PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nivm on May 10, 2010, 03:20:00 am
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I played this game quite some time ago, back when I didn't understand what "role-play" meant the same way a 4-year-old doesn't understand object permanency. I returned, because on this night, the physical systems of world Yliakum came to mind, and then a single paragraph, which has not changed on my return;
Waste
Ducts that have been dug out in the rock are used to dispose of human waste. Larger rubbish and bodies are simply thrown into almost vertical and apparently endless wells. Nobody seems to care about where all of this junk finally ends up, since the stalactite theory is only devised by some Xacha scientists and has not been proven yet. Dead bodies are eliminated the same way. Though discarding dead in such a callous fashion would seem rather shocking, neither of the two main faiths at Yliakum requires particular care nor reverence to dead bodies. To the people here, a body is simply a non-functional apparatus or an empty shell with no soul. However, nothing is ever thrown into the lake. The law forbids this disposal method not only out of courtesy to the Nolthrirs, but also to protect the seaweed population. Polluting the lake is one of the few crimes punished with death.
And then this part;
For the future we will focus our efforts on the reproduction of a real world with politics, economy, improving the artificial intelligence of non-player-characters controlled by the server that will bring our world to life!
I immediately had a little "rage" over this, to the point of making an account after all this time. As explanation, seeing the second part brings to mind the attitude that follows "realism before gameplay, for great realism produces gameplay", of which I personally subscribe. This feeling compounds the flaw in the first quote; you can't keep getting rid of life minerals and precious nitrates in a closed system without completely depleting the soil to the point of dust. I'd expect that such a large flaw requiring only a small, text edit would be taken care of by now, but since it hasn't, I assume there must be a reason. Where does the pocket world of Yliakum get its nutrients, minerals, and nitrates to replace the one it has lost? (And how where such ducts dug without finding out what was at the bottom? Charges?)
After reading the rules, I find they scare me; they demonstrate that this is a very slow forum, meaning one can't expect ten varied replies in the next hour, and they allow for moderators to beyond what is required.
The only other note is from a memory; I recall that in this game there are numerous invisible walls preventing one from exploring far off the beaten path, and load points were placed unevenly. Since Yliakum is such a small world, it should be quite possible to model and detail the entire thing continuously (then working terrain to allow for hidden shortcuts and dangers for straying). It should also be possible to divide the world into smaller sections, then load the nearby sections as your character nears the boundaries.
Edit: Since it has been a while since I used a forum without avatars, I find it suddenly very hard to recognize different posters.
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Welcome.
A lot of different questions in one post. ;)
a) Waste is not yet a topic which reached the level of importance to talk about realism of its implementation (there are "more importent topics" for several years still). Only few things remain really so useless that they must be removed "by the gods" (e.g. by Game Masters) - for almost everything an NPC merchant is available who you can sell off your waste to. Dead bodies are not an issue at all, as long as Dakkru rather reliably resurrects them. "True death" - if it ever happens - would only happen due to a character/account deletion. And even then, there are still the Stone Labyrinths with a connnection to the outside world behind the Bronze Doors, so Yliakum is not exactly "hermetically sealed".
b) This forum is well able to collect dozens of flame and hate and trolling replies in a brief time. Sieving out the serious ones can be more of a challenge. And board moderators are always responsible for executing the administrator[']s['] rules. My dictionary refers to it as "exercising property rights".
c) Unfortunately we are not yet rid of all invisible walls. But theoretically, background loading of the world should work (practically it is bugged up to disabling it partially - I have seen that it is in general possible to move without loading breaks between several maps, but then some parts might be missing, making you fall through holes). The underlying CrystalSpace 3D engine is as much in development as the game itself, and the game is always again adapting to engine changes.
d) "For some strange reason", avatars are reserved for development staff; but you may still use signatures (with a moderate size, please) to identify your posts.
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I'm not english native, so perhaps I don't understand some subtelties of the language.
I assume your doubt about closed systems comes from the "apparently endless wells", and as far as I know since the soil actually remains rich in life minerals and it's not depleted yet, an Yliakum scientist can propose some theories:
* the apparently endless wells are not endless after all.
* the stalactite is actually not a closed system, but part of a greater system, and there are some mechanisms that replace the substances. Water is flowing from the walls of the stalactite from external sources, and we don't know yet the composition of water. I remember I've seen a map of yliakum that supports this theory.
I find the lack of knowledge in this matter a pity, but also a good RP starting point, and stimulates the scientist in me. Too much fighters in Yliakum ;D
Boeven frowns a little, picks up a booklet from his bag, scribbles a note: "Knowledge Seekers". then put it back.
finally, I'm sure there are technical reasons to prevent the exploration of the entire level, and I leave the explanation to others, this argument was maybe previously discussed in other threads. I'll check searching the forums.
If that was not your point, then I'm sorry I didn't understand, and welcome back.
Edit:
LigH's reply was faster than mine :) thank you for the answers.
@Ligh: You think my sig is too big? actually is bigger than yours and I've searched thru the forums for infos. Ok, I'll shrink a little then : )
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Thank you. I tend to weave too many concepts together, but that's mostly because they're already woven.
Sadly, since it's been so long since I've played (I'll have to switch to the other unavailable computer to boot up PlaneShift), I can't presume to keep up a conversation on game mechanics. That part was just notes. However, I do know world building, and although there are numerous hints that the site information is fractional, I thought I could help.
When I speak of these things, I think of them in terms of "how many kg of organic matter leave Yliakum a day? How many enter?", and wish for such things to balance out, or if they don't, implement consequences. Although I don't have census information, I would expect that people would manage to drain farmland of all nutrients within five or six years, creating the "Dustbowl" effect seen in America's 1930s. Things living and dieing on a section of land are all-important for its health; if living things are leaving (all the vanished adventurers), and the dead being carted away, the land will suffer. If rivers bring silt, then those rivers need to flood or form first-level lakes to deposit much of that silt. One would expect the climate away from the main lake to be barren instead of verdant, and the seaweed supplies unable to support the population. It would be nice to get a record down of the all the common imports and exports.
I still need to go see what walls have been removed, it sounds like it's much better than it used to be. Perhaps I will now be able to charge into the field to the right when leaving Hydlaa north gate.
Are people supposed to role-play on the forums as well as the game? I've seen that "emote" text many times now.
Well, I blocked all the avatars and signatures, since they aren't even, and those random objects in place of avatars. So I have no further trouble.
No, I didn't sleep last night. I'll see what this post looks like when I read it while awake.
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Thanks Nivm for the beginning of this interesting and rich set of questions!
Since I am not a techie I can't speak to the technical issues being raised...but one random thought prompted by what you each has mentioned struck me like a bolt of {Whatever lightening is made of}...
Maybe sometime at some point someone will 'discover' that the assumptions about this imperatively closed system with mysteriously holes {that go to ...where?} and the ultimate reality of the world of Ylikum were simply...
wrong?... incomplete? In some generation, an elf or enki or kran or klyros or xacha or hammer or someone will conceptualize, like Copernicus, like Galileo, like Einstein, that Ylikum is not the center of the universe,
that the universe extends... who knows where? To Vodul and beyond?
And those in Yliakum who come to believe in this new science will be persecuted, imprisoned, executed... but the expanding universe of expanding truth will not be silenced...
After all, how can there be a crystal eclipse until something moves in between the crystal and the viewer?
What the !@#$ do we know?
Roled Rolak
Proctor
Knowledge Seekers ;D
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...{Whatever lightening is made of}...
Electricity. Also, according to Wikipedia, "It is believed to be caused by Zeus, a Greek god, in anger for Greece going bankrupt." xD
And since I have nothing on-topic to say, I'll go lurk more.
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@ Boeven:
I did not refer to your signature specifically?! - Yours was fine for me... there have been larger ones, and much more eye-catching and annoying ones than yours. No, my point d) was just a generic statement.
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As to the closed system there is actually a book in the Library in-game that explains how the system is helped by the indigenous species that live here-in, Also there is one of these 'endless' holes implemented in-game and being that it is a player accessible area it is my belief that there may be a species that lives in it similar to our goats that will eat almost anything and dispose of it. Any way Just thought that I would mention some of the answers to your question are answered in the great Hydlaa Library
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Endless hole implemented? Where?
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Nvim,
I like your figurative description of the current state of the community and I thoroughly agree. Players come in, play, die and slide out through the waste channels into an abyss. Nobody cares. They are viewed as nonfunctional apparatuses. The influx of new players is sometimes like silt or in other words, the game attracts people who are not interested in rp. There is a prevalent attitude that players will leave and new ones will just replace them and everything will be fine. Unfortunately you are quite correct in stating that doing this tends to drain the goodness out of the community. The end result is a non-fertile community in which rp either does not exist, or just dies as quickly as it starts.
At least thats my interpretation.
As I said in another post, the "playground" needs to be fixed before you can start rebuilding the community. Perhaps a very lax system with no rules for rp worked long ago, Its my opinion that some rules and consequences are needed in order to maintain the integrity of the community. Rules need to be made in order to discourage "silt" from leaking into the player base and to ensure that experienced players will still be able to enjoy the game.
Its used to be that the tutorial (unintentionally) acted as a filter. If you were not smart enough to get though the tutorial world, then you would not make it in. To get though the tutorial, one needs to be able to read, comprehend what is said, and follow simple instructions. Those who are not capable of this much should not be able to get into the rp server. Someone went ahead and made a tutorial walkthough so that even the dumbest of the dumb could make it in. Further there is a guild that exists in the tutorial world to help players in. I'm sure it was intended to help people get past simple mistakes that escaped them, but the consequence was that the filtering effect was broken. As a result there are a lot of folks with zero patience and no common sense. I guess they tend to get frustrated and leave eventually.
When good players start leaving, someone should scratch their head and say "Hmm, I wonder if there is a problem that needs to be addressed" instead of just letting them exit without notice. Once LOTS of good players start leaving all at once its too late. There is a ripple effect. Eventually players will leave because of the loss of players.
I'm glad to see that you care about rebuilding the community Nvim. For the sake of the game I hope that those who govern the game care just as much and make whatever changes are needed to make this near-dust bowl habital again. Perhaps then, the community will be reborn.
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I'm also a newbie here, and this is my first experience from many points of view, but I noticed this, please correct me if I'm wrong:
The most part of recent complains and lamentations about overall situation came from frustrated players who can't play in a way they used to be with former version of client. Minimum requirements are higher than before, the player can't cope with that and saddened leave.
then there are problems with updater, that leave another big bunch of angry players, who don't have enough experience in managing their pcs and Macs and applying necessary workarounds.
the fact is: Planeshift is a tech playable demo, so playable and enjoyable that most part of players actually forgot what that means.
as for RP, when I first arrived here I was a muted klyros who assisted at mysterious events: people stabbed in Kada-el's tavern, dueling nearly the plaza (O_O), it was... wow!
so I stayed here, fascinated by players and game mechanic.
I fear that a lot of good RPlayers gone, were not techie people.
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then there are problems with updater, that leave another big bunch of angry players, who don't have enough experience in managing their pcs and Macs and applying necessary workarounds.
the fact is: Planeshift is a tech playable demo, so playable and enjoyable that most part of players actually forgot what that means.
True, some very good players were not techies. Losing them results in further erosion of the already weak rp community, and other players leaving too a a result. Some of this could be chalked up as inexperience with computers, some if cannot. Some of it is due to hardware and driver issues.
Understand that it takes time for people to get good at role playing. Also, if there is nobody around to mentor those who do not yet know how to role play, it will take that much longer for them to learn. If the people who run guilds on the rp server don't know how to role play (or think they do but are horribly mistaken) then those who join their guilds will be delayed until they meet up with someone who role plays well.
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@Dracaeon 'endless' hole the quotations make it so as it is not true to the absolute definition, The howling well as mentioned in other posts is a burial well and player accessible.
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So people just try to role-play on the forums? Or does Roled want to teach me how it's viewed in-game so I don't mis-remember my lines?
It looks like I'll need to go in-game and find those books, all of them, before continuing...much. Could I get a mild spoiler about how much time/difficulty it will take to find all these books? Beyond finding the records/library/bookstore that is.
Might seem disgusting, but what do you mean by the creatures "dispos[ing] of it"? The matter has to go somewhere, and in some form. If biological, the preferred form is fertilizer for farming, and that stuff was collected for the purpose far back in European history all the way to...today. Yliakums would not have to deal with: biodegradless plastic; excessive, chemically treated paper, or an abundance of harmful chemicals and minerals (do you know that many computers contain lead?). They would not dump metals, for they can be re-forged when broken, and are hard to refine. They would not dump stone, for what to use for building? But I guess they would definitely dump corrupted, chaotic, or wild magic; that stuff'll kill you, and it's pain to clean up.
Truthfully, Rigwyn, that metaphor didn't come to my mind until you posted it. I know a decent amount about internet communities in general, but very little about this one, for I doubt what I've read is all-inclusive (but the rules...augh). I don't really want to get into it, but here's a few examples of forum rules; Short (http://www.infinity-universe.com/Infinity/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=75&topic=441.0), Short n' Sweet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=27009.0), Long (http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30124), Verbose (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35709.0). It's not necessarily strict, but instead unbalanced, seemingly leaving overlapping areas of encouragement and forbearance.
The Brick Wall Learning CurveIM (Internet Mark)! =D So, instead of making a tutorial that doesn't really teach you the game; make the game itself ridiculously complicated. Since you guys enjoy thoughtful realism (or Sense, since magic isn't real), it becomes really easy as the game is developed to add numerous useful controls that a practiced player loves and a newbie is confused by. Every time I've seen this happen (a control/detail flood), the trolls never reach the forums; they look at the manual and their hot little minds don't have the patience to do it, however epic it may be. So, nearly all players entering the community are of the patient kind, and this often implies nice, even if it can't guarantee it. You know, it seems like all the nice communities have some kind of filter, and that filter determines the community. Do you want a barbed fence, ring of fire, brick wall, force field, or something else entirely?
"Caring"...that's the first step, isn't it?
It will be the Phoenix; reborn from the ashes.
(Oh, and 5 hours of sleep 20 hours ago this time.)
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Truthfully, Rigwyn, that metaphor didn't come to my mind until you posted it.
What then were you talking about when talking about the waste system etc .. ? I can't imagine that you were literally talking about the waste system and the way the dead are disposed of?
The Brick Wall Learning CurveIM (Internet Mark)! =D So, instead of making a tutorial that doesn't really teach you the game; make the game itself ridiculously complicated.
No, not exactly. The tutorial should be designed to set a player up for success. I think that there is enough information in the tutorial as is. What I'm saying is if a person does not have the facilities to get though this simple tutorial then they should not be let in - the game will be too difficult for them and most likely unpleasant for both them and those who encounter them.
I used to think that anyone could be taught with enough nurture. I would have told you a year ago that it would be best to lower the bar so that everyone could be included. I see now the flaw in that sort of thinking. When you lower the bar too much you also lower the standard and people will play worse as they conform to that lower standard instead of aspiring to improve. Its better to work with the 20 percent who get thought the tutorial on their own than the 80 percent who fail. Yes, that 80% might contain a few gems, but those gems will most likely try again or ask someone for a hint.
( for those who cannot read between the lines, the numbers 80 and 20 are used figuratively. they are not real numbers. they also hint at the well known 80/20 rule )
Do you want a barbed fence, ring of fire, brick wall, force field, or something else entirely?
Ideally a filter that only lets though those with:
* Some common sense
* The ability to listen, comprehend, and follow simple instructions
* The ability and desire to role play
"Caring"...that's the first step, isn't it?
Its better to spend your time caring about those who are in the 20% group which managed to get thought the tutorial than on every single potential player. Again, of the 80% who fail to get through there will be a few good players who fell through the cracks. Its unfortunate, but its still better to focus on the minority population that succededs. Those who are good candidates and fail will probably try again.
This might sound harsh but its very natural. Nature constantly filters the weak and in-adaptable from the strong and adaptable.
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I'm sorry to say to the first; yes. I tend to mean exactly what I say, unless I make a mestake. If I was using a metaphor, I would have stated it explicitly, then added reminders halfway through and at the end. I guess I need to say it's not a metaphor explicitly too. :⌠ Sorry, I'll do better after finals are over and I start sleeping again.
Yeah, the rest of that is right. One just needs to make sure that it's not poor design or glitches that acts as the wall, which I guess is something I hinted.
I also wanted to ask, how do I access the bug tracker? I've seen it mentioned, but the manual does link it, and neither does the main site. I could be selectively blind in my searches though.
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it's in the client and the main page of this server http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray/
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Thanks, sorry for turning this into a newbie thread though. Finally have the game running and am discovering more things matter on the wiki...at least I think they matter. Testing is required.
Edit: The non-worship options seem to default strait to atheist, without allowing any middle ground, like agnostic. In a place where gods are real, wouldn't there be more diversity than five options? And options people normally wouldn't think of? Like pact based religion instead of worship based? I guess I'll have to choose atheist.
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I'm looking forward to meeting you ig Nivm!
Roled Rolak
is more naive than his typist thinks he is
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@ Nivm:
You are not the first board member who argued about the meaning and sense of "Atheism" in PlaneShift / in Yliakum. Use the search, Luke! ;)
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Well, technically "Atheism" in PlaneShift is more agnostic than atheist. The gods exist, and are gods, that's undoubtable. The question is whether they are worthy of worship or not.
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I know. The last change to the option and option description was some time ago, and it is still missing a great deal, some of which has not even been spoken of. The experienced community members understand that it's a misnomer and confuses newbies; yet it has not been corrected. To clarify the question; "why are the options so sparse when the actual religions are not?" The record should be accurate, and allow for significant morphing.
I would also like to note that the real-world version of atheism can exist in Yliakum; some people are really that stupid, deluded, or ignorant. Do the gods really search out such people and kill them, or make a personal appearance?
Who is Luke?
I have not been able to return yet.
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He was making a joke...
You know "Use the force, luke." ?
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Ah, text has no tone.
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Nivm, you sound a little nutty. Do you take happy pills ?
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Why are options so sparse which have no influence on the technical development of the character yet ... except for wasting of Character Points, and adding some text to the "Character Creation" part of the character description?
Well, rumours say that only those characters which start with "Blackflame" religion will eventually be able to enter the Blackflame temple; but there has not been any public confirmation yet that this was already implemented. Apart from that, I don't know of any consequences a choice of religion in the character creation process would have during the later playing. I even doubt that this option is saved in the database. For several years (and maybe still?!) not even the parents' names were stored in the database, although selecting them was mandatory in the custom character generation.
Not that any of this would be relevant for any character built via the quick presets. Which are - already mentioned several times - surprisingly conflict oriented for a roleplaying-supporting kind of online game. Not even one quick character preset which is not related to fighting, but to the rather intellectual or simply the boringly-normal type of character.
Yes, this game has flaws.
Yes, this game is neither complete nor correct yet.
But hey - after much more than 6 years of 3D development (and so many more since the generic idea was founded), we are not yet even at Version 0.6! We still have enough time to file off any burrs.
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But hey - after much more than 6 years of 3D development (and so many more since the generic idea was founded), we are not yet even at Version 0.6! We still have enough time to file off any burrs.
The point! ↑
Nivm, you sound a little nutty. Do you take happy pills?
I took unhappy pills about six years ago, a bit before the last time I came here, actually. The madness probably comes from the fact that I didn't have sleep during any of those posts. I have some of that now, but I can't really tell what change that will be. I still focus on details, text still has no tone, and the game still requires work from all sources.
So most of those options are deleted? Hm, well, I guess I can check. Shouldn't take too much diving, although it might require more memory than this computer has.
I realized that my character is going to be completely distraught when he learns where runes come from. It will be his personal version of "Where do babies come from?"
Edit: Subversion? I know not of it. Also, will it give me the current version of the Plane Shift source code?
Edit2: Where is the conversation on why the servers are divided in purpose? The search founding someone asking for it, but not the thread for results.
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i think there should be an undecided choice for religion. the character creation clearly says atheists are insane because gods obviously exist. if a character acknowledges that gods exist but doesn't worship any in particular, they should be classified as undecided.
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Not necessarily undecided, they could also be agnostic, choosing not to worship a god as they don't think any deserve it.
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What does it matter ?
If nobody roleplays their religion and the benefits/consequences of their choice then there might as well not be religion at all.
_- that or one unified all accepting religion that one only needs to say that they belong to?
Agnostic/athiest just means "no, I don't want to be bothered with this part of the settings"
If your character has gone agnostic or whatever then that's your character's choice. Such an unconventionial stance would pobably draw ridicule icly as the current population ( aside from defiant players ) is convinced that there are gods and that they should be worshiped.
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Well, that isn't what is says it means. Can I just jam this into the BugTracker?
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What do you want to suggest exactly: To exchange a widely known but probably slightly misunderstood term (Atheist) by a slightly more exact but hardly publicly known term (Agnostic), which has not even a real relevance yet on the game interna? Of course you could create a bug report about it; but in comparison with the more urgent problems (crashes, graphic glitches, memory wasting sound, other memory leaks, wrong textures, missing models, ...), I don't believe it would be considered in the next ... say, 3 years.
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I don't believe it would be considered in the next ... say, 3 years.
LOL ;D
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I already said what I suggest; alter the description in character creation to reflect the current views of the option, and to split the option between those who wont believe the gods exist until they see them before their eyes, and those who simply do not wish to worship the gods.
How could it take three years to finish everything currently on the bug-tracker? Perhaps eight months to a year, but not three. This in particular should take about five minutes to an hour depending on the system, and may be taken care of when whichever programmer involved gets tired of the usual problems.
What does it matter ?
Once all of the different options possible are designed and created, then effects may be added with all of them in mind.
So could someone point me to where the SVN "Subversion" information is? I am trying to get the current version's (0.5.3) source code, but the guide refuses to load, and Source Forge only offers old versions.
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Nivm, I would suggest following these paths if you wish to improve the game:
1) apply to be a part of the development team. You'll go through a period of prospecting, and you'll see just how many issues the team has to deal with in working on the game.
2) Try not to think "Just because I know a solution, it can be applied at the click of some fingers". Altering such things is actually quite a hard process.
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If the process requires more than an hour to change some text for the next update, the process needs work. Anyway, I never want to apply for being a mod, or a developer, or any of those rolls, simply because my enthusiasm will occasionally drop out from under me, or I could forget I ever came here; just like I've forgotten all of yesterday.
If the application will just get me information though, I'll do it. I still want the source-code to mess with.
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So could someone point me to where the SVN "Subversion" information is? I am trying to get the current version's (0.5.3) source code, but the guide refuses to load, and Source Forge only offers old versions.
The link on the compiling guide http://planeshift.svn.sf.net/svnroot/planeshift/trunk/docs/compiling.html (http://planeshift.svn.sf.net/svnroot/planeshift/trunk/docs/compiling.html) is to https://planeshift.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/planeshift/trunk/ (https://planeshift.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/planeshift/trunk/)
This gives the latest version of the source.
If set up as the guide says subversion will fetch the latest source code for you.
It is possible to download the source manually (not using SVN).
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Thanks!
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If the process requires more than an hour to change some text for the next update, the process needs work.
Its not just changing some text, its a settings change to the project. The arguments about it alone will go way over an hour.
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I don't really understand what you mean by that, do you know how the text is handled (haven't downloaded source yet; collecting resources) in character selection? Isn't it just set up to take some plain text as an argument for that option?
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It is a change to the set and setting of the game. It is not simply a change to some string of text.
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some text change... the last time the setting team went through the 280 quest it was quite a feat
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If your talking about player arguments, there are already many on this subject to research and pull ideas from. If wished, I could do such research like I'm working on skill atrophy.
What do you refer to with "280"?
Why does it appear as though all the manuals and guides on this site are poorly written or unupdated? It's as though the "absolutely no spoilers" attitude has subconsciously leaked into everything.
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Recently the quest and NPC dialogue system was overhauled. This meant every one of the 280 quests had to be re-syntaxed to the new script. An example of why such changes are hard.
By the way, I'd like to play with the source code too.I don't have the time or knowledge of that, so I stick to art.
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I see, well that was good then, I just guess it will take some work. 280 isn't that large compared to the really good, homebrew DnD games. Do you know what was gained by the overhaul?
Well, once I get through the current guide, I'll try and make a short and concise one for those who just want to read and edit a few things.
Edit: It turns out the IRC isn't working, or it's a client incompatibility issue.
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Not necessarily undecided, they could also be agnostic, choosing not to worship a god as they don't think any deserve it.
that's actually not what agnostic means
learn your greek, boy!
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Not necessarily undecided, they could also be agnostic, choosing not to worship a god as they don't think any deserve it.
that's actually not what agnostic means
learn your greek, boy!
Also, I believe what is described here is closer to misotheism.
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Well, agnosticism is fairly close.
The attitudes beneath agnosticism usually involve arguments such as "God commands his followers to kill people, how can he be perfect and wonderful as the Bible says?"
In other words, "God isn't a nice guy, so how can he be the good guy?" and that leads to doubts and questions leading to the halt of worship or lack of beginning therefore.
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"Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable." - A Cited Wikipedia Page. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic)
To be agnostic is to say that "God cannot be proven or disproven by experiment, thus I wont care." But I guess PS would have their own definition for this too, which also needs to go into the description.
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Well, agnosticism is fairly close.
The attitudes beneath agnosticism usually involve arguments such as "God commands his followers to kill people, how can he be perfect and wonderful as the Bible says?"
In other words, "God isn't a nice guy, so how can he be the good guy?" and that leads to doubts and questions leading to the halt of worship or lack of beginning therefore.
No, that'd be more like dystheism or misotheism. Agnosticism is "I don't know whether there is or isn't a god." Or "It can't be proven." There are even agnostic theists that adhere to a religion - their attitude is more like "Well, I don't know if God exists or not, but in case there is an afterlife, I'ma hedge my bets."
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Tbh, who really cares. If that's the case, switching Atheism to Agnosticism is NOT a good idea, as all characters in PlaneShift KNOW the gods exist. Talad himself was in the plaza showing off a pterosaur a few months ago. Xiosia comes once a OOC year to give gifts in the Secret Garden in Hydlaa.
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You see ... people hardly really know what "agnostic" really means. Most of them tho argue fiercely about it today not even knew the term at all yesterday, and had to look it up in glossars, I'd bet.
But Nivm wants to substitute the (mostly only partially understood, but at least widely known) term "Atheist" by the (not even widely known without looking into a glossar, althouth slightmy more correct) term "Agnostic".
As if we had no serious issues to solve in the meantime...
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So I did a bit of reading up on this matter, and in my opinion, Atheist is more appropriate.
Definition for Atheist: Someone who does not worship a deity.
Agnostic: Someone who isn't sure if deities exist.
So you see, Atheist is the correct term. Just because you don't worship a god doesn't mean you don't believe they exist right?
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Akaiddo, do you also have a source of your quote? I'd like to know how reliable the information is you quote here.
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atheist most commonly means a person who denies the existence of gods. akkaido only chose a relevant yet less common definition to suit his own purpose. tsk tsk typical akkaido :P
wouldn't make a difference anyway because the character creation states that atheism is also the denial of gods.
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According to the (german) Wikipedia, "Atheism" is a rather generic term with a wide range of specific meanings, covering "weak atheism" (doubts about the value of belief) to "strong atheism" (doubts about the existence of deities). "Agnosticism" would be one part of the wide range of different specific opinions, covered by the common and diverse understanding of the term "atheism".
No matter which "flavour" you decide to play with your character - from opposing the existence of "destiny" up to opposing the existence of deities - it is your choice, do it with all consequences.
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Wikipedia obviously. Reworded to suit my purposes.
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Lets not forget that this particular argument has come up before, but you can do your own search. The meaning of the terms atheist and agnostic have slightly different meanings when translated to Yliakum. Those would be the closest words that fit.
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But Nivm wants to substitute the (mostly only partially understood, but at least widely known) term "Atheist" by the (not even widely known without looking into a glossar, althouth slightmy more correct) term "Agnostic".
This is the third time I've had to tell you that is not what I want. The point of all this is that the Plane Shift definitions of these words are not the same as those in real life; the character creation and in-game text needs to reflect this and state it explicitly.
I added the quote just so we would know the real meanings to draw from, but they should have no solid bearing in Yliakum.
I'll put the other three researches on hold and read all the pages on this argument, then compile a list a people's views on the matter. We can then use that to create a precise Yliakum definition of "agnostic" and "atheist".
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I'll put the other three researches on hold and read all the pages on this argument, then compile a list a people's views on the matter. We can then use that to create a precise Yliakum definition of "agnostic" and "atheist".
Oh please don't. If you want to have this sort of level of contribution to the game, please apply to the settings team.
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"this sort of level of contribution"? Although the search has brought up many threads, every player can and should make an effort to improve the game, and this can be done simply by perfecting ideas in threads like this one. You people make it sound like work; I do this to relax.
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I do this to relax.
wow... ;)
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Nivm,
You should really get on top of the developers and tell them to make fix some of the more serious problems like: the hall of mirros effect in the laanx temple entrance ( I just can't rp with this distraction ).
Also there are the annoying delays that occur when moving from town to town.
- how can I rp having a civilized conversation with someone if we suddenly get split up mid conversatiin and my partner starts running into the wall. I'm sorry, but I just can't ignore this.
Jump on their backs and smack'em in the ass like a race horse. Make them animate the guard so that they chase and attack criminals. I just can't rp like this. Bad people walk right in front of them and they don't do anything! There must be a usable open source ai lib for this.
*sigh* I'm going to start downloading one now. Then I'll download the latest source and compile it with the crappiest compiler I can find. /me places his wrist over his head and grabs onto the wall, "oh! This will be the death of me!"
Oh! And I refuse to sleep until someone fixes the lemur models! Its 2010 and they they thill don't look as they should.
Someone will have to address this!
I'm brewing a pot of coffe now.
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Players aiding the developers in making the game...huh?
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I am severely limited in game-experience, because my time on that computer is limited. So I do not know about the glitches you speak, nor can I guess how the game is rendered or loaded; just that it is. I do know that such errors are significantly harder to address than text and settings (both options and world) mechanics.
I find it funny that many of the threads with the word "atheist" are locked.
Blender is pretty easy to use, especially for organic models. However, it is a pain to use for machines; it is very hard to keep things perfect symmetrical, even if you use all its functions.
Predit: Yeah, I thought Rigwyn was being a bit silly there, but I think it was just to mock my statement about "every player can and should make an effort to improve the game". But that's alright, because it means she did get what I said, and even took it deeper into her mind with her joke.
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I always went with 'Non-follower'. Simple definition. You don't follow any of the gods for whatever reason. Your belief or not that they exist does not enter the definition. I always thought it was silly for PS to try to make up new definitions for real world words. Only confuses the issues.
Hell, just make up a new word from one of the old languages that means "the fool who follows no god". Problem with real world definitions solved.
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Nivm, these terms are already defined.
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I can testify Talad's existence. I saw it in form of Kra some days ago. It's a powerful god, 'cause has relieved me instantly from Dakkru's curse, because I served him for a purpose.
I respect him for he deserves my respect, but I can live without being a follower, unless for a purpose. Laanx still not seen around. :D
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Oh, blast, removing it.
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You saw talad ? Was he ebon colored like it says in the settings doc ?
I suggest following xiosuia instead, while talad should be superior to xiosia, xiosia is more willing to flaunt her power.
Sounds like talad is a cheapskate if all he did for you was to short-change dakkru.
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You saw talad ? Was he ebon colored like it says in the settings doc ?
[...]
Sounds like talad is a cheapskate if all he did for you was to short-change dakkru.
no, it wasn't ebon colored, that day.
I'd say it's a practical god, more cautious in showing his power. after what it's happened to Laanx, is not to blame.