PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: louscroo on July 13, 2010, 06:04:24 am
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Here's a bit of a rambling as I try to pull my thoughts together.
As I was reading Esorono's complaint about people spending all day at the furnace and not roleplaying, I started to think about the platinum mines, the time people would spend there, and the casual, freeform roleplay that was characteristic of the place. I also considered the ends to which people would be mining, such as funding their character's skill development or scraping up funds for their roleplays that involved money.
But one thing that came to mind and that I'm still pondering at the moment is the relationship between the difficulty of producing tria and the quantity, quality and type of roleplay that takes place in game. It seems to me that as money gets more difficult to make, the community of players can start to experience a greater contrast between grinding and roleplay. What I mean by this is that grinding has become so difficult to the point where it seems everyone who doesn't have their desired stat/skill levels or items is either:
a) Grinding their asses off,
or
b) Roleplaying with their little storytelling puppet characters.
What's the matter with this? Nothing really, except for the fact that its not really reflective of the what I thought (I could very well be wrong) was the goal of PlaneShift staff to begin with: To create and maintain a realistic and immersive roleplay experience through the medium of an MMO. While roleplay and playing the actual game are both present (and I have no doubt that both of them will remain), they seem to be gradually drifting apart from each other, in my eyes. I think what makes PlaneShift appealing as a game is that it is an MMORPG that actually encourages and maintains an IC environment. As players come, from what I've been seeing, they decide to either level and loot like mad or become roleplayers who don't really play for the game as much as for the community roleplay. At that point, what separates the PlaneShift experience from any other MMO or any roleplay chatroom?
I just think that the PlaneShift staff should be breeding players that use the game mechanics and roleplay, not just one or the other. And I think that as the game mechanics require more grind, we'll be seeing less of this type of player. At any rate, what's your opinion on the matter (if there even is one)?
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I believe in using game mechanics to support the role play of my character, and the world around me. I have no qualms with your point, and I agree as well. Your first thread that was serious, nice ;D.
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Yeah I agree with both point a and b. Didn't expect b to come out of you but it did. :lol: I think that skills should be easier to attain, but then when it was easy, people were abusing it, and not using it. If people want to grind they should only do it if it makes sense for their character to.
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Maybe the devs could cap the total levels a char can add to something more sensible. Say 500? Freeze any chars stats with anything over that.
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Ok, you just sounded really nerdy. And i don't really get what you mean. Maybe just because im dumb.
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Probably ;D
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Yeah I agree with both point a and b. Didn't expect b to come out of you but it did. :lol: I think that skills should be easier to attain, but then when it was easy, people were abusing it, and not using it. If people want to grind they should only do it if it makes sense for their character to.
I think the problem is how long it takes for a character to reach yet another level past some point. This is a misconception of how the learning process works in reality, I believe.
In reality learning advanced techniques takes about as much time as it took you to learn basic techniques in the past. If it is any different, it is either because your teacher provides you with insufficient tools/knowledge for learning new abilities or you just lost your determination for further learning. But in perfect conditions learning is not supposed to slow down, no matter what "level" you reach. If it does suddenly slow down, it is probably because your teacher is unable to provide you with any further "levels".
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That could be a good IC explanation for the problems with the mechanics of the game. I think that a character is done learning when the teacher cannot provide anymore "levels". This is when the character uses those skills to get a job using them, or begin teaching other people the ways of that skill. OOCly it is just the fact that you have spent a REALLY long time in front of a computer clicking about, though I suppose it can be explained ICly if this person does use those skills to RP. It just comes down to this at that point: Either I quit the game because I have done all the leveling up for my character, or perhaps I can roleplay, and get him/her/kra a job.
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I vote vvallace for president
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Here's a bit of a rambling as I try to pull my thoughts together.
As I was reading Esorono's complaint about people spending all day at the furnace and not roleplaying, I started to think about the platinum mines, the time people would spend there, and the casual, freeform roleplay that was characteristic of the place. I also considered the ends to which people would be mining, such as funding their character's skill development or scraping up funds for their roleplays that involved money.
But one thing that came to mind and that I'm still pondering at the moment is the relationship between the difficulty of producing tria and the quantity, quality and type of roleplay that takes place in game. It seems to me that as money gets more difficult to make, the community of players can start to experience a greater contrast between grinding and roleplay. What I mean by this is that grinding has become so difficult to the point where it seems everyone who doesn't have their desired stat/skill levels or items is either:
a) Grinding their asses off,
or
b) Roleplaying with their little storytelling puppet characters.
What's the matter with this? Nothing really, except for the fact that its not really reflective of the what I thought (I could very well be wrong) was the goal of PlaneShift staff to begin with: To create and maintain a realistic and immersive roleplay experience through the medium of an MMO. While roleplay and playing the actual game are both present (and I have no doubt that both of them will remain), they seem to be gradually drifting apart from each other, in my eyes. I think what makes PlaneShift appealing as a game is that it is an MMORPG that actually encourages and maintains an IC environment. As players come, from what I've been seeing, they decide to either level and loot like mad or become roleplayers who don't really play for the game as much as for the community roleplay. At that point, what separates the PlaneShift experience from any other MMO or any roleplay chatroom?
I just think that the PlaneShift staff should be breeding players that use the game mechanics and roleplay, not just one or the other. And I think that as the game mechanics require more grind, we'll be seeing less of this type of player. At any rate, what's your opinion on the matter (if there even is one)?
I couldn't agree more, especially as of late, with the new the combat system, and vamped-up NPC's. It used to be difficult, but very possible to take on a dlayo with weapons and win unscathed. The same for maulbies, ulbies, and the like. Making some NPC's only confrontalbe by magic really takes away from the mechanics of the game. Not to mention how long it takes to train things, and especially how expensive everything is now :P
Anyway, total agreement from me on this issue, thanks for posting Louscroo :)
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Handshakes to Caraick and Earowo.
The post is very smart and poses the right question.
Lou for president!
The answer to the question posed is simple and nothing new: implement disadvantages, at last. Every choice must lead to consequences, not just gains. Training one's character in anything, be it skills or stats, is a choice. Atm it only leads to gain and profit; introduce the other side as well. It is realistic, it is classic, it is needed.
Having blind and lame supermages, as well as dumb and unpleasant-looking superwarriors will stop unlimited PLing in the wink of an eye, it will also make people think twice before clicking another 'buy level' button.
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Handshakes to Caraick and Earowo.
The post is very smart and poses the right question.
Lou for president!
The answer to the question posed is simple and nothing new: implement disadvantages, at last. Every choice must lead to consequences, not just gains. Training one's character in anything, be it skills or stats, is a choice. Atm it only leads to gain and profit; introduce the other side as well. It is realistic, it is classic, it is needed.
Having blind and lame supermages, as well as dumb and unpleasant-looking superwarriors will stop unlimited PLing in the wink of an eye, it will also make people think twice before clicking another 'buy level' button.
The problem with that is that there is no "one-size-fits-all" in this case. Also, you completly ignore Multiple Intelligences theory here...but that's a whole 'nother can o' worms :) (also: high STR does not necessarily imply someone being utterly muscle-bound)
Maybe the stats system needs to be rethought?
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I think the real problem is just that, everybody that plays, wants to RP the strength or skill that they WANT to have. If people would Play their character, as if the character was training, Which is basically combining training and RP, instead of playing a strong character that doesnt exist, even in-game, and mabey didnt cram training as much, becuase nobody wants to train 7 days a week, it might help the delemma a little bit.
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I think the real problem is just that, everybody that plays, wants to RP the strength or skill that they WANT to have. If people would Play their character, as if the character was training, Which is basically combining training and RP, instead of playing a strong character that doesnt exist, even in-game, and mabey didnt cram training as much, becuase nobody wants to train 7 days a week, it might help the delemma a little bit.
Well said Earowo.... except the part about training 7 days a week. ;)
Some of my most enjoyable rpg table play is with lower level characters. One Game Master of mine suggested that judging by the spells he used that even Gandolf was probably only a 5th level D&D Mage. It is my belief that characters should be played as to how they are truly developed. Of could one could have the exception of the big Boss created for some RP; yet they should have big OOC ([]) announcements in their desc that that is the case and used only with that use in mind and never found in the sewers trying to work them toward the development that the player wished they may be.
- Nova
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...even Gandolf was probably only a 5th level D&D Mage.
No 5th level D&D mage could have taken on the Balrog and have a chance. Tolkien interpretation fail.
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I usually pick the characters that need to train in order to become better. That is, if I create a character on PS that I've already created in a story or something. So really, the only character I have now actually trains non-stop. Heck if I had the money and time she'd be the top level Axe-fighter XD. But even if I did use that character that was a master, I'd still be training him/her. Of course, I would have a reason to roleplay it as well. That, and I never -EVER- choose a perfect character to use or play as X3 I always write up a flaw(s) for my characters. Whether it be something as simple as... <*comes up with a quick sentence*>
"Although he demonstrated the power that he held in his hand, he quickly dropped the sword and fell to his knees. The strength that he had quickly faded, even when he wasn't finished with his battle." Flaw? Either not fit or doesn't have a lot of stamina :3 Of course, I would have to write more in order to get a better description, but I just wanted to do an example.
Or something as complicated as phobias, genetic disorders, or mental disorders.
Flaws are what make characters seem real ^^ Being perfect at everything just makes them feel fake, or they're a legend, or something that has been exaggerated in order to prove a point. Perfection makes a flawed character X3
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...even Gandolf was probably only a 5th level D&D Mage.
No 5th level D&D mage could have taken on the Balrog and have a chance. Tolkien interpretation fail.
He did not take out the Balrog but blew the bridge and caused it to fall to its death.
Or something as complicated as phobias, genetic disorders, or mental disorders.
Yeah mine has allergies and phobia of crowds, although that is mainly to explain hardware limitations. ;D
- Nova
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@ novacadian and verden:
You'd be surprised how often bridges get blown out in a war environment. :D (and it's not hard to do these days either...what Gandalf did to the Balrog could be repeated by your garden-variety strike pilot in a F-16....1 2000lb laser-guided bomb into the correct point on the bridge = bye-bye bridge :)
@ Trikitiger:
Also, sometimes weaknesses can hide out in places where very few have the initiative to look...;) (Kaerli is often seen as "too powerful" or "invincible", but she's actually not; it's just that people seem too blinded/dumb/<I don't know what else to call it!> to actually figure out how to beat her lol)
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You'd be surprised how often bridges get blown out in a war environment. :D (and it's not hard to do these days either...what Gandalf did to the Balrog could be repeated by your garden-variety strike pilot in a F-16....1 2000lb laser-guided bomb into the correct point on the bridge = bye-bye bridge :)
What does that have to do with the capabilities of a 5th level D&D Wizard?
He did not take out the Balrog but blew the bridge and caused it to fall to its death.
Right. The fall killed the Balrog. Have you even read the story?
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Right. The fall killed the Balrog. Have you even read the story?
Yes, once on my own when younger and again to my daughter when she was young.
- Nova
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Then re-read it. Its not the fall that kills the Balrog. They fought for days after the fall.
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Then re-read it. Its not the fall that kills the Balrog. They fought for days after the fall.
Yes but the Gandolf the White was a different fellow altogether level-wise. He looked the same yet was a transformed character. We are not talking about the same 5th level mage which the hobbits knew fondly as Gandalf the Grey.
- Nova
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Your point was that the fall from the bridge killed the Balrog. Incorrect. And the original post as been editing, so who knows what we were talking about.
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Your point was that the fall from the bridge killed the Balrog. Incorrect. And the original post as been editing, so who knows what we were talking about.
My point was that Galdolf the Gray was a 5th level mage due to the spells he used. My apologies for not clarifying between the two to cause this digression.
- Nova
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My point remains the same. Gandalf the Grey fought down the Balrog. 5th level D&D wizards do not take out Balrogs.
Neither Gandalf nor the Balrog was killed by the fall into the deep subterranean lake under Moria. Gandalf pursued the Balrog for eight days until they climbed to the peak of Zirakzigil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandalf
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5th level D&D wizards do not take out Balrogs.
Agreed. My interpretation was that Gandolf (the Gray) was transformed by the fall. The movie gave him a Balrog cushion landing, if memory serves, and as my daughter is 17 years older since reading her LOTR; so you can correct me if that point was also detailed in the original writings or was a screenwriters' deviation.
- Nova
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back on topic please?
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back on topic please?
Gladly!
- Nova
Venorel rolls her eyes
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I guess ill try to get this back on topic, though I do like Gandolf ::). What I usually see especially now, while making this post is people with their characters just standing around not role playing or grinding. Just staring at each other ::|, some how it wants to make my character run around and pull Enkidukais tails just to get reactions ;D. Though am I the only one who is that bored, listening to crickets chirping (if there are crickets in planeshift :-\) ???. Anyhow I just needed to get that off my chest, hopefully this is in the right thread. :sweatdrop: :whistling:
BelldandyGeisha
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Anyhow I just needed to get that off my chest, hopefully this is in the right thread. :sweatdrop: :whistling:
That is one of my pet peeves (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37853.0") as well, Belldandy. What you are witnessing is, likely, the vile mind meld majic. PS' equivalent to the modern day cell phone.
- Nova
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What I usually see especially now, while making this post is people with their characters just standing around not role playing or grinding. Just staring at each other ::|
That sucks...
Try talking to one of them. RP bumping into them, or something. If they don't react and everyone is doing this then its time to log out and find a better game. If you roleplay fairly well or at least average then send me a PM and I'll point you to some other free RP games.
eh .. ps - You will need to spam the forum until your post count is up to 10 or 15 before you can send a pm.
Silly rule if you ask me.
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I've always built my role playing around my characters stats, why role play a fight when your character is adept in certain skills? The two should Co-Exist, putting that work into a character would make RP more rewarding wouldn't it? >o)
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The two should Co-Exist, putting that work into a character would make RP more rewarding wouldn't it? >o)
We are in agreement, yet many players which pre-date much of the present day game mechanics pine for the days when glory could be had without the pain.
- Nova
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It depends on how you define the word.
...Glory... ::)
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I've always built my role playing around my characters stats, why role play a fight when your character is adept in certain skills?
Good attitude, I always disliked chars being played skilled while in fact that char was never trained.
But I had numerous RPed fights respecting the skill levels, and such always outperformed dueling regarding storytelling and coloring a fight in a narrative way. While a duel lasted for a few seconds and was forgotten within the same time, a respectfully RPed fight I kept precious in my memory.
And from my own experience, a death from RPed fights was taken more serious into account, while deaths from duels were overcome by merely exiting the DR since thats consequently playing according to mechanics, and the killer faced his victim already short time after.
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You make good points Phage. A real compromise would be a third option to the PvP configuration which would allow the contestants to progress through the battle one strike at a time in alternate turns. A swing would be made and then the next player could wait until they were ready to continue with their swing and then back to the other. They may decide to make a description of how the blow affected them, or some comment to the other character, etc..
In this way one would get the full impact of game mechanics yet allow the experience to be slowed down to the speed of the players' desired.RP You could then have all the detail given in RP combat (which is no question a cool part of it) yet rely on the game mechanics to decide true outcome.
- Nova
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Interesting topic. I agree with the points Lou made way back when in the OP.
I play two main characters, and a small slew of others. One of my mains is a grinding character. She is a crazy, axe-wielding, Dark Way using nutjob. I RP with her often, and I grind on her a lot. Right now, I play her as having a fairly decent DW skill, while in fact, she's got a pathetic level. I don't have time to train it up along with everything else, but it is entirely IC for her to spend hours training. She doesn't like people. She avoids them, and would rather spend all her time killing things. I do a lot of duelling, and some PvP incidents like muggings and the like. If someone wants to RP a fight, I'm fine with that. If they want to PvP it, I still have a few options. If it's a newbie player, I don't have to use my q300 axes on them. I can fight with blunter axes [not telling them of course] to level things out a bit. I can use crappy armor, or take them on without armor atall. It's all about being able to work game mechanics into RP. And it should never be about winning all the time. I personally find PvP more fun than a dice roll, but honestly, I like RP fighting the best.
I will never forget the first encounter I had with Marsuveus, where it said he was "intelligent as a stone and frail and feeble." Tesh still walked away from that fight with a gaping wound in her side that required half an emu's worth of gauze to patch up. It's all about give and take, and making it fun for everyone.
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She doesn't like people. She avoids them, and would rather spend all her time killing things.
And giving small jobs to off the well lit path tri souled Klyros ;D
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You make good points Phage. A real compromise would be a third option to the PvP configuration which would allow the contestants to progress through the battle one strike at a time in alternate turns. A swing would be made and then the next player could wait until they were ready to continue with their swing and then back to the other. They may decide to make a description of how the blow affected them, or some comment to the other character, etc..
In this way one would get the full impact of game mechanics yet allow the experience to be slowed down to the speed of the players' desired.RP You could then have all the detail given in RP combat (which is no question a cool part of it) yet rely on the game mechanics to decide true outcome.
- Nova
You're thinking of something similar to older Final Fantasy or Heroes of Might & Magic style of combat? Could make things interesting... Also agree to make it a 3rd choice instead of switching it with the options already available.
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You're thinking of something similar to older Final Fantasy or Heroes of Might & Magic style of combat?
Not familiar with either of the above.
- Nova
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Not familiar with either of the above.
- Nova
Turn-based combat, basically. A quick youtube-search will show you, although they use more creatures at once. But if this were to get implemented down the line, I would imagine group combat looking similar to it. Or if one of the duellers uses summoned creatures :sorcerer: