PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: empty_aka on January 27, 2010, 07:11:59 pm
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Hey there PlaneShift community, this is empty_aka from Germany! After i have commenced to like this game and read a lot about it, i got this idea to make trading, traveling and in general being out of range of guards/"police" or anything like that. Well, that's for short, and another thing i like to tell ya briefly: I love that damn game! :woot:
Okay, b2t now. First things first: Why?! The answer is quite simple: It's logical. In every community and society, crime exists. And there some who protect and some who cheat and so on. Watched areas are secure, while others are not secure, cause it should be impossible to secure all areas in our growing world.
The next part is my first example. Imagine a trader, who's on his route with his chaise. He knows the monster spawns and the shortest way to reach the designated town. There would be no risk and that's not the character of PlaneShift, like i consider it. Okay, now imagine the same situation with the gimmick of a "boarder zone". In this zone is no law, everyone is attackable, even if it's a guildmate. I think you all can imagine other examples on your own, there are some more.
These areas/zones/boarders would make another kind of job available. Robbers, organized teams of criminals, Guards, Bodyguards, maybe a messenger, the trader of course and a scout. Maybe some more, but i think you all understand what i mean. Most of these jobs can be done without skills, some need skills and in some cases, a special skill can enhance an ability (i.e. like a further sight for the scout).
This all would strengthen the bands of some players, enhances the access for an advanced economy and getting into business and (i love the following words) it's a nice adventure for a team. You need basics, comrades and a mix of types. On each side of course.
Now to the technical how-to. I don't know how this engine exactly works, but i think you developers already thought a bit further in the PVP section with the arena, or at least i hope you have. To determine the "lawless areas" should be a simple trick for ya, including the jobs and the enhancing skill ect. could be much more laborious, but i think you all can get it done.
I hope i didn't forget something, if i have, just tell me and i will add it ASAP. And excuse my english, it's not the best, but i think you all understand me. Well then, that's all from me for now. Thanks for this great game, with great potential and i hope the dev's will use it correctly!
Best regards, empty_aka 8)
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Yes, having PvP zones like this has been discussed before several times. Just do a search on "pvp zone" or something like that.
I for one was in favor of this and in fact would not mind seeing one however I feel its not necessary. You can role play this instead. Take a look at this link for example. You'll see here the logs from an event where players were literally held up as you described. There are also some pictures.
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=36370.0 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=36370.0)
Notice how in this case, since the players were not relying on the game to determine what they could or couldn't do, they had a lot more freedom. Do note that this was a random encounter. It could have happened to anyone.
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Indeed, there are (fortunately) roleplayers now and then who play rogues. Sometimes as planned events, even announced ones (across a week or so). -- Creating a PvP area is not even really necessary. We also had a lot of fun with "roleplayed battles" (hard to do well without godmodding and without "eternal defense ping-pong").
And there have also been GM events (e.g. kidnapping Jirosh Mikana in his shop in Ojaveda).
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Sh**, i knew that i've forgot something, i've searched other terms. Sorry for that, but now we're here and related to your both posts, i'll answer here. It would just be time wasting for others to go from topic, to topic.
It's a rollplaying game, of course it is. But it's a game, never forget this and most people don't need that much freedom. I mean not that much freedom in a Computer game like this MMORPG. It's like bringing many kinds of people together: Some want intense RP, some want just play, some want 30-70, others 90-10, you know? Including this feature won't take the possible RP event away, it just expands the possibilities for less RP performing players. And this only in the dedicated area and even there, the RP can be performed, it's just a matter of a short conversation before engaging and the fight is "real" instead of RP'd. Well, i'll trying to get deeper into that matter or my sight, however you want to call it.
The main sight is the sight of the customer. The customer wants in general a game with rules and freedom. Both in relation and very well balanced. The fact, that you can make RP conversations, events, fights and more RP stuff everywhere and that's the rule #1 is the rollplaying duty, determines much for RP lovers. But what about players who don't want RP that much? And don't tell me, that they should join the Non-RP server. I generally hate it to separate people, even if they're living in different worlds (but that's my personal sight and has nothing to do with PlaneShift). I feel, that RP begins with a simple:"Greetings stranger, what's your designation, that you're traveling that far?", if he just don't want to chat, he would just write:"/me Ignores the nosy mercenary and moves straight away". In every other case, you can imagine the possibilities yourself. This is possible for every other case and it's still a game, where the merchant can be attacked later on by the mercenary or someone else. Cause it could be possible in a RP session too. And it's kinda real and logic.
The second sight, is the sight of the dev's. A game takes a really heavy payload of effort. Of course, they want something back later on. But will the community grow this much to support everything, only with RP? I don't think so and it's just not economic. Pure RP just don't need a computer game, pure RP just needs imagination. A game can use RP every time, it's fun, it's interesting but a game needs more than only imagination. It needs defined rules, possibilities, laws for the community. You could name it "safety", that's why we want to imagine with this game.
And at least clarify one thing: An idea like this won't take away anything, it adds just a possibility. I hope you get my point of view.
Best regards empty_aka
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Well, if you want a real fight all you need to do is to /challenge someone.
ie. /challenge Doofus
If Doofus consents then you will be able to duke it out using the game's mechanics. That is what happened in the event that I linked in the previous post. It was a nice mixture of RP and PVP.
Now, say you want more realism, you want to be able to jump Doofus without his consent because having to ask permission is not realistic. In that case, you would simply log onto ezpcusa where other like minded players play. You can RP a little there if you really want but more than likely you'll just get impaled while your typing by someone who doesn't care much for RP.
There is a setting that makes your character automatically accept challenges ( on laanx ). Some players do keep this enabled.
In my opinion it boils down to consent. If you consent to being able to chop each other down at the knees willy-nilly then ezpcusa is for you. If you do not consent to this sort of play then Laanx might be a more palletable choice.
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i dunno how related this is to pvp, but to add to his whole crime thing, is pickpocketing gonna be a skill ever?
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Chances are, because it has at all been taken into consideration. It will just be a matter of "when" and "how".
I could e.g. imagine a probability of a system message appearing if the thief failed; and maybe even an option to enable it only on purpose (similar to auto-accepting challenges), to protect newcomers who are not yet rich at all -- at least on a Roleplaying Server, (IMHO) it should be a roleplaying related skill, and roleplaying relies on fairness.
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If a RP fight is consented between two characters, then i say it is ethical that you can harm the other person, but there has to be an equality to it. Example: a big muscleman can punch a puny guy in the face and knock him to the ground, but the puny guy can always kick him where the sun doesn't shine. I think that in RP fighting, both sides should be able to fight.
If a RP fight is not consented between two players, and a character gets hurt/killed, then of course it's God-Modding for the first person to attack. Here is a really complicated statement that can perhaps simplify things: IF :devil: + :surrender: = dead :surrender: [ :innocent:] THEN :surrender: [ :innocent:] = :@#\
When it comes to being careful of not God-modding in a RP fight, I think that a God will just kill them by saying /me kills Geoni, and then Geoni has no choice but to die. It doesn't take a "God" to knock somebodies sword out of their hand, and then quickly slash them in the throat killing them, but it takes a good RP'er to let the other player have a chance to grab at your sword after their's was knocked out of their hand, and then so on and so forth. It is a touchy subject imo, but I've been in some RP fights where i felt that i didn't have the chance to retaliate, and it didn't give me the satisfaction i wanted out of the RP.
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Here is a really complicated statement that can perhaps simplify things: IF :devil: + :surrender: = dead :surrender: [ :innocent:] THEN :surrender: [ :innocent:] = :@#\
its to complaicated...i dont get it lol
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oopsy screwd the quote up...wow i suck again
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Did you know that you are able to modify your posts? ;)
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i did not
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Oh man... Human beings can be so powerful minded and then, they're sometimes slower than a snail. Sorry, but that's for every crying carebear. Further someone seems to misunderstand the things "discussing" and "constructive criticism". Who really read my posts will understand my view. I can challenge everyone, of course, but being in a PVP area, without rules, where everyone can attack everyone is just another different thing, that would give this game another aspect and more... Something special about it.
The trading example was just, maybe someone knows it, an example. If this idea would be implemented, there could be a save route for carebears and a not so save route for those who want to risk something (or course a route of half the way as the carebear route). If a group of rouges caught a single trader and they're gonna make a RP of it, the trader just can run away cause he don't want to loose all his stuff. Where's there the logic? It's a game and if you want something, then you have to risk something.
When a group of robbers attack a trader guarded by group of mercenaries, in a lawless area, both sides knew the risks about it. Of course they will engage the enemy immediately but that's the reason, why there's such an area. Instead they could do some RP before the fight starts. But fairness afterwards will be definitively rare.
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Logic, logic ... uuhm ... it is a game, and the game world is supposed to be more satisfying than the real life. Mainly for the traveler who decides to escape the rogues. Not many players really enjoy to lose in a game. Not all players are "good roleplayers" even. Let alone experienced.
Feel elite playing a rogue. Feel elite playing a traveler who surrenders his destiny being robbed by a superiority.
Or be cooperative and contact your victim to get an OOC agreement before the IC raid starts.
You have to decide for you as player as well as for your character.
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Isn't doing quests right, killing monsters and sometimes players and exploring a world on your own satisfying enough?!
Seriously: Why are you all so afraid of loosing things, loosing battles ect.? Esp. when you have the choice to choose another path??? It seems that some of ya just be awkward.
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Ok, I'm trying but I'm not quite getting your point
I can challenge everyone, of course, but being in a PVP area, without rules, where everyone can attack everyone is just another different thing, that would give this game another aspect and more... Something special about it.
If this is what you want - PVP everywhere then when you log on choose ezpcusa instead of Laanx. Ezpcusa is the pvp server. No matter where you are on this server you can just go nuts and attack at will.
If a group of rouges caught a single trader and they're gonna make a RP of it, the trader just can run away cause he don't want to loose all his stuff. Where's there the logic? It's a game and if you want something, then you have to risk something.
The game mechanics do not permit you to forcibly steal from another player. This needs to be consentual. The victim player needs to either drop and item or give it to you. A good role player will react as if they are really being held up. They may *attempt* to flee, pay up, or kick your butt. As a baddie you need to accept the fact that you may get stomped on, robbed, or dragged by your collar to the nearest guard. If you encounter a guard you may get tossed in jail. You then get to RP being a prisoner ;)
When a group of robbers attack a trader guarded by group of mercenaries, in a lawless area, both sides knew the risks about it. Of course they will engage the enemy immediately but that's the reason, why there's such an area. Instead they could do some RP before the fight starts. But fairness afterwards will be definitively rare.
On a PVP server like EZpcusa you could try to rp but more then likely you would just get chopped down while typing. On a roleplaying server like Laanx you would be able to role play since it is consentual.
If you are interested in learning to role play a bad guy then just say so. There are plenty of bad guys in this game who would enjoy a new partner in crime.
Good luck :)
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@ empty_aka:
We don't enforce the use of game mechanics to develop the character. "Free play" is allowed too. Ad-lib roleplaying. No need for STR=200 to play the strongman.
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Nah thank you but it seems, that i've to try it again. :'(
I like RP very much, it's fun, relaxing and i can better dive into my characters role. That's not the reason why i want such areas. And i love PVP, i was born in PVP games, loved EVE online a lot (was one of those only 0.0 players, with baaad security ;D ). Well, now you know that i like both. But the fact, that i've to choose here now to play on a RP server OR an PVP server sucks. :(
So the idea to have PVP areas on a RP server (just take the example with the shorter routes through lawless areas), would do quite well, cause i've both and can truly enjoy my role i'm playing as a trader who risks his life, stuff and wares. Or as the bodyguard who will protect the client with my own. Or just as a scout, observing the situation, level, whatever. And then, the rouges appears! Adrenalin rushes through you, cause you know they could kill you, if they can kill you guards and you pay 'em. Doing RP through the battle should'nt be a big problem for those, who can write a bit faster and observe the rest as well.
You just can get another feeling, like the one i've described, you can get deeper into you role as whatever you are, if you get some adrenalin, you can even truly feel your role. Got it now? :detective:
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the 2 pvp area in game are usually used just to do ambush on players, maybe even new players for the pwnz result. No rp, nothing: just kill and bully.
Sometimes it happened some rp like someone who scammed people for a resource brought them in camp banished and killed them but most of the situations is the above. even two days ago a developer was killed by players while he was trying a mob in the dlayo pit...
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Hi Weltall, ein Landsmann, wie ich vermute? :P
Such an area should be marked as a PVP area. Like "You notice, that this place isn't save. Further you notice a lot of humanoid bones here" in brackets "(you've just entered the PVP zone, be aware of fighting other players without reason)". That should do the work, everyone will know the risks. And what to a developer happens, isn't really important, he should have the means to prevent his own death, or not?
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A truly great idea. ...and if one does not wish to take the short path through the PvP zone, they can take the long way around. I like surprise and feel it an important element. Some RP, that is scripted or over-planned, is just boring and of no interest to me. I would welcome the feeling of "fearing for what may happen" in such a zone. It was a feeling I had much when first playing, but now almost never have. hehe, I would also enjoy the surprise the robber might get when trying to attack the "wrong" victim. Again, if one does not desire such a wild PvP area, they simply go the long way around. See you there.
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not if they are testing npc. they need to be attackable by players if in a pvp area, sure they can teleport back but that's annoying (load time are quite high on big maps)... really you see the red label it's not a nice thing to kill someone who isn't playing
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Sure. Just thought a kick/ban thread should do the trick.
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ya but pvp really is for ezp i guess, you should at least yell somthing before atting, like im gonna get ya or somthin
i've been attacked several time in the dlayo pit [mostly by vvallace :\]
but i can ususally defend mysef well enough to kill the attacker
warning of people coming is a necessity, especially for new poeople
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I can't agree Earowo, an assassin for example need the surprise. In PVP, the most important thing is to think different. You've to change your behavior and if you're doing that, you will be quite secure. And even with such areas, it's your choice to take the risk or not. That's just a basic rule of life man >o)
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its true
but assassination would really be the only thing pvp is good for besides several people fighting to the death or a barbarian ranpaging around
not a lot of variety
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@ empty_aka:
("weltall" is based on a mech - not directly on the german word for "outer space". He is not german.)
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I vote no to this idea. Not within Yliakum.
Perhaps, if/whn a part of the Stone Labrynths is created.
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@ LigH: Achso, danke. Wieder etwas dazu gelernt. ;)
@ Earowo: If you're playing an assassin, you're physically weak. You're fast, silent and so on, but you could never beat a barbarian or every other kind of fighter. With an assassination strike, you're able to weaken you enemy, so that's in my sight, the only chance to survive in such a fight.
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the flaw to being an assain is everybody runs the same speed, there is nothing to train to make you run faster or jump higher or anything
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A truly great idea. ...and if one does not wish to take the short path through the PvP zone, they can take the long way around. [...]
I can't disagree with that (although I don't care much for PvP), if the zone looks obviously dangerous... but not too long the detour; there are already enough complains about long distances on this forum. ;)
Some suggestions about where one would put such a zone, in case the idea gets support from the dev. team?
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Being that we are talking about doing this on Laanx ( the RP server ) I would ask "Would this add anything to roleplay or would it take away from it ? "
I don't see this adding anything simply because you cannot force someone to role play by putting game mechanics in their way. Those who role play respect the rp environent and react to it. They treat the rp world as if its real for the most part. I think at best it would add some pvp action if the benefit to taking the shortcut was worth the risk.
Scenario 1.
Miner Joe has spent and hour or two mining and is ready to unload. He could care less about RP. He is just interested in leveling or hoarding tria which is fine because he is not bothering anyone. To each his/her/kra own.
A.
* A player sees the miner taking the pvp shortcut and tries to rp with him. "Halt ! Or I'll beat you with that sack of platinum ore !"
* The miner thinks "another stupid roleplayer wasting my time" and walks right though him as if he's not there.
* One of the players takes out the other player in a pvp duel.
* If the baddie wins he gains nothing - the plat follows the miner to the DR.
How did the pvp zone enhance RP in this case ?
It added nothing. People who dont rp .. well.. they just dont rp. period.
B.
* A role player sees the miner and tries to rp with him
* The miner is a roleplayer himself. He plays the part of being held up and even offers some plat for safe passage.
Can we really give the pvp zone credit for enhancing rp in this case ?
Did the miner RP being a victim because of the pvp zone ? or would he have done so without the pvp zone ?
C.
* Six baddie rpers decide to control the shortcut from the mines to the smelters. They block off the pvp zone and are prepared to strike. They are playing hardball. They impose a tax of 5000 tria per person to pass safely.
* Those miners who don't rp find the ordeal to be annoying. They use /tell, /1 or /guild to summon some help OOCly
* Those who are roleplayers rp the situation because they are role players - not because of the pvp zone.
* Some miners get killed and are steaming mad because they are overloaded now. They put you on their kill list - whether you were disguised or not. They will be sure to annoy you in the future.
* Some miners kill off the baddies and are now glad that they are gone. They quickly forget about it and go back to mining.
What did this add to rp ?
In a game where you drop your possessions on the ground when you die this might attract some pvp action since there would be a reward for doing it.
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Non-RPers aren't welcome on Laanx, so the examples that include those kind of situations should not happen - or the victim should learn from it.
In the case it does happen and the victim proves to be unwilling to learn or understand, then you can always use /report and have them sent to epzc. where they'll prolly be a lot happier.
Personally I think it's a fantastic idea. It gives reason for folk to take travel more seriously [It's dangerous to travel outside the city!], and even ask for a bodyguard in Hydlaa.
"Greetings sir, I have a meeting in the bronze doors, could you please escort me safely through the wilderness? I'm a poor man, but I can offer you one golden circle for your troubles.'
Though maybe a safe route on the side of the map would be appreciated for those who *really* do not want to be disturbed with whatever they're doing.
Just my two tria :)
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Thought I'd point out EZPCUSA isn't a PVP server (or at least wasn't last time I checked).
It's simply non-RP.
Bigger PvP zones would mean when griefers wish to grief any and all players they can do so at ease, not what PlaneShift as a game wants.
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I will try to clarify it again.
Lawless trade route:
Such a route would add the possibility of a real encounter, during a trading run in a group. In this group, you can gather many kinds of characters, as everywhere else i think but the difference is, that a fight at the end will definitive brings an end in a fight. An end for the traders or rouges. If the rouges do a little bit RP before engaging the trader group isn't important, cause both "teams" got their destination. RP in each group is doing well and everyone's having fun. But they know, that they can be ambushed by rouges, that danger gives that situation more action, reality, maybe adrenalin.
Secured trade route:
Same es before, but you can't loose (what's very strange in a game). You don't even have to form a group, cause you don't have to be afraid of been robbed, or even killed on your run. You're doing some RP with the rouges, give something to them, cause they can't kill you and steal you whole stuff and they will never know what you're trading.
My personal sight of the PVP part and how it's handled in PS:
For me RP and PVP should never separated from each other. Anyways, both got their fans. Some want only RP, some only PVP and that's... Bleh to me you know? I could take thousand examples of only RP or only PVP or even only PVE games and that's all bullshit. Only the combination of those parts can make a game really great. There's no fun forever killing monsters, looting stuff, selling it and sitting on all that gold and stuff. Further, there's no fun with only PVP related games. You kill players 1000 times, get killed by 1000 players. Only RP (ohhh i will antagonize many people now... ^^) sucks too, cause i'm talkin' 2 hours of gameplay without getting dynamic fighting action. It seems that most people just don't understand, that a balance between things, make those really great.
Don't get me wrong, i really like PS and have already spend some hours with making friends, helping others and so on. It's OS and runs well (except on my Fedora 12 but WinXP so i don't care that much ^^[It's a driver problem for those who care]) and PS got sh*tloads of potential. But the balance isn't well, like i've already suggested. So i'll suggest to change things, a bit at a time.
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Griefers ruin everything, nuff said.
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Maybe they can, but where should a griefer mesh up here? And it's not nuff if you don't explain. :P
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In a mature and rational world, your ideas would work fine.
In reality, I don't see them as practical.
I too would love broad pvp zones off the roads, but griefers would do things like lure newbs off the road and kill them.
The good mobs and loots are mostly off the roads, so when you're off the roads griefers would just kill spam anyone they find.
It might be your idea of fun, but many players would simply leave rather than face the grief.
Imo you're applying rational thought in a manner that simply would not mesh with the reality of how and why people play with different styles.
I have spent years watching WAR between rper and pler types on these forums before providing alternative servers for varied play styles. Sure we'd all like everyone to get along. I am sure that as soon as war and poverty are eradicated from the real world your proposal will make sense for use in PlaneShift.
I am glad you are enjoying the game, and hope you'll continue to.
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I like it how it is, allows for fair and fun RP. Use a /shout if you want to stop me, we can RP a little, someone can die, if that's how the situation ends up, and the other can run away rubbing whatever wounds of conflict he has.
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Mh i see the "war" is over and the griefers won, that's bad but reasonable. I thought you developers are able in corporation with GMs and players to achieve a victory here. That's too bad. :(
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I thought you developers are able in corporation with GMs and players to achieve a victory here. That's too bad.
Huh ?
Stick around a while and play the game for a few months and you'll get a better feel for what the game is about. If you want to get a well rounded feel for how the game is played you might want to consider joining a role playing guild, or meeting some role players in game. Good places to find role players are the Stonehead in Gugrontid, The Red Crystal Den in Hydlaa, Kada El's ( very hit or miss.. a mix of good rp and terrible rp ), Ojaveda ( when Kore Irka Clan plays ).
Also look at this link .. make post an entry describing your character(s) ;)
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=32766.0 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=32766.0)
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The 'Lawless trade route' and 'Secured trade route' idea has been discussed in the past (I for one am in favour).
The outcome was that too many people (developers included) dislike (ideologically in some cases) the idea of free PvP for it to become a priority to do (make the different routes etc).
However it was never ruled out entirely. Perhaps it will happen some day on ezpcusa, but probably not on laanx unless it's a great success.
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I have to agree with empty_aka here. Having lawless areas would be great. Honestly, never having to fear another player takes away something of the realism. Lawless areas could be implemented en route between places, but there could but there could be longer, more roundabout ways to get where you're going if you really want to avoid a dangerous area. That way, those who don't want to subject themselves to danger can still get where they're going, and those who want to have PvP can. I think it could work out beautifully.
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If you want open pvp just set your characters to auto-accept challenges, announce in the gossip channel where you are going and that you are looking for trouble and trouble is likely to find you. It would be kind of nice if auto accept was a bit different in that two people with it set would not have to /challenge to have a fight and generally an attack on another character triggered the challenge for thepeople who do not auto accept. Issuing a challenge is a bit of a pain. Of course I auto-refuse. In this case the only time challenge spam rules would be triggered is for those with always ask enabled.
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My impression would be that the shortest route between two trade locations is most likely to be patrolled and therefore less dangerous.
Perhaps one day we can provide some sort of award for playing with auto accept on for fighting to encourage its use. I do like the realism of everyone being vulnerable to attacks, but I fear the maturity level of players, coupled with the anonymity of the internet makes this impossible to do without a lot of coding to counteract the basic tendency to exploit mechanics and grief other players for the sake of it.
I've seen what "pvp-rp" servers play like, and it is NOT rp at all. Rp only happens within "safe-zones" in this type of set up, and that is with vastly superior AI than what ps will be able to muster any time soon. Go to the Age of Conan forums and see how this plays out for hundreds of pages.