PlaneShift
Support => Forum and Website Discussions => Topic started by: neko kyouran on November 18, 2010, 09:11:53 pm
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Hello everyone,
My superiors have asked that I ask you all to stay on topic when you reply to posts. You may ask yourself, what is an off topic post. Well, I was given this thread http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=38419.0 as an example of what off topic posts are.
Please review this thread and let me know if you have any questions and I will try to answer them as best I can.
From this point forward, I have been instructed to move threads, such as the example listed above has been moved, to the complaint forum section.
If you wish to express your opinion on this new decision, please feel free to reply here, or PM the administration team directly, and I'm sure they'll be glad to provide further feedback to you.
Thanks, from your friendly fur-ball/lead moderator.
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Nova cheers wildly at the decision \\o//
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Sometimes I wish I was an admin. so I can ban everyone who ruined my topic.
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Haha
But yes...I have a question. What happens if the thread goes off topic but not in a complaining way?
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Darn those troublemakers! The life of a troublemaker is (something bad...)!!!
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Now Aiwe, you know good and well that the only posts that this thread is actually referring to is the complaining about how the game is needlessly not going well or how the administration of the project is not well suited to a project of this type. I just wish things were written as they are actually meant, rather than couched in other words. ;) Can I make a new complaint thread about that or is that on topic for here? Our forum mods shouldn't be asked to make overly general posts about that which isn't meant by the general meaning of the words used in said posts.
...or PM the administration team directly, and I'm sure they'll be glad to provide further feedback to you.
I'll just leave this one alone as this is just shooting fish in a barrel for starting off topic discussions on the topics that are actually meant when the words "offtopic posts" are used.
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Sounds like a perfect decision to me.
Also... This post of her... It seems to fit the description of off-topicness (since it matches so well what is in the linked topic.) I think there should be some kind of filter that would direct all her posts to the Complaints Department.
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You are such a little instigator Sanwa. ;D Be good and don't provide "offtopic argument" bait in a topic specifically asking for an end to it.
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Oooooooooh, I bet chu' won't hit 'im! :woot:
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???
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Different boards are managed differently.
I am already a "Super Moderator" in a quite important german video board (part of the Doom9 network). We never had such a degree of trolling there, and we moderators would never let so much trolling develop unmoderated. Therefore I was quite surprised how relaxed this board was managed until now.
With vBulletin 4, we have a quite mighty tool to manage issues quickly: Cutting out off-topic replies (at our board e.g. discussions in the "News" area which is reserved for notifying about current versions only); warning a user who misbehaves and violates board rules with an easy-to-use interface; automatic banning for a limited time when warn points pass a threshold; putting users on a global ignore list so they won't know that noone will see their posts...
It is the responsibility of the moderators to keep the board in a state the administration enjoys. Details of the expected state may differ from board to board. I, personally, would like to see more efforts in "trimming the lawn"; not down to a golf green ... but it doesn't need to look like fallow and rank growth either.
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Finally. I'm tired of sorting through the bickering in search for the topic of a thread. ;)
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Usually the topic comes in the beginning, then someone answers the topic (yes... answers. Usually the reason the bickering can start is because the thread actually didn't require more than a little statement to answer the topic and there's still a whole thread there), then the side points come out, those turn into bickering and then the only people that should bother reading any more are the people directly involved in the argument or those that want to become involved... It's rather simple actually. ;) Why keep reading when you know the topic has gotten to the bickering stage?
And of course it's not as bad there LigH, the people there aren't as passionate about the topic. Anywhere you have MMOs though, stuff like this can come up. However, even I have to admit to being surprised at how much was allowed to slide. But I guess Neko can't chase after every battle when they crop up so often.
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But I guess Neko can't chase after every battle when they crop up so often.
It should be a simple matter of checking your Show the last posts of this person each day.
- Nova
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My questions was kind of serious though...Is this about only moving complains to the correct board or to do something about off-topic posts like advertising own projects in every thread, littering RP threads or the usual "It's not broken...go and play on IRC" answers to complains also?
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Reasons for off-topic replies are quite different (a large range between an accident, a mistake ... to ignorance and trolling on purpose).
Reactions need to be just as different. An accidental reply in the wrong thread, or a reply which should have become a new thread instead, do not need to lead to a warning or ban. But just watching threads being kidnapped without any sign of moderation is "bad public relation".
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My questions was kind of serious though...Is this about only moving complains to the correct board or to do something about off-topic posts like advertising own projects in every thread, littering RP threads or the usual "It's not broken...go and play on IRC" answers to complains also?
The example thread (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=38419.0) pointed to, at the top of the this thread, seems to make it more than clear the purpose of the new policy and what it has been put in place to fix.
- Nova
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Didn't know you are a moderator now....the question was for them. Not really interested in what you think it means.
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Didn't know you are a moderator now....
The example thread (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=38419.0) was placed there by the moderator, not me.
- Nova
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Illysia's right, usually we start bickering when the thread's dead already. Not what happened in one of the threads, but that was an isolated happening. As far as the "I Need Help" thread is concerned, Catlemur got his response multiplied by 10 in the first 10 minutes. Also, requesting for new Quests should be a kind of wish...
I think that if you input some actual on-topic information, then the post isn't actually off-topic. It just has additional info. Like... Let's say... Advertising the Dark Empire in the middle of this post, which is great since it's an awesome organization.
Plus I believe it's all about moderation as in the "quality of being moderated." Things aren't black and white, they're less or more grey. If someone's abusing (like it did happen in the "I Need Help..." thread, even though it had expired its usefulness), there should be intervention as far as moderating is concerned. If it's just punctual, it's not really a problem. Aiwendil mate, chill.
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I say that if you are going to cut down on the bickering that you should start at the beginning and be sure to get the people that intentionally try to provoke malcontents as well. It is perfectly possible to disagree, discuss the disagreement at length, and not have a bickerfest. The bickering usually starts when personal attacks are made by the party that is less interested in arguing a point (but rather are just trying to win an argument) runs out of points to make and then decides that personal attacks somehow prove their point rather than make them look like a comparable problem. I know for a fact it can work as I did it all the time with Lhaa in the past, and even now, and the disagreements never turned into the mess that come when most people argue with Lhaa.
If you are going to apply the rules... just apply them evenly. Let people argue but stop it once it gets personal and then people are less likely to have a run away argument.
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I say that if you are going to cut down on the bickering that you should start at the beginning and be sure to get the people that intentionally try to provoke malcontents as well. It is perfectly possible to disagree, discuss the disagreement at length, and not have a bickerfest. The bickering usually starts when personal attacks are made by the party that is less interested in arguing a point (but rather are just trying to win an argument) runs out of points to make and then decides that personal attacks somehow prove their point rather than make them look like a comparable problem. I know for a fact it can work as I did it all the time with Lhaa in the past, and even now, and the disagreements never turned into the mess that come when most people argue with Lhaa.
If you are going to apply the rules... just apply them evenly. Let people argue but stop it once it gets personal and then people are less likely to have a run away argument.
try to read again what this thread is about. it's *far* before personal attacks, it's just dragging threads all the way off (in this case already the first reply) without any real reason. if someone states a simple question, go and answer it. but not "here's one sentence answer, but: everything sucks, booohooo, *cry*"(intentionally exaggerated, don't take it personal/serious aiw :P) starting a flame war without any reason at all. *if* you want to discuss such things, go and make a thread about it. but wait... it's already been discussed over and over and over and over and ... so of course such a thread would get locked with a link to the very same one you had yesterday/last week/whatever. so instead of spreading you pointless cries all over the place, keep them where they belong.
it's not an argument at all if you keep repeating the same old stuff every other day just cause you failed to convince someone.
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Once again you prove why the "pointless arguments" persist... try unpluging your ears and maybe you won't have so many instances of the same complaint as many iterations come from trying to get through thick skulls and shut ears. First, people are convinced when these things happen, the problem is that often the target audience persists in th... you know what nevermind Rly as answering you would start another back and forth and I am trying to be nice about this as Neko did ask nicely.
Long story short, you keep setting off the very wildfires you complain about. You got a problem with them? Then take your own advice and change your attitude. Your attitude creates more likelihood that someone will get offended and start complaining. Try not contributing to the problem for once.
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You're hopeless, naggity nag.
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My questions was kind of serious though...Is this about only moving complains to the correct board or to do something about off-topic posts like advertising own projects in every thread, littering RP threads or the usual "It's not broken...go and play on IRC" answers to complains also?
if you feel a thread should have a closer look taken at it due to a series of posts in it that diverge too far from the topic of the thread, poke a mod or admin and we'll determine the best course of action required.
:)
You're hopeless, naggity nag.
personal insults are not needed. please refrain from posting them.
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You're hopeless, naggity nag.
Case in point. Trolls may not back down but people like sangwa pour on the fuel and then try to hide their hand as being partly responsible for the messes made. Thanks for commenting on the needlessness of that too Neko.
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I'll refrain from what you consider personal insults, since it harms so many sensibilities. But let it be known that my work will be missed.
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Not really...
Respect the opinions of others.
Often arguments can’t be won, so if you have a contrasting opinion, please state it simply and clearly. If necessary, agree to disagree with others who may have differing opinions. When discussions turn to long, hostile arguments, the thread will be closed or removed. Sometimes people can write something that you may find offensive, but before launching into a public condemnation, please consider that the person may not have intended to cause offense. It is very easy to misinterpret a post on forums. There is absolutely no need to resort to insults. Respect others' views even if you disagree with them.
Forum rules... apply to defenders of the game as well. :thumbup:
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(http://www.homebirth.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Gadsden-Flag-i-will-not-comply-300x199.jpg)
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I'll certainly miss it Illysia. And let me tell you I find it insulting that you consider me no one... It's specially so hard to take when you're obviously tempting me into trolling. So hard to take...
I kid you all. Just relax and enjoy the show. Why should we get all worried about what goes into complaints and what is kept or deleted? Why can't you moderators just do it and warn the people involved privately? It'd cause a lot less noise.
As far as moderators are deleting and moving stuff, no one should need to worry. If something is deleted in a thread, everyone gets the idea. Plus, theirs is the rule, whether we agree or not. Like they're actually the ones who interpret who is condemning a person who was just expressing a short, resume of his opinion and who was insulting.
And you know what America? I trust you guys. And I shall comply. After this post, that is.
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What timing! The Yule Tide spirit seems to have settled on this thread. Makes me all teary. ;)
Merry Christmas one and all! (http://realreads.co.uk/dickens/titles/)
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It's not that I consider you no one... just no one whos opinion I can take seriously... there is a difference. And if this is Yuletide spirit, then I guess they were right about commercialism changing things. ;D
Neko, dear... this is the point at which the bickering would usually start in other threads. i.e. once the thread has run its course. Since nobody else has seen fit to say it, I will... this is the point when it's usually good to cut the thread off. ;)
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Illysia's idea for more use of lock on threads seems a good one; for server resources on searches alone. :thumbup:
- Nova
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if you feel a thread should have a closer look taken at it due to a series of posts in it that diverge too far from the topic of the thread, poke a mod or admin and we'll determine the best course of action required.
/me points neko to this thread here.
People start bickering. This thread seems to be dying already.
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My questions was kind of serious though...Is this about only moving complains to the correct board or to do something about off-topic posts like advertising own projects in every thread, littering RP threads or the usual "It's not broken...go and play on IRC" answers to complains also?
if you feel a thread should have a closer look taken at it due to a series of posts in it that diverge too far from the topic of the thread, poke a mod or admin and we'll determine the best course of action required.
:)
Thanks...more or less all I wanted to know.
Illysia's right, usually we start bickering when the thread's dead already. Not what happened in one of the threads, but that was an isolated happening. As far as the "I Need Help" thread is concerned, Catlemur got his response multiplied by 10 in the first 10 minutes. Also, requesting for new Quests should be a kind of wish...
I think that if you input some actual on-topic information, then the post isn't actually off-topic. It just has additional info. Like... Let's say... Advertising the Dark Empire in the middle of this post, which is great since it's an awesome organization.
Plus I believe it's all about moderation as in the "quality of being moderated." Things aren't black and white, they're less or more grey. If someone's abusing (like it did happen in the "I Need Help..." thread, even though it had expired its usefulness), there should be intervention as far as moderating is concerned. If it's just punctual, it's not really a problem. Aiwendil mate, chill.
??? - ???. Ahm...I'm not chilled? Sorry...not native english but the
Haha
But yes...I have a question. What happens if the thread goes off topic but not in a complaining way?
and the
My questions was kind of serious though...Is this about only moving complains to the correct board or to do something about off-topic posts like advertising own projects in every thread, littering RP threads or the usual "It's not broken...go and play on IRC" answers to complains also?
didn't appear in any way offensive for me. So if they can be read offensive I am sorry (this time)...wasn't my intention. The thread is called "offtopic posts"..and I just wanted to know if a special kind of off-topic posts are meant or if it's about off-topic in general...not even judge on that. I see that the reply to novacadian wasn't exactly nice...but still think it also wasn't really offensive as all I wanted to say there is that he can't answer my question. So in the end...I could be only not "chilled" if this would mean something to me..what isn't really the case.
if someone states a simple question, go and answer it. but not "here's one sentence answer, but: everything sucks, booohooo, *cry*"(intentionally exaggerated, don't take it personal/serious aiw :P)
Hehe..not taken personal at all.
And, lets all be nice to Sangwa...sure, his posts might still be able to improve a bit but they are already far better than in the past (http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4485/screenshot3g.png).
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Aiwendil, I don't think anyone found your post offensive. They've found mine to be such though... And I've got an idea why.
When I believe people are being something, I promptly warn them. When it gets me into trouble, I promptly accept the punishment. I know for a fact I have limitations and I've been learning since day one and since the day I've made that post you've quoted so nicely. It is good that you show an example of how people can evolve. Because there are others who seem that go through stalemate phases, either positive or negative, but who never show progress within each of those. They're either repetitively promoting the same change, or repetitively promoting the lack of it.
I know for a fact that my posts sometimes lack tact. And I admit it's because it's fun to push some people around. They aren't more offensive than some of what others type. They just hit where it's soft. It's not my fault if one can't learn and that some arguments get people all frustrated, though it sure is my fault I enjoy prying that frustration for some more fun.
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It is good that you show an example of how people can evolve. Because there are others who seem that go through stalemate phases, either positive or negative, but who never show progress within each of those. They're either repetitively promoting the same change, or repetitively promoting the lack of it.
A. What progress are you talking about?
B. If it's about what I think it is about, then can you really say that promoting a certain change isn't pushing for progress?
C. Are you throwing your own opinion on what the evolution of a player is onto the table?
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A. I've progressed from pointlessly repeating the same proposals for change to pointing towards new alternatives in both behavior and game play. I've also progressed from being frustrated with the game to finding new ways of getting what I want done across.
B. Promoting the same thing endlessly in the same way is redundant and annoying. It's not pushing for effort if you've been told what people don't like about your proposal 10 times and at the 10th time you still repeat what you just said because you blame it's lack of accomplishment on someone else. I change my modus operandi often because I feel it's usually my fault when I can't explain to people what I think. Or I give up when I find out I'm wrong.
C. I didn't mention anything about what my opinion of the evolution of a player was. I was merely explaining the part of mine which I thought relevant for this issue.
Anyways, I believe discussions like this one that just took place are off-topic. To me, part of the reason they persist is because not everyone is working for the same goal. The purpose of this Forum is to discuss PlaneShift related stuff, in order to improve the game. And there are some people here who aren't here for the game, but instead they stick around to prove some point of view which has been analyzed and found wanting... creating unnecessary noise between themselves, some developers and some other lurkers.
I certainly add to the noise by not moving on from asking these people to move on. But moderation had been giving us some space lately and I felt that if there was going to be noise, at least I'd have fun with it. Alas, I learned once more: It makes sense to have things clean and in their rightful place and there's a report button for something.
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You have to understand that when something is being constantly changed, there will be constant arguing. Some people are more consistent with their arguments than others, and some are more flexible with what is being done to the game than others. Some stick around to complain more than others, some lurk more often than others. Some protect the game they love playing more than others. Some quit the team and others do not. With all of these somes, how can there not be arguing on the forum?
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My feeling is that the greatest emotion seems to evolve around issues; which require input from those that can make things happen to the software; brought forward most times by those which do not have the skills required to resolve the issue.
There is little doubt in my mind that someone like Aiwendil could get the basic Open Source pieces of PS compiled and installed on a server. Hosting for early development system resources could probably be found at about $10US/month. If such a fork of the Open Source pieces put out the word that they intended to keep everything in their development under the GNU license; then you should see code monkeys and young graphics artists coming from far and wide. So there should be no beef here; although the frustration is understandable.
If that effort cannot be made to go the distance it would take to launch a fork, then one should show nothing but respect for those which give of their own time to make the sand castles of this play ground we call PlaneShift.
- Nova
[Edit : spelling ]
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Sorry Neko... I tried...
There is always argument everywhere due in fact to the phenomena that having more than one person around can cause friction and thus arguments. The problem is not arguments or even repetitive arguments (as no one forces you to read a thing here). Also keep in mind that people who complain about repetitive arguments and fuss about them also start repetitive arguments, since no complaint is really that new here, and thus prove why there are repetitive arguments (because the problem didn't go away. ;) ) and also prove that they aren't that sensitive to repetitive arguments... only ones they didn't get invited into. ;D
The actual problem is the bickering and back biting. Some people (not necessarily talking about the PS team) here are too weak to tolerate any disagreement as they can't stand for a point unless they have full support behind them, and they certainly can't back up their position with anything better than an "I feel ... therefore you have to shut up now" statement. If they would stop striking out in childish ways every time time the argument doesn't go their way then there would actually be a decrease in the amount of useless bickering. The arugment would be able to just stay and argument. Not all debate is a bad thing.
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just follow a simple rule i use when i make posts, debate the issue, not the person.
and if you've stated your view point, and they still don't agree, posting it over and over again won't help, so don't.
as far as moderation goes, i'm a pretty hands off type of person. i'd rather like it if threads just worked out themselves. unfortunately, as i originally said in the op, i'll be having to be a bit more hands on.
/shrug
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and if you've stated your view point, and they still don't agree, posting it over and over again won't help, so don't.
The point is rarely to get the other side to agree... if that could be done then it is highly unlikely there would be two sides on the issue. Best case scenario, the objective is just to get the other side to acknowledge the opposite side's stance without being dismissed. Otherwise, people would just state their point and neither side would start up with reasons why they have the viewpoint they have.
It think it is better just to be able to accept that the other side views the matter differently. Especially since around here there are people that will argue points, that they may or may not actually believe in, just because they like to argue. 'Tis the nature of a forum that there will be more than just a statement on a topic regardless of reception of said statement.
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I believe there are only about 7 persons who make the forum an increasingly useless place.
Some of them are only there to troll, some originally wanted to help, but are now effectively hardly better than those who only troll. And often they (and the rest of the maybe 7) have nothing better to do than trying to convince everyone of their rightness with replying to another over and again.
/me is not interested in reading personal "No, Im right"-wars
If you don't add a point that is worth reading for everyone, learn to stop posting and send a personal message.
Sen