PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Sangwa on January 02, 2011, 02:51:27 pm
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I think it'd be lovely if there was a tool that would allow players to test their stats amongst themselves. Stat tests would have 2 aspects: self tests and opposed tests. The results would be shown in all the surrounding players' system tab at the chat box, stating only what characteristic was tested, the difficulty of that task and its result.
I'd propose the following way of handling this system (considering maxed stats are 200 and that the system should be as simple to implement as possible):
Single Character Tests:
/test <characteristic> <difficulty> -> A 210 die is rolled. If the roll is bellow the characteristic tested then the test is successful.
(Since 200/210 = 0.95, than this means Maxed players have 95% success for normal circumstances.)
Opposite Tests:
/optest <characteristic> <target_player> <difficulty> ->Target Player gets the chance to reject or accept test; System rolls a 65 die for each player. The value of the roll is added to the characteristic's rank. The two sums are compared, the highest one wins.
(Since 65/200 = 0.325 than this means that luck influences 30% of the outcome.)
Test Difficulty:
Test difficulty virtually adds or remove "ranks" from a player's characteristic (the one that uses the command, always.) I've named them after the type of challenge they are associated with:
Trifle: +60 (+30% Single Test)
Very Common: +40 (+20%)
Common: +20 (+10%)
Normal: 0
Demanding: -20 (-10%)
Very Demanding: -40 (-20%)
Complex: -60 (-30%)
Test Outcomes
There should be 4 types of results:
Success (won by a margin larger than 10%)
Close Success (won by less than 10%)
Stalemate (Tie)
Close Failure (same logic with success)
Failure
This should help make evident that events that are less than trifle shouldn't even be tested, and just auto-accepted.
Why should this be implemented?
In a RPG game, there is usually a way of testing characteristics to decide the success of actions that are not predicted in any other system (like the fighting system and the falling damage system.) In PlaneShift it'd be nice to have this feature as well and I doubt it would be too hard to implement it as I've mentioned. The system I advise to use would still keep player's characteristics unknown (since only the result would be shown), while turning outcomes visible (which is what matters.)
Such a tool would greatly value the stat system, since players would start making more use of their skills and stats rather than walking around them all the time.
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interesting... but how could you know how difficult a task is? just by consensus?
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Exactly. The other players will see which difficulty you chose. In PS roleplaying is done in a consensual basis (i.e. you have to agree to duels, to being stolen, to any player on player interaction).
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first: I don't see a point in testing others. they can just do /test skill difficulty themselves (given test would publicly announces what was tested against which difficulty and what's been the result similiar to roll)
second: could you better explain how that should actually work?
Self Tests:
/test <characteristic> <difficulty>
->System rolls a 210 die. If a roll is bellow the stat tested then the test is successful (95% success for maxed players.)
->Information is displayed
that sounds very specific and as such I don't see a point in adding it at all tbh
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I see what you mean, like opposite tests would depend on each player testing himself and then seeing which got successful and which didn't. The problem with that, is that it might take too many dice throws for levels that are too close. If your question was another, then I can say opposite tests need to exist in circumstances like arm wrestles, dexterity games, etc, challenges when two players' stats are challenged against each other.
I've edited (well, will right away) so you can better understand it.
I hope it's better explained now.
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hm, ok, got where your numbers are coming from now. yet I wouldn't make those static, but instead definable by some mean (first because the maximum for stats is 400 and 200 for skills, second because people may not want to use that hard limit)
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Couldn't there be a very simple way of doing this? I have though about the example of arm wrestling before and had a system set up. To improve the system I had it would have been nice to have something like a /show command where you could show another player what your strength is. So the two players who are going to arm wrestle show each other their strength then each player rolls a die based on their str. so if my str is 100 and you are 200 str I would roll a 100 sider and you roll a 200 sider and who ever gets the higher roll wins.
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Well, that would be nice as well, Sarva.
The only problem is that it still incites people into forming even more niches (as in what type of rolls they use). And while we're at that, the answer is the same for rlydontknow. The statistics don't have to be the ones I've mentioned, since you Developers are the ones who set relativeness throughout the game (like it's done with fighting, crafting, etc). Still, the way I see it, it's better to create an universal system rather than a "Choose your own", so as to generate as little noise between players as possible.
I do agree it's a whole lot better to have it as Sarva said than to not do it at all. (Though in that example both should roll a 100 sided die, or Luck has too much weight :P)
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Here was my take on this concept, if anyone is interested:
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray/index.php?task_id=2767
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Couldn't there be a very simple way of doing this? I have though about the example of arm wrestling before and had a system set up. To improve the system I had it would have been nice to have something like a /show command where you could show another player what your strength is. So the two players who are going to arm wrestle show each other their strength then each player rolls a die based on their str. so if my str is 100 and you are 200 str I would roll a 100 sider and you roll a 200 sider and who ever gets the higher roll wins.
arm wrestling isn't based on luck. bad example.
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Everything is based on luck Sarras. Two Arm Wrestlers in the same level can go at it and witness different results each time they arm wrestle. Like in any other game.
Verden, your example seems to be even more extensive than mine. This extensiveness is what is being criticized by the Developers here.
Also, if Max is 400, it's a simple matter of doubling the values I presented there.
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What I posted there was an extensive spec of the concept, as I think its better to reduce an idea down to what is minimally necessary, rather than start with too little. But the basic idea amongst all of these suggestions is that mechanical functions that support better roleplay in game would be welcomed by many players, whatever the final form of the implementation might be.
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Verden, your example seems to be even more extensive than mine. This extensiveness is what is being criticized by the Developers here.
don't get it wrong, it's not the extensive, it's too specific
instead, I'd propose something more generic - e.g. /test <stat/skill> <difficulty> <cap> would be less specific as it makes it more open for the player(s) to specify how much luck/whatever would influence the test
then similiar to roll it could announce something like "character name succeeded/failed/whatever the test for some skill with difficulty x and cap y"
that way there aren't really any specifics implied making it usable for a wider range of applications imo
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Yes, boil it down and take what is useful. I think any effort in this area would be appreciated by many.
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RlyDontKnow, it'd be awesome if it was done like that. I'm not sure what these different applications you have in mind are, but considering we have many players, I'm sure I'll find them out.
Like Verden said, any effort in this area is a great one.
PS: I've proposed a specific system mainly because the two P&P games I played seemed to use it. I think the Difficulty Modifier accounts for the place luck has in the action (higher modifier, less luck involved), but maybe I'm missing some other uses for the tool.
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So, if I get it straight…
Nowadays, RPer's do fights by rolling /roll <stat_lvl> (for example, to dodge a hit, /roll AGI). But, since people can lie with that, you propose the system does it for you? With player-set stats? (I don't use maxed stats, even thought I do have them maxed with Mish xP)
Well, good luck, you got a dev interested. I think this wish can be granted Soon™.
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Normal 'RPer fights' should be done by using /challenge or whatever the command is. Though some players enjoy scenic fights, where they can use whatever system they prefer.
The purpose here is not just for fights, but for different types of actions. For instance (since pickpocketing isn't implemented) one player could test his agility against the other's agility [or will, depending on what you consider to involve that type of perception]. In the system Rlydontknow speaks of, you'd take roll turns until one wins and the other loses. And yes, these rolls would accurately involve the stats the player has, therefore leaving no space to lies.
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Everything is based on luck Sarras. Two Arm Wrestlers in the same level can go at it and witness different results each time they arm wrestle. Like in any other game.
doesn't this system allow the weaker opponent to win, though, even against a much stronger opponent? it's like a child having the possibility of beating an adult powerlifter. doesn't seem very realistic.
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Not in the system I mentioned with opposite tests. If you make luck just 25% of the max value, a maxed character will win most of the times, unless he is paired against someone around his level.
To illustrate:
Let's say we have a 100 str character and a 400 character. 400 character will always win if we consider that 100 is the luck throw (100/400 = 0.2 = 20% of max value is considered luck)
Stat + Roll = Sum
100 + 100 = 200
400 + 1 = 401
Only a character with 302 or more could win a character with 400 and then it would be pretty hard. Considering dice rolls are independent (i.e. one doesn't influence the other, which is what happen in PS) this makes a probability of 0.01*0.01=0.001=0.1%. Very hard to get:
302 + 100 = 402
400 + 1 = 401
This also means luck has more weight for weaker, less trained characters. Which makes sense. If you're not as trained, this means that luck has more influence in your results. Either way, if it's done like Rlydontknow or Sarva says, you can even adapt to the situation. You can decide the amount of luck involved with the "cap" parameter, or by choosing the roll.
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Well, good luck, you got a dev interested. I think this wish can be granted Soon™.
heh, indeed :D should be expected "soon™"
got the c++ part mostly done, however I'll have to extend the mathscript functionality a bit to get it working properly (as we just decided to make the actual test script customizable by the server maintainer)
anyway, there'll just be the possibility to test yourself for now, so for the arm wrestling I think each player could test itself against a certain difficulty or something like that, not sure. maybe there'll be testing others later, but it's a lot more complicated than just testing yourself :x
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Yup, both players test themselves at the same difficulty and with the same cap, until one of them is successful and the other isn't. It's pretty good!
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Yup, both players test themselves at the same difficulty and with the same cap, until one of them is successful and the other isn't. It's pretty good!
or just one wins by a bigger margin (will go for the >+10%, >+0%, =0%, >-10%, <-10% for now)
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Yup, if the throw results are shown. That would fail in keeping the ranks secret, but that's a minor thing.
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Yup, if the throw results are shown. That would fail in keeping the ranks secret, but that's a minor thing.
not the exact results, but some lingual representation of them (like xyz almost did it instead of "had 95%" or whatever)
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I like it, I think we should implement this.
I was thinking of two cases.
1) One person (potentially the organizer of the event) can ask for a test, for example "check on strength against 150 value". The player will then issue a command like /test strength 150 . The server will roll a dice on strength and see if the player manages to roll equal or higher than the value specified (this means than the higher his strength is the easier the roll will be for him). The resulting message will be: "Rly tested his strength against 150 and succedeed".
2) Test your stat against another player. In this case the target will receive a confirmation message if he wants to perform the test. He can refuse to do so. The command will be "/test strength Talad", this will ask the server to roll two dices, one for you and one for Talad and compare the results. The higher wins (again also in this case the one with higher strength has more chances to win).
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I proposed something close to this in tracker report 2767 or 2768 quite a while ago. Stats contest as well as a saving throw command for testing against skills. I believe I was accused of wanting to implement a completely parallel and redundant combat system. But commands to enable roleplay are needed on the system.