PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Raikana on December 10, 2010, 04:59:21 am
-
First of all: I'm upset.
Second: i don't care if you are going to insult me for what i'll say!
The paper came to it's end.... and Raikana too.
Why? Because of some ignorant rules, and because of some ignorant masters.
My only purpose was to make a good paper and to help RP. For that, i needed to be free to publish the IC content my character see, and hear. BUT.... no.
Do you know the rule that says: "If someone come to you OOC and say [don't publish this] you MUST not publish, or you get banned?"
It's true. This rule exists to preserve RP, but CANNOT BE APPLIED TO A NEWSPAPER! God....use your brain....please....HOW CAN YOU APPLY THIS TO A NEWSPAPER? Is simply stupid. And crazy. :@#\ If you apply this rule to the paper, the paper will become RIDICULOUS. Can you immagine? All the people can come and ORDER me to don't publish this and that....is sufficient to use brackets. THATS ENORMOUSLY STUPID.
I whished that masters would allow the paper to be free.... but no. :-X
I talked to the people and many seem to be agree. "Oh... if someone is not agree you should not publish". And there it goes the free press. And there it goes the independence.
So i deleted my account. I will NOT wait to be banned. I ban myself.
Now i'm very sad for all the time i loss, but that time will not come back to me. Its gone.
I though this was a place that worth my work.... well.... i can say the people worth it but the masters NO. They are too small minded, too strict on their ridiculous rules, that they can't understand the reality of the things. THAT RULE CANNOT BE APPLIED TO A NEWSPAPER. IT KILLS INFORMATION. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND? .... of course not. That's the problem. :thumbdown:
Now. I would like to say goodbye to: Cirerey, Urriro, Pontifer, Avilay, Leraider, Mekora, Roled, Malunga, Famiel, Sulaika, Dannae, Dramborleg, Boeven, Poez, Cinade, Xitop, Tuathanach, Yahh, Perlan, Ketta, Sanrai, Glaciusor, Saili, Jilata, Jelora, Kisoji, Gartheiz, Geceni, Lilura, Muradin, Eriton, Kaynna, Vilthis (ops...Broken Lance :D), Hangatyr, Medillo, Realito and all the people that deserve my respect, all the friends that supported my work. If i forget some friend please forgive me. I love you all!
Now you will ask: Why you don't delete this thread too? Because i want the people to KNOW why i'm going away.
PS: Mishka has nothing to do with this. If you think this is about mishka you don't understand the real meaning of this.
-
I'm sorry I didn't get part of your speech. But I am sad you go :'( you were such a good writer! I actually liked your papers! If you quit because of some GM rule that you can't publish a newspaper then that's just ridiculous....But don't worry I don't think you are the only one that quit because of the ridiculously strict rules of the GM's. Though i'm not sure if you are actually tlking about GM's 0.0 .
-
Oh...I can publish.
But they warned me that if anyone involved in a news, come to me OOC and say [don't publish] <--(with brackets, of course......the brackets are magic! :@#\ )
i MUST NOT publish, or they will have to ban me.
What do you think? Can someone do a paper like that? :o
Nevermind. I'm not longer in game. And i will never come back.
You can't understand how i feel. I'm terribly upset!
If they keep doing like that soon this game will die.
PS: If you are planning to make a newspaper.... do it elsewhere! This is not the right place.
-
Sigh let's get the situation correct.
THer eis no rule against publishing a newspaper in game. Here is the situation.
There was discussion about what the situation is if a player objected OOC about having something about them printed in the newspaper. It was pointed out that there is a game rule against harassment. Generally harassment is defined as continuing to do something that bothers someone else after they have asked you to stop doing what ever it is that is bothering you. Depending on the situation going ahead and publishing something in a IG paper could be viewed as harassment. All the details would have to be looked into though before it could be said one way of the other if the situation was harassment.
Basically Raikana wanted total freedom to print what ever she wanted in the paper. This can't be given. For one thing given the settings and the type of government the Octrachy is such a thing as freedom of the press isn't known, so it would be rather OOC to call for such a thing.
Raikana was told a couple of times today by the GMs that she could print what ever she wanted in the paper but if we got complaints from players we would have to look into it and if we decided that there was a kind of harassment going on we would have to do something about it. Remember this is suppose to be a game and games are suppose to be fun. You shouldn't have your fun at the expense of another player though. Also remember that you can't drag others into your RP if others don't want to participate in your RP. Also everyone should try to respect the wishes of other players. If another player has a reason they don't want something published you should try and respect that request.
-
Raikana, I am so sorry it came to this for you and the paper.... both will be missed immensely. I have no idea what happened to cause this situation outside of what you've said above, but I find it sad that something Raikana saw IC is not being allowed to be written about. Will they start gagging people next?
Maybe you and your paper should go underground where the truth can be told. I would encourage any future papers to keep quiet about upcoming content and let the complaints come after the distribution as in real newspapers. Then if you find yourself at fault, a retraction can be printed in the following issue.
Goodbye my friend. :'(
-
Sigh let's get the situation correct.
THer eis no rule against publishing a newspaper in game. Here is the situation.
There was discussion about what the situation is if a player objected OOC about having something about them printed in the newspaper. It was pointed out that there is a game rule against harassment. Generally harassment is defined as continuing to do something that bothers someone else after they have asked you to stop doing what ever it is that is bothering you. Depending on the situation going ahead and publishing something in a IG paper could be viewed as harassment. All the details would have to be looked into though before it could be said one way of the other if the situation was harassment.
Basically Raikana wanted total freedom to print what ever she wanted in the paper. This can't be given. For one thing given the settings and the type of government the Octrachy is such a thing as freedom of the press isn't known, so it would be rather OOC to call for such a thing.
Raikana was told a couple of times today by the GMs that she could print what ever she wanted in the paper but if we got complaints from players we would have to look into it and if we decided that there was a kind of harassment going on we would have to do something about it. Remember this is suppose to be a game and games are suppose to be fun. You shouldn't have your fun at the expense of another player though. Also remember that you can't drag others into your RP if others don't want to participate in your RP. Also everyone should try to respect the wishes of other players. If another player has a reason they don't want something published you should try and respect that request.
= No free press.
If you only read my papers you will see that i respect everybody. Ask to any player....
You talked a lot but you only confirmed my words.
-
For one thing given the settings and the type of government the Octrachy is such a thing as freedom of the press isn't known, so it would be rather OOC to call for such a thing.
That's it. Freedom is OOC! AHAHHAHAHAHAHAH!
oh my god.
-
I would encourage any future papers to keep quiet about upcoming content and let the complaints come after the distribution as in real newspapers. Then if you find yourself at fault, a retraction can be printed in the following issue.
That will not solve the situation. The best would be to DON't do it.
As you heard from Sarva's words "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE PRESS" in that game. And, if there is no free press, all papers that are truly honest and that wish to make it right, CANNOT EXIST.
Only FALSE papers or some really CORRUPTED papers can exist. If you read the guidelines of the paper, you will find the 1° rule:
The Neutrality line
The Guilds & Traders Journal is meant to be a neutral voice. Every point of view is well accepted and, if polited, every idea will be eared and published. That's why the editors should be always aware to defend it indipendance, preventing it from falling in the hands of power groups or guilds.
THAT IS THE FIRST RULE FOR A GOOD PAPER.
And this, i repeat, CAN'T be done here. Is just an illusion.
If i want to live in a REGIME, i have enough with the REAL world, in which this is normal. I don't need to be in a game for that... reality is enough bad.
And, Sarva, you think that i had fun ALONE making the paper? you are wrong. I had fun and, with me, MANY MANY MANY people. So you are not honest. You are just repeting the rules you have learned, like a parrot. You cannot say that publishing a news is HARASSMENT. This is totally wrong. But i don't hope you will understand, you are too concentrated in repeating the rules you have learned, with no time for THINKING, and ADAPTING the rules for the good of the comunity.
This is not to be Master. This is to be a ROBOT. (i'm master of classic roleplay games, like D&D, since a long time. I can ensure that a Master must be WAY MORE then a simple RULEBOOK)
-
This is not to be Master. This is to be a ROBOT. (i'm master of classic roleplay games, like D&D, since a long time. I can ensure that a Master must be WAY MORE then a simple RULEBOOK)
Have been playing RPGs for decades and being the GM for most of the time for many campaigns in a number of genres I have come to learn what is good and bad game management, along with good and bad RPing. I can definitely say slam down the rule book on game mechanics and enforce it (well in a PC application game, very simple, it is enforced no matter what), though throw away the damn rule book when it comes to fleshing out for social interactions between the all characters of the game after simple game mechanics have been applied. If one ever bothered to look at hundreds of RPGs, source books, you find very few rules relating to social interactions, only to provide basic actions depending on circumstances of the encounter. The bulk of the social encounters comes from the players imagination to develop a full body conversion to the a rule or two that was applied for the encounter. In the PC game, this is not possible with NPCs, as there is no living breathing GM to take up the role for the NPC. Thus conversations with NPCs is largely governed by game mechanics. PC to PC interactions is very different to that involving NPCs. PC interactions still follow the RPing style as found in the traditional RPGs sessions.
Now for the newspaper, if IC information is available and known by some, then it definitely can be published. OOC information can't be published, unless the owner of the OOC information gives permission to make the OOC permission to be IC information. This would be typically be done as a journalist interviewing a character about the character itself.
People here are bitching at the decrease of RPing on the server, and the decrease of RPing players. They bitch so much about lack of RPing, and silly stupid IC stuff, that they stupidly end up chasing away good RPers from the server then wonder why RPing sucks even more afterwards.
The times I had the opportunity to RP in IC with Raikana, I had good enjoyable times, for she is a good RPer. It is disgusting and shameful that others bitch and moan pathetically to the GMs about IC information, and the GMs lacking common sense to do a proper investigation on whether the information published is IC or OOC. IC can be information obtained from any other character in game, that has obtained the "generally" OOC information via IC encounters. Simply declaring that the information is OOC is not enough, proof needs to be provided to show that the OOC information has not become IC information along the way with other characters.
Remember the old saying: A secret is only a secret, if no one else knows of the secret. As soon as another knows the secret, you relying on that persons trust and integrity to keep the secret. No one can guarantee that secret will remain only with the person, for circumstances can change over times, relationships can change, resulting in the secret being let out into the open.
The paragraph above applies to IC in game too. So if you consider something OOC, and spoken to someone in IC, it effectively not OOC any more even though the desire for the information still to be OOC.
So all I have to say, think before bitching about OOC and IC information when published or spoken of. Is OOC information really OOC information. Is IC information well known by others, if so definitely can be published.
I am sad that again another RPer has left due to stupid behaviour of players and GMs.
-
Oh this is such bad news! :'(
Raikana, I am so sorry you have gone. The paper was terrific, and Roled really enjoys/ ed getting to know you and rping with you.
You really added alot of energy to the game,
I hope you can figure out a way to come back....
I am sad, sad sad to see you go. :(
Your Friend
Roled
-
Hi,
may I have a quote in here of the part of the paper which was considered OOC by another player and was asked not to be published and considered harassment?
If it's really so sensitive, send it to me via a personal message.
-
I am playing for around 2 month now and I have to say the newspaper Raikana made was really good. And I still like it. And I don't get it why someone would ask OOC not to be in the news. Well your reputation might drop a bit when the other reads it and it wasn't something good. But see it like this. This is the chance for some more interesting RP....
Really I don't get why there are even people complaining about that. Yeah it might happen that I get drunk and destroy the tavern or something worse. And it might happen that it is in the next newspaper and people start talking about it. But that is life.. and I think this is what makes PS more realistic. There aren't people who don't have any fault in real live as well..
And one more thing. The news helped me especially in the beginning to get started. Because you get to know the most important things which happened. Things the people talk about. But when you don't know anyone, you can't really get to know those events. Well I am not sure how to explain it properly but maybe you get what I mean...
@Raikana I don't want to see you leave. If there is anything I could do for you, just tell me.
Jilata
-
Like Jilata I play for around 4 month now and I enjoyed every Issue of the journal as I also enjoyed our RPs (Especially your little relaxing RP).
Jilata is right, when I do something IC I can't say OOC you haven't seen or hear it.
@Sarva The rule about harassment is good but cant be applied to a newspaper.In RL some countries have equal in they law. But it will not prevent the publishing of news. When I drive drunk and kill someone with my car it will be published in many newspapers and I can't do anything against it.
@Raikana I hope you haven't deleted your account yet. As I said IG to you, take a little break and please come back. Your friends will miss you really. If you decision is that you will not comeback I can understand it but I would be sad about it, because a week without the Journal is a bad week.
-
Raikana,
first thing I don't know the details, but...
You are a good RP, and you surely had a good tool to generate good RP as well.
Let's face it. This game is solely based on social interactions, at the moment. We are players from all over the world, with different languages and cultures, and quite different ages. It must be clear to anyone that everything said can be misinterpreted. That surely happens, and since we are here to play, we need to be very open to any change we are obliged, being from a mechanical rule imposed by the game, or being a GM rule of interaction. Never let the anger take the helm, it's useless. We suppose to be a community, the GMs too. We can discuss, we need to discuss, for the sake of the game and the fun. I'm glad to hear that you badly wanted the freedom to RP speech, and I'm with you. What the heck, from my point of view, you had more than a choice: asking safely about the problem, raising the question to the top and firmly explain your position. Every rule need to be quietly pondered, with open mind. That's part of the fun. If the response was against you, you could RP a changing behaviour, that's for sure. Ever searching the fun. Or you could leave us alone without your precious support, because of a sparkle of anger. No more fun.
I'm sorry to see that you seem to have chosen the easy way, as dozens of players before you.
A character is only a bunch of data, can be created in a couple of minutes. Think about it, we are waiting your help, to have fun together.
A friendly neighborhood Klyros
Edit: I need to add this... (You Gotta) Fight for Your Right (to Party) - Beastie Boys
-
@ confused Note in this case we didn't even talk about the specifics of what this dispute involves or even what the matter involved so there is no way to know if this involved OOC or IC information. The GMs only discussed general principals with Raikana and noted that there could be an issue of harassment and that the feelings of other players should be taken into account when deciding what to print in the paper. As was stated we are a community and the feelings of everyone in the community should be taken into account.
To me it seemed like Raikana wanted a blanket approval to print what ever she wanted in the paper not matter what the feelings of anyone else might be. The GMs are not in a position to offer such a blanket approval. As I said if someone starts feeling picked on and doesn't want to be in the paper any mroe and if a player starts feeling their game experience is being ruined by always having their actions show up in the paper then they could feel harassed and under that situation the GMs would have to look into the situation. Giving a blanket approval to print anything Raikana might want could open the door to someone being stalked by reporters from the paper and I'm sure not may here would like that as part of their game experience. Just because nothing like this has already happened doesn't mean it can't happen in the future. when talking to a player in a situation like this the GMs have to try and anticipate the worst things that could possibly happen and respond accordingly. For this reason the GMs can't say Yes you have the blanket ability to always publish what ever you want in the paper.
And I'll point out again Raikana was told she could keep doing the paper printing the paper how ever she wanted. She was just told that if we got complaints we would have to look into it and it could be possible that the situation might be looked at as a form of harassment. Raikana decided on her own that this was an unacceptable situation, that if she didn't have total freedom of the press then she was going to stop doing the paper.
-
So nobody actually came down on her, because nothing had happened, and a possible future consideration was spoken of concerning if, in the future, another player took exception to what was printed about them. So she deleted her character because of something that might happen in the future and might have an impact on the newspaper?
-
So she deleted her character because of something that might happen in the future and might have an impact on the newspaper?
My guess, from past experiences with Raikana, is that you are correct, Verden.
- Nova
-
I think part of the RP experience includes allowing a player's character to suffer the consequences of their in-game IC actions, whether or not they like it. It all adds to the realism in my opinion. If they do something newsworthy and someone else knows of it IC, then they have no say in how others talk of it or publish their actions in a paper. To me, the harassment is objecting to other characters who were either involved in, overhead or saw this players actions being warned not to speak of it. If the players actions deserve harassment, then they should receive it as long as it all stays IC. I don't believe this matter arose from a hypothetical situation. Before players RP something, they need to realize they will be held responsible for their actions.
-
Dannae, my feeling is that it is not so cut and dried as that when it comes to a publicly sold journal. For the record no complaints were made by me concerning the Journal; though Raikana has sent, what was considered by me, harassing tells and a pm. The player called me rude and a snob, ooc, because my character was upset by a deal that was broken between our two characters.
It was also a bit troubling that an interview conducted for the Journal was published in an edited form. More sound bites than what was intended by my character's comments. From all of these experiences it seems clear that given unhindered leeway to publish whatever she wants could be a very great potential for harassment.
Only recently was my character contacted by a staff of the Journal for another interview. When my character agreed on condition that my replies to each question they chose to publish be published in it's entirety (agreeing to keep my replies to a maximum number of words if they wanted) they were not heard from again.
My feeling is that someone wanted to stir up bad feelings between Talad worshippers and Laanx worshippers.
So the press is a powerful medium both in RL and IC. If one can publish whatever they want without regard to consequences, then such publication can do a disservice rather than a service.
In RL we have the court of laws to sue publications for defamation of character. IC we have GMs. If Raikana can't live with that then perhaps she should retire.
- Nova
[Edit: P.S. It is my hope that the present staff of the Journal will continue with publication. The Journal, itself, is a great addition to RP. It just should be understood that they must abide by the rules that all others are subject to. ]
-
So she deleted her character because of something that might happen in the future and might have an impact on the newspaper?
My guess, from past experiences with Raikana, is that you are correct, Verden.
- Nova
i have to agree with this. was going to post something rly lengthy yesterday but lost it since my internet crapped out.... but it seems like everything i was going to say was already posted.
i think the GMs did everything right and raikana simply overreacted, like usual. i've had similar experiences with her as nova had. she doesn't have a grasp of the gap between ic and ooc.
-
For those that don't know what the copies are like, I might post one of the newpapers on the forum with Raikana's permission of course.
-
things is about news, IRL the news is always tweaked, news people do that to get more readers, they will get a story, and edit 'here and there' to make it 'better' its illegal, yes, but nobody ever does anything about it, what reason shouldnt that be the case in game as well? Obviously there is no law against it IC
somtimes its all about point of view as well, so take that under consideration, if your interviewd by anyone.
-
Earowo, if my character started printing and selling a HOWTO for Winch Access the GMs would rightfully tell me to stop it and likely ban me for some time if not forever. That is because my character would be breaking a rule by revealing spoilers. If you print harassing information in a public newspaper then they would have the same right. Just because you are RPing a newspaper does not make one free from the rules that others must comply with. Because Raikana does not want to keep that in mind, when she is RPing, is her problem; no one else's.
Hopefully the new administration of the Journal will be RP friendly enough to get permission before publishing about someone. Most folks would be flattered to be written about. Those that don't want to be; then leave them out of it. Sounds pretty simple to me.
- Nova
-
Don't put your hopes in seeing the journal again. Raikana was the Journal in PS. Raikana did almost everything in each issue of the Journal. Just face it. The moaners killed off the journal that was stimulating RPing.
-
Don't put your hopes in seeing the journal again. Raikana was the Journal in PS. Raikana did almost everything in each issue of the Journal. Just face it. The moaners killed off the journal that was stimulating RPing.
Hey, it is a damn good business. My character dumped almost 10k of tria into it. If no one picks up the ball perhaps Venorel will. She is an avid author and cunning businesswoman. At least she will know how to treat her customers. ;)
Until someone can tell me different my bet is that no one moaned but Raikana.
- Nova
-
TBH If Nova were selling the paper, i wouldnt be intrested anymore.
and a cunning businesswoman.
Business, usually = boring. i like raikanas stories, and her puzzles, you couldnt get anything that good if you tried.
-
Don't put your hopes in seeing the journal again. Raikana was the Journal in PS. Raikana did almost everything in each issue of the Journal. Just face it. The moaners killed off the journal that was stimulating RPing.
Hey, it is a damn good business. My character dumped almost 10k of tria into it. If no one picks up the ball perhaps Venorel will. She is an avid author and cunning businesswoman. At least she will know how to treat her customers. ;)
Until someone can tell me different my bet is that no one moaned but Raikana.
- Nova
You got to be kidding... 50 copies a week, 250 tria each = 12500 tria.
Thats approx. what i make from 2 refined iron Stocks or 1 good Helmet.
I miss her already. :'(
-
and the GMs lacking common sense to do a proper investigation on whether the information published is IC or OOC. IC can be information obtained from any other character in game, that has obtained the "generally" OOC information via IC encounters. Simply declaring that the information is OOC is not enough, proof needs to be provided to show that the OOC information has not become IC information along the way with other characters.
As Sarva said, was the discussion not if something was ooc or ic.
We came across some complaint (of course an ooc complaint) about published information. We offered repeatedly, that both sides of this and any ooc-dispute with another are welcome to come to us, so that we can talk to both sides and calm the issue down.
This offer was never accepted. Instead, only the own opinion counted. While that's a valid decision for a player, gms can't just give a "do whatever you want"-permission to a player without considering what this could mean to another player.
We never got to the point to talk to both sides to decide if it was ok or not ok to publish it.
-
What a pity that some people don't trust friends being able to mediate, listen to both sides, and find compromises.
There was no reason to leave, Raikana. Not if you had been looking for friends to share your doubts before doing the last step.
I can easily imagine a case so hard that the Settings won't allow it to be published (details about Black Flame and all related things); if the mentioned reason was not half as serious, there was not half as much reason to let your friends down over it.
Well - the Knowledge Seekers will keep their issues in their library. You did something great.
-
After reading a copy of edition 10 of the paper I have to admit I'm even more confused about what the problem was in this dispute.
Right in the paper is this message.
Note to readers,
If you find your name mentioned here an you are not agreement with it please accept our apologies and communicate it to the editor , your name will not be used anymore in further editions of the newspaper.
If this policy is true and actually active then it seems Raikana would be allowing people to dictate what could and couldn't be printed in the paper since any individual to opt out of being mentioned in the paper. But the stated desire to have freedom of the press where no one could dictate what could appear in the paper seems to be in opposition to the policy published in the paper. I can see where problems would come up if the policy published in the paper wasn't being followed and people were being put into the paper after they had asked, per the policy published in the paper, not to appear in the paper.
-
Yeah, I know Raikana better then most, and you wouldn't believe how much time, effort, and talent went into the journal. If you think that anyone can just whip up a journal and make it really nice, then chances are you are wrong. Also, G&TJ isn't coming back unless Raikana does. Sorry.
-
Character deletion is always an extreme response. For some reason, I am thinking of the Judean Peoples Front Suicide Squad.
-
Nova, thanks for filling us in a bit more about the issue and I do agree with the points you made to an extent. However, I think in these kinds of situations, it could make for real good RP to work out problems and possibly come to compromises IC rather than going for quick and easy intervention by GMs. Even if it comes to an all out war with groups backing both sides of a situation, think of the fun it could lead to.
GM involvement should only have to come into play when and if matters escalate to OOC harassment. I've seen too many times where players get into disagreements and resort to ooc to discuss or try to get things worked out, but in doing so miss out on the potential for really moving emotional RP. I don't approve of the alleged ooc remarks made to you and would not hesitate to request GM help in that event.
In the situation Nova describes, I don't know if the initial request to withhold the story from printing came ooc or ic, but could have been fun to fight it all out ic. If no compromises could be agreed to, then possibly a counter paper or flyer could have been distributed or even a boycott of the paper started. There's so many ic ways to handle things like this that would really make our little virtual world feel more like a real community if only players were willing to stay ic and fight for their beliefs there. Not all the RP has to be about killings and kidnappings and demon monsters with a taste for brains.
-
First of all thanks to those that are showing to the forum their interest for the "G&T Journal Operation" as example of free press, my apologies goes to those who are suffering for the death (or should i say sleep? I happily see there are other editors ready to take my place... ) of the journal. I also apologize for the outburst and the "shouted words " instead of my usual "pampered words". I hope you can forgive this temperamental idealist. Now let's try to enlighten this situation.
My first answer goes to Talad. I saw him very confused (like many of you) and i want to answer in the best way i can:
Hi,
may I have a quote in here of the part of the paper which was considered OOC by another player and was asked not to be published and considered harassment?
If it's really so sensitive, send it to me via a personal message.
It was not a ready article, but one that had to be written (or maybe not). Was something about Sulaika, which, among other things, gave her consent to publish the article despite the admonitions of Mishka. To tell the truth, it was not the first time that Mishka tried to stop the paper from writing the news but this is not the exact point. Many people are convinced all this is about Mishka; nothing can be more wrong. It's absolutely not about her.
Please try to understand that the problem is not about a single article or a single person, but about the "harassment" rules themselves and maybe, in some way, about the "robotic way" to solve the problems adopted by the masters: worshipping the rules instead of using them.
I'll try to explain my point of view by answering to the various posts made so far. Perhaps among all the "posters", Sarva can help me to clarify the main points of my argument, as we shall see more ahead.
----------
Immediately after, i would like to answer to Boeven, whose words were the spring that made me decide to invest this additional time for the good of every player.
Never let the anger take the helm, it's useless. We suppose to be a community, the GMs too. We can discuss, we need to discuss, for the sake of the game and the fun. I'm glad to hear that you badly wanted the freedom to RP speech, and I'm with you.
Your words have spurred me to make one last attempt. Let's try to follow the path of the peaceful discussion like yo suggest. With the help of the staff and the players, I hope we can do it.
I will try to expose with calm (and a pinch of mordacity) the reasons of my apparently sudden rage and to do so, I will investigate the issues and arguments with the utmost honesty.
What the heck, from my point of view, you had more than a choice: asking safely about the problem, raising the question to the top and firmly explain your position. Every rule need to be quietly pondered, with open mind. That's part of the fun. If the response was against you, you could RP a changing behaviour, that's for sure. Ever searching the fun. Or you could leave us alone without your precious support, because of a sparkle of anger. No more fun.
I'm sorry to see that you seem to have chosen the easy way, as dozens of players before you.
From what I saw, I got the impression that the reactionary climax of the game does not allow major changes coming from below, from the "commoners", from the players. I really hope I'm wrong. To prove you my goodwill, i'll follow your advice and raise the problem with no anger. To solve it.
Edit: I need to add this... (You Gotta) Fight for Your Right (to Party) - Beastie Boys
"You Gotta Fight for Your Right"? ... this fight just started my friend!
--------
Right... is time to deep into the topic.
The GMs only discussed general principals with Raikana and noted that there could be an issue of harassment and that the feelings of other players should be taken into account when deciding what to print in the paper. As was stated we are a community and the feelings of everyone in the community should be taken into account.
The first question should be: What is an harassment?
Lets ask to wikipedia:
"Harassment covers a wide range of offensive behaviour. It is commonly understood as behaviour intended to disturb or upset. In the legal sense, it is behaviour which is found threatening or disturbing."
Oh well... lets explore the meaning of this word and see what it has in common with publishing an article in a newspaper.
Definition 1: "A behaviour intended to disturb or upset".
Is an article "intended to disturb"? Or it's just a service useful to the comunity, "intended to help"? Or, as Urriro says, we shall be considered "terrorists of helping"?
Definition 2: "A behaviour which is found threatening or disturbing.".
In my humble opinion, is a major threat and a major disturb the one caused by an individual citizen to the community, by blocking an article for vanity, then the opposit. Did i explain myself?
I'll try again.
A simple individual should not be able stop the printing of a newspaper that serves the entire community through a simple: "[don't publish!]". In this case is greater than the inconvenience he causes to the community that the inconvenience the community causes to him. Technically speaking, HE would be harassing the community.
Some of you could say that wikipedia is not an authoritative source... maybe you are right, who knows. That's why i'll ask for help to the law. I wish that will be enough authoritative...
Under the United States Code Title 18 Subsection 1514(c)1, for example, "harassment" is defined as:
"A course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such a person and serves no legitimate purpose".
Pay attention to the postulation: " [...] and serves no legitimate purpose". What do you think... A newspaper has a legitimate purpose? I personally think it's purpose is legitimated by a strong majority of players, as everybody (or "quite" everybody) can confirm and as we can see from this thread.
Urriro expressed the idea in such a simple way, that i could never say it better:
The rule about harassment is good but cant be applied to a newspaper.In RL some countries have equal in they law. But it will not prevent the publishing of news. When I drive drunk and kill someone with my car it will be published in many newspapers and I can't do anything against it.
After all these considerations, I can only think that "harassing" is not the ideal concept to describe the search for truth made for the citizens by a publicly respected group.
To me it seemed like Raikana wanted a blanket approval to print what ever she wanted in the paper not matter what the feelings of anyone else might be. [...] Giving a blanket approval to print anything Raikana might want could open the door to someone being stalked by reporters from the paper and I'm sure not may [many?] here would like that as part of their game experience.
This is a simplification of the concept, which makes me smile bitterly.
I have always respected the sentiments of everyone. The one who asked me not to appear in the newspaper, has seen fulfilled his desire. Who asked me to write in the paper anonymously, has got what he asked. The newspaper does not want the absolute right to write whatever, tyrannizing indiscriminately! It only asks to not have to throw away good articles, or even worst, to risk the BAN because of the whims of a single player.
These shallow arguments you bring only prove that you do not know what the Guilds & Traders Journal is. Apparently not only you've never read it, but probably you've not even read the guidelines, posted at the beginning of this thread. My advice is: read the journal and it's philosophy before to make such degrading assumptions like: "To me it seemed like Raikana wanted a blanket approval to print what ever she wanted".
While finishing the work on this post, i saw this new message from you... let's see it:
After reading a copy of edition 10 of the paper I have to admit I'm even more confused about what the problem was in this dispute.
Right in the paper is this message.
Note to readers,
If you find your name mentioned here an you are not agreement with it please accept our apologies and communicate it to the editor , your name will not be used anymore in further editions of the newspaper.
If this policy is true and actually active then it seems Raikana would be allowing people to dictate what could and couldn't be printed in the paper since any individual to opt out of being mentioned in the paper. But the stated desire to have freedom of the press where no one could dictate what could appear in the paper seems to be in opposition to the policy published in the paper. I can see where problems would come up if the policy published in the paper wasn't being followed and people were being put into the paper after they had asked, per the policy published in the paper, not to appear in the paper.
You seem to be very hurried to judge, too much, if I may point it out. Read again please:
"If you find your name mentioned here an you are not agreement with it please accept our apologies and communicate it to the editor , your name will not be used anymore in further editions of the newspaper."
As i said above:
"The one who asked me not to appear in the newspaper, has seen fulfilled his desire. Who asked me to write in the paper anonymously, has got what he asked."
There is a substantial difference between "Ask not to publish a name" and "Ask not to publish an article" and i'm surprised once again that a Master can not grasp the obvious difference. This comment, frankly, is as useless as deeply wrong.
Let me try to explain it again:
Respect for the individual is out of question. I have widely demonstrated that my newspaper was respectful of everyone. The policy (as it is logical) DON'T ensure the right to stop the printing of an article, it ensure the right do don't have your NAME on that article. Again. Anyone who officially requested anonymity, got it!
----------
RELAX
At this point, my post may look like one of the many articles of our beloved newspaper, a sort of new section titled: "The editor replies". This may be partly true, given the nature of the topics covered and the diligence that I'm trying to keep in their treatment (clearly this is an allegory because the newspaper was, is and always should be only IC, dealing always and only with IC topics).
If this were true, this one would be a kind of "tenth and a half issue", a sort of "Twilight Zone" of PlaneShifts's Journalism. In that case we should not miss the section dedicated to relax and jokes... right? Well...it would have been a problem to find time to laugh in this rueful climax, if our priceless Nova and Sarras had not decided to give us moments of intense exhilaration. Let's see:
---------
Earowo, if my character started printing and selling a HOWTO for Winch Access the GMs would rightfully tell me to stop it and likely ban me for some time if not forever. That is because my character would be breaking a rule by revealing spoilers. If you print harassing information in a public newspaper then they would have the same right.
How can you remain indifferent in front of such overwise adduction? Another good question is: While we're at it, why not to compare the topic of "independent press" to printing a porn magazine or to printing the book "10 steps to destroy the Otharchy"?
---------
Don't put your hopes in seeing the journal again. Raikana was the Journal in PS. Raikana did almost everything in each issue of the Journal. Just face it. The moaners killed off the journal that was stimulating RPing.
Hey, it is a damn good business. My character dumped almost 10k of tria into it.
I would like to remember to Nova that Venorel (excluding the "vendor" experience in which she was supposedly working FOR the newspaper) only bought 6 issues of the paper and an advertise subscription for 4 issues (it costed 720 tria for each issue). Let's make a little calculation:
6*250= 1.500 tria +
4*720= 2.880 tria =
_______________
4.380 tria
My question is: Where did you spent the remaining 5620 tria? Did you know you could buy another 22 issues (with a remainder of 160 tria for a sandwich) with that money? It means, five months and a half of reading. I think you should pay more attention to approximate on such delicate topics.
Too many people are always ready to criticize, but they are rarely willing to do challenging things to help other players.
It's easy to say what it "should" be done, without doing it. Is easy to talk about the 9 thousand tria earned in a week of hard work by a person who writes, invents, corrects, edits, organizes, sells and distributes a newspaper, collects advertisements and announcements of every guild and every trader in the game and also finds time, sometimes, to run games for the people. Everybody knows that it's possible to make the same money in a few minutes of mid-level metallurgy, without a penny of the mental effort required to draw up a newspaper.
To better illustrate this concept i will quote this afirmation:
You got to be kidding... 50 copies a week, 250 tria each = 12500 tria.
Thats approx. what i make from 2 refined iron Stocks or 1 good Helmet.
Well said Ohforf! You've just forgotten that we have to pay 50 tria for each blank book and at least 1000 tria for the weekly contest (i'm not calculating the free copies and the presents to the readers), so the weekly total is more alike 9.000 tria... a true fortune considering the easy job.
-----------------
Don't put your hopes in seeing the journal again. Raikana was the Journal in PS. Raikana did almost everything in each issue of the Journal. Just face it. The moaners killed off the journal that was stimulating RPing.
If no one picks up the ball perhaps Venorel will. She is an avid author and cunning businesswoman. At least she will know how to treat her customers. ;)
While she was alive, Raikana was sincerely agree to the idea of having a rival newspaper. In journalism, the "rivalry" (though in reality is more like rowing toward the same dock) helps to keep information alive. I hope I'm not wrong assuming that, when you say "avid author", you are referring to the thirst for knowledge, rather than tria, as for that is certainly better to pursue other much more lucrative professions.
I only wonder why you decided to tell the world your passion for journalism only after the death of Raikana, but I guess it is just a strange coincidence...
----------------------
Don't put your hopes in seeing the journal again. Raikana was the Journal in PS. Raikana did almost everything in each issue of the Journal. Just face it. The moaners killed off the journal that was stimulating RPing.
Until someone can tell me different my bet is that no one moaned but Raikana.
I see that you support the presumption of innocence.
------------------
So she deleted her character because of something that might happen in the future and might have an impact on the newspaper?
My guess, from past experiences with Raikana, is that you are correct, Verden.
- Nova
hmmmm...
I were one of the readers now, I'd be wondering what are these enigmatic "past experiences". Of course I would assume that these "experiences" have something to do with Verden's question... otherwise what's the point of that answer?
Well... what do you think...let's uncover the mistery? Let's try! Just sit back because this is a fairly articulated story.
If you are not intentioned to read it (i don't blame you), please just jump to the next answer!
It all starts with a conversation. Venorel claims to be a huge fan of the newspaper and wanted to help sell it; great! This conversation started around 3:40... so after 40 minutes talking I was a bit tired, and i forgot to specify that if there are some unsold copies, it necessary to give them back to the newspaper (fully refunded) to guarantee distribution. It's a simple rule I always specify but, wretched me, i forgot to tell Venorel this detail at the time. Anyway, i made the concept clear in other words... at least i though...as we'll see: (all this conversations have NO CUTS)
================================================
Monday 08-nov-2010 03:09:08 Raikana Plip
------------------------------------------------
{ Background: The Gug's Tavern }
(04:26:18) Raikana says: first of all i need to know you are going to do your best to spread the paper...giving it to as many different people you can
(04:26:49) Venorel says: "I plan totake subscriptions"
(04:28:19) Raikana says: ok...if i give you copies to sell is because i want to be able to reach more people...if the copies go to a private library or in some collector shop, we failed the mission
{here i was asking her if she would like to help with the Weekly Contest (she said no). At the time was the "Banuts Contest"...}
(04:28:47) Raikana says: second thing.....the contest
(04:29:07) >Raikana Plip picked up a Sack of Banuts
(04:29:25) Raikana says: take this
{here she seems to understand the point of "not having stuck copies"...}
(04:29:30) Venorel says: "No that would not be the intent. I would se subscribers. I had not woried about being stuck with copies as I expect an interst incolecting. Yet until you stop printing them then collecting islimted
After one week i look for her, to know something about the results of her work for the journal.
================================================
Monday 15-nov-2010 21:03:48 Raikana Plip
------------------------------------------------
{ Background: The arena's upper corridors. }
(22:21:43) Venorel says: I was hoping I might find you.
(22:22:15) Raikana says: Same here!
(22:22:21) Venorel says: I have two new subscribers.
22:23:10) Raikana says: Thats very good.....i'm terribly sorry but II forgot to say you that the unsold copies must be returned to the paper (the paper will buy back)
(22:23:41) Venorel looks puzzled, "That was not part of our negotiations."
(22:24:01) Raikana says: Now....for this edition if you want you can keep them, cause was MY fault, but from now ahead it would be important to set this rule....ok?
(22:24:13) Venorel looks puzzled, "That was not part of our negotiations."
(22:24:35) Venorel says: "We shook hands on our agreement."
(22:24:36) Raikana says: If you are not agree we can interrupt the businnes, no problem, i understand you
(22:24:45) Raikana says: no no
(22:25:00) Venorel glares at Raikana, "So be it."
{ Here Venorel goes away like a flash, and Raikana stand a while talking to the thin air: }
(22:25:06) Raikana says: If you remember i sayd that the copies was to GIVE TO PEOPLE and not to canserve for collector
(22:25:37) [Tell] You tell Venorel: We was talking......why you are so rude?
(22:25:45) [Tell] You tell Venorel: .....
(22:26:14) [Tell] Venorel tells you: [Raikana broke a business agreement. He is lucky he does not have his head seperated from his body]
Please note the following: I have not broken any agreement, I only said I would understand if she wanted to break it, as she seemed not to understand the reasons for the need to return the unsold copies to the newspaper (after reimbursement). Other vendors like Cinade, Heralle or Mekora never had problems about that; maybe, i guess, because they did care about the newspaper and not about the economic profit opportunity.
There was no need for being so rude.
I'll spare you the rest of the (useless) discussions and logs, but I can tell you that afterwards I've tried every way to make peace: I apologized ICly and OOCly, I sent groffels, i sent /tells, I even appealed to her alleged belief in Talad. .. nothing. She seemed to HATE me ... till now.
Here i tell you again: forgive this sinner as would do the good Talad (the God). Be at least true to yourself and to your primordial beliefs, without a second thought due to a misunderstanding. Weren't you a great fan of the paper? What now? Can you make peace with the newspaper (and with the memory of Raikana)?
----------
So she deleted her character because of something that might happen in the future and might have an impact on the newspaper?
My guess, from past experiences with Raikana, is that you are correct, Verden.
- Nova
i have to agree with this. was going to post something rly lengthy yesterday but lost it since my internet crapped out.... but it seems like everything i was going to say was already posted.
i think the GMs did everything right and raikana simply overreacted, like usual. i've had similar experiences with her as nova had. she doesn't have a grasp of the gap between ic and ooc.
Mmm... let me remember... Am I wrong or your character is the one that called Raikana a "prostitute" for no reason? Ah yes... it is!
Let's post the logs so is more easy to understand:
================================================
Monday 15-nov-2010 02:35:51 Raikana Plip
------------------------------------------------
{the "klyros" was Raikana and the "fenki" was Ambria, an alt of Mekora}
(03:08:38) Sarras passes by the klyros and fenki, giving them curious looks. She mumbles, "More hookers?"
That day I avoided discussing the issue and I've flown over. Another day i saw her and i reminded that:
================================================
Wednesday 17-nov-2010 06:40:44 Raikana Plip
------------------------------------------------
08:35:14) Raikana says: you told me i'm a hooker
(08:35:27) Raikana says: i'll never forget it
(08:35:32) Raikana says: you are very rude
(08:35:36) Raikana says: too much rude
(08:35:39) Sarras says: Huh? Oh, that... Hahaha. Well, you did look like one!
After that Raikana was upset, i admid. Well... sorry for my insensate and not understandable reaction. Next time i may try to truly become a prostitute, so i can please you more.
JOKES
So nobody actually came down on her, because nothing had happened, and a possible future consideration was spoken of concerning if, in the future, another player took exception to what was printed about them. So she deleted her character because of something that might happen in the future and might have an impact on the newspaper?
Oh yes... and she is Napoleon Bonaparte! Don't you know? Sorry for the spontaneous joke but I find really funny that a person, without knowing what he's talking about, assumes "a priori" that Raikana is totally crazy. Fun.
Now, seriously, I hope this whole post, and the feedback of the players, will help you to understand the reasons of our fight for the right to independent press.
CONCLUSION
Lastly i would like to ask to you all to porpose solutions to the issues exposed while answering to Sarva. How can we modify the "harassing" rule, to allow any serious journalist to work in peace, without the specter of a mythomaniac that can block the prints with a simple [Don't Pubblish!]?
I do not mean to do as they teach in BBC:
"A good journalist can not avoid to upset somebody every day."
At least let's try, with the maximum respect for the readers as usual, not to publish "The newspaper that has to please everyone by force", because that's the opposite of journalism. And it's not fun.
PS:
-----
For those that don't know what the copies are like, I might post one of the newpapers on the forum with Raikana's permission of course.
Do what you think is right! Your help is highly apreciated. Though, consider the idea of publishing only the parts that are relevant to this topic, to keep the paper an IC reality. This was part of it's value, it's importance and uniqueness.
Please excuse possible spelling errors, why is it possible that I have made several.
Before replying to this message, think well about the words to use to avoid unnecessary debates.
Kisses.
The soul of Raikana Plip.
-
I have always respected the sentiments of everyone. The one who asked me not to appear in the newspaper, has seen fulfilled his desire. Who asked me to write in the paper anonymously, has got what he asked. The newspaper does not want the absolute right to write whatever, tyrannizing indiscriminately! It only asks to not have to throw away good articles, or even worst, to risk the BAN because of the whims of a single player.
This sounds already quite different from what impression I had from our talk. But I still think we don't fully speak about the same thing yet.
You write that you anonymized an article in agreement with another player. That's, in this case, pretty much exactly what we asked you to do. Basically to respect the feelings of others (again, players, not chars) with your own gameplay. I didn't know about this case in particular, but Im happy to hear about it.
Let me ask about a hypothetical case: If the same person could be easily identified in your article, so that anonymizing him doesn't mean anything. What would you do in such a case? To make it worse, the player would stop to play, because his char's story and possibilities to act would be destroyed.
What we tried to ask of you is, to take his (in this case theoretical) complaint into consideration. And, if it's not possible to work the issue out with another, ask gms for moderation. Simply that.
I think there's the difference in what we speak about. You seem to be concerned that your newspaper will be censored and things, that your char actually sees, can't be written. Im concerned that someone's hopefully good playing experience can get destroyed. Unnecessarily, because most things can be worked out.
As a side note, the thread reads for me like "The evil gms ban someone, because someone else made an unproven statement". Actually, I read about the ban threat even before a gm said a single word. I would also ask to tone that kind of negativity down.
Im quite unhappy about the consequences you drew, because, despite your view on gms, did my player char read the newspapers he got. I have a slight impression of how much work you put into it.
It's very good that you want to work constructively on a change of the harrasment rule. I can't say anything about it yet (not even if and to what extend it has to be changed), but if there are constructive suggestions they will be taken into consideration.
-
Did you read what i wrote?
-
Did you read what i wrote?
I did :)
And I will miss you dearly Raik, I've always loved your papers..And I understand Journalism isnt supposed to please people, its supposed to be interesting, while also displaying the 'truth' about somthing that has happened.
-
Raikana, did you read what Durgrem wrote and did you understand what he wrote?
-
I see the points of the GM's as I see the point's of you Raikana, but see isn't it a bit way too much overreaction to leave of such a thing? And I agree with Dannae it could have been fun to be rped it out, instead of involving the GM's at the first point with a petition.
Actually, I read about the ban threat even before a gm said a single word.
Just to support what Durgrem said. There has been never a ban made quick by the GM's. But so see both sides please.
-
You say it has nothing to do with Mishka but you don't cease to mention her… I said I wasn't going to post here, but I have to, sorry. Only for that little remark.
What I didn't stop telling Raikana was that there was a rule that stated that if we don't feel comfortable OOCly by someone else's actions, we can ask that person to stop doing it, always OOCly. I got mad at her because she was pressing me to get information, and I didn't have a good day either that day.
She asked me, in tells and completely OOCly, to give her information about Mishka's guild change. I didn't agree, and posed some situatios in which I didn't like to see Mishka's name published. I recognize I was harsh that time, and apologized later. I even gave her the information. Would you like to know what happened between those actions?
She refused to sell me her newspaper <ICly> for a reason that was <OOC>. And I didn't report to anyone when I could.
We talked about it. LOL I even discovered she speaks Spanish. We settled down our dispute and she sold me a copy. I gave her information about Mishka's guild change [ICly, of course], and shared a few jokes. Then, she asked about an incident that happened at the Red Crystal Den, involving an exploding Esorono and a bottle of cider (don't laugh, Mishka was terrified). I asked her what could she do to avoid writing such thing and stain the names and reputation of Mishka and the RCD. She limited herself to answer "You shouldn't have said it". So I asked her to not publish such thing, for the reason mentioned, and because it happened (for me) long time ago.
She started bitching on me. I cut it quickly: I told her to scratch Mishka's name, and everyone happy. Or so I thought. Okay, maybe it was a mistake from my side, and if it was, I recognize it. But that wasn't a good reaction for her part either: childish and arrogant.
After that, I saw Raikana talking with Urriro about Sulaika. I don't remember how, but they agreed going to the RCD. I made Mishka follow them, because she's Urriro and Sulaika's friend, and Urriro didn't say he disagreed ("au contraire", he even told Mish a secret after the conversation, but that's spoiling RPs, so sorry).
Hah, Urriro, poor friend! You should've shut up your mouth. When Urriro told Raikana about sulaika, and asked her nicely and ICly to not publish her, she, with arrogance, gave him the same answer she gave me: "You shouldn't have said it". Urriro asked her OOCly, and I did too!
It seems that Raikana took my words, for an unknown reason, REALLY REALLY bad:
-What I meant was: If you don't follow this rule and stop a RP due to an OOC complaint drected to you, a player can report you to a Game Master. [<=== THAT'S ALL!!]
-What she understood (my opinion and can be rendered invalid): If you don't stop this, I'm getting you banned. [OMG really?]
Whoa, man. Now the problem changes a lot, eh? From an OOC warning to a full threat? It seems I got lost with the calculus somewhere. OH!! And keep in touch I bought ALL the copies I missed, and sold her a repeated issue I had around. At this point, I lost all the respect I had towards Raikana (naw, not really). But was this finished? No! The last strike had yet to come.
Freedom of press. A book behind Harnquist asking people to sign to avoid the disappearance of the newspaper and supporting the freedom of press. My respect-o-meter went from 1 to -5 (ranked from +10 to 0). At this moment, I lost faith in Humanity RPing. After that… well, it's too confusing. Let's say it was the last time I saw Raikana in game.
Now, my final thoughts:
-Raikana, GREAT STUPID, why did you leave? Because you thought they were going to ban you? Bad, Raikana, bad!
-You left a gap in PS without the G&T Journal. Hey, and I include myself. Didn't I buy all the issues I missed? And I shared jokes with you, too. And gave you information! And planned on giving the newspaper some tips about blacksmithing. You left, you miss it. But Raikana wasn't a developed character mechanic-wise, or is she?
-I never, repeat, NEVER wanted YOU, RAIKANA, to get you banned/make you leave. I even considered leaving for a while until things settled down.
It's late and I should be sleeping rather than writing… and sorry I didn't keep my promise: I said I was not going to post here. LOL, I think I posted too much.
G'night.
-
(01:34:40) Esalir picks up hs pack "I need time to myself. Bye."
(01:34:53) Sarras sighs.
(01:34:54) Raikana says: i recognize you girl
(01:35:01) Sarras says: No, you don't.
(01:35:05) Raikana says: you told me i'm a hooker
(01:35:17) Raikana says: i'll never forget it
(01:35:22) Raikana says: you are very rude
(01:35:26) Raikana says: too much rude
(01:35:29) Sarras says: Huh? Oh, that... Hahaha. Well, you did look like one!
(01:35:39) Raikana says: insult me again and it will be your last time
(01:35:54) Raikana says: you are just pathetic
(01:36:00) Sarras says: Alright.
(01:36:17) Sarras shouts: Ugly blue wing-ed lizard! Hah!
(01:37:20) Esalir runs and tackles sarras
(01:37:31) Sarras gets tackled. "Heyy!"
(01:37:38) [Tell] Raikana tells you: Why do you insult the people you don't know? You must be some really ugly soul....you must be a useless person
(01:37:52) [Tell] You tell Raikana: [roleplay please]
(01:38:13) [Tell] Raikana tells you: that's not roleplay, that's insulting....you are simply a "little" person
(01:38:13) Esalir positions himelf ontop of sarras and starts tickling her
(01:38:15) Esalir says: I
(01:38:16) Esalir says: am
(01:38:17) >Sarras Volcae takes a seat.
(01:38:17) Esalir says: NOT
(01:38:24) Esalir shouts: Ugly\!
these are the full logs of that incident, raikana. if you want to discuss it, pm me.
-
Wow sarras, no wonder people call you a sarrasaur, you 'are' a bi***.
-
(01:36:17) Sarras shouts: Ugly blue wing-ed lizard! Hah!
I’ll note this for future reference to sarras
-
Seems like the moaners are still in strong force here. No surprise Raikana is not coming back.
Raikana, we will miss your fun filled RPing you created for the rest of us, even though the moaners helped destroy the much needed RPing on a dying RP server.
From when I came to PS, RPing has been on a decline. Most are just focussing on upping their stats in the quickest possible time. It was nice having another RPer in my timezone when I was in game.
-
\\o// Thank you Mishka. That was very important. And I see you tried your best to rp it out, but then as it still did not help you asked for help. :thumbup:
-
First off - it is very sad to see Raikana leave, she sounds like a great writer.
But my opinion to the rule of harassment is BS - really it's an IC action, the whole paper - so really what I am guessing Raikana is doing is publishing news, news is news it's the media GTFOI. They publish what they please when they please you don't like that tough luck.
You want to know something - I was pronounced dead by a newspaper yes I understand what it's like getting my name put into a newspaper when I don't want it in. Now pronounced dead was a complete lie when I was in a critical situation in ICU in hospital (for a car accident) now yeah it sounds pretty much like "wow who cares you would be asleep anyways" well considering my parents were stressed to the max and getting phone calls of people feeling for them because I am 'dead' got very irritating and hard for them.
My point is that its the media they lie they put whoevers name in their papers as they please... the only thing stopping them would be the police as saying a criminals name could led to many other problems. But still really who cares if your name was placed in the paper and it was an insult towards you, your life in Yliakum isn't going to be perfect the media will stir to make tria or make their name larger, it's just what they do. Just build a bridge and you'll be fine.
Sorry if this is a peace of crap but it's my time to hit the sack :sleeping:
-
Few things on my side.
1) I still didn't get completely what was the harassment to be posted, the only part in this long thread explaining it is "an incident that happened at the Red Crystal Den, involving an exploding Esorono and a bottle of cider (don't laugh, Mishka was terrified)." What I get is that the event was a problem if reported IC because the involved people didn't want it to be published IC. That's perfectly fine to me and I don't see why there is need of GM intervention on it. An important point is that a paper published in game should not contain OOC information, like personal information on the players.
2) Sarva said in her posts that the warning was to take care of not making a journal which would make other players mad, the journal would not be censored or stopped before publication, but if the resulting article would be very bad, then the GMs could decide to take action on it. I think that probably GMs should not even start this conversation, because it's implied in our policy that harassment is not permitted, and they could read the paper later and decide if that was bad or not. Intervening up front seemed not the best move, and generated a lot of trouble for nothing. So I ask the GMs to avoid such things in the future. Be part of the game only when things happen and are very bad, do not make "hypothesis" on what may happen, or what other players report it may happen. At this point the paper has not been published yet, so any speculation on how it's content is "harassment" or very bad is just fictional and to me not very useful.
3) I think Raikana definitely over-reacted by deleting his/her account. This means we will have to work on the backup to restore it, if this dispute is settled.
My suggestion is that players should go to GMs only when there is real evidence in game of something which is against our policies, not before this realizes. I will speak with the GM team to see how we can make this happen.
-
\\o// Thank you Mishka. That was very important. And I see you tried your best to rp it out, but then as it still did not help you asked for help. :thumbup:
Sulaika as Mishka said, we both have tried it. And you know that Raikana was my tabei. I tried all that we can talk from tabei to tabei to say her why Urriro had problems with this article ICly. I had and have no problems with this article OOCly. You and some other chars know why I have this problem ICly. And I know also that this chars will not tell this secret until they have the permit to do it.
I said later to Raikana that I wish to talk to her from tabei to tabei and not to the editor and she agreeded. This talk was planed ICly from me. But sadly I couldn't talk to her anymore, because she deleted her char. :( :o
And what earlier happend between Mishka and Raikana, I read it the first time in Mishka's post here.
-
Woot, bring Raikana back Talad \o/
-
I think the dramas here are over-rated.
Both sides seem to be getting overdramatic about something, that in all reality, never happened (having taken place in a fictitious world et al).
-
I loved the journal, and frankly I think that if a person, who is in the journal, doesn't want his name in it, can't he just RP it with Raikana? Instead of OOC complaining to the GM's ?
-
I loved the journal, and frankly I think that if a person, who is in the journal, doesn't want his name in it, can't he just RP it with Raikana? Instead of OOC complaining to the GM's ?
But the paper is just pure media they have no say whether something about them is in it or not it's very silly and really needs to be discussed properly between the complainer (player who didn't want their name/story in the paper) Raikana, and a reasonable, non side taking, non favouritism, good GM. (Either Marathal or HaniX)
-
Wow sarras, no wonder people call you a sarrasaur, you 'are' a bi***.
no mod has taken care of this yet. so, i guess i can sink to your level as this and your post will eventually be deleted anyway.
i hope you asphyxiate yourself on a furball next time you yiff, furfag!
:P
-
I loved the journal, and frankly I think that if a person, who is in the journal, doesn't want his name in it, can't he just RP it with Raikana? Instead of OOC complaining to the GM's ?
It should be noted that Raikana was telling people that if she didn't get enough people to sign her petition for total freedom of the press she would stop printing the paper even before a GM had ever talked to her. Also it should be noted it was another player who told Raikana and the other player involved in the discussion to take their dispute to the gm-talk IRC channel. It was only after the other player in the discussion did come into the gm-talk IRC channel that the GMs got involved in a in game in an attempt to keep a discussion that was getting more OOC out of the main chat channel.
-
I loved the journal, and frankly I think that if a person, who is in the journal, doesn't want his name in it, can't he just RP it with Raikana? Instead of OOC complaining to the GM's ?
It should be noted that Raikana was telling people that if she didn't get enough people to sign her petition for total freedom of the press she would stop printing the paper even before a GM had ever talked to her. Also it should be noted it was another player who told Raikana and the other player involved in the discussion to take their dispute to the gm-talk IRC channel. It was only after the other player in the discussion did come into the gm-talk IRC channel that the GMs got involved in a in game in an attempt to keep a discussion that was getting more OOC out of the main chat channel.
I can't see how getting signatures is totally OOC. If the rules are stopping people from doing IC stuff then isn't that OOC so really it doesn't make sense to me. It's like the whole grieving rule basically you can't be a bad character, because it can't be IC either, that's a little 'what do you want us to do' run around having the lamest talks ever, get drunk in a tavern? I like good and bad RP, and a little of the buzz of creativity.
-
I loved the journal, and frankly I think that if a person, who is in the journal, doesn't want his name in it, can't he just RP it with Raikana? Instead of OOC complaining to the GM's ?
It should be noted that Raikana was telling people that if she didn't get enough people to sign her petition for total freedom of the press she would stop printing the paper even before a GM had ever talked to her. Also it should be noted it was another player who told Raikana and the other player involved in the discussion to take their dispute to the gm-talk IRC channel. It was only after the other player in the discussion did come into the gm-talk IRC channel that the GMs got involved in a in game in an attempt to keep a discussion that was getting more OOC out of the main chat channel.
I can't see how getting signatures is totally OOC. If the rules are stopping people from doing IC stuff then isn't that OOC so really it doesn't make sense to me. It's like the whole grieving rule basically you can't be a bad character, because it can't be IC either, that's a little 'what do you want us to do' run around having the lamest talks ever, get drunk in a tavern? I like good and bad RP, and a little of the buzz of creativity.
And their is always going on strikes thats how african-americans, got their rights, they sat down in front of office buildings, stores, they did marches, ect, and even though cockasians beat them mercillesly, they wouldnt fight back, and eventually got their way.
Yes kids, complain long enough and you get what you want :)
-
I was hoping this would die out or get moved. It hasn't, so I'll vent some as well.
There's no point in doing something if a GM tells you not to. And there's no point in getting mad about what a GM tells you. What you can do is expose your displeasure in the right place (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?board=55.0) and then choose if you like the response or not.
Raikana actually did most of that right (though she missed the right place to post this) since she got an answer she didn't like and so she got going. Wise gal.
I do agree that the rule here should be the general "ignore if you don't like it" from the bothered players' side. I also believe that the GM in question seemed to overreact (though not as much as Raikana) by talking of banning in a vulgar, silly situation... Still, there is no reason at all to invoke the desecration of democracy, freedom of speech and the human race on this gaming environment.
-
I was hoping this would die out or get moved. It hasn't, so I'll vent some as well.
There's no point in doing something if a GM tells you not to. And there's no point in getting mad about what a GM tells you. What you can do is expose your displeasure in the right place (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?board=55.0) and then choose if you like the response or not.
Raikana actually did most of that right (though she missed the right place to post this) since she got an answer she didn't like and so she got going. Wise gal.
I do agree that the rule here should be the general "ignore if you don't like it" from the bothered players' side. I also believe that the GM in question seemed to overreact (though not as much as Raikana) by talking of banning in a vulgar, silly situation... Still, there is no reason at all to invoke the desecration of democracy, freedom of speech and the human race on this gaming environment.
Agreed! :)
-
Comparing players on a free video game to the civil rights movement is really going too far. And this whole thing sounds like it was a straw man scenario from the beginning.
-
6*250= 1.500 tria +
4*720= 2.880 tria =
_______________
4.380 tria
Hope your reporting is more accurate than your math, ;D
(23:32:21) Venorel says: "So are we in agreement of 6700 for 4 issues ads plus one sack of this issue of the Journal and no contetss trings?"
(23:32:27) Raikana says: then it will be more easy for you to sell
(23:32:47) Venorel nods
(23:32:58) Venorel takes a swig from the bottle
(23:33:49) Raikana says: yes! 6700 for the ad and 20 papers (with sack)
(23:33:54) Raikana smile
(23:34:21) >Raikana Plip dropped a Sack.
(23:34:28) Raikana unguard
(23:34:30) Venorel extends her ungloved hand to shake on it
(23:34:38) Raikana says: take it
(23:34:52) >Venorel Weruno picked up a Sack
(23:34:58) Raikana says: very well
There was the 7 or so copies that were bought previous to the IC deal making. So let's say 1750+6700=opps 8450 tria. It would be justified to take the rounding off defence against any accusation of misleading the public at large. :thumbup:
Get over it and back to the presses. ;)
- Nova
-
I see that you don't still get the point. I asked for solutions and nobody are bringing more then more polimics. I overeacted? Yes. Why? To make clear that the paper, if is for EVERYBODY, cannot stop the printings because of a single player.
You say try to RP? I did. By making a signs collection.
Why? Because with an IG authorization from the majority of the players, that should have been enough to publish freely.
But, while i was at it, i've been invited in a group by GM's that told me:
If someone don't want the story to get in the paper, can simply come OOCly and say [Do not publish!]. This seems intollerable to me. I can cover the names, but the story is the story, and that's why there is a NEWSPAPER.
If you don't like it you don't like a paper.
You like something different... assume it.
Comparing the civil rights to this topic seems necessary to me.
Now. Simply. If you want the G&T back, or another paper edited by me, i exposed my conditions in the "super post" i made saturday.
I want a solution. Do someone want it too? Please try to avoid posting here if your intent is not to solve the situation.
@TALAD:
Your words are right. Anyway i see that my point of view is considered "weird" here...
@SANGWA:
Are you the same sangwa that sent me a PM?
-
@SANGWA:
Are you the same sangwa that sent me a PM?
There's only one Sangwa in this game ;)
Well I believe that the paper should be free, you have my signature.
Raikana when you run something big like the paper it take courage to keep it going because you are on the internet and their are people who want to destroy things like that. Keep going and you'll get stronger at it :thumbup:
-
Yes, I'm the same person. I thought you had left though, hence my remark. It's good that you didn't though, since your paper is certainly a fun part of my RP experience.
This signature thing has no actual weight. It's just a waste of time for the players that bother with it. What matters is convincing the GMs and from your words it seems they're not overly impressed.
I believe publishing books against someone's will is rarely a good reason for a ban, unless it's done in a abusive fashion. Same criteria used for trolling: you're only punished if you publish something someone doesn't want published over and over and over again.
I don't think GM rules need to have anything to do with civil rights, freedom of speech and whatnot, since this game environment is (fortunately) controlled. The current modus operandi is clear: don't do stuff that involve other people if they disagree with it. Sounds good to me. If it means keeping some published stuff out of this paper or that... Well, not a biggie. You've made some... 10 issues? This happened only once.
So my solution to the problem is simple: GM's, shouldn't talk bans unless someone is actually abusing (i.e. repeating an offense, being too obnoxious, etc.); Players... Well, you can't reason with those.
-
Just for the information of everyone here is the link to the posted game rule/policy on harassment http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367020#msg367020"> (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367020#msg367020"></a>
Would a single instance of something published in the paper against someone's will be considered harassment? Probably not, would multi cases of printing something in the paper against someone's will be considered harassment? It would have to be looked at carefully by the GM team to determine but the more times something is done by one person that is against the will of another person you are increasing the chances of it looking like harassment)
Would a single instance of something published in the paper against someone's will be considered harassment? Probably not, would multi cases of printing something in the paper against someone's will be considered harassment? It would have to be looked at carefully by the GM team to determine but the more times something is done by one person that is against the will of another person you are increasing the chances of it looking like harassment[/url]
-
This discussion is perfect for these forums ... much ado about nothing. The thing to do would have been to keep publishing the paper, if one is actually committed to the game, and document closely all history and contacts relating to the paper and its associates. Bringing in concepts of civil rights here is moot, this game is not a government, there is no mandate being given by the players to this game, it is a private system, and you have no expectation of "free speech" or rights on this system. Enough of that particular red herring. That being said, to cause such a furor over something that only might happen maybe in the future is a waste of time for everyone involved. Deleting a character based upon supposition, projection, and possible future problems looks to be overy dramatic, insincere, and fabricated. Is this what you were planning all along? Raise a non-existent issue and then try to get as much attention as possible from it by making a big scene about it and dramatically delete your character? Enough.
-
Verden... apparently you are talking about something you don't know... or you are very offensive for nothing... ::|
Bringing in concepts of civil rights here is moot, this game is not a government, there is no mandate being given by the players to this game, it is a private system, and you have no expectation of "free speech" or rights on this system.
Not in the game system. In the game... inside! If you prefere let's say IG or IC. (even if the otharchy is a conservative regime, there is no reason to don't introduce the fight for free speech INGAME... many players are agree!)
That being said, to cause such a furor over something that only might happen maybe in the future is a waste of time for everyone involved.
Again:
1) I have been obstaculated in past on the doing of the paper, and i've been obstaculated just before of my decision to delete the char.
2) Is a matter of principles.
Deleting a character based upon supposition, projection, and possible future problems looks to be overy dramatic, insincere, and fabricated. Is this what you were planning all along? Raise a non-existent issue and then try to get as much attention as possible from it by making a big scene about it and dramatically delete your character? Enough.
Oh my god.
You look like a real Sherlock Holmes!
Did you found out all this plan alone or someone helped you out?
I'll pass over on your offence, cause we are here for solutions, but if you have some doubt about the fame of the journal just ask to a player... if you play of course.
I will not justify myself against such a ridiculous insinuation.
PS: I want to let clear that, if i'm still here talking, is for the GOOD people i met ingame. Only for them! If i was not asked to do it, i would have leaved this place and the people like YOU Verden, since the first day of Raikana's delection. If i'm still here is not for YOU Verden. Is for the (many) good people of the game.
-
Okay, so if you can't handle the rule that if someone OOC says no to a rp, to stop it, then you should think about your intentions. Why making it all so dramatic? Do you think all people will come to you now and say, please don't print this and this? No!!! But you don't see the other people that are wanting the newspaper, that all does not matter to you and you just see one person saying no and now you think your newspaper is dead. That's totally nonesense. If I were you, I would respect the no and just continue with the good work. Wow what a drama for just such a little no! Really think about it, it is just one person that said no please do not print it. Sorry if i sound a bit bad, I don't mean it bad. I just want you to think about it again, why can't you respect the no? Take care. Sulaika.
-
Probably there's more in all this mess that we don't know about it, so it's simply useless to add more wood into the fire.
-
I've never met any of the creatures involved, but from reading the whole thread it seems clear that there was an issue ingame and a GM (innocuously perhaps) decided to bring out the "ban" word while discussing the problem. Judging from Talad's response, it seems he gets this. This issue should not have been an issue - and in fact with the right GM (the only one I know who is sensitive and smart enough to do it is Eliseth, but I certainly don't know them all) it would not have been an issue.
Some of the players here are high strung (ahem, I play Karenina and am totally so). In order to keep good ones like Raikana, you just need to have GMs who know how to de-escalate. Sounds like that discussion is going on behind the scenes, I'm really surprised and glad about it.
Raikana, never met you but hope you return. I don't play much these days but I think it must have been awesome to have a newspaper and maybe a bit of a gossip rag ingame. Darling idea, I do hope you go back to it and with pleasure too. My favorite people seem to like you very much (hola Ear, Roled, Dan, Nina curtsies and hugs you guys). When I play again, I will try my best to do something newsworthy.
Impressive resolution, frankly. Cheers to all.
-
If one is here for the "good" players, then there is no reason to stop publishing the paper. The "good" players won't interfere with you, or report you to the GM for something you say about them in the paper. Probably only the "bad" players will do that. And there doesn't appear to be any indication that you were actually told by the GMs to not publish the paper, correct? So... whether you find it offensive or not... this is much ado about nothing. Go in game and keep publishing your paper. If your concept of "free speech" doesn't include the opinions of people who don't want to be in your paper, then don't put them in the paper and respect them. This isn't a country, it is a private system, it doesn't matter how many people support an idea... the system belongs to those that develop the game. Don't like that answer? Guess what, there is no political way to change the system so you'll have to get your own game. But on another note, as I have played for about 6 years now I can say that there have been quite a few other newspapers in game to this time. Not one of them closed down because of issues of "free speech" or due to GM conflicts AFAIK. Go in game and publish your paper, or stop worrying on about it on these forums. Nobody made you delete your character. Sorry if any of my statements are blunt, but they are blunt without personal rancor.
-
:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
I'm starting to be wordless.
I explained and explained and explained... this is becomming terrible and i'm becomming to be tired after a whole week of free insults. X-/ X-/ X-/
I can't understand how some of you can be so blind.
@Sulaika:
If i did not get mad for this, this would never change. You still associate the normal rule of harassment to the newspaper and by doing this you show up only your superficiality. Drama? Excluding 1 day lastweek, when all this started, i spent a week here wit the maximum calm to explain all to everybody... where is the drama? So you considere drama the fight for getting more accurate rules? Do you think your commentary is useful? Try to give solutions. Retroactive considerations are not useful now. The past is past. Let's make the future!
@Jeniandre: My wish is to return. I'm glad you are among the people that understand my struggle about "IG free speech" and about modifing the harassment rule to avoid a single person to stop the printings of a newspaper that serves LOTS of players.
@Verden: This isn't a country but is a comunity. And rules can be adapted according to the new realities of the game. Anyway your solution is: Shut up and go on working or leave? How am I suppose to do it happily in these conditions? If this is your solution, i've heared it.
Now. I will make the last request to the STAFF of the game.
Can we adapt the harassment rule by adding something about "RPs that represents many players cannot be stopped by a single player, unless they are offensive, false ecc..."?
I just need to know if YES or NO, or at least WHEN and HOW it will be discussed by the STAFF?
Is a simple request with no dramas (no dramas Sulaika) and for a good cause, for this paper and for the future papers.
To make an example:
"If i organize and event with 20 people. Than come a player and say [don't do it]. I think the other 20 can simply ignore that player, withouth fearing the "harassment"."
The same concept is for the paper, that has not 20 but more then 50 subscribers and another big ammount of occasional readers.
Please i need an aswer from someone authoritative like Talad or so. Most of the Masters are not "allowed" to think, so they go on repeating the rules, repeating the rules, repeating the rules, etcc, etcc, etcc... to the nausea.
As i said this is my last request. If i don't get an official answer i will not bother you again. :flowers:
-
Can we clear up one misconception that her been repeated in this discussion several times? I just reread the log of the group discussion with Raikana. There were 4 GMs in that discussion and Raikana. At no time did any of the GMs bring up the word ban in that discussion. The word ban was used three times during the discussion and all three time Raikana brought up the word herself. A couple of times I mentioned the fact that there is a rule against harassment ( see the link I provided a bit earlier in this thread) and I said if we got complaints from players then we would have to look into the situation and see if what happened was harassment and if it was do something to stop the harassment.
Raikana I will repeat what I said in the previous post where I provided the link to the rule against harassment.
Would a single instance of something published in the paper against someone's will be considered harassment? Probably not, would multi cases of printing something in the paper against someone's will be considered harassment? It would have to be looked at carefully by the GM team to determine but the more times something is done by one person that is against the will of another person you are increasing the chances of it looking like harassment
-
I knew Sarva, that you was going to repeat, repeat and repeat the same.
Sorry but "probably not" in not enough. We need to adjust the rule.
PS: Sorry if i correct you but the paper never wrote AGAINST someone. Just ABOUT someone. This is totally different.
-
Please i need an aswer from someone authoritative like Talad or so. Most of the Masters are not "allowed" to think, so they go on repeating the rules, repeating the rules, repeating the rules, etcc, etcc, etcc... to the nausea.
-GMs are authoritative and probably know more about the status of things happening in game. They have the authority to moderate IG for us
-Talad and most of the devs are busy working on debugging the new release.….I wanna go to Amdeneir!!!!
I knew Sarva, that you was going to repeat, repeat and repeat the same.
-Sometimes the GMs have to repeat rules and repeat and repeat and repeat in different ways because it obviously takes time for some players to learn them
"If i organize and event with 20 people. Than come a player and say [don't do it]. I think the other 20 can simply ignore that player, withouth fearing the "harassment"."
As Sarva said a single instance of one player not wanting you to do something -for a OOC reason- wouldn’t be considered harassment as I understand the rule.
So as I see it
"RPs that represents many players cannot be stopped by a single player, unless they are offensive, false ecc..."
Is already a YES answer , you don’t need Talad to come and confirm the rules that people have been already telling you about
-
As Sarva said a single instance of one player not wanting you to do something -for a OOC reason- wouldn’t be considered harassment as I understand the rule.
He said "probably"... and it's very different from "wouldn't".
The request still stands: I need someone more authoritative ensure me that. ENSURE IT. Not "probably", "maybe", etcc...
-
Nova marvels how common sense is not so common.
-
An attempt to de-escalate on the thread. Sarva, repeating what you said before caused more bad feelings. I suggest staying clear, as you seem to be making it worse.
Raikana's precise question is different from how most people are forming it. She's quite clear about wanting the newspaper not to be banned by a disgruntled player. Her RP is a good one and it's a valid concern.
I think other people who are trying to say she shouldn't bother the staff or who repeat things that have been said before (or tell her to get over it, never helpful) should go troll another thread. I have one to suggest, it's by Roled and it will wish you a happy holiday and a one month vacation.
Ciao...and Raikana it's better for your health to not reply to people who are just trying to stir you up again. If the 4 GMs were behaving in the same way that Sarva is, which is to fail to see clearly the player is upset and has a valid point, then I understand how this thing happened. For now, wait until a staff member who has some diplomacy and kindness gets back to you. My impression is that Talad is looking into it, that's better than anything. Don't read the people who don't understand, you've done enough to try to get them to understand your point (and they don't, they act as if you'd like to publish everything and anything, as opposed to that you want to keep your newspaper going within reasonable constraints but not subject to threats from players who may disklike you OOC).
Now I will take my own advice and get off this thread. Happy holidays creatures....
-
I think everyone made his points, and this is becoming just a repetition of each one's positions.
There are three fundamental points:
1) The GM team does not stop a "potential" writing or event just because a player complains about it with us. This has never been done, and will not be done in the future.
2) The GM team has the right to check any writing, post, event, or else to consider if it may be detrimental to the game, to other players or to the social rules of good behavior. This is done in any case, and anyway, even if you write 1 million pages of text in here :) This is crucial to moderate the game, and we will always do this in protection of the players all, including you Raikana, in case there will be a situation in the future which involves you, specular to this one.
3) All people in the GM team knows well the distinction between IC and OOC, and if someone wants to play an evil characters, that's permitted, under certain limits. The same is true for a paper, or a writing or a saying. The limits are defined by common sense, and ultimately by the GM team.
To summarize I suggest to settle down this matter, leave the judgment to the writer to publish the paper as was conceived or with modifications, and allow the GM team to do what he thinks is right after reading the paper. I also suggest to speak with a GM as little as possible. GMs are OOC and they do not exist in Yliakum. They should intervene only in very rare cases. Forget the GM team even exists, and they will do their job and you will leave your alter ego life without any interruptions.