PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Akkaido Kivikar on September 16, 2010, 12:16:53 pm
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Players deserve the right to scrutinize, pass judgement on, and tell GMs who are abusing their position to get out of their face and leave them to play.
Eg: the infamous Lhaa vs. Ingles example. GM warns player for something they did that is not even against the policy, player tells the GM to get out of their face and leave them to play, GM kicks them from the server.
The rule that on the PlaneShift forums, players cannot post any threads about GM actions, resolutions, etc. should be revoked. There are a few reasons to this.
1) The thread can then be used by GMs to inform the community of the exact reasons why the player was banned, and the community can express their opinions, rather than having tensions bottled up and spilling into other threads. By posting the thread, the player consents to all information about them in relation to the GM action/situation being released. Only the player who was on the receiving end of the GM action/resolution may start a thread on the subject.
2) Having such discussions on the PlaneShift forums means it is less likely that it will spill over into the wider internet community. This means less potential players from places like MMORPG.com, LinuxGameTome, etc. will be turned away by rumours of corrupt GMs, unfair bans/kicks, and so on. Isn't that a good thing?
Anyway, flame away. This isn't just to do with my brother's ban, I dealt with that by leaving the "team". This is about me voicing a complaint that players in PlaneShift deserve the above.
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This has been discussed before, good friend.
So I'll give my version of why these things you want won't be implemented:- GM's can kick players and so they will do it for whoever bothers them. It's a power they need to have;
- Players can scrutinize a GM. They can't just post it publicly or except the concerned GM to magically observe what they have concluded;
- Public flaming (rational or not) results in disruptive threads that hardly accomplish anything, since they turn into soap operas because everyone wants attention. Private discussion of GM related issues is a very wise decision from the team. Just be sure to contact with a GM 4 about your trouble.
And that's why players have enough rights as it is.
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Well depending on who you talk with, players are not players, but 'testers'. They are wrong.
Fair enough Lhaa should not of gotten banned. Someone really needs to do some sorting out in that GM team. I really don't like unprofessional, disrespectful, non listening GMs. Their job is to be all of those things. Not to piss players off more and cause disruptive threads.
This sounds like it is pointing towards GMs, when really it is everyone, sorry.
I like those ideas and unless someone takes more of a stand for what is right. Then honestly TA and CotH will take the players and developers from this game. Probably not the GMs though :P
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Lhaa wasn't banned, he/she was kicked by (OMG) In***s for... talking back. Even though he was really in the right given the situation.
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ohh my bad. Kicked from what?
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I think it is more along the side of getting rid of some of the GM's that don't help RP or do things like Ingles did to Lhaa, because that was an obvious sign of power abuse.
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Hi Xoel! Play more. I miss you!
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Someone really needs to do some sorting out in that GM team. I really don't like unprofessional, disrespectful, non listening GMs.
We must fire all and wipe them from the world! They make decisions. And, blasphemy, even ban players who don't agree with the ban!
(And force them to spread the complaint about it all over the forum)
Now, where is that wipe thread?/me goes to vote with activated capslock
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You're forgetting to respect the rule where we don't criticize GM's in the forums. This rule makes total sense, I repeat, because even with the rule we can see people getting all dramatic because a GM has a different opinion from the person and its friends.
It's also comprehensible GM's get annoyed when players bug them with every little thing, or when they disrespect the GM by being arrogant pricks.
I don't know the story you're mentioning and I don't want to know. I just know what my experience tells: I've played this for a long time without having troubles, so have most of the players I get along with around here.
If you don't like how the game is run, complain to the right people (GMs, Vengeance, whatever). If it doesn't work like you want it... *points at the door*
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hehe... Gosh, I knew Xoel would burnout and get as unabashedly grumbly as the rest of us... I just didn't know it would happen so soon... Darn, lost that bet! I gave you a year dude, you could have at least gone about 4 or 5 more months before you cracked. ;) But at least I was right in that you wouldn't go quietly into that goodnight. ;D
Players don't need more rights, the system just needs to be reworked. There was not enough planning and forethought in PS to account for the issues that arise from having so many people constantly in a multiplayer environment with this whole RP thing tossed in. Also there is not enough attention to the need to create a set standard that is player neutral and give everybody the same reference point.
Although I understand Devs some, I have little sympathy for their latest troubles. Sitting on your hands in the middle of the little wars doesn't help and there needs to be a definite vision imposed. And only a creatively dead person thinks that means only allowing one kind of RP... Get the visions of Nazis out of your heads… I swear people must be obsessed with them. It means things like what they started doing. I.e. no vampires, no outside references... things of that nature and no there aren't enough. Otherwise, nobody would have asked how to play a goblin. ;) The boundaries are no longer clear.
Trying to go in all directions is what will keep PS at a mediocre level when it could be epic. Even if they choose to ditch the RP side, the game would drastically improve as at least they would have a more definite focus. Trying to do everything at once and as you can do it is not a very good system. This game is only propped up by Talad's stubbornness, as even willingness to prop it up from what devs and players are left is not enough.
Hat's off to Talad for somehow still pushing his way through the fact the game should have collapsed under its own weight after 18 year of being in development. ;)
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I just know what my experience tells: I've played this for a long time without having troubles, so have most of the players I get along with around here.
Yep.
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just plain and simple: NO
there's absolutely no point in causing more flame threads about stupid things.
if you have an issue with a specific GM for real reasons (read: not "he stole me shovle, give it baaack! *cry*"), you're free to contact a higher up GM, the GM team leader (Hanix) or if that isn't enough some dev or even a director to get things sorted out. just keep one thing in mind: don't start flaming at any point, stay respectful and you're a lot more likely to receive a positive answer.
however, publicly discussing such incidents is just totally unprofessional and unacceptable.
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It's a lost cause, get over it and focus on something else.
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Oh Jacula, your bluntness is always satisfying. <3
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You have the right to stfu ;D
Seriously, a player is a player. They can be replaced just like that.
Its like filling an empty jar with marbles. If they all spill out then just
get more. No big deal, right?
If you dont agree with them and the way that they choose to run the
game then exercise your right to stop playing and find a more enjoyable
game. :sorcerer:
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hehe... Gosh, I knew Xoel would burnout and get as unabashedly grumbly as the rest of us... I just didn't know it would happen so soon... Darn, lost that bet! I gave you a year dude, you could have at least gone about 4 or 5 more months before you cracked. ;) But at least I was right in that you wouldn't go quietly into that goodnight. ;D
1) One day you'll understand why I trolled so hard well before leaving ;)
2) When they banned Vakachehk I decided it was the last straw, sorry it didn't happen 5 months later, blame Ingles and his banhammah itchy hands.
3) I still think I'm right. Any governing body, digital or real, should be scrutinized by their public. Public discussion of these things leads to the public being better informed, it's better PR, yes there will be flamers, but really, anyone with a brain can tell who is right and who is wrong in a situation, and make that decision for themselves. What are the devs/GMs afraid of? Being wrong a few times?
Let me point out the case of Naimon Ulin, got banned for being a griefer, went to MMORPG.com and sobbed about it. Had that happened on our forums, we would have all told him to stfu, he was in the wrong. But because it wasn't discussed/sorted within the PS community on our forums, he went to MMORPG.com and vented, and there were a few players that said "Wow after reading this debate, I don't want to play PlaneShift, ever." That's bad PR, ladies and gentlemen.
Of course, there would be no need to have these changes if the GM team was above reproach, but sadly, I've seen a few cases of bad behaviour from them now.
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just plain and simple: NO
there's absolutely no point in causing more flame threads about stupid things.
if you have an issue with a specific GM for real reasons (read: not "he stole me shovle, give it baaack! *cry*"), you're free to contact a higher up GM, the GM team leader (Hanix) or if that isn't enough some dev or even a director to get things sorted out. just keep one thing in mind: don't start flaming at any point, stay respectful and you're a lot more likely to receive a positive answer.
however, publicly discussing such incidents is just totally unprofessional and unacceptable.
This thread isn't flamed it seems to be calmed until your post :P
Went to HaniX, reply was "blah blah blah, I don't listen because I don't really care."
Also we are not trying to pull PS down but help it, because once TA is known and running stably. I would probably see it larger (art, skills, player count, and stabler) than PS in 5 years time. Remember you have been warned.
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i like this proposition, akkaido \\o//
i hope this won't derail the thread, buuut... ingles needs to be kicked off the gm team. it's obvious why. i'm going to be blunt. ingles has no self-control and doesn't think things over. he's not forgiving. he's not reasonable. he's not afraid to abuse his powers, maybe because he knows he will be protected. he's also not afraid to lie and cause players grief. normally i would never say those things about a gm or any sort of authority, but ingles lost all respect from me. and the community. he doesn't deserve to be on the gm team.
before anyone jumps to conclusions, i'm not angry about lhaa's kick (ban?) or vakachehk's ban. i rarely roleplayed with lhaa and never with vaka. so this is based purely on ingles' actions.
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before anyone jumps to conclusions, i'm not angry about lhaa's kick (ban?) or vakachehk's ban. i rarely roleplayed with lhaa and never with vaka. so this is based purely on ingles' actions.
Hehehe we never have RPed before, just argued and flamed at each other :P
But yes I do agree with Sarras, Ingles does need to be kicked from the GM team and yes, he's not reasonable
Soo true!
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Oh Jacula, your bluntness is always satisfying. <3
You're just asking for Irishman to siggy this you know... I mean, he doesn't even have to rearrange it. ;D
If you dont agree with them and the way that they choose to run the
game then exercise your right to stop playing and find a more enjoyable
game.
Yeah, like the rest of us… Never thought I’d see the day I willingly and contentedly would walk away from PS. Kinda sad really. :(
1) One day you'll understand why I trolled so hard well before leaving ;)
I know exactly why you trolled so hard in the past. First it was because you thought all that kissing of rears you did would keep you in good graces enough to where you could do whatever you want and get away with it. Then, you trolled because you found out otherwise. :P Knowing that you would be inclined to go down this path is why called you out on the brownnosing early on. ;)
Let me point out the case of Naimon Ulin, got banned for being a griefer, went to MMORPG.com and sobbed about it. Had that happened on our forums, we would have all told him to stfu, he was in the wrong. But because it wasn't discussed/sorted within the PS community on our forums, he went to MMORPG.com and vented, and there were a few players that said "Wow after reading this debate, I don't want to play PlaneShift, ever." That's bad PR, ladies and gentlemen.
There’s nothing new about that… The difference these days is that the community doesn’t sparkle enough to outshine the negativity any more. Say and think what you want of the past players, but in the past, the game used to get really good reviews on the community in game.
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1) One day you'll understand why I trolled so hard well before leaving ;)
I know exactly why you trolled so hard in the past. First it was because you thought all that kissing of rears you did would keep you in good graces enough to where you could do whatever you want and get away with it. Then, you trolled because you found out otherwise. :P Knowing that you would be inclined to go down this path is why called you out on the brownnosing early on. ;)
Nope, still not got it.
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Yo, this forum is not the place to critique a specific GM in such a way. You do not have to like a GM - you do not have to respect them - yet you have to feign it, and you have to respect this forum and the rules which pertain - or you will be banned.
And I'm telling you this before people who are ticked off and actually have power step in. I imagine you care about these accounts and using this forum or why would you continue to stay, eh? So hear my words and use your sense.
EDIT: None of what I said implies I do not respect the GM Team. Stop looking for hidden meaning people. :P
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The first rule in any RPG Game World is that a GM has the last word on anything.
Such threads as these are blatantly breaking this forum's Rules of Conduct; with regards to GMs.
Moderators, please, lock them down!
They are not worth the electrons which convey them and act only as flies to honey to bitter out of game oldbies.
- Nova
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This is the Complaints Department we are complaining, don't like it then leave.
The first rule in any RPG Game World is that a GM has the last word on anything.
No they don't. In Planeshift it would be HaniX then Talad.
I have told HaniX my complaint about Ingles and all he said was he backs him. Not good enough in my own opinion, and so here is where I come.
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@Geoni: See ... I told you he wouldn't even have to rearrange it. ;D
@Irishman: If he wants to get his account banned or something it's his business. If I still cared about PS's PR I'd say the biggest problem is that it can give false impressions to those that haven't experienced the game themselves. However, I figure it will work itself out. People will either run in fear or jump in and play. All things will work itself out over time... er... most anyway. Just as a general note though, it doesn't matter right or wrong, rules or no rules at this point. I do believe that a forum is just the absolute wrong place for any kind of serious discussion.
@Novacadian: I know you're just sore because you have a gift of looking like a pretentious git when oldbies come around, but there's no need to get your panties in a knot. I'm sure the mods are aware of the thread by now and are already deciding what to do. ;D
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but there's no need to get your panties in a knot.
;D Love that saying!
In my own opinion people can come on here and state all they like, after talking with a GM about the issue. That was done here.
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Your license to cry has been refuted. You must log off and find a dark corner now.
Warning: Keep away from cutting objects, high places and pills.
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How did this turn out to be like the other thread.
:offtopic:
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This is the Complaints Department we are complaining, don't like it then leave.
+1
Nerver thought I'de give Vakachehk a point for anything ... ::|
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i hope this won't derail the thread, buuut... ingles needs to be kicked off the gm team. it's obvious why. i'm going to be blunt. ingles has no self-control and doesn't think things over. he's not forgiving. he's not reasonable. he's not afraid to abuse his powers, maybe because he knows he will be protected. he's also not afraid to lie and cause players grief. normally i would never say those things about a gm or any sort of authority, but ingles lost all respect from me. and the community. he doesn't deserve to be on the gm team.
Ingles, perhaps its time to tell your bosom buddy Janner, or vice versa, to create a new GM account now?
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1) One day you'll understand why I trolled so hard well before leaving ;)
I know exactly why you trolled so hard in the past. First it was because you thought all that kissing of rears you did would keep you in good graces enough to where you could do whatever you want and get away with it. Then, you trolled because you found out otherwise. :P Knowing that you would be inclined to go down this path is why called you out on the brownnosing early on. ;)
Nope, still not got it.
First sucking up to Talad to be accepted as a prospect, followed by continuous brown-nosing due to the NDA although already disliking the project, finally ranting as predicted, and now starting over at that other place - was honestly amused having read this (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/30/view/forums/post/3804497):
Oh UtMoon, how I loathe, hate and absolutely adore you at the same time ;)
See you on CotH!xD
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1) The sucking up is referring to actions after being accepted as a prospect. ;)
2) Being a devil's advocate doesn't leave hickeys. :detective: All lot of times you weren't really advocating you were just being an arrogant pest in IRC. People will accept you being fully convinced of the greatness and success of the project. People were less forgiving of the "I can do anything I want because I have Talad's backing" attitude. You always made sure to praise, at every opportunity, certain people and were rude to everyone else... That is the "brown nosing" of which I speak. Let us just remember this log here (http://pastebin.com/rKBKdi9s) for an example of one of your finer moments(although not the worst example, I admit). it's this behavior that made the treatment of devs stand out as brown nosing. You never talked like this if you knew one of them was watching.
Also, to say you to got what you want, you seem to sound like a lot of the dissatisfied oldbies that lurk around... although with more trolling. Worse yet, I'm also pretty sure that you used to deny all possibility of ever getting to this point. You even criticized Lhaa for not just leaving but making multiple accounts just to troll and complain. In your own words, and I quote, "He makes an ass of himself just for being around." It was even quoted along with my response in the QDB here (http://qdb.alphasys.nl/?942). I truly wish I could link to the logs of that discussion but I lost them when my computer went down. :( C'est la vie.
For a fact there are plenty of things to complain about with this project. But I'm afraid I have to point this stuff out considering the big talk out of you from before you had your falling out with PS. It was all completely unnecessary.
4) Not really as I avoided thinking I was somebody more special than the rest of the player base 'cause I worked with the Devs. ;) I contributed for a long time and at times was aware of things that devs worked on that were still hush hush for the general playerbase. However, I didn't go parading this around like you liked to do.
My path to trying to support what I thought were the ideals of the game was this:
- trying to just start up little RPs
- trying to form continuous RPs
- trying to start RPs for others
- trying to participate in events
- trying to hold events
- trying to help newbies acclimate
- trying to contribute to in game resources
- trying to support the devs
- trying to run a player area with a service orientation
- trying to form a safe, neutral ground for all RPer levels to comfortably RP in
- trying to keep two player areas running to preserve player opportunities and standardized RP environment
- trying an RP stimulus plan that showed that RP was limited to the models and fully implemented mechanics in game, but that some research and imagination could go a long way.
- trying to help support new PS team initiatives for striking up new opportunities
- trying to explain to Talad the need to not focus on bells and whistles but on RP to shore up the game
- forming a group to aid the team by working out solutions to problems that the team didn't have time to do.
- getting tired of being stretched entirely too thin and getting blown off if I wasn't nodding my head and running off make another faltering plan work
- Total Burnout....
- leaving the game with a final outline of what was wrong with the game and how to fix it.
Despite the burnout and the initial bitterness. I think I've been pretty reasonable about it. I make criticisms but rarely outright troll. And although I think the game is being run into the ground due to hardheadedness and incompetence, I don't actually hate the game or wish that the project would fail. If the people directing the game got the game into better shape, I would give due respect but I find that more than unlikely...
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That would apply if you didn't make a rear end of yourself period when people who could boot you were around. you weren't that careful. ;)
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I wish I could disagree with this but I can't.... :-[
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First thing, I talked to Xoel twice on IRC and this is probably the first time I've ever agreed with Illysia
Second, one of PlaneShift's biggest problems has always been complete division between GMs/Devs and players (On that note, another problem was Devs suddenly becoming GMs just because they were Devs, kind of belittles the GMs). As with almost any "team" they should show a united front, I'm completely alright with that. But that doesn't mean they should constantly (and I do mean constantly) be ignoring player complaints about GMs. And the GM lead has always been too close to the team. It is a problem. The GM leader should be a leader in every respect, and that includes being brave enough to make a few GMs like him less in order to stand up for the players and deal with poor GMing.
But the Devs/GMs have always been something of a cliq withing PlaneShift (and many other games). I don't see this changing.
Also, players need to realize that it's okay to speak out against GMs and Devs. You should definitely do it in the correct channels (if said channels are at all useful and responsive) but, it's not like you are betraying the game by calling out a GM on his or her mistake. If anything you are helping the game. PS isn't perfect, neither are her GMs or Devs.
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Yup.
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Second, one of PlaneShift's biggest problems has always been complete division between GMs/Devs and players (On that note, another problem was Devs suddenly becoming GMs just because they were Devs, kind of belittles the GMs). As with almost any "team" they should show a united front, I'm completely alright with that.
Devs don't just become GMs like that - especially not just because they're devs. if you're a dev and want to join the GM team as well, you still have to go through the very same process as everyone else...
also honestly... GMs and Devs aren't the same. their areas of work are different in so many ways and they're really anything else than one "clique" ;)
But that doesn't mean they should constantly (and I do mean constantly) be ignoring player complaints about GMs.
again something I cannot confirm. I barerly had issues with GMs in the past, but if I had any, it always got sorted out without big issues and drama on all kinds of platforms. (that's during the 3 years playing just normally as I still do *doesn't want to have a special account on a server he plays on*)
Also, players need to realize that it's okay to speak out against GMs and Devs. You should definitely do it in the correct channels (if said channels are at all useful and responsive) but, it's not like you are betraying the game by calling out a GM on his or her mistake. If anything you are helping the game. PS isn't perfect, neither are her GMs or Devs.
perfectly agreed upon. maybe that's because I never had as much drama... you just have to know *where* and *how* to complain.
as pretty much everywhere, you won't get much attention except a kick/ban with a "xyz is stupid!", "I'm always right!!1111", "unban me!11" (figuratively speaking and exaggerating, but I suppose you get the point)
Criticise a dev (I can think of one big name starting with T) and BAM! Community ban! Most of them aren't too bad, but criticise the leader in ANY way and you have no chance of retaining your forum name, game account, or IRC access.
can't agree on that, I do it more than often enough :P
Complaining about a GM's conduct to higher-ups gets NOTHING done. In fact, arguing with a GM is cause for a (game client) ban. There is a specific rule on this forum against speaking out against GMs.
arguing isn't, but note *arguing*. and it does get something done from personal experience from the past (see above)
as for the rule... I guess it's been said often enough why this perfectly makes sense, just try to read it and stop acting dumb.
The devs have a specific rule preventing them from speaking out against each other around players (and doing so behind closed doors gets you thrown through the doors). You're free to complain about changes to the game made by devs, that's about it. If you call anyone out here on their mistakes they get defensive, on both sides of the community.
I really don't know where you got that from, there's absolutely no such rule.
just my 2 cents,
RlyDontKnow
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Xoel, the ironic things you say never cease to amuse me.
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I'm right here ladies...right here. For all you sexxaaay laddaaaayyys.
who would be interested in a fat menki?
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I'm right here ladies...right here. For all you sexxaaay laddaaaayyys.
who would be interested in a fat menki?
For some reason people think Kull is fat because he "hoists" himself onto his rivnak. If he were, he would still be a seductive furball. ;D
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I hope everyone's listening carefully when Xoel's dropping them ultimate wisdoms here! \\o//
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As talad said in an interview many moons ago, he had that license to avoid the problems other open souce projects have faced. The problem in this regard is trying to run an open source, volunteer based project like a commercial one.
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The title of this thread still gives me the giggles. This is an open source game that is in alpha. Do you think they will really give players more rights than the little they have? What it really ends up being is competence of RP [many players] vs. incompetence of RP [much of PS' team]
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yes he can change license but that goes only for new code. if you knew gpl you would know you can fork from the last gpled version (just look at oracle who is trying to close everything from sun: they just get the project forked) Actually it's the normality of an organization owning the gpl code or it's a mess. FSF, Oracle (sun), and so on...
It's quite fair that you can't speak about other members private life... who gives you the right ?
Plus i see you still don't respect other people who will get in trouble thanks to you.
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/topic Forum users need more ignore functions
Phew, I think with that Im amoung the top 5 constructive posts in this thread :thumbup:
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It's quite fair that you can't speak about other members private life... who gives you the right ?
Plus i see you still don't respect other people who will get in trouble thanks to you.
I never am talking about their "private lives"... what they do that doesn't have a direct effect on the PS community is none of the community's business. Talad's wikipedia trolling and edits does effect the community as he is making a bad name for PS by doing these things (as they know he is the director of the project), and the logs from the channel are from a public conversation and not in any way private.
"other people who will get in trouble thanks to you" <-- please tell me what you mean here, the only people who should get in trouble thanks to my posts here is me, all quotes and material were dug up by myself (I have a copy of the NDA). Though it would be nice if Talad was moved into a more...development role and wasn't given control of all the banhammers. So he can, as he says himself, do as the community wants and focus on development.
i didn't say you did but: "You can't talk about fellow devs." (quote from you) is precisely this.
As for the second one this trolling will only worsen the situation of people who have nothing to do with this and would prefer to be left alone from this politics. At the end you will probably lose from this (as it's already happening)
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I hope everyone's listening carefully when Xoel's dropping them ultimate wisdoms here! \\o//
With an IQ of 145, everybody should listen to it.
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...places like MMORPG.com, LinuxGameTome, etc.
If players are mistreated, then they should seek more independent (from this game) places on the internet to post about their experiences. According to many complaints here, it sounds like this is just the case.