PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Azlon on June 26, 2010, 06:53:02 pm
-
First of all, I do not want a religion debate, flame war, or any other heated issue.
Could you adjust the description of atheist? I find the description completely offensive. It leave such a bad feeling after reading it.
-
Atheism in Yliakum and Atheism in the real world are different. In Yliakum, the existence of gods directly penetrates all denizen's lives. In other words, your neighbor has seen Xiosia. Anyone who rejects the Gods is likely insane.
-
Maybe a disclaimer could be placed? As a newcomer, to lore anyways, how would I know that gods do exist? They way it seems is it is knocking any atheist. Makes sense if there are gods in game.
-
Welllll you can pretty much read about it on the main website and in character creation. Then there's the whole thing about being in-game and hearing about it....as for a disclaimer, I find those a submission to "political correctness". And I really hate political correctness. Just my personal opinion about disclaimers though.
-
How many people spend time reading all the lore before jumping in game? I agree with you about politcal correctness, that is until I actually got offended by something. In the character correction the religions sound like they are all equal, that is until you read atheism and its a slap in the face. To be honest, I was just looking for the option to use less points. I thought, hey atheism! You cannot spend points on religion if you do not believe in it! BOOM, a whole paragraph insulting atheists.
-
Ah well, optimizing point use is generally discouraged as minimaxing your stats goes counter to creating a self-consistent character. If anything you should waste points wildly to ensure that you do not wind up with characteristics counter to the preconceived notion of who you wish to play.
Of course if you want to play the classic renaissance man kind of fully well rounded hero that can do everything well then you are sure to be tut-tutted by some of the existing players.
Then again if you are all about the points then why bother even reading the descriptions, certainly you are unlikely to remember them once you get into the game.
Please be certain my hyperbole is meant for comic effect and not any personal acrimony.
-
Considering how many atheists there are in this community, and you're the first one to ask it be changed because you're offended...
I think it is fine as is, or it wouldn't fit PS as a world.
-
Someone already made a thread about being offended, though. Go be offended there :P
-
Thanks guys, way to make the place feel all cozy.
Also, All I wanted was to make my character have a famous father known for his armor skills, but no amount of options would allow me to do that. I was going crazy picking cool stories about my history, until I was negative 100cp.
-
In Yliakum, the existence of gods directly penetrates all denizen's lives. In other words, your neighbor has seen Xiosia. Anyone who rejects the Gods is likely insane.
Interestingly an atheist was my first choice when in character creation until reading the description. It did not offend me; however if the suggestion made above was in the description it would have been more understandable to me.
- Nova
-
Considering how many atheists there are in this community, and you're the first one to ask it be changed because you're offended...
You mean fifth one? The definition listed in character creation still isn't the same as the accepted definition, and there are the other missing options discussed.
-
The definition of Atheism in Yliakum isn't going to be changed. :D
-
But it was explained to me that the definition that both the players and the developers used was different than the one in character creation. So why wouldn't it be changed?
-
Who explained that to you?
It might be that some AD's or prospects are ignorant of the definition, and likely that many players are as well, or simply choose to believe something different. However the definition of Atheism in character creation is the right one, as far as I'm concerned & knowledgeable about, of which I am concerned slightly and knowledgeable about much.
-
Starting here (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37321.msg425060#msg425060), was the explanation. Although it also comes from all the searching I did on the subject.
-
you mean like the horny horses. i mean rivnaks or the chicken...err...kikkiri?
-
The only people I really see playing this game are people who really want to play the game. I got a pm saying all the options do not effect any stats, and I assume that is because it is still too early in development. I honestly tried to go crazy with character creation, but the points limited me.
The definition is offensive, perhaps it is suppose to be, but a simple statement stating that characters will react negatively in game because gods do exist. Instead it is a paragraph from some religious npc.
-
i never had a problem with character creation (except bad internet). the points are there to keep you from starting out with a ridiculously powerful character. the options do affect your skills.
the definition shouldn't be offensive. gods obviously exist in yliakum, so you're either mental or live under a rock if you're an atheist.
/thread
-
Yeah there are gods/goddess's in Yliakum that make themselves prevalent at times. Anybody who denies the existence of those gods is likely insane atheists, anybody who doesn't care about the gods...I don't know what you would call them.
-
The definition could be offensive if one was prone to taking offense. But if these people want their game to contain this definition of atheism, it is their business to keep it that way if they so wish.
-
When referring to atheists, even if the character creation definition says otherwise, it should be "a person who does not revere or put their faith in gods". This could be the person who thinks they are just extremely powerful mages, was wronged by them at some point, or is just the pragmatic who doesn't prostrate themselves for anyone.
Simply because the gods actually exits, there aren't "believers" and "non-believers"; there are "worshipers" and "non-worshipers". Worshipers don't get as emotional about religion as believers do, because their sureness is not based upon faith. Instead of the preacher's message being "act this way or/and my god will (strike you down)/(reward you)!", it's "there's this being that's really awesome, follow it!"
It just works better that way.
-
When referring to atheists, even if the character creation definition says otherwise, it should be "a person who does not revere or put their faith in gods".
faith n. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence
In Yliakum you either accept the gods or you reject them. There is no need for faith. They appear.
Worshipers don't get as emotional about religion as believers do, because their sureness is not based upon faith.
I believe that someone whose religious beliefs are founded on actual fact would be more emotional and zealous about their religion than someone whose religious beliefs are grounded on a foundation of faith.
Believe in the gods or don't. Believe and you might be saved. Don't and you are screwed. Or you can believe in the Black Flame and see how that turns out.
-
Different idea, Blooded. You can put your faith in a bridge, your truck driver, or a good friend. It's putting faith into a chance, rather than putting faith into existence. I'm not sure how to make that explicit in the quote.
Think of things in real life people revere (that are real); those are far more capable of ignoring degrading speech. It's the difference between yelling angrily and murder, or the difference between informing tactfully and yelling angrily.
-
Just because the gods can appear in game doesn't mean that all characters have seen them. Some characters might distrust the words of others, or might distrust the gods directly based on them having so much apparent power. Such a gulf between regular people and gods is going to breed misunderstanding.
-
Everyone knows the Gods exist in Yliakum, the Gods actually influence events and lives. So what people do is worship a specific God in hopes that God will bless them.
Atheists are basically people who want to control their own lives and do not want the Gods to interfere with them. They choose to worship no God, which is considered eccentric or even dangerous to do, for if no God will help you, who will?
Lunatics are the people who claim the Gods don't exist.
I believe that someone whose religious beliefs are founded on actual fact would be more emotional and zealous about their religion than someone whose religious beliefs are grounded on a foundation of faith.
If only it were so. Look at real life, there's so much evidence to the contrary; Faith is so much more powerful than fact. It can drive people to the edge, and over it.
-
When referring to atheists, even if the character creation definition says otherwise, it should be "a person who does not revere or put their faith in gods".
It is my feeling that you are mistaken. An atheist is one that believes strongly in the non-existence of any god just as a believer believes the opposite. An agnostic is one who does not believe nor dis-believe and is open to either possibility. They simply do not know.
-
This is more issue of RL beliefs than IG definition. The setting is clear that nobody is crazy enough to doubt the existence of the Gods, (in the face of magic, how likely are you to doubt the existence of the Gods that provided it ;) ), but some are disenchanted enough to not worship them. Just think of the limit on non belief in the Gods like the limit on having Dragons in game. There is nothing truly barring it from happening other than settings.
-
I opened up a bug report (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray/index.php?do=details&action=addvote&task_id=4576) to take care of it completely for 4-5 years.
Suggest things to go on the character creation list and just what the descriptions should be changed to.
-
The definition is offensive, perhaps it is suppose to be, but a simple statement stating that characters will react negatively in game because gods do exist. Instead it is a paragraph from some religious npc.
How can a player be offended by a fictional religious character in a fictional religion?
Yes, PS definitions can bring confusion. Yet, for what I remember of character creation, it wasn't atheism that confused me: it was stated that atheists are insane, and I simply took it as game fact. What I found myself at odds with is that I wanted to be a polytheist, or undecided, or whatever they would call it if backed with a proper description.
It doesn't matter if PS atheists are actually insane or not, if they are right or wrong, if gods are gods or something else powerful enough to play gods, if people see only what they choose to see, etc. Settings are debatable in game, because characters don't know they are settings, they don't know what the players (think they) know. To me, the real confusion is that the distinction between belief and worship is not clearly made. In that regard, we have a definition for a rare case (disbelief), and not much for what usually makes the majority in a pantheon case, i.e., worship all loosely and let priests do the specific worships.
-
The bottom line, to address the original complaint, is that being offended by a definition of a fictitious religion is illogical. You don't see Christians for example being offended that the in game religions promote the worship of false gods, do you? Do you know why? Because it isn't real. End of story. I doubt very much that the devs will change something because a fraction of the playerbase confuse Yliakum for real life.
That may have come across offensively, be assured it's not intended.
-
owned
-
note that there've been a bug report opened about it: PS#4576 (http://hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray/index.php?do=details&task_id=4576)
if you have an improtant argument to state about it, feel free to leave a comment there as well
-
How many people spend time reading all the lore before jumping in game? I agree with you about politcal correctness, that is until I actually got offended by something.
I read everything I could find on the PlaneShift world before jumping in game (so that's at least one). I am not offended by the PS definition of atheist, it only applies to an imaginary world... ironically anyone that read the settings would have known this. Hypocrisy annoys me.
You're lucky this isn't baseball (or California criminal law) or you'd already have three strikes.
Moral of the story:
PlaneShift is a role-playing game....
1. Know the world.
2. Try to keep in-character (IC) and out of character (OOC) separate, even when it's difficult.
Hang in there, you're not the first person to get tripped up by the above... Everyone that has played PS for any amount of time has had to learn/relearn the above at one time or the other, even more than a few "veterans."
-
Hang in there, you're not the first person to get tripped up by the above... Everyone that has played PS for any amount of time has had to learn/relearn the above at one time or the other, even more than a few "veterans."
This implies that you think it should not be changed, is this correct? (Y/N)
Y: If you're going through a dark hallway, and trip on a rock, do you leave it there for the next person?
N: Glorious, how do you think it should be changed, and what do you think should be added? Put any concise suggestions on the bugtracker.
-
This implies that you think it should not be changed, is this correct? (Y/N)
Y: If you're going through a dark hallway, and trip on a rock, do you leave it there for the next person?
N: Glorious, how do you think it should be changed, and what do you think should be added? Put any concise suggestions on the bugtracker.
I'll imply it, state it, write it down and have it notarized. I think the definition is fine.
Adding some politically correct prologue to the description would be like putting a "Caution, contents may be hot" warning on cups of coffee... within the context, it should be obvious.
-
Wait...What we are describing is to actually make "atheism" in-setting. Currently the term is described with the same definition as real life when in Plane Shift that isn't what it means.
When referring to atheists, even if the character creation definition says otherwise, it should be "a person who does not revere or put their faith in gods".
And I refer to "faith that the bridge is sturdy" instead of "faith that the bridge exists". An atheist like that in real-life is almost totally unheard of in Yliakum; and this is a civilization with libraries that's going through an age of unnatural enlightenment. It's not important to just make the character creation description less offensive, it's important that it also conforms to the universe it refers to; and makes sure the newbie knows it.
This above is like vehemence but with out that implied angry or sullen feeling.
-
Currently the term is described with the same definition as real life when in Plane Shift that isn't what it means.
Ummm... no. Haven't we all consistently been saying that they are not the same? Let us clarify shall we...
Real life Atheist: Someone who does not believe in the existence of deities.
Yliakum Atheist: Someone who does not believe that the deities are worthy of worship, even though they do not doubt their existence.
This is the way it will stay. If the developers are really afraid of stepping on the odd players toes (which they're not), the only thing they could possibly do is rename the religion.
-
Atheism, from the Greek, a-theos, meaning without-god. Although PlaneShift atheists may be aware that there are individuals like Talad -- whom others claim to be gods, or claim to be gods themselves -- a PS atheist would simply doubt that they were actually gods per se, and would be preoccupied with where their power actually comes from and who they really serve. This would preclude worshiping them, of course. I have never had a problem with this interpretation. Its exactly what I would be thinking if some being who called itself Jesus floated down on a cloud and started proselytizing to the human race.
-
I think the original post stated that the player felt offended because atheists were portrayed as lunatics. Somehow the topic drifted towards faith choice of words..
It sounds to me like this is a case of not seeing the difference between one's character and one's self
-
Why aren't you people (Nivm) listening to me when I say the definition is what it is and its notta gunna change. Moving on.
-
It sounds to me like this is a case of not seeing the difference between one's character and one's self
Exactly.
I think this is more of an MMORPG learning situation than anything else. There's nothing wrong with the in-game description or the person that initially found it personally offensive... Just seems to me to be normal RP "growing pains."
-
Why aren't you people (Nivm) listening to me when I say the definition is what it is and its notta gunna change. Moving on.
Ooh ooh ooh ooh.... Can we do the Sapience verses Sentience argument next? *hops up and down*
But seriously though, Rigwyn is right. This is a bleeding over of RL into the game. Nivm is closer with his bridge theory. Not believing that the gods are gods is like not believing that the leaders of countries are leaders... Think what you want, but they are there and they do what they do. The only input the character has into that system is whether or not they worship and in turn get the benefits of worshiping.
-
I am a very proud Atheist and in the context of this game, it's not offensive. I think it is stupid to change it.
-
OK, this is a game, everything in it is fiction, fantasy, so nothing in it is related to anything in the real world.
-
OK, this is a game, everything in it is fiction, fantasy, so nothing in it is related to anything in the real world.
:o WHAT?!
-
OK, this is a game, everything in it is fiction, fantasy, so nothing in it is related to anything in the real world.
You lie.