PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Under the moon on April 01, 2010, 08:33:25 pm
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Moved the story to here: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37306.msg424596#msg424596
You may continue complaining in this thread. :)
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:o
/me takes a copy of this document to the Hall of the Hammer.
BTW: I have a talent for spotting typos... ;) -- First chapter: Yla<=>ikum
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I also am an ex-member of the planeshift settings team and the last couple of posts here sadden me, as a member of the settings team I signed a document assigning copyright for my work for PlaneShift to ABC, I have not and would not even consider trying to remove my work.
Once upon a time there was a rich kid who joined a kindergarten, be brought with him loads of wonderful toys and games that he gave to the school for all the children to enjoy, unfortunately he had a falling out with one of the Teachers, for reasons not needed for this tale, and decided to leave the kindergarten.
This child returned a few days later and decided to take all his toys back all because of the disagreement, and now he has returned once again to hang around outside the kindergarten gates showing off his new toys and calling over the fence "look at these, you'll never be able to play with them"
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I don't really get it. As long as those stories stayed buried in the hidden treasure chests of the settings department nobody was able to play with them. And maybe never ever would have been able. Now there are some toys that can be used until settings says something different...so for the next years.
Ahh...maybe I just really get it wrong and you mean the settings members with the kindergarten kids not the players. This picture would at at least explain why they are hoarding everything. But still I don't see anything wrong with taking some toys from a few to offer them a much larger audience.
Right now Utm offers at least some things to play with ... maybe it gets reverted at some point, but right now it's usable for players. So the "look at these, you'll never be able to play with them" isn't exactly true and for sure better than a "Be patient kids, we will give all kids in the kindergarten toys...just bad that you all will have started with school by then."
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I'm not surprised that Aiwendil with your own particular axe to grind would try and put your own spin on it. The only real kindergarten kid is the one having a hissy fit taking his toys away.
... I am retracting it and thus it is no longer official. This, or any other edited version of it may not be used as official game content. ...This history is for you to read and enjoy, not to be used for roleplaying purposes in the game.
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Utm made it public and I see no reason to not use it as long as there is nothing from settings that contradicts it. So you are right, he shouldn't have said to not use the texts in game...but it's up to the players if they respect that wish or not. And seeing LigH's comment or the other comments in the A long Journey - my history of the Lemur (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37120.0) thread it looks as if they don't respect it. But no sense in talking with you....you have your opinion I have mine. There is no need to convince the other.
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Also, Hoki's opinion is wrong.
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as utm said himself the whole thing was automatically made ooc the exact time he asked for removal an posted them here. so no... if you use them you are ooc period.
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It is not to be used in game as the actual history, but if you asked Under the moon nicely he might let you use it as storytelling material in-game.
If like so many other pieces of work, it was kept in storage, what is the issue?
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Thy issueth is.... thou shall nay knoweth them PS setteengs, everytheen unofficial be OOC!!
Shut down thy PSwiki! Remove all players that use unofficial infos, BANHAMMER all those sinners because they will fill your head with the wrong ideas. Matters not whether there is or not official data to fill those holes, holes are preferable to indiscriminate falsehood.
Solution: Burn the witches and fill the holes with rats and other mobs so that swords keep in motion.
(http://www.millionface.com/l/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/superb_pics/mouse_peeping_through_cheese_hole.jpg)
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Line fixed.
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Aww, thanks Utm. Still using the old quotes here to answer though.
as utm said himself the whole thing was automatically made ooc the exact time he asked for removal an posted them here. so no... if you use them you are ooc period.
Sorry, I can't find where he says this gets OOC.
note from the author- Another history I wrote for the game. As with the Lemur history, I am retracting it and thus it is no longer official. This, or any other edited version of it may not be used as official game content. The contents of this history are completely original by me, and do not reuse any previous official content aside from the dwaven names. Some minor edits have been made by others. This history is for you to read and enjoy, not to be used for roleplaying purposes in the game.
note from the author- These are books that I have written for PlaneShift while on the team. They were intended for (or were) ingame books. I am retracting them from the official game, though, due to issues I will not talk about here. That makes them 'fan' stories, no longer official, and thus go here for you to enjoy. Look for more from my collection soon.
As far as I see he only states the texts became unofficial, in one of his disclaimers he didn't even ask people to not use it in game. And not so sure if I would say unofficial and OOC are equal. All guild histories are unofficial...but forbidding to use them because they are OOC even to people who should know about them isn't much of a support for roleplay. But maybe it's only about stories in this part of the forum and not guild posts...with such perls (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=30664.msg351076#msg351076) and diamonds (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=36983.0) in those forums I guess it is fine if the guild members use those infos ICly. And the not so well written stories (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=33962.0) must be ignored because they are OOC, even if a character was there when it happened in game.
So sorry...I really see no reason to dismiss anything just because it is not official. Players make their own histories for their chars, create their own background knowledge for them and use this in game. I don't think it's nice to tell everyone their background stories where they made up names, history and maybe even the roles of their parents in the history of a race are invalid when there is no word from settings yet about this. They might become invalid as soon as they contradict the known setting and this can happen if settings releases something about it. But as long as there is no official word of settings contradiction it, I think players should be free to use these posts. These posts are nice to give players an inspiration for their background...not that they could look somewhere else for official inspiration on these topics.
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Yeah, when UtM left, he said a few times in public that he never signed the PlaneShift NDA/licence. Therefore, none of his stuff can be used for the game. Before XilliX's untimely demise, he had everything rewritten.
So if you use these "histories" for your RP, you're likely to be contradicting the stuff that the team has had to work hard to make, delayed by UtM's lack of copyright handover. Let's just say if he had signed the document this would be ingame, but because he never did, it CANNOT, therefore, since you prefer a good pure RP, I wouldn't suggest you use this for the simple fact it sadly can NEVER be official settings.
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Players can use it how they want, Talad can not profit from it. I am fine with that. :)
You would be surprised at the number of people that never signed. I am unique in the fact that I admitted it. But, like I said, I would rather dump my stuff in the trash and never have it seen by the light of day than to have Talad even attempt to profit from it.
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Oh snap!
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People who didn't sign the ABC license by purpose to damage the game are just showing their true nature. Also by posting the above you broke the NDA. Both the NDA and copyright assignment have been explained to you in the on boarding meetings and you explicitly accepted that when entering jayose and nexus. People like you are the reason we need a closed license for content.
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Those who can not debate the facts of a matter in fear of losing to their opponent often resort to undermining the character of said opponent without offering any facts of their own, thus attempting to render their opponent's facts impotent.
One of us is a liar in this matter. Only one of us can back up the points with actual facts. The other will likely say they are covered under the NDA, so can't be talked about in public, or deny them outright and arbitrarily.
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I think the next recruit to the team should probably be a professional public relations person. The problem here is that the perception of the situation is all that counts to the community-at-large. Talad, you need to stop posting on here, tLGT, and MMORPG. Except for announcements. No matter who is wrong or right here, there is a proper way to deal with these sorts of situations and the various postings from you are not the way. I'm sorry to butt in, but it needed to be said.
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The facts are under the sun, and available to everyone. We are providing a free service since 8 years, and we building this game for free, for the passion we have in RPGs. All the rest is just trolling and ranting.
Nowhere I stated that PS will be pay to play after 1.0, in no way I've been "dishonest" like you state, and in no way I said I will sue people who dare to speak badly of PS, and there are no actions on my side that are even close to that, or that can support such a thesis. So you just speak out of vengeance and grief, for something I still have to understand. There are no facts in your claims.
We tried to defend our assets in the best way possible given our resources, for the benefits of the players and of the devs. Surely Microsoft will have a better way to enforce his license, but we are not a large software company, and we have no money to pay for lawyers every day. If someone will explicitly try to damage our work, we will do our best to stop him.
I don't see why you are so angry against me or PS, I did nothing to you. I'm here to build a game, if you don't like the game or us, just move on, there are plenty of games out there.
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I think the next recruit to the team should probably be a professional public relations person. The problem here is that the perception of the situation is all that counts to the community-at-large. Talad, you need to stop posting on here, tLGT, and MMORPG. Except for announcements. No matter who is wrong or right here, there is a proper way to deal with these sorts of situations and the various postings from you are not the way. I'm sorry to butt in, but it needed to be said.
A professional public relation person will probably just delete all inappropriate posts and post standard answers. Also a standard company will just not expose at all the devs to any resource like irc channels, forums or other public media, so that people just have no hooks to start trolling and debates on. That is also probably the best way. I still find nice to speak with players, and give my point of view, but I understand that's sometimes not proper.
The exposure feeds the trolls, that's sure. I'm not sure there is a real solution to this problem.
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Well, a PR person would still do what you wanted, insofar as you are the director. I was meaning more to the crafting of responses and policy to handle situations like this. I can appreciate that the situation may be driving you mad, but quickie responses that apportion blame are not in your best interests in this situation. Thanks...
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Not everyone with a different opinion is automatically a troll. Except you really believe in "§1 of the Boss". ;)
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To be brutally honest I think UtM should try running his own development project. His own level of arrogance will quickly bring the project down. Not once in a conversation that I have witnessed has he ever admitted he is wrong, and he usually resorts to calling his opponent 'noob' or other insults just because their opinion differs to his.
Not painting Talad as an angel, everyone has faults, but really, UtM is just a pot calling a kettle black, and black's not exactly a nice derogatory term to use these days.
Notice how XilliX, someone who was also fired from the PlaneShift devteam, has not come on here and publicised his work and made a big show and cry. I haven't even seen a word by him against Talad here. Bitching about someone all over the other person's community board is just unprofessional and goes to show why I donate art to the people I donate to.
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Quote from the previously referred page: http://www.blendernation.com/planeshift-project-recruiting-blender-artists/ (http://www.blendernation.com/planeshift-project-recruiting-blender-artists/)
Luca Pancallo Apr 12th, 2007 at 11:29 am
Hi,
thanks for your comments. Let’s clear out some wrong rumors about the project:
1) All contributors are listed in the credits, and they are not removed. We have a “short” list displayed in the game itself to give evidence of the people that worked most on it, and more recently. There is a “full” list shipped with the game on text file will all names and accomplishments.
Not being familiar with game development and the like, who would know to look for such a file ?
I as a player would never think to *look* for such a thing, and thus would never notice it. From my perspective, the people who worked on the project are those listed in the clearly visible credits section of the website - which I did read out of curiousity.
As for the ABC license and NDA, imposing an NDA on someone without compensation is kind of a one sided deal. It gives you the right to sue, and the other peson the right to BE sued. In the business world NDA's go hand in hand with some form of additional material compensation.
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Many, many many prospects and even some Associate Devs who put countless hours into editing or creating original content for PS or working on official events are not listed in the credits. Only a fraction of people who worked on PS are listed.
I am one of the Associate Devs who is not and never was listed.
Now, you might wonder why I think I should be listed in the credits when I pulled all my original work out of the game. Well, I only pulled my original work from the game. My countless hours of editing others' work still remains. The ideas that I contributed that have been built upon by others still remain. The official events that I wrote and ran still remain. The input I gave to several key new areas of the game still remains. Basically, my original work is a minor part of what I did in PS. Most of what I did is still in the game.
To Akkaido/Xoel, I pity you. I fail to see where I "bitched" about Talad all over his board. I had made only one other post in a month, and it was unrelated to PS. I simply responded with the truth when he decided to drag this thread back up (after no one posted in it for almost a month) to question my nature. To respond to an earlier comment by you, no, these stories would not have been ingame by now. They were meant to go in the Vault of Ages in the city of Arden. Last I looked, there was no Arden addition to PS. Your last post was just very poor form all around, full of half-truths, blatant (and wrong) assumptions, and outright lies. But, I have come to expect rabid defending of PS from you without any proof.
Behold my bad behavior in all its glory. http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=12100;sa=showPosts;start=0
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I see...asking for a forum account to be deleted (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=32636.msg415689#msg415689) isn't enough here. Seems some unknown forum rules even doesn't allow people to ask for deletion (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=36545.0) of their account. The only real way to get it deleted is posting something speaking against the all-mighty, red named admins of the forum...No problem, let me try this too. Should have expected this knowing that it took more than half a year and a lot of asking all the time from my side to only get my GM rights removed...but sure, that's nothing important at all. No problem that I could login as GM even after leaving the team and buy as many holy helmets in NPCroom1 as I wanted...and of course also no problem that I was able (if I really had wanted to) to read the posts in the GM board the whole time. I bet nobody had minded if I read what GMs talk in a thread called "Talking with Lhaa and Aiwendil" or something similar. That's how PS works....the only thing that is really fast in PS is the bashing down of people who dare to not glorify the game all the time.
But let me try to stay a bit on topic...okay, I know, trying is already meant to fail as for the original topic of the thread there is not much else left to say than "Good work Utm." So I am a bit sorry about leaving the topic of your stories Utm and reply to some others here.
People who didn't sign the ABC license by purpose to damage the game are just showing their true nature. Also by posting the above you broke the NDA. Both the NDA and copyright assignment have been explained to you in the on boarding meetings and you explicitly accepted that when entering jayose and nexus. People like you are the reason we need a closed license for content.
People who use all means to silence others and then justify their actions because it is for a greater good also do a very good job in showing their true nature. But leaving that aside...I hope you only speak of the developer's part of Jayose...nobody asked me to sign or discussed a NDA with me when I got my GM account in the library. The only reason why I never made some logs of chats with gm team members public is because they asked me not to...and I have to say it was hard at times to not post logs of GMs on their opinions about favoritism when being told off in public by them denying that there is any favoritism at all.
I think the next recruit to the team should probably be a professional public relations person. The problem here is that the perception of the situation is all that counts to the community-at-large. Talad, you need to stop posting on here, tLGT, and MMORPG. Except for announcements. No matter who is wrong or right here, there is a proper way to deal with these sorts of situations and the various postings from you are not the way. I'm sorry to butt in, but it needed to be said.
I must agree there...I always thought Xillix was bad in public relations...but Talad is a plain disaster. But the tLGT posts were funny to read...shows that posting without reading what others said before is not really a very bright idea.
A professional public relation person will probably just delete all inappropriate posts and post standard answers. Also a standard company will just not expose at all the devs to any resource like irc channels, forums or other public media, so that people just have no hooks to start trolling and debates on. That is also probably the best way. I still find nice to speak with players, and give my point of view, but I understand that's sometimes not proper.
The exposure feeds the trolls, that's sure. I'm not sure there is a real solution to this problem.
Nobody asked for a professional public relation person...just for a person that is actually able to talk with people without having all the hatred shining though all the posts. And for someone who reads what others says before replying. With Xillix gone it seems there aren't many PS staff members left at all who read these forums for example...but I know, it's only the players talking here and what they say isn't important anyway.
To be brutally honest I think UtM should try running his own development project. His own level of arrogance will quickly bring the project down. Not once in a conversation that I have witnessed has he ever admitted he is wrong, and he usually resorts to calling his opponent 'noob' or other insults just because their opinion differs to his.
You speak of arrogance and still support the PS team? Sorry, it's far beyond me how anyone can call others arrogant after seeing the arrogance of the PS team for some time.
Notice how XilliX, someone who was also fired from the PlaneShift devteam, has not come on here and publicised his work and made a big show and cry. I haven't even seen a word by him against Talad here. Bitching about someone all over the other person's community board is just unprofessional and goes to show why I donate art to the people I donate to.
But you have seen a post of Utm ranting with Talad here every months? You know how Xillix will act when she is out of the team for as long as Utm? I also don't get what you mean with "person's community board". You want to tell me Talad is part of the community? When did that happen? For the PS staff to become part of this community they actually had to leave their hidden fortress and talk to the players...and also take the complains of the community serious and not just say "All the rest is just trolling and ranting". But of course my respects for your willingness to still donate anything to PS after seeing the game for some time.
And thanks for the links Lhaa...they were a funny read. The Xillix-Talad talk is well known and no reason to comment it here again (or maybe it is...I didn't often say anything positive about Xillix...was always too busy arguing with him ;) But in those logs Xillix for sure isn't the one whose bad side is shown there). But I like the one asking for 3d modellers:
As of March 2007, the game main server, laanx.fragnetics.com, has some 358,400 registered user accounts and 100,000+ characters. The game forums have approximately 23,570 registered accounts.
Let's take some more recent numbers: 482846 accounts on skylab on the 8th of may.
The first tech demo of PS was released on the 5th of february in 2002.
That makes up to today 3014 days of being able to play PS.
Taken the account numbers we have an average of 160 accounts registered on each day!
Hard to say what exactly the current average player number in game is...but should more then 20 and less than 80 I think. So no matter how you look at it, most of those accounts can't even have tried the game for a day. It gets even worse if you keep in mind that there are players playing much longer than a day. All that theses numbers says for me is that PS manages to attract people to try the game out but doesn't manage to keep any of those players in game. Most flee after a few minutes again. And yes, I am aware that a lot of those accounts are just mule accounts...but seriously, even if you have 4 accounts for mules you only have to play about 72 hours with your main char to have more time online than the average PS account.
So, I hope this was enough now to get my account deleted...but if not I am sure I can come up with more. And when you are at it...don't forget my Tinvel account. At least this one time it might be easier for all to just delete it and not have me to come up with another nice post for that account also. And last but not least a big thanks to Utm again for posting those histories here.
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\o/ it works....so, what about this account now?
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i'd like to point out there is an error no one deleted no one account both you and lhaa have put them for deletion and the forum software followed your own only orders.
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lets drop the personal attacks please. that goes for both sides.
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[..] you two beg and plead for your accounts to be deleted, then POST MOAR on other accounts. Defeats the purpose really.
My other account got deleted simply because I tried what Weltall implied, and surprisingly it worked.
I suppose with your words, Akkaido, the "Lost Dwarven Histories" are ultimately lost?
EDIT: Just to clear things up: Aiw is not me! At least this one made me laugh!
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Yeah, 0 chance of being ingame. Sadly, I will admit they're rather nice.
I think we can all agree that it's a shame when politics destroys development of a fairly good game? Have a happy ending to the thread?
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I'll not even try to judge what your reaction would be if you were suddenly told that enki were no going to be playable races, and instead were going to be basic mobs like gobbles, hunted for tails and skins, and that oja was to be replaced with crude stick huts to match. And no, your opinion on the matter, or any ideas on anything else to make the game unique and more fun are not wanted. Just shut up and make the stick huts.
1) Well, actually, Oja is being turned into mud-stick huts. And no, I'm not happy about that.
2) I'm not on the PS team, I'm a prospect, don't say "raagh raagh a PS team member did all these insults" when you know damn well I'm barely more than a contributor.
3) Provide me with a game team that lacks the politics of the PS team, and has a competent level of development already done, and I'd be happy to donate for them too. I don't [removed] if Talad profits from my work, I profit from having it on a running online game.
As I said, I'm not standing up for Talad, I contribute probably for the same reasons UtM did. There's alot more complexity to the situation than any of you are aware of, but of all things, don't paint me as a Talad-fan, even he very clearly knows who my friends are.
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The longer the replies get (especially with quotes), the less I tend to read them.
If you have a serious opinion, tell it without too much arguing. Get to the point.
Like the singer of "Faithless" once stated: "If you want people to listen to you, whisper - not shout."
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good lols in this thread :D
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VELH!!!!! Yes i know this is completely off topic--but good lord where have you been??? :)
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We have read this thread carefully, and it contains personal battles and discussions which are not related to the game and do not have any positive value to the project. For this reason the unrelated posts have been deleted, and the thread locked. Please use this forum respecting others, please avoid personal attacks and trolling and try to stick to the point.