PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Akkaido Kivikar on September 13, 2010, 08:11:40 am
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If you wish to play on a roleplay server, you're in the wrong place. Players even get banned for roleplaying.
mod's note: originally split from http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37965.0
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The Ten Nine Commandments of Planeshift
1. Thou shalt not duel lest ye be damned to ezpc
2. Thou shalt not role play well lest ye be branded a roleplay nazi
3. Thou shalt not know thy settings. Your memory was erased long ago cause we didnt bother to complete the background stories.
4. Thou shalt ressurect from death within minutes and act as if nothing hath happened.
5. Thou shalt not speaketh oocly in main without square brackets
6. Thou shalt not use square brackes in main at all when a gm is watching lest you be banned
7. Thou shalt not carry a farming tool into thy city if it could be loosely interpeted as a weapon
8. Thou shalt not talketh about false games in thy forum
9. If ye seeth a problem with thy commandments then just ignore it. These commandments are in pre-alpha.
Thou art subject to thy rules and regulations which may change at random without warning or notification. Though are expected to just magically know when they change.
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@ Akaiddo:
That requires an explanation...
I might misunderstand the target of your assertion; but emptying guildhouses without consent - for example - is no kind of "roleplaying" we should encourage. There are differences between IC and OOC misbehaviour.
If you meant another example, point me there.
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@ Sillamon:
You forgot the <Sarkasm Mark>...
We all are humans and make mistakes. Unfortunately, too few are able to accept that, to confess their mistakes, to excuse for them, to change their minds... Instead some seem to even consider to ruin the fun of everyone with another opinion, just go get proven right.
Among those who complain the loudest today are some of those who tried to become exceptional. Even in ruthless ways. Zero tolerance for other opinions.
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Okay, I get it...even if I try to help it will only lead to arguments. I will leave it to Maisant and Earowo then to help the new players. Then they can also push their views about reading being bad in the process and continue ranting about elitism of others.
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LigH: He didn't empty "guildhouses" that's a plural. He emptied one guildhouse, which was left open for an entire week. Thieves do that. He also did it on his evil alt. Upon being caught in a different guildhouse, he roleplayed a chase through Hydlaa.
The GMs involved weren't even open to the idea that he had taken his roleplay a bit out of hand, it was decided from the start, without any discussion with him, that he was suddenly an OOC griefer and must be purged from the community. For a roleplay. Sure, not the neatest and most well-conceptualised and planned roleplay, but it was an IC action nonetheless, and he was banned on all accounts.
And so, I have moved from the group supporting PlaneShift's GMs and devs, to the one saying that PlaneShift is not a roleplay game anymore, and should change it's website advertising to reflect this.
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There were three guild houses that were pretty much emptied of items. In one of those houses the vast majority of items taken had little monetary value ( common plants and herbs, cooked food etc). But in that same house several personal books were taken that couldn't be replaced given the new book system. Sorry but taking personal books ( like one character had 6 volumes of their personal journal taken) just screams griefing to me. We have banned players for causing less total amount of grief in the past so in this case given the number of people who suffered grief I think the penalty is well deserved.
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And through this amazing thing called ROLEPLAY, the stolen journals could have been returned.
It's pathetic and stupid to decide that when someone leaves their house unlocked, and their stuff gets stolen, that whoever robbed the place should be lynched. And anyone of the same star sign as him.
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There were three guild houses that were pretty much emptied of items. In one of those houses the vast majority of items taken had little monetary value ( common plants and herbs, cooked food etc). But in that same house several personal books were taken that couldn't be replaced given the new book system. Sorry but taking personal books ( like one character had 6 volumes of their personal journal taken) just screams griefing to me. We have banned players for causing less total amount of grief in the past so in this case given the number of people who suffered grief I think the penalty is well deserved.
how is that griefing? i don't get it
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Because the people who lost their items, rather than roleplaying that they had lost their items and working IC to get them back, decided to OOCly complain and whinge to the GMs to find and ban the robber OOCly.
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@ Akaiddo:
What you don't seem to understand is:
The *character* (IC) may be a thief, looking for open doors, stealing on opportunity. That much could be roleplay.
But the *player* (OOC) is part of the community. A player who allows his chars to steal property without being social to the other players by warning them about their open door and a possible / planned loss of property is an associal bnehaviour of the *player* - and that is not at all related to roleplaying, that is the real-life character of the player.
And if I can't trust the player, how can I trust his characters in the future? The lack of players in Ojaveda might be annoying for the Enki Alliance - but that one was a suicide move for Kore Irka Clan.
I would prefer a lot to be "roleplay-robbed" e.g. by any Outlaw or Cutthroat - or what Kull currently does in the Tower of Knowledge - in a clearly roleplayed style over being robbed in my absence without any interaction between the characters. This is a roleplaying game. It has to stay a game. Good or bad luck have to stay roleplayed. Making them persistent moves them out of the game into real-life.
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but that one was a suicide move for Kore Irka Clan.
I'd long thrown in the towel there. People in PlaneShift don't role-play, there was nowhere near enough people interested in KIC or the Enki Alliance because they'd rather not role-play on a role-playing server.
The grade of role-play on PlaneShift's "role-play" server now matches the grade of role-play on WoW's official "roleplay" servers. A few talented individuals here and there, but overall, it's sh--.
No exploits were abused, the reason such an action was possible rests solely with the guilds who were robbed. And everyone thinks "Oh my God! We'll never see these items again!" which is also a load of bull. The character who stole them was a throwaway alt. Vakachehk had no problem with that character being brought to an untimely demise and in the process handing back the items. He didn't intend to keep the items for his own OOC benefit. He had no OOC use for those personal journals Sarva mentions as the source of so much "grief"...
Also, before a thief robs the house you left unlocked, he doesn't send you a quick cellphone text message saying "[Hey dude, your house is unlocked. Okay if I rob it? I'll give it all back later.]"
The fact is, the guilds involved (except one) don't give two flying sh--s about role-play. But they happily take up space on a role-playing server. And GMs back them over role-players. So PlaneShift isn't what it claims to be.
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you are heavily :offtopic: and now I understand much better the reason why the gameplay is stalling. the dude probably is running away, playing something less complicated. He didn't knew that a working client implies a knowledge of the dynamics between angry players.
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Didn't this thread serve a purpose then? It help a poor soul to safe him/herself a lot of troubles.
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Let's examine the claims of RP in the case of the house thefts. To justify the house thefts as RP the claim was made that the thief was hired by someone in Oja to make people feel less safe in Hydlaa so that they would want to come visit Oja more. So after almost a month in RL what actions were taken by the thief to support this claim and make any kind ofRP out of this? Were any posters posted in Hydlaa talking about the house thefts anything to the affect talking about how dangerous Hydlaa has become? No not that I know of and none that the thief could point out. Any IC conversations between characters talking about the house thefts and talking about how much safer other cities are? Again none that I know of and none claimed by the thief. In short after almost a month since the first robbery can you point to a single act done by the thief to forward this so called RP other than to continue robbing houses? I know the thief was looking for a 4th house to rob since I followed him checking every GH door in Hydlaa and Gug as the first thing that happened after that character logged in.
One of the things I learned when I first started playing this game is that it is bad form to force your RP onto others. You should invite others into your RP if you have something you want to do that will have major affect on another player. I would say stealing items of great value ( be they of real value or just personal value) is something that has a major affect on lots of players. In this case it seems this so called RP was forced on a lot of people with no invitation
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Forcing actions upon other players in roleplay has always been verboten in PS. It would have been proper to inform the players concerned through OOC tell, to see if they wished to participate in your roleplay or not. Or to simply allow them to roll against you for the chance of discovering the guild house open. Using the guise of roleplay to simply abuse an OOC mechanism is not well thought out. To then use the completely expected and logical response to this to then take a political activist position regarding the advertising of the PS project, is a reach. They can call this project anything they want to, there is no contract, implied or actual that exists between the developers of a private game and the players, outside of the actual terms of the EULA for the software.
To be honest, the behavior of the "roleplayers" and the proportionality of their replies of the last couple of months, and actions concerning the state of roleplay in PS, don't make them look very good at all. I understand the development team's position on this: the roleplayers blew it in PS.
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Total newbie here looking to get into the RP server. Tried changing the IP in the server xml like I read on here but i can't save it? Denied. Any advice?
When i look at the first post in this thread i'm a bit surprised how this thread developed. On the other hand, maybe i'm not...
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Let's examine the claims of RP in the case of the house thefts. To justify the house thefts as RP the claim was made that the thief was hired by someone in Oja to make people feel less safe in Hydlaa so that they would want to come visit Oja more. So after almost a month in RL what actions were taken by the thief to support this claim and make any kind ofRP out of this? Were any posters posted in Hydlaa talking about the house thefts anything to the affect talking about how dangerous Hydlaa has become? No not that I know of and none that the thief could point out. Any IC conversations between characters talking about the house thefts and talking about how much safer other cities are? Again none that I know of and none claimed by the thief. In short after almost a month since the first robbery can you point to a single act done by the thief to forward this so called RP other than to continue robbing houses? I know the thief was looking for a 4th house to rob since I followed him checking every GH door in Hydlaa and Gug as the first thing that happened after that character logged in.
One of the things I learned when I first started playing this game is that it is bad form to force your RP onto others. You should invite others into your RP if you have something you want to do that will have major affect on another player. I would say stealing items of great value ( be they of real value or just personal value) is something that has a major affect on lots of players. In this case it seems this so called RP was forced on a lot of people with no invitation
1) If you leave a house open, you're inviting thieves in. The RP wasn't forced, it was invited by the guilds leaving their doors unlocked. It's not too hard to keep a door locked.
2) There was no IC posters, talking, etc., because the guilds who were robbed went crying to the GMs to get the banhammer laid down, rather than treating the offence as an IC offence. On a real role-playing server, they'd be told to suck it up, RP it out and see what happens.
3) Of course he was looking for a fourth house to rob, he was always looking for houses to rob. It's what house-thieves do. Simple solution: Keep your doors LOCKED if you don't want to be ROBBED. It's goddamn COMMON SENSE.
Leaving a GH door unlocked is as bad as unloading your platinum in the plaza and then logging out for an hour.
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I understand the development team's position on this: the roleplayers blew it in PS.
Wong. The game went down the toilet, the roleplayers, asked for help and got ignored/dismissed.
We left because the game sucked beyond repair and nobody was willing to help fix it.
Regarding the house robbery, expect to see more of this amateur rp.
In a nutshell, people who respect one another and are in it for rp will be able to resolve these problems on their own without running from gms.
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:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:
Akaiddo, even though I agree with you… this is off-topic. You're angry because Vak got banned. It's fine, I understand it, but this is no place to vent your rage.
BTW, I joined SkyLab (now Zeroping) to roleplay. And that's what I do EVERY SINGLE TIME I open PS and play.
>Mishka Taohren shakes a fist in anger!
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Yeah it's called grieving derailment. I don't really think Vaka should have been banned if he was RPing that, but if he wasn't then he should have known how badly a PLer guild would have taken it and that they would do what they could to take him down.
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There was a good two weeks at least between the first robbery and the second and third robber. Plenty of time to get the RP going yet there
was no RP revolving around the original house robbery.
I believe Akkaido you said that two of the3 guilds involved int eh robberies aren't RP guilds which begs the question why would you try to start a guild level RP with a non rp guild, much less two of them? By the way of the 3 guild robbed which one do you consider to be the RP guild?
Just because mechanics gives you the ability to do something doesn't mean you should. As I said lots of time if the house robberies had involved a limited number of items and no irreplaceable personal items ( like personal books) then the GMs wouldn't have gotten involved. The house thefts went way over the top with the number and types of objects taken
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Wong. The game went down the toilet, the roleplayers, asked for help and got ignored/dismissed.
We left because the game sucked beyond repair and nobody was willing to help fix it.
The game went "down the toilet" and the "game sucked beyond repair" ... yes, you're right, its simply an awful game. Its terrible and horrible and, how o how, could they do this to one, after one had put sooo much effort into the game. The terrible things the roleplayers had to put up with in PS. Its just awful what the devs did. Not! Hubris... its called pride going before a fall. Roled is here, as are a number of others. People let their heads get too big, is about the size of it. Conflicts ensued. Cry me a river.
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DoX are of course the RP guild.
Why shouldn't RPers attempt guild level role-plays with non-role-playing guilds on a ROLE-PLAYING server? In fact, why are non-RP guilds (who even you admit don't role-play) allowed to stay on the role-playing server?
But hey, I'm disillusioned enough now. Back on topic. If you want a role-playing server, folks, there's Conquest of the Horde (fantastic role-play there by the way), or wait until TA is released, as that team has the integrity at least to not start a role-playing server unless they're prepared to adhere to the conventions and formulas of good role-playing.
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CoTH <3
Try not to advertise it on this forum again, there are people here that might find their way there that really shouldn't be on that RP server, as much as they don't need to be on PS's RP server.
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Well I can see how much you actually know about all of this. DOX was not one of the houses that was robbed. The Houses that were robbed were Order of Light, Wayward Kingdom and the Organization. and I have seen good RP from members of all those guilds.
Also since I am filling you in none of the guilds asked for a Ban. That was an action that came straight form the GM team and all the members of the GM team who expressed an opinion all supported a ban. The only real discussion was on the length of the ban.
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*hands out hater shades in celebration of the new title* 8)
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*hands out hater shades in celebration of the new title* 8)
(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/7/17/c0b21e28-dfd7-4dd4-840a-db8f2b3c4b8f.gif)(http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/tumblr_l6z09z10bk1qz6a7po1_500.gif?w=493&h=319)
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Well I can see how much you actually know about all of this. DOX was not one of the houses that was robbed. The Houses that were robbed were Order of Light, Wayward Kingdom and the Organization. and I have seen good RP from members of all those guilds.
Also since I am filling you in none of the guilds asked for a Ban. That was an action that came straight form the GM team and all the members of the GM team who expressed an opinion all supported a ban. The only real discussion was on the length of the ban.
Shows how much YOU know about it, I was watching his screen as he robbed DoX. Being a role-playing guild, they didn't cry to the GMs about it, and when they caught him in there, role-played a chase through Hydlaa.
Sorry, Sarva, you're WRONGEH.
So I guess that makes four GHs robbed then.
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Sorry Akkaido I know the DOX house wasn't robbed. Although Dannae did leave the door open to the house of the Organization and Danne is a member of DOX so I can see how you might be confused. And I'm sure the DOX members would have complained just as the other guilds did. Also since we have the exchange logs from the last house theft we know what was taken, Funny how the items taken in the last robbery listed Organization guild items in the personal books taken and not DOX guild items.
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Perhaps you should ask Chessire which house she caught Vieg in then.
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Okay....here we go...
Trust is the root issue here. Since there is mass hate (and haters are indeed gonna hate), there are no opportunities for truly spontaneous RP. As an Outlaw, one of the first things we have to teach people who join is how to initiate a robbery OOCly (or murder etc.). The reason for this is because nobody wants to be robbed/killed OOCly, and as true anywhere, people fail to separate their characters from themselves. So when a robbery happens, they feel like they -really- were robbed. This leads to people being OOC out for blood. It's the same reason why most RP fights suck, because most can't stand an IC loss OOCly. The other problem is, unfortunately, that while the character in question was willing to return the stuff in an RP, there are indeed those who do it to sell the items for IG money, or to be annoying. While with the Red Crystal Den, there was definitely concern for people who may log out in the den, then log in during off hours to clean it out, as we were very careful to always lock up every day. Now, if indeed the player was banned without any talks with the GMs about his intentions, then there is an issue with it. BUT perhaps it would be wise for the player who does this to inform the robbed, even if it's after the fact, so they know that they shouldn't take it personal. Again, this is a game, and as I've read in countless MMORPG forums, we should all know to separate the game from real life. But, it happens. The banhammer probably came swiftly due to the negative PR the game has been getting (both deservedly and undeservedly), and if it appears that they allow griefing (intentional or unintentional) it creates more bad press.
Another huge reason for the state of things IMO (and I've seen it in other games as well), is *GW Bush word coming* GUILDIFICATION. What this new invented term means is that guilds are growing strongly OOCly instead of ICly, mainly based on game theory instead of game settings. In essence, while players who have voiced there opinion and left have been deemed the "Nazis", PS has been growing many small (or large) "Nazi" groups for a while now, whether its the "RP Nazi", the "PL Nazi", the "I want to be a Paladan who cares if this isn't Warcraft Nazi", the "Don't Discuss Other Projects While You're Here Nazi", etc. There is no one person or group to blame. These groups VERY OBVIOUSLY formed, and it was ALLOWED to perpetuate to the point where the community divides became strong. Real life example: Democrats and Republicans. No matter if one side comes up with a positive solution to make change, the other party is likely to side against it to advance their own side. This game is no different. Most have taken a side, and they will stick to it, and whether liked or not, the GM Position will always be a side. And when devs/testers/gms are calling players Nazis, they are putting the community at arms length and dividing it further by adding fuel to the fire. The GMs -and- the players need to take responsibility in this. Players need to stop dividing and start uniting, and GMs need to stop using banning/kicking/censorship to threaten its community instead of using forums like these where players discuss their differences to find the root cause. Because while it's easy to be right, its much harder to be humble, and a huge dose of humility is definitely what the doctor ordered.
Thanks for listening. I play MMORPGs for the people I meet. And a huge part of why I left was to join some of them elsewhere. If anyone wants PS to succeed, its not about RP or PL or any of it. It's about people. We stop acting like animals to each other when we start seeing the people on the other side of the chatbox.
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One of the things I learned when I first started playing this game is that it is bad form to force your RP onto others. You should invite others into your RP if you have something you want to do that will have major affect on another player.
Even in my relatively short time here this has been understood by me as well. Recently a player friend of mine said that she had a friend that wanted to do a robbery on my character if I wanted the RP. That seemed top form to me and it is my intention to get back to them about it.
Playing here is a privilege and not a right. GMs may seem heavy handed in any role playing venue because they can. Sadly but true, players can always be replaced.
- Nova
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I understand the development team's position on this: the roleplayers blew it in PS.
Sorry. :thumbdown: This generalisation makes me feel sad for roleplaying, because I am put into one pot with the so-blamed "elite / hardcore / nazi" roleplayers.
Be careful with your statements. (Not verden specifically, just in general.)
There are several levels of roleplayers - some who are able to accept limits, and some who try to break them recklessly.
Being blamed as roleplayer to destroy the game feels like some kind of "racism" to me ... there were other times when power-levelers were blamed of the same and got their own server; do we need a third one to separate the community more and more? Separation everywhere, instead of coexistence and tolerance. Hooray.
Not the roleplayers or the power-levelers are the reason a game gets destroyed. But the people with blinds on.
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Playing here is a privilege and not a right. GMs may seem heavy handed in any role playing venue because they can. Sadly but true, players can always be replaced.
- Nova
Playing on a role-playing server one would expect role-playing. In this case the ones who aren't role-players were sided with over the person who was. And the GMs say "If someone doesn't want to RP, they shouldn't have to". It's a ROLEPLAY server, isn't it? Isn't it?
@LigH: The problem is that the non-roleplaying crowd were given a server, but refused to move to it. And the "team" sided with them.
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Sorry. :thumbdown: This generalisation makes me feel sad for roleplaying, because I am put into one pot with the so-blamed "elite / hardcore / nazi" roleplayers.
I'm gonna repost this since apparently it got missed somehow...
Another huge reason for the state of things IMO (and I've seen it in other games as well), is *GW Bush word coming* GUILDIFICATION. What this new invented term means is that guilds are growing strongly OOCly instead of ICly, mainly based on game theory instead of game settings. In essence, while players who have voiced there opinion and left have been deemed the "Nazis", PS has been growing many small (or large) "Nazi" groups for a while now, whether its the "RP Nazi", the "PL Nazi", the "I want to be a Paladan who cares if this isn't Warcraft Nazi", the "Don't Discuss Other Projects While You're Here Nazi", etc. There is no one person or group to blame. These groups VERY OBVIOUSLY formed, and it was ALLOWED to perpetuate to the point where the community divides became strong. Real life example: Democrats and Republicans. No matter if one side comes up with a positive solution to make change, the other party is likely to side against it to advance their own side. This game is no different. Most have taken a side, and they will stick to it, and whether liked or not, the GM Position will always be a side. And when devs/testers/gms are calling players Nazis, they are putting the community at arms length and dividing it further by adding fuel to the fire. The GMs -and- the players need to take responsibility in this. Players need to stop dividing and start uniting, and GMs need to stop using banning/kicking/censorship to threaten its community instead of using forums like these where players discuss their differences to find the root cause. Because while it's easy to be right, its much harder to be humble, and a huge dose of humility is definitely what the doctor ordered.
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Playing on a role-playing server one would expect role-playing.
Just because something is done on an RP server does not mean it is RP by definition.
- Nova
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@ PhoenixRizin: Thank you, interesting quote... To refine my point: It is less important on which side you are, but more how much you can accept the existance of other sides. That is the essence of "tolerance".
@ Akaiddo: Where did you get that permission to presume rating/judging whole guilds by reactions of specific members on a crime (or even just on the luck of catching a criminal redhanded)? Terms like "(non-) roleplaying guilds" are an impudence. Guilds represent an average of all their members, and the result is not boolean. Not even the members' choice between RP and PL is boolean.
@ Vakachehk: I don't care any bit about your IQ. It doesn't make up for life experience in the slightest. And it doesn't protect from being wrong in a context of a society. I'll recommend the "Peter Principle" to you.
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It wasn't inside a house, it was when I was checking doors and saw them and hid behind a house and they caught me and had a run around.
@ Sarva you are saying it is my job to RP it... well I did by robbing the house, it isn't up to me to place books up saying there has been robberies, a robber would much rather not get found out... wouldn't he?
@ Nova you were there on Venorel when we had the chase around. If an action was done on an RP server it was RPed, am I right?
Well all you PLers better get practising your RP because once I am 21 and if I become a GM you'd be gone :)
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I understand the development team's position on this: the roleplayers blew it in PS.
Sorry. :thumbdown: This generalisation makes me feel sad for roleplaying, because I am put into one pot with the so-blamed "elite / hardcore / nazi" roleplayers.
Be careful with your statements. (Not verden specifically, just in general.)
There are several levels of roleplayers - some who are able to accept limits, and some who try to break them recklessly.
Being blamed as roleplayer to destroy the game feels like some kind of "racism" to me ... there were other times when power-levelers were blamed of the same and got their own server; do we need a third one to separate the community more and more? Separation everywhere, instead of coexistence and tolerance. Hooray.
Not the roleplayers or the power-levelers are the reason a game gets destroyed. But the people with blinds on.
Coexistance and tolerance!
Yes, that is needed.
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If an action was done on an RP server it was RPed, am I right?
No, that is an illogical and inappropriate generalisation. If it was so, we would never have had any discussion about non-roleplayers, or about OOC crimes.
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If an action was done on an RP server it was RPed, am I right?
No, that is an illogical and inappropriate generalisation. If it was so, we would never have had any discussion about non-roleplayers, or about OOC crimes.
And you are the so called RP government and can make those calls. Any action done on an RP server is roleplayed, so long as the action is within the settings it is.
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I would prefer a lot to be "roleplay-robbed" e.g. by any Outlaw or Cutthroat - or what Kull currently does in the Tower of Knowledge - in a clearly roleplayed style over being robbed in my absence without any interaction between the characters. This is a roleplaying game. It has to stay a game. Good or bad luck have to stay roleplayed. Making them persistent moves them out of the game into real-life.
Vieg is in The Dark Empire, just so you know. Which is a secret and bad guild too.
Ok so I agree I should of placed something like a book describing some evidence or a little piece of Vieg's Cloak that may of gotten ripped off, etc. But yes I was in a hurry to get out and let the RP done latter once they find out. But when they found out, nothing happened from their side so really, nothing I could of done.
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I didn't see this thread before today, and as I see are most things already said. But I want to add and repeat a few things.
I made clear before, that I simply don't accept that some players willingly hurt others to have fun, and this is what happened here. Xoel made already clear somewhere else that he doesn't agree with my attitude, that I want all players to enjoy the game, and not just some on costs of others. So no need to repeat that here.
The main problem is, that one player had fun by hurting other players. To make it clear: Not the chars, the players.
The other problem is, that there was no rp involved in the matter that lead to the ban. To make it clear beforehand: If you roleplay just with yourself, or with people not involved in the matter in question, it also doesn't count for that matter.
Let me just make a quick and dirty summarization (For the flamers: please note that it's not intended to be comprehensive) how this robbery was done or could have been done:
1) You, as player, see a open guild house. You could do a few things: You can inform the guild about it, because you know some would (ab)use it. You can decide to rob them.
2) You decided to rob them, so you can again decide between a few things: You tell them beforehand and agree on an interesting rp. Or you can just do that without agreement and knowing it'll cause grief on the players behind the chars.
3) So, you rob the house without agreement. You can rob a few valuable items, or, you can decide to (almost) completely clean the house out.
4) Ok, you decided to rob the house without agreement, thus cause some grief and also to clean it out. You can now decide to inform the players after this was done to force this action as rp on them. They'll probably be angry with you, but this can be solved with a talk, maybe with the help of a gm to moderate before it gets bad. Or, you can decide to keep the items and not tell them. Not in day, not in weeks, never.
5) You decided to
- just keep the items(also items of just personal value)
- Not tell the players in any way so they have a clue what actually happened (it's not their task to be god and know everything)
- Not leave any trace
- Make no attemt to start a rp that involves the robbed people and leave them any chance.
6)You repeat that with more guild houses. You never do anything to start a roleplay that goes past the lonely, not agreed cleaning out of several houses.
And finally, you declare it as task of the victims to start a rp with you and declare everything as their guilt.
You didn't separate ic and ooc here and you show not the least will to even consider that something went wrong (not until that sentence in your last post).
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It is easy to make up a story on what your intentions were after a ban is imposed. Funny that you stayed silent when in game you were ported to me (Would like to point out I was visible so no mistaking the fact I was a GM.) and I spoke to you, made my intentions clear and you never responded.
Plenty of time was given for you to respond, but as you did not, you left me no option but to ban you.
So a warning to you all; respond when a GM talks to you, and especially if he/she is visible.
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Or respond to a GM and get warned for it...doesn't really matter. (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/about1255.html)
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Sorry. :thumbdown: This generalisation makes me feel sad for roleplaying, because I am put into one pot with the so-blamed "elite / hardcore / nazi" roleplayers. Be careful with your statements. (Not verden specifically, just in general.)
Quite right. There have been all manner of roleplayers and there always will be. I would even count in with you on that one. I guess my frustration was leaking out. Have you ever noticed how petulant the people that "leave" the game get about the game? In five years, I have seen it happen countless times. The player (who could have been a EHN roleplayer or a "powerleveler") goes through a boom-and-bust cycle that winds up with them returning to the forum and bashing the game again and again. The game is worse than Satan, everything is the fault of the (devs/RPers/PLers), and the game is just terrible, horrible, awful.
This is actually a very nice game for what it is. If you have no expectations when you come to PS, you will probably be very happy with the game. If you have high expectations or participate in these sorts of games for the purposes of inflating one's ego... then one will bust and leave, usually followed by a stream of petulant posts. People need to grow up. Its a game. Either play it or don't.
I don't hate roleplay. I hate the fact that there is no system for managing it in game, and it is a free-for-all situation where people use the concept of "roleplaying" as an excuse for acting hateful to one another in game. When you get down to a strict, game mechanics definition, PS is not a roleplaying game. These endless arguments about roleplaying, the way people use it as an excuse for trivial nonsense (this robbery that is being discussed), using the concept to hate on one another in game... these have all worn me down.
I started in 2005. There were the Rangers of Yliakum, the Enlightened, RHoP, Outlaws, SCoY, and a host of smaller and changing guilds, and people fought, and roleplay was often out of setting, and sometimes it was kind of stupid the RPs they did... but they stayed in game and kept it going. I remember the Trial of Daehaz for crying out loud, I was there in the Iron Temple. I miss Einnol and Indygo, Zhai, Vanae and a bunch of other people who could pull it off without hating on anyone, without banging anyone on the head, who stopped playing without getting all petulant and boringly hateful about it.
But the fact is that people leave games like this. They can't stay. Their life pulls them back or they get bored. And going on and on about the game/developers/powerlevelers/roleplayers/Talad doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. People have to be respectful of one another and quit dividing everything into black and white camps of I-am-this-I-am-not-that-and-you-(insert term)-are-ruining-the-game-get-off-this-server.
The only way to continue roleplay in PS is to get in game and do it... like Roled. He is there in game much more often than on the forums talking about roleplay, and when he does he does so in character, always. He manages to do it without hating on anyone, without being creepy or weird, and obviously has some class.
I'm sorry PheonixRizin if I made you sad. I am sad when I read all of this. I know I appear as a troll sometimes. But I love this project, and I have met many worthwhile people over the years. Many of whom have left, and a number of them I still talk to. There is no place like PlaneShift, and I like it the way it is. But the community needs help. The game is only going to get better, albeit slowly, and there is nothing at any time that stops one from going in game and seeking RP with people. But if your standards are going to be sooo high, or conversely, if you want to treat roleplayers like idiots... then how can you ever have fun here?
Vakacheck, your actions were inappropriate for RP in PlaneShift. It is detailed in a number of places including the covenant, which I think appears in game now. Quit arguing about it. Everyone knows it was an OOC abuse of mechanics and continuing to try and justify it is meaningless.
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I know I appear as a troll sometimes.
I agree.
But i agree even more with your complete post Verden. Well said.
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I'm not writing here to spread grief, ridicule or yell at anybody. I just want to share some thoughts I collected while reading this.
@ Sarva you are saying it is my job to RP it... well I did by robbing the house, it isn't up to me to place books up saying there has been robberies, a robber would much rather not get found out... wouldn't he?
If the case here was a RL robbery, you are right. The robbers don't want to be found. The problem here though is that for it to be good RP, and not seen as an act of OOC griefing, you need to let the people have a fighting chance to get their stuff back. And to do so, they need some kind of hint as to who did this. The reason, as I see it, to why the GMs deemed this as griefing is this.
Intention to Cause Grief:
The term “Intention to Cause Grief” refers to doing something with the objective of ruining the gaming experience of a player or a group of players.
You chose to not contact the people that would be involved in this RP, to make sure that they understood that this was not meant as griefing. By doing so, you have, perhaps somewhat unwillingly, brought this down on yourself.
... Shows how much YOU know about it, I was watching his screen as he robbed DoX. ...
... The GMs involved weren't even open to the idea that he had taken his roleplay a bit out of hand, it was decided from the start, without any discussion with him, that he was suddenly an OOC griefer and must be purged from the community. For a roleplay. Sure, not the neatest and most well-conceptualised and planned roleplay, but it was an IC action nonetheless ...
This could have been a time to offer some constructive critisism. I've known both of you since you started playing, and I know you are capable of good RP.
... People in PlaneShift don't role-play ...
I agree that some don't. Giving the whole community a stamp of disapproval at once will not help your ideas get through.
Or respond to a GM and get warned for it...doesn't really matter. (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/about1255.html)
OOC text is to be designated with ( ), [ ] or { } as regular text comes from the mouth of your character ...
It is fine to make a short OOC comment in public in the way explained above, however if a longer OOC discussion is not avoidable either use /tell or else /group.
Nuff said, don't make it bigger than it is. (If this goes against GAME POLICY 09 I am sorry for the intrution.)
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I'm sorry PheonixRizin if I made you sad. I am sad when I read all of this. I know I appear as a troll sometimes. But I love this project, and I have met many worthwhile people over the years. Many of whom have left, and a number of them I still talk to. There is no place like PlaneShift, and I like it the way it is. But the community needs help. The game is only going to get better, albeit slowly, and there is nothing at any time that stops one from going in game and seeking RP with people. But if your standards are going to be sooo high, or conversely, if you want to treat roleplayers like idiots... then how can you ever have fun here?
On the contrary, that is my point exactly. My discussion was mainly about labels, and the reason for all this mess is the way people separate themselves into groups. Most of my fun stopped when this "grouping" became as apparent in game as it did out of it. If you still have fun in PS, then great. It's a game, you are supposed to enjoy it. However, my point, which may be lost again, is that all sides kinda hops into the "I'm right, you're wrong" category, though it's usually those labeled as "RP Nazi" who get the blame. Those who know/knew me IG know that I Rped with pretty much anyone, no matter what their level or style. Standards will always vary, but as soon as people get thrown into groups (RPer, PLer), then thats when the divide becomes strongest. I reposted my earlier quote (I hope you read the post in full) because despite what I said, there was a conscious decision to further the divide. So if anything, seeing THAT is what makes me sad, not someone who actually wants the divide to disappear.
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Thank you, Troyyer and PheonixRizin. The main thing to remember in PS, or anywhere else, is be excellent to one another, whenever it is possible. The fact that we are all semi-obsessed with this odd little project generally indicates that we all have more in common, than we have differences.
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Frankly, we need to be less judgemental about people ingame. I'm willing to accept people who may not be good at RP yet, but are WILLING TO LEARN. However, we get the "guildification" effect (ESPECIALLY with OOC, mass-recruiting guilds (you know who you are) that basically starve RP guilds (many of which have very valid RP reasons to be slower/pickier about recruiting than the OOC mass-recruiters) of people while (in some cases at least) sending the newbies they recruit down the garden path wrt RP. What also hurts is the lack of players. 0.5 killed us in this regard; mainly due to the jump in hardware requirements. This makes spontaneous RP (I try to pick stuff up at times) MUCH harder to find...also, we have many characters who seem to have no time for conversation, which is a killer for spontaneous RP. (They often run by /greet's or "Hello there"s without even as much as acknowledging the greeter's presence, ne pausing for a bit of small talk.) Finally, why does nobody seem to want to hang out in the taverns these days? Is everybody really too busy hunting/crafting/questing?
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If you want to stop the hate, start with yourself and stop the hate inside you.
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I love this community.
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Or respond to a GM and get warned for it...doesn't really matter. (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/about1255.html)
OOC text is to be designated with ( ), [ ] or { } as regular text comes from the mouth of your character ...
It is fine to make a short OOC comment in public in the way explained above, however if a longer OOC discussion is not avoidable either use /tell or else /group.
Nuff said, don't make it bigger than it is. (If this goes against GAME POLICY 09 I am sorry for the intrution.)
If you'd read the link you'd see that in fact the player in question was warned by the GM involved for no more than one line of [OOC], and to add to that, it was a typo correction. Then given a kick from the server when they said (sorry, I'm abridging the whole convo into one line) "I haven't done anything wrong, get out of my face and stop disturbing my gameplay." So Koios I'd say it's a fairly big issue for a GM to be acting in this way. It reminds me of bullying, corrupt police officers.
Here's the main issue for me. What Vakachehk did was not handled correctly. He proved it wasn't his INTENT to grief, therefore his actions were not griefing. He didn't intend to ruin other's gameplay experience. His role-play was simply not great or flawless. Theredore his actions were more of a misdemeanor, not a great OOC crime as the GM team would like you to believe.They're too busy trying to looks strong and united than to admit a ban was too stronger action on someone who was merely naive. At least one dev has said "They left their GH open, tough luck.", some others have suggested decent, workable solutions, logical solutions. But those who have the control have stuck to the guns. In fact, I know the one in charge who added more insult to the injury by saying the ban would be extended if his wishes weren't met.... he has friends in the guild that left their house open for a whole week. Favoritism?
As the dev offering logical solutions said, it'd be better for the ban to be lifted, apologies made, the items returned and the RP in question halted.
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hi hi... So funny to see Akkaido not kissing up for once... :o A very odd change. Anywho... After Donari's run I can see why the GMs might be a little bit on the trigger happy side. Donari always had an excuse that technically was an RP way of explaning his actions, but the fact that he was always using crooked means hidden under an RP venier is what ultimately got the hammer brought down. They are probably tired of hearing "I was RPing" as an excuse for doing stuff common sense should tell you to think twice about (and that ultimately means more work for them later).
You should always be considerate of the other people involved in an RP. The problem sounds like it's a matter of understanding that this kind of robbery is a form of godmodding. The people involved might not get a chance to recover their items, but taking what was probably an OOC mistake(leaving the door unlocked) as a chance to RP something that affects them and not giving them prior warning is just wrong.
I know ettiquette has never been your strong suit Xoel but I think you can still graps parts of this concept. Imagine, if you will, a GM coming by and "stealing" a large portion of your stats and skills under the guise that they are RPing a fickle spirit. This spirit decided that it would take advantage of the fact that you were just standing there (and the fact that you could do nothing about it :whistling: ) and it complete shuts you out while the "stealing" is happening. You know you'd be ticked, and the fact that it was "RPed" would not make much difference to you. Even the chance to recover the lost stats over time (not by training) would probably not be much comfort. It's the same principle... regardless of the apparent opportunity, you should still be considerate.
That being said, there are plenty of better things Vakachekh can do with the time. They've probably done him a favor.
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You should always be considerate of the other people involved in an RP. The problem sounds like it's a matter of understanding that this kind of robbery is a form of godmodding. The people involved might not get a chance to recover their items, but taking what was probably an OOC mistake(leaving the door unlocked) as a chance to RP something that affects them and not giving them prior warning is just wrong.
Yes. Nicely said, dear.
Here's the main issue for me. What Vakachehk did was not handled correctly. He proved it wasn't his INTENT to grief, therefore his actions were not griefing. He didn't intend to ruin other's gameplay experience. His role-play was simply not great or flawless.
If there was a ban, it was issued based on actions taken, not on intentions. Anybody who doesn't understand this concept clearly and plainly is in great danger of encountering IRL problems with law enforcement persons. GMs cannot make judgements in some text interface over what a persons intentions were, it would be improper to base a decision on speculation. The only thing the GMs can verify is if certain actions were taken by the character, any bans would be issued on that basis.
Finally, why does nobody seem to want to hang out in the taverns these days? Is everybody really too busy hunting/crafting/questing?
I remember bartending quite a few times. Back in the day, characters like Ralas and Archon would come over and hang out. It would just be a good time. Nothing too intensive. I remember playing dice with Indygo and listening to Einnol tell a tale in front of the great fireplace in the Kada-El. I remember when it started raining one of the first times and it seemed like a whole bunch of people showed up in the tavern to get out of the rain. Sometimes the RPs would be exclusive, and the attitudes of what I called the power-RPers would take over, but there were a lot of settings-neutral RPs that I remember. Just good times.
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@ Illysia: as long as I got my stats back eventually I'd be happy.
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Then be happy, Vackchekh will get his access back eventually. ;)
I remember bartending quite a few times. Back in the day, characters like Ralas and Archon would come over and hang out. It would just be a good time. Nothing too intensive. I remember playing dice with Indygo and listening to Einnol tell a tale in front of the great fireplace in the Kada-El. I remember when it started raining one of the first times and it seemed like a whole bunch of people showed up in the tavern to get out of the rain. Sometimes the RPs would be exclusive, and the attitudes of what I called the power-RPers would take over, but there were a lot of settings-neutral RPs that I remember. Just good times.
Bartending, when I last did it, was drudgery often times. It was nice when other characters interacted with Telnavi and gave two tria that she was a character in her own right and not a lifeless NPC but it seemed to me that many players were too caught up in the latest "incident" in their own RPs to interact with the world around them. At least as far as it didn't concern their RP.
It was fun with Indy but to me that was character development time, not just settings neutral. RPs now seems less about watching your character grow and interact and more about making sure they have a first hand account of the latest uproar in the city. It's not that there is anything wrong with a little commotion now and again but I don't think people think about the larger story any more. (and the larger story includes more than the happenings in Hydlaa I might add)
I blame the small horizons of people’s characters for the rash of only murder and sex filled RPs. It’s not that no one ever gets murdered, but there is no way the guards would sit idly while the city the Octarch lives in goes seriously to pot. It would have taken more than executions to restore order after some of the stuff that happened. Can you say martial law?
It might be cool to do your own murder plot but each plot is only one facet in the whole so people should take the other concurrent plots into account when planning. And consider the settings of the area you are in. Nudge nudge wink wink… Oja is the kind of city that you could have done that in without being heavily out of settings.
Darn… there you guys go bringing up feelings of caring and concern for RP in PS again… Got me writing again. Welps… that just means I need to go find something better to do… er… beside homework maybe. :-\
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I didn't see this thread before today, and as I see are most things already said. But I want to add and repeat a few things.
I made clear before, that I simply don't accept that some players willingly hurt others to have fun, and this is what happened here. Xoel made already clear somewhere else that he doesn't agree with my attitude, that I want all players to enjoy the game, and not just some on costs of others. So no need to repeat that here.
The main problem is, that one player had fun by hurting other players. To make it clear: Not the chars, the players.
The other problem is, that there was no rp involved in the matter that lead to the ban. To make it clear beforehand: If you roleplay just with yourself, or with people not involved in the matter in question, it also doesn't count for that matter.
Let me just make a quick and dirty summarization (For the flamers: please note that it's not intended to be comprehensive) how this robbery was done or could have been done:
1) You, as player, see a open guild house. You could do a few things: You can inform the guild about it, because you know some would (ab)use it. You can decide to rob them.
2) You decided to rob them, so you can again decide between a few things: You tell them beforehand and agree on an interesting rp. Or you can just do that without agreement and knowing it'll cause grief on the players behind the chars.
3) So, you rob the house without agreement. You can rob a few valuable items, or, you can decide to (almost) completely clean the house out.
4) Ok, you decided to rob the house without agreement, thus cause some grief and also to clean it out. You can now decide to inform the players after this was done to force this action as rp on them. They'll probably be angry with you, but this can be solved with a talk, maybe with the help of a gm to moderate before it gets bad. Or, you can decide to keep the items and not tell them. Not in day, not in weeks, never.
5) You decided to
- just keep the items(also items of just personal value)
- Not tell the players in any way so they have a clue what actually happened (it's not their task to be god and know everything)
- Not leave any trace
- Make no attemt to start a rp that involves the robbed people and leave them any chance.
6)You repeat that with more guild houses. You never do anything to start a roleplay that goes past the lonely, not agreed cleaning out of several houses.
And finally, you declare it as task of the victims to start a rp with you and declare everything as their guilt.
You didn't separate ic and ooc here and you show not the least will to even consider that something went wrong (not until that sentence in your last post).
Sorry but that to me is godmoding you CAN NOT I mean CAN NOT say that! Absolutely cannot. Why? Because you have no idea what my intentions were, I try my hardest to get along with the community, and yes there are my haters out there and they certainly are not OoL, DoX, WK or TO. I think you got the wrong 'fun' her, I wanted fun as an RP not as ohhhh I have heaps of rare weapons.
@ Ingles you see very professional here. You are a GM... start acting like one! Some hints use "yes" "No" not "Nope", "yeah" (unless in a unprofessional conversation). No matter who you think is in the wrong you still need to show some f***ing respect to them!
No it wasn't funny. I was afk, if I didn't want to respond to you then why would I bother going on IRC when I got back...? Did you bother asking Dalkki? who I told that was online in The Dark Empire that I told her I was afk. But yes sorry next time I go away for dinner I'll try and remember to do /away.
When I came onto IRC the lack of communication brought me to HaniX... another "I don't listen because I don't give a crap" person to talk too... I simple asked you to explain, and first words were "lets stay calm here" Ohh calm?? right, you were the first to get smart anyways.
@everyone else
"My RP" MINE! Are you serious. Well my RP was within settings and are better than a lot of other crap roleplay on Zeroping. The only reason why you are saying "my RP" is bad is really because I had noone to RP with, because the lack of RP coming from the other guilds. I mean come on, its not that hard to RP your house being robbed... is it? Wait it is when they are not meant for an RP server... dohh how stupid of me.
Well another thing I was shocked with, is also by the GMs. When these flaming players came onto your GM channel, why didn't you bother to direct them to RP it? Why didn't you discuss with me and them if we were willing to RP it? Do you ever think about RP?
@Moderator Haters gonna hate? disappointing to me, I really hate the fact that RPers are having to complain about the lack of kicking for OOCness or lack of good RPs. So much that when a bunch of OOC PLers named Wayward Kingdom threaten to leave if there robbed stuff (Robbed twice) aren't returned. But yet when RPers get snotty you just look the other way instead of trying to fix the issue. :thumbdown:
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One of the things I learned when I first started playing this game is that it is bad form to force your RP onto others. You should invite others into your RP if you have something you want to do that will have major affect on another player. I would say stealing items of great value ( be they of real value or just personal value) is something that has a major affect on lots of players. In this case it seems this so called RP was forced on a lot of people with no invitation
having an unlocked door seems like an RP invite to me. it's not like they're forcing anything upon you that breaks the game rules. for example, a rape roleplay. that's just screwed up and should be /reported. a robbery doesn't break any rules because it's allowed in the game mechanics and, as this is a game, no players are actually being robbed. the GMs should never have stepped in.
imho, anyone who /reports a robbery like this needs to get out of their mother's basement and realize pixels don't actually matter.
It is easy to make up a story on what your intentions were after a ban is imposed. Funny that you stayed silent when in game you were ported to me (Would like to point out I was visible so no mistaking the fact I was a GM.) and I spoke to you, made my intentions clear and you never responded.
Plenty of time was given for you to respond, but as you did not, you left me no option but to ban you.
So a warning to you all; respond when a GM talks to you, and especially if he/she is visible.
so you... banned him? what the hell is wrong with you? he could've been taking a dump! ???
also, i don't think vakachehk executed this "robbery" with the intention of causing grief. and i don't think he would have understood the potential grief caused by his actions. he should not have been punished. he's a kid, reckless, but still learning. so i think the ban should be lifted.
Or respond to a GM and get warned for it...doesn't really matter. (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/about1255.html)
OOC text is to be designated with ( ), [ ] or { } as regular text comes from the mouth of your character ...
It is fine to make a short OOC comment in public in the way explained above, however if a longer OOC discussion is not avoidable either use /tell or else /group.
Nuff said, don't make it bigger than it is. (If this goes against GAME POLICY 09 I am sorry for the intrution.)
in this case a player was being abused by a GM. the devs apparently had no problem with what the GM was doing and may have supported him.
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One of the things I learned when I first started playing this game is that it is bad form to force your RP onto others. You should invite others into your RP if you have something you want to do that will have major affect on another player. I would say stealing items of great value ( be they of real value or just personal value) is something that has a major affect on lots of players. In this case it seems this so called RP was forced on a lot of people with no invitation
having an unlocked door seems like an RP invite to me. it's not like they're forcing anything upon you that breaks the game rules. for example, a rape roleplay. that's just screwed up and should be /reported. a robbery doesn't break any rules because it's allowed in the game mechanics and, as this is a game, no players are actually being robbed. the GMs should never have stepped in.
imho, anyone who /reports a robbery like this needs to get out of their mother's basement and realize pixels don't actually matter.
Nice comment there Sarras, first time I have fully agreed with you :)
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It is easy to make up a story on what your intentions were after a ban is imposed. Funny that you stayed silent when in game you were ported to me (Would like to point out I was visible so no mistaking the fact I was a GM.) and I spoke to you, made my intentions clear and you never responded.
Plenty of time was given for you to respond, but as you did not, you left me no option but to ban you.
So a warning to you all; respond when a GM talks to you, and especially if he/she is visible.
It's called "being afk". Don't be such a tool. Not all players are at their keyboards the entire time they are logged in, and most players who aren't always at their keyboards haven't figured out the /away message thing, I certainly never did.
@Durgrem: It's an RP server, actions should immediately be considered IC. Oh, no wait, it isn't a role-play server anymore... they should probably write so to clarify.
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LOL! This is the most I have heard about rules with guild houses...
Proclamation from the ruling body of the Octarch.
Any guildhouse problems are to be reported to a guard.
This includes theft of property from within said premises.
Loss of a Key or Master key resulting in the state having to recover or replacing said key.
The state will replace a lock, on receiving 1 million tria from the guild leader, If this happens again the price will be doubled.
Finally for any of the above.
A third and final time will result in the guild being put on notice that if it happens again the said property of the guild will be repossessed by the state.
Sounds like Wayward Kingdom will loose their house the next time they get robbed ;)
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I see that I should have worded myself a bit differently, or perhaps written a bit more about what I replied to the link Aiwendil posted. I just didn't want the post to be too long.
Again, stepping lightly here so not to go against gaming policy.
I agree that the person was wrongfully dealt with, hence my quote of the gaming policy. I was just trying to say that the way the link was presented, I saw it as an attempt to discredit all GMs.
Everyone can have a bad day once in a while. And as we all know, the best solution wasn't to then respond in ways that could potentially be seen as snarly.
Now, this quote is not from a sticky thread, but it is still a valid thread imo.
Etiquette
Alright this is when common sense comes into play. Would you rob a person in the middle of a plaza in real life? Please use some common sense especially when starting tavern fights in front of the guards outside. And also be fair and roll its not that hard agree on a number with your target and ask permission we dont need another guild house theft incident.
Example: At least give it a try like this
Newbie: [Hey can I try and pickpocket you?]
Player : [Hehe sure!]
Newbie: [So what number we roll to 1-49 YAY L007 for me nub! and 50-99 OMG I LOST HAX!?]
Player: [Uhh... Sure]
REMEMBER! To get you must give! You cant play god only the Devs and GMs can! Therefore your a mere mortal in the world of Yliakum. So no you cant play ironman or Legolass with his mysterious quiver of endless arrows. When you play god the RP fight lasts for hours believe me I spent about 4 hours in a fight until I finally gave up because it was 3 in the morning! It is much more interesting when both players take a hit or two.
And, yes. In real life you don't warn people that you are breaking into their home. But in real life if you are going to break into someone's home, you intend to do so for your own personal benefit and their despair. If you have to tweak the argument to make it fit your statement, then you need to tweak the RP to fit the happiness of everyone involved.
And I'm not saying that one side is completely right in this matter. It could have been dealt with in more satisfying ways for everyone.
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Fair enough Koios.
I honestly didn't want the victims to find out OOCly as I would know they would target me. By watching me and try catch me when I am doing someone else's house instead of making it a fun game and having the mystery of who it is.
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PlaneShift was mentioned as "roleplaying supporting" or "roleplaying related" game.
Never as a "roleplaying enforcing" one.
Laanx => SkyLab => ZeroPing is the server where roleplaying is "allowed and preferred", not "the only exclusively correct form of enjoying the game".
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LOL! This is the most I have heard about rules with guild houses...
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Sounds like Wayward Kingdom will loose their house the next time they get robbed ;)
Gloating and sneering. Are you proud of it? Are your parents proud of you?
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Those pixels don't actually matter... until they are your pixels. Claiming that an unlocked door is an "RP" invitation is also a bit much. Did one of the characters actually roleplay in front of you that they left the guildhouse door open? That would be an RP invitation. Both robbing and raping are violations of the rights of others, and the first crime often preceeds the second IRL. Once again, I hope nobody attempts to use some of the logic prevalent in this thread to justify themselves to the IRL authorities at any time, because you are going to lose the whole thing in court, or to the officer who is reviewing the situation. GMs commenting on this situation in the thread are making the mistake of discussing the situation. Either let the ban stand or clear it, but don't discuss it, is my two cents.
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I didn't notice before, but I seem to agree to almost all things you say lately, verden :P I guess it started with the wipe discussion some time go *puts his signature under what verden says*
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PlaneShift was mentioned as "roleplaying supporting" or "roleplaying related" game.
Never as a "roleplaying enforcing" one.
Laanx => SkyLab => ZeroPing is the server where roleplaying is "allowed and preferred", not "the only exclusively correct form of enjoying the game".
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LOL! This is the most I have heard about rules with guild houses...
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Sounds like Wayward Kingdom will loose their house the next time they get robbed ;)
Gloating and sneering. Are you proud of it? Are your parents proud of you?
From http://www.planeshift.it/policies.html (http://www.planeshift.it/policies.html)
" Roleplay Policy
In Character (IC) means to act, speak and behave like your character will do, not you as a player will do - also known as roleplay. An example of IC (In-Character) speech is: "Hello traveller, did you hear any news about Hydlaa these days?"
Out Of Character (OOC) is when you are speaking with a GM, or when you speak of any real life events/matters. An example can be: "GM, my client is acting strangely, is there a patch to fix it?"
Remember to act in-character as much as possible when talking to others! We are all working towards a Roleplay atmosphere in PlaneShift. OOC should be used only in /tell with a GM, in the help channel or in petitions. All other communications have to be IC. OOC text should be designated with brackets - [ ] - as regular text comes from the mouth of your character, who knows nothing about computers, video games, the internet, or Picasso. Read the Setting for official information about the world your character belongs to - and while your character can certainly come from another "plane" outside of it, don't do something outrageous like try to bring in "roleplay" guns. Keep with the medieval fantasy atmosphere as much as you can.
The game is about roleplay, so part of the rules are to encourage or "enforce" it as smoothly as possible. The freedom of everyone has to be respected as long as it doesn't come in the way of someone else's, with a priority on the RPG style. The name policy, the content of the dialogs and the online activities are concerned with this issue.
The language in-game is English. You may use other languages in private messages like /tell, or in guild chat. This allows all the players in the game to interact with each other regardless of where they are from - and prevents the separation of the community into groups based on nationality."
Sorry LigH you're wrong. But imo that page needs to be corrected.
And by the way, yes, his father was proud of him. He laughed when I told him his son was banned for robbing digital guildhouses. Not even kidding, first reaction was laughter. He then said "oh well, what'd you expect? Plenty more games like that around though isn't there?" (he assumed bans were permanent)
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Well, all the web pages need updates, but it kinda depends on what is meant by enforcing in this this context. You can't force people to roleplay, it takes a bit of skill to do already, even in the simplest manner. But the guidelines on roleplay are enforced in public channels (ideally). There is a distinction there.
The freedom of everyone has to be respected as long as it doesn't come in the way of someone else's, with a priority on the RPG style.
Sen, I'm glad you said almost... that feeling will probably pass if you lay down for a bit. ;)
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@ LigH Yes I am proud of myself and yes my parents are proud of me.
When guildhouses are handed over to guilds/guild leaders they are told to keep their door closed and to only trust who they really trust to invite in. So honestly they broke a rule not me.
Also Ingles next time, don't go off saying I make up stuff AFTER I am banned, maybe you should ask politely before you banned me?
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I agree that the person was wrongfully dealt with, hence my quote of the gaming policy. I was just trying to say that the way the link was presented, I saw it as an attempt to discredit all GMs.
Everyone can have a bad day once in a while. And as we all know, the best solution wasn't to then respond in ways that could potentially be seen as snarly.
would you make that excuse for a cop out of line? a bad day? :thumbdown:
Those pixels don't actually matter... until they are your pixels.
are you serious? it's a game, man.
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Those pixels don't actually matter... until they are your pixels.
are you serious? it's a game, man.
Lol I think he is.
Pixels are just pixels, yipperdy doo! Yes if KIC had a Guild House and it got robbed yes I would be upset, but I would make sure I tell a GM about it and try RP it. As much as what I have read, robbing a guild house has no action other than IC action. Which there was no IC punishment, another question to GMs where has Vakachehk gone?
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;D And this why I don't play this game anymore... Seems like there is some misapplication of the barrier between OOC and IC and the barrier between RP and RL...
"I was RPing." <-- not an acceptable excuse for being a jerk. Doesn't matter if the objects have value to you or not... they weren't yours to mess with in any way regardless... I thought they taught keep your hands to yourself in Kindergarten. ???
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Role play in this game has always operated with OOC negotiation. That is the system. It has its benefits, it has its negatives, but we're used to it. A person who plays a high-risk character, both IC and OOC, should inform and ask their victim for permission to thieve or sever body parts which are gone permanently, as examples.
Vakachehk, it seems to me you are covering your ass. Seems like you you got greedy and wanted more after a lucky job.
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I am not greedy! and I am not covering my ass either. Some people just assume. Assuming I don't like. So if you are going to assume things in front of me, expect me to get rather annoyed.
Uhhh how else would you RP a thief asking the person to rob them is like sending someone a letter saying "hey. Can I rob you next week on Monday" When people 'ask' its a game/RP/event ruiner in my own opinions and that is why I avoided saying anything OOC to the players.
So if I choose a Ultic in Ojaveda and place items in it. So then can people mess around with my objects? Well yes the ultic is on an open map, so was the guildhouse's having their doors unlocked made them open for any player to jump in.
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That's called not being able to tell the difference between OOC and IC and the difference between RPing and griefing. An ultic is public a guildhouse is not.
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If the Guildhouse is unlocked it is public.
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But the name on the guildhouse's sign and lock say differently.
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What Sign post? Guild house 24? look Illysia, my actions were intended to be IC. That is it, get over it.
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All the guildhouses are marked for which guild owns them... And ok fine, the GMs determined that it was still wrong. That's it, get over it. ;) Try not to use logic that applies to you too. :)
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On the issue of GH theivery.
It is a bit of a shitty thing to do no? To justify an action as RP( and thus with good intentions) is a bit shitty as a response to what is most likely an OOC mistake.
So what I mean is:
The character Roberet did not leave the Imperial HQ GH open
The forgetful player forgot to right click on the door and click lock.
May I point out that the Empire has never been Robbed :P. Motto of the day: Right click and lock every trip. :P
(Oh and speaking of recovering Master Keys!!! *coughs*)
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All the guildhouses are marked for which guild owns them... And ok fine, the GMs determined that it was still wrong. That's it, get over it. ;) Try not to use logic that applies to you too. :)
So how is having a name on a sign post making my actions OOC?
Well I disagree with the GMs there were assuming, no real facts to state what they assumed. I really don't care if I have an Ornate Galkard of Seduction or whatever.
@Roberet Goldsmith. Like I said earlier I should of placed books stating a little bit of evidence. My apologisies that I didn't. But still it does not make my actions OOC by not doing so.
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I'd explain Vaka but you are inherently not getting it so nevermind. Not my guild, not my stuff, not my ban. You and the GMs work that out... I'll can tell you now though that you won't be the one to come out on top of that debate. ;)
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Uhhh how else would you RP a thief asking the person to rob them is like sending someone a letter saying "hey. Can I rob you next week on Monday" When people 'ask' its a game/RP/event ruiner in my own opinions and that is why I avoided saying anything OOC to the players.
Two nights ago, my character Tess was attacked. The entire negotiation was handled like this:
(23:05:41) [Tell] XXXXX tells you: [are you OK with Tessra getting any/all of a) robbed, b) assaulted physically, c) killed?]
(23:06:23) [Tell] You tell XXXXX: [yup. im fine with it, as long as there's no raping]
(23:06:42) [Tell] XXXXX tells you: [yeah, that is not XXXXX's style. :p]
About an hour later, the attack happened, and played into a robbery and murder. There was much talk and RP in between the agreement and the attack. After the attack, we even discussed the possibility of a second one, and how my character would justifiably be wary of XXXXX again, and would have to be ambushed or snuck up on for it to work. It was all handled quickly, and without giving too many details to ruin the fun of it.
That being said, I don't really think Vaka should have been banned. I did a few role-plays with Vieg, and he went AFK a lot. It happens. I can understand how it would appear to be disrespectful for someone to not reply, but dropping a banhammer without them even speaking a word in their defense is not cool in my opinion. After all, it wasn't like it was some incredibly time sensitive thing. The banning could have waited at least until there was confirmation from the player that they were even at their computer. Had the GM needed to be elsewhere, messages could have been left for other GMs to handle it, the situation could have been put off to the next night, etc. Personally, I really miss Vieg. He was fun to play with, and my evil alt liked poking at him. :devil:
Perhaps it is because this was my first MMORPG, and I came in with very little in the way of expectations, but I haven't seen some of the problems with a lack of RP that others mention. I can always find an RP if I want one. I run four different characters, most people I see in game know that I'm both Teshia and Tessra, but I also have two "secret" alts that I don't tell many people about and use for when I want a change. I am not ashamed to admit I level the heck out of Teshia. To be able to play her in character, she has to have strong stats and an ability to duel, which means I spend hours in the arena or in Oja or wherever my trainers are. It's something that has to be done to accommodate the PvP role-plays. [Incidentally, can I just say I hate rolling dice with a passion? I've done a bit of confrontational RP now, and if the players are both open-minded and mature about it, they will each take a share of hits, and dodge hits without the need for a die.] But even with all the leveling, I still do a lot of role-play with her. It is possible to do both. Maybe I'm just really lucky to have found the people in game that I found, but I know so many wonderful role-players that I just don't see the lack of RP.
I will say, I find the link posted with the situation involving Lhaa to be somewhat disturbing. I've got a lot of experience admin/modding on forums and one of the biggest rules that tends to go unspoken is that a GM/Mod/Admin should not be doing their job angry. Being in that position is a thankless job. You are always going to get criticized, blamed or vilified. That doesn't mean you should lower your personal expectations and act to fit the things people will say. Maybe there was more to the log than was posted, but using one set of [] to correct a typo certainly does not deserve even a friendly reminder. While the GM in question might have spoken English, we cannot assume that everyone on the game speaks English well enough to be able to read typos. Many people do not. It is only polite to correct typos in a situation where those nearby might have trouble understanding them. I mean, I can read basic Spanish, but if it were poorly typed, I guarantee you I would have trouble understanding what was being said. It might not have been the best response to get in the GMs face about it... but I think the GM might have been a little zealous.
Would it be totally lame to quote the Golden Rule here? :-[ [Oh yeah... and this was just my verbose way of saying I agree with pretty much everything Sarras has said :P ]
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Am I that good at role-playing OOC :P
Vakachehk + Vieg = Same person OOC :)
But yes for an IC punishment I (Vakachehk) should not of gotten banned. But the punishment was not done ICly and the GMs would not allow me to RP it.
But that is the way it is so, I will wait out my ban, I don't know if I want to keep playing or not. I have already got an interest into another MMORPG coming soon.
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I'm not sure you're getting it. Roberet and Irish explained it pretty well. We can subjectively justify your ban because the person (player) who forgot to lock the Guild house might have done so because of OOC reasons (suddenly log off, mother yelling at him to hurry, etc) and you didn't ask before intervening. Maybe in another game you would be right. Here you're not.
It's not a big deal. Just wait out a bit, sigh and get back at it. :D
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uhhh... I am not going to do a massive investigation before hand. I would much rather play it as an RP game in which no one knows OOCly who it is and no one knows ICly who it is. So you really really need to work hard to catch them in the action.
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What's clearly amiss is a juristic document here, and juristic understanding and acting performed by the GMs. Of course there are fights over RL laws as well, but after all, it's clear rules and boundaries. If something like that isn't present, we can see what we witness here:
Player1: "I think ..."
GM1: "Nope, in my opinion..."
Player2: "No, I think that totally..."
GM2: "No seriously, it's exactly as Player1 said, imho."
With clear, juristical documents and understanding we would boil down to:
Player1: "I think ..."
GM1: "Nope, rules say the following: ..."
Player2: "But, I think that..."
GM2: "That's not what the rules say."
I.e., GMs would agree with each other, and Players would have a clear reference to compare their explanation to. There would still be fights, but more about improving the rules than about who is wrong or not.
Clear rules don't mean restriction. They mean control and order.
I am clearly not one to do everything just because a rule says so. But if it is clear I broke a rule, I will except punishment. And I think I'm not the only one who works like this.
What we need, is a clear, unambiguous and complete set of juristic rules that are known and understood by both the GMs and the players.*
I am not saying that to get attention or to pour falka into the fire. This is just my opinion and if GMs want to stop all the fightin' and hatin', I think this is absolute top priority.
Once again: I think partial, contradicting or deprecated rules are counterproductive or even destructive.
Just my 5 cents. Keep on hating o/
* Edit: Note that I'm not saying "agreed upon". But GMs need to enforce the rules nevermind their personal opinion, if they don't they need to be punished as well. This is the only way it can work, imho.
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I agree that the person was wrongfully dealt with, hence my quote of the gaming policy. I was just trying to say that the way the link was presented, I saw it as an attempt to discredit all GMs.
Everyone can have a bad day once in a while. And as we all know, the best solution wasn't to then respond in ways that could potentially be seen as snarly.
would you make that excuse for a cop out of line? a bad day? :thumbdown:
I was going to make my statement clearer, but others (derula & Tessra) have said it better than I could've done already :)
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Those pixels don't actually matter... until they are your pixels.are you serious? it's a game, man.
This is human nature, man. You aren't arguing with me, you are trying to argue with human psychology. Fail.
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The thing about being a GM, is that even if not every one of them mishandles a situation (I've seen both GMs handle things VERY well and VERY not so well), the actions of one will inevitably reflect on how the whole operates. Just like how not every cop is a bad cop, but when there are incidents of cops shooting unarmed citizens, the general feeling toward police changes to very negative to the whole. And GMs have to understand that, and team members as well. If a GM or other team member is quick to pull the trigger on a ban without any discussion, or makes asenine and rude comments to other players, it makes the general populace feel uneasy dealing with the group, and furthermore creates unwillingless to approach GMs with problems should they arise, unless you are fortunate to have one GM you feel comfortable dealing with. Perhaps this is another reason this situation has devolved the way it has. So the two things that have to be resolved is a) player trust among each other, and b) player trust of the GMs.
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Those pixels don't actually matter... until they are your pixels.are you serious? it's a game, man.
This is human nature, man. You aren't arguing with me, you are trying to argue with human psychology. Fail.
you are arguing with my personality, which you clearly don't understand. fail. i think i know myself better than you. and from what it sounds like, you're the kind of wussy who would cry over your character's spilled milk.
(http://dewdude.net/files/2010/03/STFU_and_GTFO.jpg)
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Oh! I'm impressed! Not. Bite me, kid.
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It is human nature to covet one's own property - whether the item is touchable or merely pixels displayed on a screen. To what extent, however, is relative to different people. Nonetheless, to say, summarily, "it is just a pixel, get over it" as a defense for the behavior depicted in the events surrounding these discussions cannot not hold up in my eyes.
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@Irishman: that's because the view that counts is the view of the person with initial ownership. It's like someone coming by and telling you what to do with your stuff in RL... they have no right to input of any sort without your consent... that's why we have laws about stealing and such. :P If it's all same anyway, everyone should just mind their own Pixels and Qs. ;)
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Oh! I'm impressed! Not. Bite me, kid.
get over yourself. not everyone is the same. i'm not like you.
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I agree with Derula on this. I think this is just 'an everyones opinion, topic'. There is no winner, as the rules do not state anything about robbing guild houses, but make it sound more IC if you do. That is the message I got from reading the rules and regulations and also by a dev (Xoel).
Don't go saying. The rules shouldn't have to state that its just pure common-sense, then why have rules?
@Verden Stop flaming and get over yourself, you're being a troll, shush.
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This whole thread is one big flame, I haven't even read through it thoroughly, nonetheless made the effort to drop any comments worth say, because really, there really isn't anything worth to say in this thread. It's probably the most constant back and forth bickering I've ever seen on this forum and that's saying something.
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(http://www.classicalguitarreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/flame-war.jpg)
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(http://www.classicalguitarreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/flame-war.jpg)
Lol protective equipment required.
This whole thread is one big flame, I haven't even read through it thoroughly, nonetheless made the effort to drop any comments worth say, because really, there really isn't anything worth to say in this thread. It's probably the most constant back and forth bickering I've ever seen on this forum and that's saying something.
Yup ;D
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Getting personally rude and offensive when I lose an argument is something that I try to avoid. It basically means you can't win on the merits of your argument, so you have to throw a fit. *yawn*
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This is what I would call "A grand exit" from Planeshift. :thumbdown: