One of the most common battle wounds during the US Civil War was a hit to the gonads. This was because of the tremendous kick of the rifles, which would cause the barrel to raise while firing, so to compensate, the soldiers were told to aim low so that they would hit the torso. Most soldiers overcompensated, and the result was frequent castration via mini ball.
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Instead of guns which I beleive, as do many others ruins the whole fantasy setting, why not slingshots? A forked peice of wood and rocks. It has more of a fantasy medeival setting then a gun.
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Originally posted by Xelex
It has more of a fantasy medeival setting then a gun.
See someone agrees with me, guns are not of a fantasy medeval setting...
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Originally posted by Cirque
A single shot muzzle loaded musket is not in anyway associated with fantasy. Its a solid object that exists in real life.
Swords, Axes, Bows, etc. exist in real life. People just don\'t use them for killing(etc.) like they use guns.
I am still in the gray on this though. I would be happy either way. I can see how/why people believe they should be in, but I understand the other side too....
...So, I will just wait and see what time will bring us. :)
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Icefalcon he\'s referring to a slingshot, not the gun. He said the Slingshot has more of a fantasy setting than a gun, but never says that the gun doesn\'t have any fantasy setting.
Cirque and I quote:
\"A single shot muzzle loaded musket is not in anyway associated with fantasy.\"
-Give me one reliable source that says that.
Cirque and I quote:
\"As this game is fantasy orientated then the game can and should be something totally outrageous and new. We are only limited by our imagination.\"
-Yes, that is so true! So having only swords, crossbows, axes, and spears, is something totally outrageous and new?
To Yalzin: You can\'t compare musket guns and fluffy man-eating elephants, they aren\'t in the same category.\"
-BTW: Planeshift does kinda have a green sky. Not pure green but an off-tone color of green. As for the pink-elephants, hey its a new idea, nothing wrong with it, at least its more original than a green dragon.
Quoting Yalzin Again:
\"And yes there is a difference between having a musket and a cannon - cannon\'s are large and clumsy weapons, you can\'t easily target someone and know they will drop dead with your first shot. And you can\'t just walk up behind someone and shoot them with a cannon, it\'s just impractical.\"
-said \"just about\" the samething. I never said EXACTLY the samething.
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You can quote all you want but it has no bearing on what I believe. You seem threatened by what other people are putting forth.
My post may have seemed out of context to you so ill repost at a later date.
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Originally posted by Kuiper7986
To Yalzin: You can\'t compare musket guns and fluffy man-eating elephants, they aren\'t in the same category.\"
-BTW: Planeshift does kinda have a green sky. Not pure green but an off-tone color of green. As for the pink-elephants, hey its a new idea, nothing wrong with it, at least its more original than a green dragon.
Quoting Yalzin Again:
\"And yes there is a difference between having a musket and a cannon - cannon\'s are large and clumsy weapons, you can\'t easily target someone and know they will drop dead with your first shot. And you can\'t just walk up behind someone and shoot them with a cannon, it\'s just impractical.\"
-said \"just about\" the samething. I never said EXACTLY the samething.
No my point is that just because there isn\'t a law prohibiting the use of guns in fantasy RPGs doesn\'t mean that they should eb used. The fact is there are no rules saying what you can and cannot have, but you must think about what is true to the nature of the game to make that decision. In my opinion guns would make people think that PS was focusing more on single-shot fights and long-distance combat which is more assosiated with the FPS genre.
I wouldn\'t have such an objection to a cannon because there is not the possibility of people ending fights quickly and easily with it, and it\'s main function is as artillery not in one-on-one fights.
And I don\'t want to know about soldiers being castrated, save that for the playground. I think you\'ll find that it is much easier to cause fatal damage to someone with a musket than it is with a sharp bit of steel, that is my objection.
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Originally posted by Yalzin
I think you\'ll find that it is much easier to cause fatal damage to someone with a musket than it is with a sharp bit of steel, that is my objection.
Actually thats true for every ranged weapon, simply because you dont have to come nearly as close as with non-ranged weapon. So replace musket with bow, crossbow, sling, spear, etc and it is still the same. Its even easier with a crossbow or bow than with a musket.
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Originally posted by Kuiper7986
Icefalcon he\'s referring to a slingshot, not the gun. He said the Slingshot has more of a fantasy setting than a gun, but never says that the gun doesn\'t have any fantasy setting.
Cirque and I quote:
\"A single shot muzzle loaded musket is not in anyway associated with fantasy.\"
-Give me one reliable source that says that.
Cirque and I quote:
\"As this game is fantasy orientated then the game can and should be something totally outrageous and new. We are only limited by our imagination.\"
-Yes, that is so true! So having only swords, crossbows, axes, and spears, is something totally outrageous and new?
OK here we go.
In reference to your 1st quote, the source is my own opinion. I was coming from the perspective of fantasy is created with the use of the imagination. So why must the long range weapon be something that is already in existence? Why not create a new long range weapon with the use of the imagination?
As for your second quote, I made no mention of swords, crossbows, axes and spears in that post. Think laterally about that one. If your werent looking through bias vision then you may have detected my hint at something other than the default RPG weapons range and your idea on muskets.
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Its just occured to me that its a ludicrous exercise in futility trying to explain what I mean. Simply because everyone has their own idea of what an MMORPG should be like. There is always going to be someone that disagrees and thats fine.
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I still say a slingshot has more of a fantasy setting than a gun. Guns are just more of a MMOFPS thing to me. I would go with a slingshot or a boomerang. Defnately not a gun though. Hardly a medeival fantasy setting.
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Cirque you may be right, but I can strongly infer you meant of those traditional weapones because I\'m strongly feel that you weren\'t actually thinking of making up new weapons, you were just sayint that to get acknowlege your point that I am completely wrong.
Secondly, hey I\'m not threatened at all, its my opinion that I\'m putting forth and its good to know that some people disagree me, it shows that they\'re some people here actually care about such thing. Besides criticism only makes me try harder to correct my points. So I\'m actually thanking those who criticize me about my points and opinions, (not me personally)
To Yalzin: Easy make the musket guns harder to get, and put minuses on the gun itself, that would leave it balanced. But then your going to say, well then if
the gun is so bad why use it? Well its not all bad, it has pluses and minuses. Also a cannon is nontheless still a gun. Therefore shouldn\'t be placed in a game of this genre.
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I second that Kuiper7986.
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Originally posted by Kuiper7986
Cirque you may be right, but I can strongly infer you meant of those traditional weapones because I\'m strongly feel that you weren\'t actually thinking of making up new weapons, you were just sayint that to get acknowlege your point that I am completely wrong.
Secondly, hey I\'m not threatened at all, its my opinion that I\'m putting forth and its good to know that some people disagree me, it shows that they\'re some people here actually care about such thing. Besides criticism only makes me try harder to correct my points. So I\'m actually thanking those who criticize me about my points and opinions, (not me personally)
To Yalzin: Easy make the musket guns harder to get, and put minuses on the gun itself, that would leave it balanced. But then your going to say, well then if
the gun is so bad why use it? Well its not all bad, it has pluses and minuses. Also a cannon is nontheless still a gun. Therefore shouldn\'t be placed in a game of this genre.
Im afraid you dont know what I mean. You have viewed what I have said in your own way. That doesnt mean that you understand what I was thinking at the time when I posted that message. The fact that you think you have the divine ability to do just that perplexes me.
As I have said. Your free to interpret what other people have posted yet it doesnt mean you understand what they themselves are thinking.
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Your saying that I have the \"divine ability.\" So you think I\'m trying to act godly, saying that I speak for everyone else, even though I don\'t (which by the way makes me look really bad and seems like your mocking me.) Which I haven\'t done to you.
B
ut nonetheless I am still happy for criticism from you or whoever no matter what.
Secondly there are two ways, one that I am completely wrong on what others are thinking, and hopefully I am wrong because I don\'t want to know what people are thinking or two, I am right but people aren\'t just willing to admit that I stand correct.
Anyways can we just stop talking about me understanding you or vice versa and just get back to the main topic, which is musket guns? I don\'t know how this ever went off topic.
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Right, so the main negative point is that guns are too \'un-fantasy\' like and the main positives are that the gun can introduce more vairety. Am I correct?
Well, sometimes, there are some things that have advantages that negate the disadvantages. And since, if I\'m correct, the main disadvantage is really just a matter of opinion...
Perhaps there could be a \'unique\' type of gun in PS. Not the ones that shoot musket balls, but either magical missles or some other thing that causes various ailments or sensory dysfunction. I have not read the earlier posts, so this may have been suggested already, but oh well. In any case, this type of gun would mainly be support or just a way to temporarily disable the opponenet in order to escape. Also, a bayonet could be added to make this \'magic gun\' more practical and make a difference between simply casting spells. And another difference is that it could be shot with more ease, yet reloading... Well, what should the ammo be for this, and is it a feasible idea? Other comments?
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Can we get back on the subject without you 2 fighting about who meant what.Xelex made a good contribution that i agree with that a sling/crossbow/bow ect. would fulfill the medieval \"feeling\" of the game. I would like to keep the cannon idea though it would make a interesting contribution to siege?
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What would the point be.... this isnt exactly a medieval game eiter.... it is a FANTASY game...... no guns. period. (well actually thats not my authority but think about it....)
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Flippy, I already talked about that in my earlier posts. I would quote them again, but I don\'t want people to kill me because I keep quoting the samething, and I understand, I would too.
Wormtail has a good point, I guess it doesn\'t have to be musket guns, but something that shoots something, because I mean arrows and bows, its the samething. Hmmm...I have a posting idea, should go under Planeshift wishlist.
People I\'d like to thank, cuz this form is coming to an end:
IceFalcon, Cirque, Xelex, and everyone for giving me a good arguments and for those who agreed me.
I got another post coming up.
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I apologise if I came across as mocking. That was not my intention.
Regarding you being right or wrong, I suggest that you are neither as am I and every other person posting in this thread. Its not about whos right or wrong its about a group of people compiling ideas and opinions.
I also thank you for your acknowledgement on my input in this thread. Although I would like to substitute the word argument for discussion because I believe argument implies conflict.
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want to point something out... the reason why armies stopped using longbows and crossbows is not mainly because a musket is more powerful its because it took 3 years to train a bowman but it only took 2 weeks to train a man to fire a musket. Sorry just had to point that out
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if they included a gun in a medievil setting (after all, the game is set with many period references. though somewhat scattered, they most often point to middle ages). it would have to be something along the lines of the old flintlocks, or single bore muskets. it would have an incredible amount of power, however, accuracy would be null and void even at very close range. also, the rate of fire would be so slow that it wouldn\'t be worth using. the only reason early guns were so popular was fear factor. they were something that had never been seen before, and were loud as well as deadly when they hit.
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Aargg, why did you ressurect this thread? I hate guns...
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iam kinda late but heck
Guns hmm i like guns but guns in a fantasy game not really unless we are doing sometihng like steampunk type based game
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Oh my im posting after such long hiatus on this! : o
Well now i have several things to say about this...
Firstly think what your saying
\"oh no there not good for the setting\"
Prehaps you should open your mind a little to the idea If you have cannons and the principle is the same surly cannons degrade the setting? muskets have infact nearly no difference only the size scale.
arbalists are not used vs people there almost considered seige weapons in there own right. For the person who mentioned them.
ok people should stop refering to these things as guns too. they bare almost no resembalence on todays gun\'s and using that word probably conjures up the idea of a desert eagle or somthing simular in most peoples minds. Guns would have alot of limits to them ie. nearly no range .useable max range 10-15 foot even then it should still miss quite a bit. Power would be quite high more so than some bow weapons (all depends on how hard it is to string that bow though) And requires little training to use. but it has a monsterous reload time.
For those that say well if there so bad why use them?
Simple more variety quite fun idea but they will be rare and for the Richer more powerfull players which means they will have out grown the need for guns so why will they be there? To show off there wealth and power it could be a status symbol and lastly the scare factor to creatures in the wild if i was a small creature and i heard a huge explosion i would prolly scamper :)
thanks for reading my post if you didnt just skip it :O
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I think that guns just shudnt be in it if you wanna use guns go play a war game this is bows arrows and swords ect...not guns it doesnt fit in this whole scenario of dragons and cat people its just not right for this game
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Originally posted by Gronomist
Think medieval, don\'t think realistic.
think fantasy, don\'t think medieval. ;)
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Originally posted by Mohegan_Flo
I think that guns just shudnt be in it if you wanna use guns go play a war game this is bows arrows and swords ect...not guns it doesnt fit in this whole scenario of dragons and cat people its just not right for this game
When I can finally update it again, read this:
http://www.freewebs.com/azaelcomic
It\'s fantasy, and it has *gasp* a working set of firearms, not to mention the Mage Bolter, that little thing of mine I\'ve brought up before. In fact, The Fantasy Trip had guns, as I recall.
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The argument \"why use guns if you have bows, crossbows and magic\" is flawed IMO.
You could also ask: \"Why use bows / crossbows if you have magic\" Same reasoning.
If guns are more powerful, then why NOT use guns? Surely not to \"be fair to the archer guys\".
If they weren\'t more powerful, then how do you explain that they were developed at all in the medieval (or late medieval or whatever) when bows and crossbows were already available? Simple, because it was a new idea and people kept it around. AFAIK, skill-wise, a gun and a crossbow are the same, you don\'t need much skill to use either one and kill someone on reasonable distance.
The main reason of why use guns IMO is: they are more easy to carry. A Bow and a crossbow isn\'t exactly going to fit in your pocket. A rifle still is less bulky than either. So there _is_ reason to prefer a gun over bow and crossbow even if it is a lot less reliable and more dangerous to the user. I\'d say it\'s a merchants weapon: easy to handle and to carry (of course, these factors are always overlooked in games as you just mysteriously have 4 bows and 7 swords in your bag :) Also, the fact that a bow will wear out quickly if it is under tension (i.e. ready to use) all the time, is also ignored. And dampness and coldness has serious effects on it as well, but nobody thinks about that.).
Also there\'s the \"bang\" factor. A gun makes a big impression due to the sound of it firing. This can scare primitive societies and nonintelligent creatures. It also tells them your exact position.
I must say, the more I think about it, the more I can accept guns in PS. The only thing is that we need to prevent them from being used nearly exclusively, but we definitively can manage that.
I also want to be able to throw rocks, because they are the most obvious thing but also nearly always missing from games. You just grab some rocks from the ground and you have a scary weapon. Even with slings, in games, the most rocky cliff, or a cave, does not provide a single rock, which is, IMO, unrealistic to the highest degree. Rocks are _everywhere_, even today. Sticks are, too.
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Ok, my thaughts on guns are...
1: guns now-adays are GREAT and powerful, and would be close to the band Rammstein, guns then are slow, inaccurite, short ranged, loud, heavy, and only did damage to people stupid enough to wait to be shot while the person is reloading his gun (you couldnt pre-load due to moisture messing with the powder), these guns are close to the man Tiny tim.
2: I think guns would add a bit of variety to the game, expecialy if several people had guns and fired them at once into an army of baddys.
3: silver bullets... warewolfs? need i say more?
4: They should be new technology and should be EXPENSIVE, and hard to come by seing as how all of them are made by a select few by hand.
5: opperating medevil firearms took alot of skill and finesse, so make the skill requirements high.
(to get the joke about tiny tim vs. rammstein download \"tip toe through the tulips\" and \"du hast\")
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Taking a quote:
\"From now on PlaneShift will move to a First Person Action Game and will be based in a futuristic setting: year 15.000\"
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Originally posted by Butth34d
Taking a quote:
\"From now on PlaneShift will move to a First Person Action Game and will be based in a futuristic setting: year 15.000\"
Another evidence of that people read what they want to read and exclude the rest...
Tell me, why read only one news item and not read the following ones?
People angry, others amazed, shocked fans, a new project has started that will continue the fantasy setting of PlaneShift... all that happened in one day! Wait a second, ... think more about it ... you have been fooled by 1st of April joke! The heavy kran was a weird invention, nothing real!
Just thought I\'d like to point that out. :)
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Originally posted by Gronomist
Another evidence of that people read what they want to read and exclude the rest...
Tell me, why read only one news item and not read the following ones?
Just thought I\'d like to point that out. :)
Because we have no time or patience to read stuff we don\'t really care about and will forget in 5 minutes ?
just an offtopic thing - Forums seem to be serious rpg ruiners, it should be forbidden to know the people you play with. (or let people like me have offtopic posts in a thread)
^^
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Originally posted by Severeon
5: opperating medevil firearms took alot of skill and finesse, so make the skill requirements high.
Military speaking, wernt guns taken on due to there short training time, about 2 weeks or something like where an archer takes 2 years to train to put to efficient use. The whole idea is so you hand a gun over to a pesant, tell him to point and pull the trigger. What do you know one of the charging soldiers is (most likly to be) dead. Ok, he wont be able to reload but still, you give the same pesant a bow and it would take him about five minutes to hit something.
I have mixed feelings on bringing guns into the game, yes they would be fun and bring some more variety in the game but guns where the downfall of knights and other elitist hand to hand units, in the same way fighter aircraft using machine guns were replaced by fighters with missiles technollegy. And since this based around the medivel period (so im told) it would take alot out of being a knight.
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Shouldn\'t their be a chance of tempory blind/deafness to the user and those around him from firing a gun nearby? Also if u r carrying explosives and a person or mob does fire damage to u then their should be some chance of igniting the explosives causing effects simmilar to miss firing a gun.
Did early guns produce a lot of smoke? If so will this be implemented in game?
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If i wanted guns, I\'d go play a sci-fi game. But anyway, if guns were to be implimented, where would they fit in? Bows-fast attack speed, not as powerful; Crossbows-slow attack speed, more powerful then bows. If guns were put in, they would just end up replacing the crossbow.
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I promised myself I wouldn\'t get back in this thread I started but, okay Planeshift is a sci-fi game. Melbourne you meant FUTURISTIC Sci-fi which I assume.
I don\'t really care for guns anymore because quite frankly I\'m using hand-worn weapons but anyways even if I did want a gun I\'d want it expensive as hell to buy one. But it would be stronger than a crossbow or an arrow. Unless somehow the bolts or arrows have great mass at the penetrating area and faster speed?
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I think the gun idea is a very good idea. The first race that comes to mind are the dwarves. Hand cannons and stuff would be great. Sure it may have an advantage over that guy standing 10 feet away with a sword, but it could also have its disadvantages like say... guns are defective? Maybe you would have to be skilled in using the weapon enough so that it worked correctly. Loading time, much slower than a bow and arrow, and like Cyberchu had said, would cause lots of commotion like smoke and a potential of temporarily blinding your character. If a wizard can learn spells through studying ancient lore or however, then a blacksmith or some sort of fantasy mechanic should be able to figure out how to propel this a tiny ball from an apparatus.
People keep saying that it doesn\'t fit in a fantasy world, but isn\'t just about everything in a fantasy setting based upon something from the real world? We have swords, so in fantasy world you may have an enchanted sword. Most, if not all, monsters are based upon the real world, like if you play any other MMORPGs, they\'ll sometimes have a treeant (simply a tree given life), gray ooze (liquid...), golems (giant sized humans made out of rock, metal, etc.), and everything else. ALL BASED ON REAL LIFE.
People keep saying they\'d go play a sci-fi game if they wanted guns. I think these people have a bizarre image of guns ?_o. Just take a cannon, and make it about 5x smaller, and you have your really early, untrustworthy gun.
Though, they should be expensive and hard to find someone who makes them.
EDIT: OR if you\'d rather, maybe guns like hand cannons could ONLY be mounted onto something to be shot, not fired while holding in the air. Or maybe it would be allowed to be fired on mounts, like have some sort of special saddle put onto a horse (or whatever mounts they plan on using) to hold the gun.
Had not realized this was an old post... sorry -_-;;; *hangs his head ready to executed*
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While it\'s sort of active again.
Yeah, basic hand cannons would be cool. I\'d suggest that they\'d have to be crafted by a weaponsmith and alchemist, both at a high skill. And of course, the wielder must have good skill in weapon crafting, or they wouldn\'t know how to use the gun. Then you have the 10% success rate, and the 30% chance of it blowing your hand off. :) Would be a excellent weapon.
OT: I\'d like to see some type of firework as well. :)
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Fireworks would be cool but could they be used as small seige weapons?? Or used to attack large mobs??
Also Planeshift is young developing game, guns should be implemented further along its lifespan, we still have plenty of other weapons to be made yet!
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seeing as i play a pirate-like char. i think guns would be nice, since they had them duell shot hand pistols,
they would fit nicely under my belt next to the duel dagger i always carry
but lets first see what cb has to offer :)
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ok, maybe I\'m new but I have to fight for the guns! not rifles, like gunpowder guns sor something ?? I mean like the ones that can get a bulllet jams and creates a hole in the barrel?? like underdeveloped guns as in SO underdeveloped taht it is almost scuicide, and like really innacurate. the trick of the trade, some don\'t want guns some do, allow the guns, but make them so inefficient that few would use them, however, if a moster is hit by one, it is VERY high damage, but scince it is so inaccuratye etc... to use guns requires team coordination lots of skill, and tons of luck, but it\'s there, deadly(when it hits) and maybe piercing (goes through the frst body and hits the second for regular bow damage ????)
In short...
guns - yes
deadly - yes
accurate - no
hard to get - yes
hard to maintain - yes
lone adventurers wepon - no
relic - yes
and please do not say \"we are making a fantasy world\" because then you need to create substitutes for swords, shields, spears, staffs, and axes as known in the human world
I do however agree that ideas cannot be implenented as fast as they are given, I respect that, but I would implement a gun instead of a spell, even if it is just a box, or sphere, just to be experimental.
-- just my two cents in the big bottle
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Originally posted by Covetski
...
-- just my two cents in the big bottle
Hey, newbie! Get your two cents out of my ale! Oh, wait.. wrong bottle...
I like the way you put it, although I both understand and don\'t understand the \"teamwork\" aspect. would these be multiple gun-users? Or \"back up\" for the gun-user that they stand behind...
josePhoenix
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in order to actually have a chance at hitting something they have to shoot at one point almost simultaneously, and even then they would havet o cross their fingers if it is one monster/person
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But Kuiper said that the only way to get the gun was to complete the GODS quest...maybe when adding a little more thought to it...the gods can travel trought time ...a little gift from future wouldnt hurt now would it??
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well guns are not all bad but the type you showed is from the 18th century looks american look for muskets
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Well maybe the God won\'t bring a gun from the future...because people will think that the God will bring an M16A4 which is not true. The God quest is more of a test to see if you truly want the gun, the Gods will then let you if you finish a hard quest.
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I didnt read any of the other posts in this thread, but the opening one, i think guns would be great. i would love to see that happen in teh next version
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No! only hand cannons and the early muskets the where around in the 15th century!
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what about big mystical towers that have huge cannons on them that shoot large jolts of energy. thatd be pretty cool. have the owned.
Have each person be able to buy their own house, then be able to upgrade it, like make it a couple more stories higher, and be able to put that kinda tower on the top of it.
gawd, i have an odd imangination
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Originally posted by Kuiper7986
I understand where you\'re getting at and I agree with you, but it would be nice to choose another long-range weapon other than a bow and arrow :)
THey also have throwing weapons.
Maybe Blackpowder missiles would be neat. Hugely expensive, and you would have to use it as a defense for a guild HQ or something.
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name: everwood musket
appearance: made of everwood,a unqiue type of wood thats very strong and can hold a metal parts of the gun in place,this musket is used in two hands,its very slow and cumbersom and you need to keep the wick alight (in the way torches are used in other MMO\'s during night time),this can be done by simply having something to light it with,the wick also runs out after a set amount of time and needs to be relit,once every 5-10 minutes?
once u have the wick lit and the ammo in the gun u can realise an armour ignoring shot,not nessesarly a powerful shot.
in game use: it would be easier than it looks,a true sharp shooter would have in his inventory,something to light the wick,many bullets, maybe even some use for gunpower?
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What about those launchable fists xD The ones you see on a lot of robots. >:D
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I think guns could be added, but have to be added to fit the style of the game... The type of gun I could see being added would be an old chinese type.
A long tube open at one end and closed at the other. On the closed end there is a small hole at the top, the way they would load and fire would be to put the gunpowder in then the ball of lead. Use their ready torch and light the gunpowder from the hole in the top. Very primitive but it works.
Crafters could make these tubes and alchemists could create the gunpowder, and you could get bullets from your local smithy or melt them down yourself.
Like in the older days, you\'d have a chunk of lead and melt it down. Then you\'d slide the melted lead into a mold and let it cool.
It would have to be really primitive, no smokeless powder. It would be very useless at close range and a bit okay at far range. Mostly luck from atop a hill firing down on people in the valley.
You\'d have to have high skill in loading and aiming because if you put too much gunpowder in, the wood couldn\'t take the explosion and you\'d ruin your rifle.
I think that\'d work...
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Please please please No Guns!!!
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if there are guns i will plan a mass suicide in the game because there are guns implemented and then they will remove them! muhahahaha
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Well guns will be hard to obtain, perhaps if Planeshift has some sort of technology tree that evolves with the game. If someone uses their alchamy bench a lot then thery might discover something new. They might then tell the Ochtarch (sp) for recognition. That way, new spells and weapons like guns can eventualy be added. Also if the Planeshift team want to add some new stuff why not have somone discover it???
It\'s just an Idea.
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its far fetched but i think if they did put guns in the game and 2 guilds had a musket or rifle shoot out it would be pretty good,i dont mean machine guns and grenades lol,but even in our history during the imperial battles u had sword users,archers,musket men and cavelry all on the battle field.
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I will say it again.....Please No Guns!!!! :(
If you want guns go play Redmoon (the daydream server is free with 100x the exp)
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Heh heh heh, couldent resist : D
http://www.geocities.com/simonfilms/lemure-with-flintlock.jpg
: )
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It is probably the only weapon that lemeurs can use as well as anyone else.
j/k
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guys, having guns in PS wouldnt make much sense. The bow and arrow was much more accurate, had longer range, and was just as powerful as any gun of the day. Why would anyone use a weapon that was heavier, took longer to load, and was less effective? IMO, NO GUNS! not even cannons. When most people think of midevil Europ, they think of knights and swordsman and bowman and kings and queens and the like. Most people dont think of peasants wielding blackpowder muzzel loaders and cannons blasting away. It makes the game feel wrong. I think most people would agree with me.
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why guns? How about the same reason as in our history economy esspesialy on the battlefield. I mean whats more important acuracy or volume of fire?
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Guns only came along as a mainstream weapon near the end of the middle ages. during the early middle ages, they were more of a novelty item, a thing that made a loud noise and a lot of smoke. Guns didnt play large role in the history of the period, so i think they shouldnt be used in this game.
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Wow this thread has a longer life span than a healthy elf. Then again perhaps its not the original thread I once posted in.
I remember back when I had just discovered this game that Kuiper7986 mentioned something about guns and I was adversly opposed to the idea. But I recently played an older game which I finally tracked down a copy of called Arcanum and after finishing that game I can now appreciate the concept of guns being introduced into PS.
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But as you argue how \'useless\' they are, isent that an advantage to you??, a person that wouldent use one. basicaly i image, Mr Ga\'dess charging into the hords of little goblins, Running, Draws His Flintlock Pistol, Blows one to the ground at point blank range, a few scatter in fear. With A Spin he draws his saber slicing the necks of two more. Rasing his hands in the air, he calls apon the devine ice magic of the world and blows the rest to hell or somewhere even colder. breathing out he sits on a rock, reloads his flintlock and returns it to his belt.
The Flintlock Pistol would be used as a CCB weapon, just as you charge or sometime during the battle as the user see\'s fit. I am not talking about reloading in combat, becuse that would be stupid, pointless and result in painfull and repeditive stabbings. All Creatures around would need to take a moral check,(modifyers like how close they are, if there injured, there own moral level[gobbo compared to oger] to see the effects. The Pistol would produce a Single Shot capable of severe injury to a small creature, gobblin,(i dont know seeing as... i dont even know if there will be goblins!) Or a minor would on tiger/oger/troll something a bit bigger.
Just an idea
Personaly i dont see any point in 2 handed guns. But they would opperate the same as a bowman or crossbow man would.
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Do NOT put guns in, for it will totally ruin the game!
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how???
God You\'ve Got A Great Argument There! : P
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Why no guns?
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Originally posted by Cyberchu
Why no guns?
It has been argued many times previously. Please take time to read those previous arguments.
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WEEE HHAAVVEEE!!! I spen half an hour reading every single dam post, AND YOU HAVE YET TO COME UP WITH A DEFENATE ARGUMENT. ; D
http://www.geocities.com/simonfilms/lemure-with-flintlock.jpg
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this thread is like a zombie you know...you keep shooting it and you think it\'s dead to find out it keeps coming alive again. Maybe we need more firepower...
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Heh heh heh, my point exactly, mmmm mmm, the sweet smell of gunpowder in the moring
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Originally posted by Kuiper7986
this thread is like a zombie you know...you keep shooting it and you think it\'s dead to find out it keeps coming alive again. Maybe we need more firepower...
grabs landsknecht and proceeds to chop thread into tiny little peices
OOC: I can understand the reasoning behind guns I just do not belive they belong in this setting just yet.
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I Beleve They Would Be A Great Asset In Providing Choice and Difference For People, They Would Add A 4th Dimention! Now Try drawing that on your black board Mr Mathy
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*punches thread*
Stay down!
Who revived this!! X(
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Looks Around.... *whisles* .......
(http://www.geocities.com/simonfilms/lemure-with-flintlock.jpg)
heh heh heh
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Zellgadess, thats the third time you have posted that. It really isn\'t funny.
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Alas dear brother!! i find it quite humorous!
wouldent want any one to miss it you see, and the first two posts were but links, okok, i wont post it again
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Hey, I read through the entire thread before I posted, I was replying to Myrtl, I believe that guns should only be implemented further along PS?s lifespan. Either by players researching new technology (see researching new technology thread) or by the devs once they believe the time is right.
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I agree with you totally cyberchu but since there are actually quite a number of people who don\'t want guns in this game, it just doesn\'t matter to me, besides I wouldn\'t be using guns anyways, you know me by now (I use my combat gloves, or anything handworn for that matter.)
edit: :) thanks
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Kuiper Edit:
besides I would be using guns
TO
besides I wouldn\'t be using guns
Im ok with not using guns, i just think they would add more choice and people who dont like them dont have to use them. One thing i hate with some games is when everyone is the same....
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I actually like the image of the Lemur holding that gun. I was very surprised that it didn\'t even look out of place there. However, Lemurs look very much like aristocrats, which obviously would be using guns. He looks like just having shot someone in a duel. :)
That said, there is no need to post it more than once, and you can always edit the previous posts to change the link to an embedded image. Unless you manage it to get the gun fit in the paw of an Enki or a Kran without looking out of place. ;)
Anyway, I am fine with guns in PS, if they are primitive ones as proposed. I think they are some sort of surprise weapon, as they can be carried and hidden easily. Actually, to mitigate the reloading problem, you might carry several (4 or even more) guns that you use and drop, to pick them up and reload after the battle.
I\'m all for variety, and I don\'t see it ruining the game. I, however, think that they should be limited to pistol-like devices, no rifles. Rifles remind me of these western movies, but pistols I see as dueling weapons of the nobles, and as merchants weapons.
@ Cirque: this most likely is the very thread you posted in. It was created 09.05.2003, 16:15 by Kuiper7986. :)
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heh heh heh
(http://www.geocities.com/simonfilms/psflintlock.jpg)
What Can I Say?
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I like the idea of guns, it seems most people who oppose are thinking of Uzi 9mms or Colt M4s.
I think dwarves look cool with Blunderbusses! Guns didn\'t ruin the medieval setting of Warcraft now did they?
Flintlock pistols are very nice dueling weapons for nobles as Seytra pointed out.
I fail to see a problem with them.
As for the bow vs. guns... the bow requires much more skill to use, not to hit, but to use in general. Those who do have little dexterity can fire a gun in close range and hit something.
Myrtl, give a reason. How will guns \"totally ruin the game\"?
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flintlock pistals would be right but then we would also have to have flintlock musketts wich were invented first.
If you want to introduce guns into the game in a historical manner you will have to start with the mathlock rifle (blunderbus) wich if given any real acuracy would be totaly unrealistic. And it would have to be made more acurate than it acctualy was in order to make it worthwill for any single player to use.
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Why not leave it inaccurate? It was used in the past, obviously some people found it worthy. It should only be a novelty anyway.
I have no problem with including flintlock muskets (however they were not necessarily invented before pistols in Yliakum).
My only want, is that these guns are highly prone to failure, as they are experimental.
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in that case we would have to say that matchlock pistals were invented alongside the matchlock rifles
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@ Zellgadess: I really like your image, it should be the splashscreen for CB! :tup: :D
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Thanks Seytra :D
I Dont really care about guns anymore..... pphh
i just had fun maken the image :P
I Just Have A Nice Image Of Saber In One Hand And Flintlock Pistol In The Other :D
But I Dont Know If Thats What I Want For PlaneShift. I Think The Idea Of Flintlock Pistols Fits With The Beautiful City They Built Us ;) And The Races. Just I Dont Want To Make People Unhappy... But They Dont Need To Use Guns If They Dont Want To???, Only A Small Amout Of People Would Use Them.
The Thing is, Do People Want Choice? Or For Everyone To Be Exactly The Same As They Are?? :)
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What I Don\'t Understand Is Your Capitalization Of Every Word, Because I Think It Makes You Look Stupid. Perhaps That\'s Just My Opinion, But Then Again I Feel That Way About The Entire Thread.
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Originally posted by dfryer
What I Don\'t Understand Is Your Capitalization Of Every Word, Because I Think It Makes You Look Stupid. Perhaps That\'s Just My Opinion, But Then Again I Feel That Way About The Entire Thread.
A hahahaha...
How much extra time does it take you to put the caps in every word? :P
Zellgadess nice pic :)
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Its A Habbit, My Left Pinky Has A Weird Facination With The Shift Key, Personaly, I Think It Looks Very Formal : P
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my advice drop the all caps thing
people can have choice without adding guns from what I\'ve read they already tend to have a large varity of weapons