PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Earowo on August 14, 2010, 08:47:07 am
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SO.
we all know, that the monsters have gotten stronger, things like ulbers, trepors, gladiators, and the such, the things we USED to be able to enjoy killing, BUT, i just realized the solution to the problem.
Most high-ish skilled people in a combat, be it sword axe ect. CAN damage onyx daggers dlayos,, ulbers and whatnot, but end up getting kill in a hit or two.
This post is to encourage the devs to focus more on body development for player use., Obviously it WORKS, its just not trainable, monsters have body dev, and they have higher HP becuase of it. vvallace was even able to figure out 1 lv in body dev gives 8 hp, thats his theory.
so why isnt it trainable to the public? i heard devs talking about spells realm 8 or so that can do 2000 damage, so we would need more health ANYWAY, now i dont know much about development, but i know since it works already, making it player trainable is the only thing left for it, so im just hoping it will get to work on soon, cus once thats implemented, people would stand more of a chance against the demonly ppowerful monsters and things.
-Thanks
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there's no such thing as realm 8 spells planned :P
anyway, the reason you cannot train it, yet, is because there's no suggestion *how* it should be trained - i.e. how would you get practice points.
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Well ... stats requiring purely theoretical training is just as paradox. ;) - Why don't we practice endurance while running for quests? Why don't we practice agility while dodging attacks? Why don't we practice strength while crafting or fighting? How is a Strength trainer able to build up muscles just by getting paid (for steroids?)? ... Sorry, I'm getting off-topic. Body Development is a completely different case, of course.
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One of the most convenient solutions might be to grant partial practice of Body Development too while doing any kind of crafting or resource production which is related to physical efforts, like hammering, mining or harvesting. Even when the main training was not successful (because the physical efforts were done regardless of the success of the resource production).
If practicing two skills at the same time is impossible with the current structure of PlaneShift, then you might need to create a training hall (a Dojo) and practice "using" training utilities (either by finding any useful meaning of the - for years prepared but never seen working - "/use" command, or by adding another kind of zone based activity command in the group of "/dig", "/harvest", "/fish" - like "/workout").
I guess that Body Development will have a rather high practice/theory quotient, similar to Musical Instrument? ... Hmm, not at all, it's rather average.
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right... that's the plan. however the engine doesn't fully support that kind of training, yet.
e.g. you cannot award stat practice during work or while running. I recently started adding such support, but it *will* take some time for sure, as a lot of code has to be refactored to the script engine - i.e. hardcoding has to be removed
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I don't want this solution.
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I don't want this solution.
I think by "we" Earowo meant people that play Planeshift, Geoni.
LigH:
Why don't we practice endurance while running for quests?
Simple running won't improve your endurance in any considerable manner. It'll only keep you fit. When training your endurance you need to push yourself to your limit (usually by setting an ambitious yet achievable distance before you start running), which means after reaching the finish line, you'll need a really long rest to even walk + a day or two of muscle regeneration to go back to running. Not really an efficient way to run errands.
Why don't we practice agility while dodging attacks?
Agility training requires a really, really good warm-up and some caution. Even after a good warm-up one bad move can strain your muscles. You won't be doing warm-ups before every single encounter and you won't be that cautious during these either. So in such situation, if you attempt to do something your body isn't perfectly used to, that is very likely to end up not-so-well.
Why don't we practice strength while crafting or fighting?
Building strength works this way: You warm-up, then you give your muscles intense training, damaging them in the process. Then you give them 2-5 days (depending on how intense the training was) to regenerate. In the process of regeneration they become stronger. After regeneration you repeat the cycle. The workout needs to push you to the limits. Neither crafting nor fighting allows such situation.
Anyway, I believe Body Development should be trained by receiving damage.
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Wonderful - you managed to answer all rhetorical questions (those who don't expect an answer)... :P
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A solution we all SHOULD want, including Earowo, is a game that is not boring because everyone can kill everything after training for a week. Unfortunately that is not easy to do. Before all npcs were to weak. They were made stronger. MOre balancing will surely be done. Creating a button 'press this and you can kill everything again' is not the solution.
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LigH, I'm not answering. I'm making counter-statement.
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I don't think it is the body development thing that needs fixing. I think we should be able to kill a Dlayo Gladiator or a maulber (Last time I was in PS i was unable to hurt one, that need fixing i think.) or whatnot by skill and not just go to bloody mode then wait and stand there for you, or it, to be killed. There should be some movement involved like dueling, only if you try to duel- fight a monster, they always win because of their auto-attack, that is the feature i think should be fixed. Not everyone should be able to kill a maulber [cooks farmer etc.] But fast enkis, bandits etc. who have low level swords, but since they are fast, they should still be able to take down a maulbernaut.
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From the point of view of a character that is well trained in combat, those mentioned enemies are not that impossible to defeat - thanks to the NPC armor stats revised a few weeks ago.
Yes, you can duel dlayos and its actually fun to do so (-notice stances have a higher impact and their defense values are very low, so try a defensive stance and see.) As I explained in detail on flyspray, I see the problem in the other direction. Although we have some very nice new set of rules for the magic system, it is still far off balance in PvM, and this is the only reason why physical combat against mobs seems so much underpowered. By the way, thousands of HP from body development sounds like a big nogo for PvP.
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there's no such thing as realm 8 spells planned :P
well i dont remmeber what realm they said, but one of the Few times i've actually been on irc one of the devs said somthing bout some realm spell doing thousnads of damamge.
anyway, the reason you cannot train it, yet, is because there's no suggestion *how* it should be trained - i.e. how would you get practice points.
And there is always the expresion, what doesnt kill you, makes you stronger.
my idea of training body development is just taking damage, without dieing :) since all it does is raise health, spend health to gain health yes?
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That makes sense. If you can train armour just by taking damage when wearing that armour, you should be able to train your body just by taking damage. Or if you can account for walking around, it could be also another way.
I don't think any one character should be able to kill a maulber. You've seen the size of that thing?
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Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the Maulbernaut.
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Making the game harder for oldbies will make it a lot harder for newbies. I have been told there are levels like 190+ in red way because there was once a bug (or something like that). The final solution isn't making monsters harder to kill, but expanding the maps and making more powerful creatures there. I know it will require some time, but it's impossible to start the game just killing rats when others (like me) had the option of killing 6 PP rogues with very good loot in Ojaveda not so long ago.
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not that true, my little newcomer I'm taking care of just got 300PP from killing a monster with low stats (weapon and armor <10, stats ~100), it's more about being guided properly ;)
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Phew.
Bind stats training to stamina exhaustion. Mental for mental stats and so on. The more often one depletes and regains one's stamina, the more practice points in any of the three theory-trained relevant stats one gets. Gaining practice points in Charisma while mining ore would be exactly as believable as persuading more ore to come out with one's charisma, and that's what we have now.
Ligh, two skills can be trained at the same time. Blacksmith and weapon crafting, for example.
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Gaining practice points in Charisma while mining ore would be exactly as believable as persuading more ore to come out with one's charisma, and that's what we have now.
where did you get that from? your mental stats don't influence your mining odds at all and the too fast mental stamina depleting during mining is fixed ;)
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Currently stats don't need practicing. Not realistic, but the way PlaneShift always worked - at least since I started playing (v 0.3.012).
The depletion of the physical or mental stamina is not related to their training, it is only a limit of activities.
Physical stamina are surely more related to endurance and probably strength, but less to agility. Health points are related to the same stats but have a different equation.
Mental stamina are surely more related to will and possibly intelligence, but less to charisma. Mana points are related to the same stats but have a different equation.
The more physical stamina you got by buying related physical stats training, the longer you can be physically active without exhausting. (With the almost paradox result that a cozy walk is even recreating - from a certain level set of physical stats on you can walk eternally.)
The more mental stamina you got by buying related mental stats training, the longer you can be mentally active without -- don't know; some developer told me that "getting bored" would not be the perfect explanation, but I can't imagine of any better. Possibly the "getting bored" idea was based just on that fixed "too fast draining while mining", although mining doesn't really require mental activities - in contrast to casting spells.
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Gaining practice points in Charisma while mining ore would be exactly as believable as persuading more ore to come out with one's charisma, and that's what we have now.
where did you get that from? your mental stats don't influence your mining odds at all and the too fast mental stamina depleting during mining is fixed ;)
Rly, it's not the first time I have that eerie feeling of 'normal players' and devs&testers playing 2 completely different Planeshifts.
Less mental stamina -> harder and slower to dig (more rest periods) -> less ore.
And please, guys, don't even try to persuade me one can dig normally with charisma under 100. You see, I tried that.
Calling mental stamina depletion when mining 'fixed' exactly when we have a corresponding bug rampant (mine doesn't drain at all, just quivers a bit) is good for a good laugh. Actually, a very pleasant bug. Fix the mugs instead, please? ;D
Stats must be trained, not bought, if making a believable and consistent world is still the goal.
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the mental stamina depleting during mining was a bug that was fixed last week.
there was a typo in a formula, so it should be perfectly possible to mine without any notable mental stats now (which does work - at least on ezpc I already tried it and it works as expected now). not sure whether zeroping was already restarted since the fix, if not - just be a bit more patient ;)
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Just a tiny note from me.
Increasing strength should actually decrease your overall stamina. Stronger people usually get tired faster because body tissue (muscles in particular) requires a lot of oxygen to work properly.
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"Exaggerating realism"? ;) - It is a game.
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True enough.
But I believe it was said even in this thread that Planeshift needs more balance. PS doesn't use the class system, because apparently confining characters in pre-defined boxes isn't realistic. But if you want realistic, then be realistic. Realistically a beefed up character won't jump around like a ballerina and a seasoned warrior will no longer be as flexible as a rookie.
If you ignore that, the system will only promote Mary Sue characters.
And if you don't want realism, then go for class system - it is simpler, allows more advanced gameplay options and is easier to balance.
"Let's be realistic only when it is convenient" is a funny option in my opinion.
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So you believe that there should be rather a "maximum sum of stats" (simplified) than maximum individual stats, so each character needs to decide which stats are more important?
Probably not a bad concept. Just ... "we always did it so", you know? ;)
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A trade-off between stats or skills does not necessarily require rigid limits, it can also be introduced by antagonistic effects, LigH. And is that not exactly what Draklar implied, physical stamina rates as a trade-off between endurance and strength? Still, anything related to limitations and practice for stat development makes me think of this concept (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37524.0).
Back on topic and the observation that some mobs deal tremendous amounts of damage, notice that trainable (medium and light) armor ranks are still restrictive and that full sets of crafted armor may have a much bigger impact than additional health from body development. Let us just see how things will evolve.
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Ok I may of only read the first few posts, but this is soooo stupid! Stop with having so many things you level in, How about just making one way and that is it. Instead of having Body Development, Strength, Agility, Endurance, Will to increase your health, how about just having 1 or 2 that does them all? its confusing and stupid.
I was thinking about making up a post to redo the whole stats, changing Combat and some jobs. Jobs having Blade Making (Everything with a blade e.g Axe, Swords, Daggers) and Weapon Making (Maces, Morning Stars, and Polearm) , Armor Making (does Chain Mail and Plate armor, Shields, Helms) Then also having Blade, Heavy Weapons, Archery/Range, Heavy Armor, Medium Armor, and Light Armor, no Shield Handling that will come under the type of shields (Like with Helms) armor it is.
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I don't agree with the jobs thing, but I do agree with the simplification of the stats. Blade smithing sounds better than having to learn all those different types of things and endurance should contain body development. These 1000 stats with 1000 ranks are ridiculous and demotivate many good, interesting, beautiful people from actually giving grinding a try.
But fortunately, my wise friend, we're not calling the shots... What a mess that would be: there are some people with good ideas out there, but 80% is just pure crap.
And Ligh when I was referring to the size of the Maulber I was just trying to say that there should be monsters that can't be killed by any single adventurer. Let some big, mean looking monsters actually be big and mean. Else the worst monsters will be the players themselves. And that sounds ugly.
Also Draklar wasn't asking for any exaggerated realism... Exaggerated in this context means it's just not possible to do, or that it will decrease fun or some other objective of the game. I don't think incoherence is an aspect of this game and Draklar's suggestion would simply decrease it in order to give this game more realism and balance. It may be hard to accomplish system-wise though and that'd be a good excuse not to consider it a priority.
You're always dropping excuses everywhere I look Ligh... Stop resisting and join us. It's better to be on the side that points the finger. We have lemons to give. What do the devs give you?
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And Ligh when I was referring to the size of the Maulber I was just trying to say that there should be monsters that can't be killed by any single adventurer. Let some big, mean looking monsters actually be big and mean. Else the worst monsters will be the players themselves. And that sounds ugly.
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Not in a toe-to-toe engagement, that is, Sangwa. It's certainly possible to beat one singlehandedly though...hint: think standoff and tactics.
Hint 2: this is actually rather similar to an infantryman IRL engaging a tank.
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Sangwa ... I always expected you to be intelligent enough to discover irony, parody, satire etc. ;) - And a quote of Yoda from Star Wars.
Anyway - I already use to raise fingers, sometimes to point, sometimes to get attention. (Or to mention that my "H" is upper case). I am not sure how lemons should help me there. Life is already enough lemon. In my opinion, it is not yet urgent to throw myself out of any window, there is plenty time for that.
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I've told you before there are no intelligent people within PlaneShift. I'm here, right?
Lemons can do the world for you. They can be used in everything, from electricity to lemonade. Also, if you get enough into a crate, they can save you from a third or fourth storey fall. So you can even feel like throwing yourself out of a window, if you have enough lemons around. So why not join us?
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Ok I may of only read the first few posts, but this is soooo stupid! Stop with having so many things you level in, How about just making one way and that is it. Instead of having Body Development, Strength, Agility, Endurance, Will to increase your health, how about just having 1 or 2 that does them all? its confusing and stupid.
Its not confusing or stupid, if you actually take the time to think about it,
Its realistic, When a person gets stronger, they are more resistant to damage, things dont hurt them as much, which for a game, implies more health,
when a person has agility, that means their more speedy, can dodge things, which would help things go from direct blows, to end up being just knicks and cuts, since this game, has a system where you get hit on the head, foot, torso, arm ect. it doesnt say you get hit barely, that implies agility as giving more health
Endurance, its having more stamina, which means you can fight longer and harder, also implies health
Body dev, well like i said, what doesnt kill you makes you stronger, as before i think it should be trained by taking damage, and if you ever noticed, if you get hit a lot, in a single spot of your body, that spot grows resistent to pain, like me, i got shots, on my arm for about 4-5 years, also got hit there a lot by family >.> and now my arm doesnt feel pain really...
To tell the truth Willpower should give health as well, becuase in life, willpower, when sombody gets knocked down, they are weak, not much hope left for the fight, willpower has the person stand back up, and fight for longer, which could imply health in-game
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I also think intelligence should add health. Because when you are smart you'll find ways to protect your weak points, rather than exposing them, and so you'll end up resisting more.
Charisma can work too. If you're really beautiful people will hit less hard, because they'll feel it's wrong to mess up such fashionable features.
Hey, this excuse thing is fun. :D
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what doesnt kill you makes you stronger
That one has to be one of the wrongest clichés of all times. :detective:
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*what doesn't kill you makes you stronger if you are strong enough to begin with
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*what doesn't kill you makes you stronger if you are strong enough to begin with
A rolling stone gathers no moss.
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*what doesn't kill you makes you stronger if you are strong enough to begin with
A rolling stone gathers no moss.
A stone cant grow moss unless there is dirt on it.
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I'd argue what doesn't kill you leaves you crippled in a bed unable to do anything.
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in plainshift, if you are damaged enough to wear you are crippled, you had best kill youself so as you are repaired.