PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: bbum on May 27, 2003, 07:19:20 pm
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i dont really know what you guys listen to but heres somthing im working on
first-trance.MP3 (http://www.freewebs.com/bbum/first-trance.MP3)
i would right click, save as if i were you.
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I think you should continue to model... That\'s something you can probably do better.
Not my style, sorry.
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Greetings,
E.
P.S. It has almost driven me up the wall.
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ill definatly keep modeling... musics just somthing i like alot.
im going to be uploading some more soon, and that is my only techno song, maybe one of them will be more your style
if your not into techno you should check out some trance, orchastra instuments are sounds of the olde!!
this is the symphony of 2003
trance is great, if you actully listen to it, it will move your emotions up and down, make your soul fly, most people wouldnt give the time to listen though, but if you listen to a whole trance song you should feel somthing, even if you dont like it, i dought mine is anything like this though
btw, just curious, what is your style?
beat01 (http://www.freewebs.com/bbum/beat0001.MP3)
beat02 (http://www.freewebs.com/bbum/beatsample.MP3)
and heres some nice trance (not mine)
voyage - yahel (http://www.freewebs.com/bbum/Yahel%20-%20Voyage.MP3)
(right click save as)
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Originally posted by bbum
ill definatly keep modeling... musics just somthing i like alot.
Wise decision... :)
Originally posted by bbum
if your not into techno you should check out some trance, orchastra instuments are sounds of the olde!!
Well, they may be old. But there are SURELY some masterpieces around those. Just listen to Dvorak - New World Symphony. That is the one I like the most from classical music.
Originally posted by bbum
this is the symphony of 2003
trance is great, if you actully listen to it, it will move your emotions up and down, make your soul fly, most people wouldnt give the time to listen though, but if you listen to a whole trance song you should feel somthing, even if you dont like it, i dought mine is anything like this though
btw, just curious, what is your style?
Strange. I have listened to all your musics, but I cannot say I like them. (BTW. the download speed is awfully slow. Is it you? - 1 kByte/sec)
My style? Well, listen to this, and decide yourself :)
projekt_k8-night_of_fire.mp3 (http://www.projekt-k8.de/musik/projekt_k8-night_of_fire.mp3)
Nightwish_-_The_Riddler.ogg (http://bigbrother.vac.hu/~einstein/music/Nightwish_-_The_Riddler.ogg)
(Delete it within 24 hours, etc.)
Listen to both, I have listened to yours too!
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Greetings,
E.
P.S. (Will be long a bit)
It was NEVER my intention to attack anyone by any means. But I tend not to speak about something I don\'t know much enough. I don\'t know anything about modeling for example - I simply don\'t know how to do it, never used any modeling program (apart from Valve-Worldcraft). So I don\'t criticise any 3d work, as I don\'t exactly know how hard was it to make, how much work was it. I just don\'t wish to razz others\' work. Maybe you can also try to do it this way?
BTW. CS is not a little opensource project - it has nearly 50 developers. Is that so little? And you are right. It will not have specular lighting. The new renderer ALREADY has it.
Why don\'t you take a look at the screenshots on the CS website (http://crystal.sf.net). Also, look at these:
http://bigbrother.vac.hu/~einstein/renderer/car3.jpg
http://bigbrother.vac.hu/~einstein/renderer/ppl_fullmonty_barrels.jpg
http://bigbrother.vac.hu/~einstein/renderer/shadows.jpg
And this video. It shows the commercial Meqon physics engine\'s features, but they used CS for 3D, and it shows the new renderer\'s features too:
http://meqon.com/movies/constructionsite.avi
Maybe these will convince you...
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still downloading your work bbum....
I listened to your musics elminster, I didn\'t like the first one that much, it sounds too \"artificial\". it usually doesn\'t bother me since I love oldschool mods and occasionnaly listen to trance or that kind of stuff, but mixing it with voices and guitar just sounds weird to me.
Also I love the girl\'s voice and the violins (or whatever it is), but I hate the guy\'s voice...
The second one is very good (dunno why but the intro reminds me of Toshinden :) ) I\'m going to search for more stuff from Nightwish.
Originally posted by bbum
if your not into techno you should check out some trance, orchastra instuments are sounds of the olde!!
this is the symphony of 2003
Originally posted by elminster
Well, they may be old. But there are SURELY some masterpieces around those. Just listen to Dvorak - New World Symphony. That is the one I like the most from classical music.
I don\'t agree, those intruments are still used nowadays. I \'m not a big classical music fan (I downloaded New World Symphony but I\'m not in the mood right now, maybe I\'ll listen to it tonight), but I do love those instruments in more modern music, or in movies, animes and video games. You might love trance, but I think you have to admit you can\'t make a soundtrack with only trance or techno...
And if you want to know what stuff I like, here are some of my favorites.
VGM / Anime composers :
-Yoko Kanno (Cowboy bebop, Escaflowne, Wolf\'s rain)
-Yasunori Mitsuda (Xenogears, Xenosaga)
-Chris Huelsbeck (Turrican series, Tunnel B1)
and I love ZOE 2nd runner main theme, called \"Beyond the bounds\", but I don\'t know who composed it.
Others :
-Dr Awesome
-Solas
-Lacuna Coil
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Originally posted by BlueScreenJunky
I listened to your musics elminster, I didn\'t like the first one that much, it sounds too \"artificial\".
...
Also I love the girl\'s voice and the violins (or whatever it is), but I hate the guy\'s voice...
Why? It sounds just fine - but the woman\'s voice is indeed better - or higher at least :)
Originally posted by BlueScreenJunky
The second one is very good (dunno why but the intro reminds me of Toshinden :) ) I\'m going to search for more stuff from Nightwish.
I have 5 albums from them :)
Not all is good, but there are some nice... like the above.
BTW, thanks for listening. And listen to Dvorak sometime - it is a masterpiece!!!
Strange. I have never even heard of those artists you mentioned :(
Maybe I will look them up the net.
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Greetings,
E.
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Strange. I have never even heard of those artists you mentioned
would have been useless if I had mentionned those I like and everyone knows eh ? ;)
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elminster, do you get that render means it has to be rendered... which means it cant be in game.
now it could just be a missuse of words in these posts, since im way to lazy to check the cs site.
and i didnt mean to bash old orchastra sounds, im actuly a huge fan, but man, when you listen to some trance...
and some of the best music ever composed can be found on consoles... snes has a few legendary composers, im planning on making a few remakes with new sounds, since i can import midi files and mess with them
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If you want emotions then you should try New-age instead.
Just click the \"play\" button ;)
http://www.live365.com/stations/moonshea2u
You can try this too, it\'s the best of consolegame-music. It has all kind of styles. In my opinion the best station there is. :)
Note: It\'s not the original MIDI-versions.
http://www.live365.com/stations/dj_moogles_t1
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Originally posted by bbum
elminster, do you get that render means it has to be rendered... which means it cant be in game.
?(
I don\'t get this. I am not native english.
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Greetings,
E.
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if you could host this 5 meg file on a faster server, I would listen to it :)
I don\'t wanna download 5 megs at 1kb/s
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elminster, render is like a technical term. the kind of computer graphics you see in movies or in video game cut scenes has to be rendered, when your playing a game, its activly rendering while your playing.
so thats why cut scenes can look so much better than the game, because its all pre-rendered for hours then put into a movie file format, or picture.
and yeah ... download speed really really sucks, but i didnt realize unitl after i uploaded it
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some of the best music ever composed can be found on consoles
Agree on that
/me is going to listen to Castlevania : Symphony of the Night soundtrack :)
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Originally posted by bbum
elminster, render is like a technical term. the kind of computer graphics you see in movies or in video game cut scenes has to be rendered, when your playing a game, its activly rendering while your playing.
REALLY? Are you sure? Well, what do you know... WOW. 8o
I never even heard about this \"render\" word in my 4 year programming carreer, and 2 years of 3D programming.
You surely know something.
Originally posted by bbum
so thats why cut scenes can look so much better than the game, because its all pre-rendered for hours then put into a movie file format, or picture.
To be serious:
It is not the word \"render\" what I don\'t understand. It was your SENTENCE. I am a programmer, and I know quite a few things. So the word \"render\" is quite familiar for me.
You are talking about 2 different things here. Rasterization based rendering and ray-tracing. They are TOTALLY different. I don\'t want to begin with writing the differences, as this post would get a bit long...
And cut-scenes can still be in 2 forms: one type which uses the game engine to render, the other simply plays a movie file, which contains a ray-traced scene. So cut-scenes NOT always look better, and NOT always faster. The first case only has predefined information about camera movement, actor movement, etc. and the game engine still has to do it in real-time. While the second case is done with a ray-tracer.
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Greetings,
E.
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Rendering just means drawing.
Scenes can be pre-rendered or rendered in real-time.
CS has a software renderer, an OpenGL renderer and a new OpenGL renderer under development. It is this new renderer that has all the shader stuff in it.
- Venge
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ok i know this was way p on the thread but i got reply to this
Originally posted by BlueScreenJunky
You might love trance, but I think you have to admit you can\'t make a soundtrack with only trance or techno...
YES YOU CAN! Fight Club, the entire sound track was done by the dust brothers. it was amazing, techno the whole way through!
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Originally posted by Vengeance
CS has a software renderer, an OpenGL renderer and a new OpenGL renderer under development. It is this new renderer that has all the shader stuff in it.
I pray it will be ready soon. It looks so cool - I can\'t wait to see what it can do. :)
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Greetings,
E.
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Originally posted by LordSpyder
ok i know this was way p on the thread but i got reply to this
Originally posted by BlueScreenJunky
You might love trance, but I think you have to admit you can\'t make a soundtrack with only trance or techno...
YES YOU CAN! Fight Club, the entire sound track was done by the dust brothers. it was amazing, techno the whole way through!
Oh ? next time I watch it I\'ll try to pay attention to the soundtrack. Very good movie btw.
And bbum, I downloaded your track... Honestly I didn\'t really like it, but I realize it\'s a first try, and I don\'t really like the genre. I\'m more into stuff like Prodigy, Propellerheads, chemical brothers or FSOL (I don\'t even know if that\'s techno, but that\'s how people around me call it :) ) so I guess you shouldn\'t be discouraged by my opinion.
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elminster, ray-tracing is an effect that can be turned on or off when rendering, its not a type of rendering itself, its not even very usefull with other options available, in my opinion.
and im not sure what that Rasterization based rendering is about but i havent heard of it... maybe it has somthing to do with the programming??
I know about the 2 diffferent types of cut-scene, i refering to when the game leaves out of its game engine and goes to a prerendered movie file.
read what venge and i said, its like the same thing
and my question was \'elminster, do you get that render means it has to be rendered\'
and you said \'I don\'t get this. I am not native english.\'
i was just trying to tell you... but i guess you know all about it now..
---i take that back, i guess it could be considered a type of rendering, but it certainly doesnt decide whether is ingame, or the quality of it, simply a way to make shadows.
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Originally posted by bbum
elminster, ray-tracing is an effect that can be turned on or off when rendering, its not a type of rendering itself, its not even very usefull with other options available, in my opinion.
My God...
What you said here, sounds in 3D graphics, like saying \"Metal is made out of wood\" would sound in real world.
You should educate yourself a bit about 3D graphics, as it seems you are at a very low degree. I will show you some sites, where you can begin from the ground, because I don\'t have the time to explain what is ray-tracing (telling yourself a modeler, you should now about it btw).
Head on to http://www.povray.org and you\'ll find some info there.
Here are a few direct links:
http://www.povray.org/documentation/view/4/
http://isc.faqs.org/faqs/graphics/raytrace-faq/part1/section-2.html
However, for advanced people:
http://www.geocities.com/jamisbuck/raytracing.html
Originally posted by bbum
and im not sure what that Rasterization based rendering is about but i havent heard of it... maybe it has somthing to do with the programming??
About rasterization:
Look at this site: http://arturmarques.com/tutorials/opengl/opengl_intro.htm
#4 Rasterization - here are produced frame buffer addresses, refering to bi-dimensional descriptions of primitives. Each fragmented produced goes to the per-fragment operations.
Here is something easier:
http://library.thinkquest.org/C006208/data/multimedia-rendering2.php
I\'ll write here, what you need:
Triangle setup is done by all video accelerators, and this involves the breakdown of each polygon into horizontal strips called spans based on what textures they use. This stage on is also refered to as rasterization. Each one of these spans is then sent individually to the next pipeline stage.
Originally posted by bbum
I know about the 2 diffferent types of cut-scene, i refering to when the game leaves out of its game engine and goes to a prerendered movie file.
read what venge and i said, its like the same thing
Nope. The difference is that you haven\'t said anything meaningful.
I\'ve already said a few times: don\'t write what you are unsure about...
One last note: sentences are usually started with a CAPITAL letter. But I don\'t know if that sais you anything.
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Greetings,
E.
EDIT:
Originally posted by bbum
---i take that back, i guess it could be considered a type of rendering, but it certainly doesnt decide whether is ingame, or the quality of it, simply a way to make shadows.
Nope. You should really read, what I showed above.
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this is what i gathered from those websites
\"What is Ray Tracing?
Ray tracing is a method of generating realistic images by computer, in which the paths of individual rays of light are followed from the viewer to their points of origin. A ray tracer is any program that implements this method. Since ray tracing makes use of the actual physics and mathematics behind light, the images it produces can be strikingly life-like, or \"photo-realistic.\" \"
in other words, its a nice tool to make shadows, (although id disagree) i almost always have ray tracing turned off in my scene, unless im putting shadows in the backround, because there quality is useally pretty low.
and according to that website, Rasterization is part of the process that opengl goes through when processing
data ( like a scene ),not a type of renderer. this process only happens for games, which is what you ment, i guess
im not sure what you ment by my words wernt meaningfull but... this is what i ment
\"Scenes can be pre-rendered or rendered in real-time.\" -venge
\"the kind of computer graphics you see in movies or in video game cut scenes has to be rendered, when your playing a game, its activly rendering while your playing.\" -me
i think thats pretty similar...
i swear to god ray tracing is just another way to make shadows... i dont know what else to say... its the truth
lets see..... im at a very low degree?? your damn right im at a low degree, i dont have any degrees im 15 years old... i dont know much about programming and i might not know how to spell or how to use puncuations and i probly spelled that wrong but i know about maya damnit and i know enough to know that ill have a pretty damn strong portfolio at 16, and thats what counts for me right now
---thought id make a quick demonstration of the effects of ray tracing. www.freewebs.com/bbum/teapot.JPG (http://www.freewebs.com/bbum/teapot.JPG)
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wow, you added a shadow :) how neat
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my point exactly, and its not even a good one.
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Originally posted by bbum
in other words, its a nice tool to make shadows, (although id disagree) i almost always have ray tracing turned off in my scene, unless im putting shadows in the backround, because there quality is useally pretty low.
\"Ray tracing is a method of generating realistic IMAGES by computer\"[/I]
IMAGES (i.e. pictures on monitor) - not shadows.
Read again your own quote.
Originally posted by bbum
and according to that website, Rasterization is part of the process that opengl goes through when processing
data ( like a scene ),not a type of renderer. this process only happens for games, which is what you ment, i guess
Exactly. That\'s why I said rasterization BASED.
Originally posted by bbum
i swear to god ray tracing is just another way to make shadows... i dont know what else to say... its the truth
NO, it is not. Ray tracing is a METHOD for creating IMAGES. Just read, what you quoted yourself above.
Originally posted by bbum
---thought id make a quick demonstration of the effects of ray tracing. www.freewebs.com/bbum/teapot.JPG (http://www.freewebs.com/bbum/teapot.JPG)
That WHOLE image is RAYTRACED! Every pixel of it is created by the method: called raytracing.
I don\'t know how else to say: raytracing is a METHOD, a CONCEPT, or whatever to create a WHOLE IMAGE. Not ONLY shadows.
HEY, I think I\'ve got it:
In real world, there are different methods for regular image creation: Picasso-like painting, pencil-drawing, painting with tempera, painting with oil, drawing with coloured pencils, printing, etc. -- Lots of METHODS.
You have to imagine RAYTRACING as a METHOD among others. But in the computer world, there are 2, which is the most common: raytracing, and rasterization-BASED (usually accelerated) 3D drawing
I hope you see the difference now.
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Greetings,
E.
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thats not the whole sentence... the whole sentence is :
\"Ray tracing is a method of generating realistic images by computer, in which the paths of individual rays of light are followed from the viewer to their points of origin.\"
heres a quote from the advanced website, \"ray tracing allows you to create several kinds of effects that are very difficult or even impossible to do with other methods (Foley, 782). These effects include three items common to every ray tracer: reflection, transparency, and shadows.\"
those also happen to be the only 3 options for ray tracing.
im sorry but ray tracing isnt in that first teapot picture.
ray tracing is a tool, i dont care what kind of degree you have, it can be turned on or off freely, every pixel is not ray traced, or every image or whatever...
read those websites...
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I give up......
The website: \"Ray tracing is a method...\"
You: \"ray tracing is a tool...\"
(Heaven and Earth)
You are hopeless. Maybe you are too young yet.
Maybe one day, you will understand.
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Greetings,
E.
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swear to god ray tracing is just another way to make shadows...
I might be wrong cause I don\'t know much about ray tracing, but I think it doesn\'t only cast shadows (that would only be projected shadows, like in DooM3 for exemple), it\'s also used to do all the lightning : instead of gouraud, lambert, phong or whatever, you only use ray tracing to determine how each surface will be lighted, which is much more accurate, because they can receive light from the light source, but also from reflections on other objects.
It can also deal with transparency, in real time we use Environment mapping, which is very inaccurate or cube environment mapping, which is better but still can\'t do some things you can do with raytracing. For exemple take a glass sphere : You can see what\'s behind, but it will be kinda distorted, you don\'t need raytracing to do that, cube envmap will do it perfectly. Now put this sphere on your desk, and a light bulb next to it... Can you see that little light spot on your desk ? it\'s smaller and brighter than if the sphere were\'nt there, this you can do only with raytracing.
So raytracing\'s most obvious usage is for shadows, but it\'s not the only one.
Elminster, when you say it\'s a rendering method, do you mean it doesn\'t even use polygons ? I mean since the begining of the demo scene we see those ray traced spheres (used to be prerendered, now it\'s real time) are they like \"perfect spheres\" ? or are they still made of lots of polygons ?
if they are perfect spheres then I agree it\'s a whole \"rendering method\", else it would only be a \"lightning method\".
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Thank you BSJ! :)
I needed some help.
Originally posted by BlueScreenJunky
Elminster, when you say it\'s a rendering method, do you mean it doesn\'t even use polygons ? I mean since the begining of the demo scene we see those ray traced spheres (used to be prerendered, now it\'s real time) are they like \"perfect spheres\" ? or are they still made of lots of polygons ?
if they are perfect spheres then I agree it\'s a whole \"rendering method\", else it would only be a \"lightning method\".
Well. Ray-tracing CAN use polygons. BUT: as far as I know, high-quality ray-tracers (for movies), like POV-RAY uses CSG - Composite Solid Geometry (I hope CSG is the abbrev. of this). It describes (well, what do you know): geometry :) So, a sphere can be a CSG to be a \"perfect\" sphere, BUT it can also be approximated by polygons. A ray-tracer can handle both.
For high quality images and movies, modelers use curves and patches or whatever. You probably heard about \"bezier-curves\". In the OpenGL, and rasterization based rendering world, these curves are APPROXIMATED by polygons. The description is a curve, but the video card gets polygons. BUT in the case of a ray-tracer, it is not approximated. The ray-tracer gets it as a curve.
Specially, \"spheres\" are the most common geometry in the ray tracing world. These geometrycal building blocks can be added, substracted, etc. For example, to form a bowl, you can use a big sphere, then \"substract\" another one from it, which\'s center is a bit above of the original sphere.
But, it is NOT polygons, what differentiate ray-tracing from rasterization-based methods (i.e. to make it a different \"method\" ) Ray-tracing works ABSOLUTELY differently. Would you like to hear about it? I can write about it, but this post would get too long. Would you like me to write into a post about it? I think I will into the next one.
BTW, there is a project going on: http://www.openrt.de
They are working on a real-time ray-tracer. Check the movies and images. THAT ray-tracer is special: it renders polygons only (not sure about it), to make it faster. BUT, it is still a different method.
I hope I could help, or make things clearer (or foggier :) ).
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Greetings,
E.
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by perfect circle, or curves, im guessing you guys are refering to nurbs surfaces, mayas ray tracer can render with polygons, nurbs, or subd
bsj, that is from quote from alittle earlier, i found later that its used for shadows, transparency, and reflection.
ray tracing IS NOT IN EVERY IMAGE i dont know what your talkinb about elminster, its obvious ray tracing only deals with light by reading that website.
\"The description is a curve, but the video card gets polygons. BUT in the case of a ray-tracer, it is not approximated. The ray-tracer gets it as a curve\" -elminster
a scene modeled in \'curves\' will NOT work with opengl, trust me i modeled a whole scene once and then it couldnt be used cause i didnt know the difference. it can not just read it in polygons, i dont know where you got that, but a nurbs surface cant just be read as polygons, it has to be created that way, or converted in the 3d program used.
ive been playing with ray tracing since we talked more about it, i found its good for creating shadows that draw out more the farther they get away from the object. (and i dont know any other way to do this) so i guess ray tracing can be kind of helpfull.
but ray tracing is not in every scene, every rendered image, or whatever you were saying, im sorry, it doesnt matter how old i am, the website tells what ray tracing deals with. and what bsj and I are saying are the same....
\"The website: \"Ray tracing is a method...\"
You: \"ray tracing is a tool...\"
(Heaven and Earth)\"
whether its a tool or a method doesnt make a differece, its the same thing isnt it??
thats not the argument, im trying to tell you that ray tracing deals with light, your saying its a whole type of rendering, and that its what you see when you see aything thats not ingame. ( if you check the ealier posts, that is what it was about....)
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actually, everything takes polygons. They just take different numbers, and in different manners. bezier curves use calculus to find the slope of the line at different points, where the rays bounce. this is like having a very large number of very small polys. Game rendering uses low polygon modelling, where surfaces are approximated with far fewer polys.
\"i guess ray tracing can be kind of helpfull. \"
Kind of? KIND OF? it\'s the only really good way to create a lifelike scene, since it renders by following the reflections of light from true lightsources around the scene to the viewer.
Now, you are probably working with one material per surface. but there are other things. caustics, displacement maps, opacity maps, bump maps, and many other things can combine to create very realistic images. these change the light levels, color, angle, and when well used can be quite important to creating realistic images.
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/gallery_view.php?photo_id=243&screen=0&cat_id=2&action=images
is a good example.
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/gallery_index.php?screen=0&action=images&cat_id=2
is the brazil r/s gallery. all are examples of what can be done with raytracing. now compare that to any in game image. still think it\'s just \"kind of\" helpful?
opengl isn\'t a raytracer.
as for raytracers getting curves, NOTHING uses curves. everything approximates with polygons. any raytracer dealing with curves is using calculus to find the slope of a tangent line, then using the plane it creates at that point to make the reflections. it uses polys, but the user won\'t see that. it also uses a LOT more polys, and they are a LOT smaller.
Raytracing deals with light, but not just shadows. it deals with ambient light, diffuse light, reflection, refraction, internal refraction, highlights, color changes, diffusion maps, bump maps, displacement maps, environment maps, other types of texture maps, all of which combine to change the image and make very realistic scenes. Yes, it deals with light, but so does everything else. after all, images and video are percieved through the EYES, which, surprise surprise, detect light. EVERY rendering deals with light, that should be obvious. most pre rendered images are likely to be raytraced, since that looks better.
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ray tracing is not the ONLY way to create realistic shadows and reflection effects. I find d-map shadows much more intuitive, look at the difference in options.http://bbum.netfirms.com/options.JPG (http://bbum.netfirms.com/options.JPG)
\"ambient light, diffuse light, reflection, refraction, internal refraction, highlights, color changes, diffusion maps, bump maps, displacement maps, environment maps\" I can use all of those effects without any ray tracing.
\"NOTHING uses curves\" thats not true, nurbs surfaces use curves, and \'curves\' is sometimes used as a word instead of nurbs. when making a nurbs surface you can draw something in curves and convert it into nurbs. - http://bbum.netfirms.com/cup-revolve.jpg (http://bbum.netfirms.com/cup-revolve.jpg)
you have to copy/paste to see pic.
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ray tracing is not the ONLY way to create realistic shadows and reflection effects
No, it\'s not the only way, but it\'s the most accurate, since it doesn\'t rely on tricks to fake the final effect (like reflection mapping does, in example), but instead calculates a more physically-correct light path.
Using refmapping to fake reflections or shadowmaps to have fast soft shadows are common things when dealing with prerendered imagery, specially in animation, when every per-frame rendering time reduction is welcome.
When accuracy is more important than speed, then you start using raytracing as a tool of choice. Don\'t think raytracing is limited to the classical shadow /reflection /refraction effects: it comes handy whenever you need to be able to take samples around your scene in a wider way (using in example different BRDFs) and you don\'t need to limit yourself only to the points you are directly projecting on screen. Correct blurred reflection, ambient occlusion, correct translucency are just examples.
There seems to be some confusion about the \'nothing uses curves\' sentence. Yes, the modeling software can use curves and surfaces instead of polygons: I am referring to the mathematical representation of your object if you are in example creating a nurbs model.
But for efficiency\'s sake this mathematical representation has to be later converted into something else in order to be represented on a screen: the method of choice usually consists in approximating it with a polygon mesh, which is tasselated more densely in accordance to how much you must get close to the theorical surface representation.
So bbum, yes, you are modeling your glass with a revolved nurbs surface, but what you see is just a mesh approximating your model (you\'re in maya, so hitting 1-2-3 will show you different degrees of approximation).
I will not say it\'s impossible to directly deal with surfaces during the rendering process: it\'s just less efficient at the end.
high-quality ray-tracers (for movies), like POV-RAY uses CSG - Composite Solid Geometry (I hope CSG is the abbrev. of this).
Ahem, sorry, but POV-RAY, with all the respect I have for a product that was the first renderer I had in my hands quite a few years ago, s not exactly a movie-quality raytracer. Main issue: efficiency. You just can\'t deal movie-quality frames with its speed and memory management. A better example of raytracer would have been Mental Ray, but it also tasselates surfaces at the end. Other famous renderers, like PRMAN, while offering superior-quality surface representation and displacement effects, just rely on a different tasselation method, called micropolygon tasselation (or dicing).
This is all for now.
b
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Boonet, I\'m not sure what you just said... but YOU RULE! :-)
- Venge
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hmm i think ill take a closer look at ray tracing effects...
---about making a polygon mesh to control or animate detailed surfaces, thats awsome, i just went over that yesterday.
and im not sure what you mean by that revolved cup being a mesh aproximate, i think pressing \"3\" is the form it will come out as when rendered, and \'2\' and \'1\' are there to help preformance, althought it doesnt really help that much, a polygon mesh is much more efficent.
but the main point i was trying to get across is there is somthing besides polygons, and that ray tracing isnt in every image and doesnt define cg quality
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bbum
when you press 1,2,3 you are just tasselating your mesh more densely in your viewports. It has no relation at all with what you will render: that option is just there to help you maintain interactive framerates when working around more and more complex scenes or to have an approximated but better pre-render idea of how your rendered object will look when rendered. \'3\' is not conceptually different from \'1\' and \'2\' : it just creates a denser mesh, which is, in parenthesis, generally not detailed as the rendermesh. To veryfiy the difference, go in shaded mode+wireframe over shaded, select an object and after a ctrl-A check the checkbox that shows the render tasselation. You will see how much more detailed the render mesh is when compared to the viewport shaded mesh. Of course you can make it even coarser by playing with the tasselation attributes, but this is not the point of the discussion.
there is somthing besides polygons, and that ray tracing isnt in every image and doesnt define cg quality
Well, I can hardly disagree with this ;-)
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Originally posted by bbum
ray tracing IS NOT IN EVERY IMAGE i dont know what your talkinb about elminster, its obvious ray tracing only deals with light by reading that website.
And may I ask you, my dear friend, what do you see with your eyes? Let me answer: ONLY LIGHT!
About curves and approximation: it is up to an algorithm in the engine (or somewhere) to approximate curves. It depends on the algorithm, how accurate the approximation is.
I suggest you, bbum, to read PeregrineBF\'s and especially boonet\'s posts carefully, as they are both home in this area.
Originally posted by bbum
but ray tracing is not in every scene, every rendered image...
Again, I can only say: learn some biology, then tell me what do your EYES sense...
Originally posted by bbum
there is somthing besides polygons, and that ray tracing isnt in every image and doesnt define cg quality
Well, indeed. What I see on my monitor, usually doesn\'t contain ray-tracing. Nor the pictures, painted by Van Gogh. :)
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Greetings,
E.
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is this what your saying elminster? light is in everything, and since ray tracing only deals with light, ray tracing is everywhere or somthing? is that how you figure ray tracing is in every image? i dont get it.
boonet: im now wondering how to see the true form of my nurbs surface in the pre renderer haha. although its never caused a problem for me, it seems like a serious isue all the sudden.
and did you know you can set your own \'1\' \'2\' \'3\' values in the toolbar at any density you want? i sure didnt, but thats a pretty awsome feature.
---p.s. do you use 3dsmax as well as maya?? thats alot of knowledge... i have a hard time finding certain tools in 3dsmax that i already know in maya, so i just try to stick with maya.
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Huhm... if the point is about what your eyes really see, then saying everything is raytracing is a nice approximation. But reality is even more than this, just think about diffraction and interference, which are not usually taken into consideration within computergraphics.
Conversely, when talking about CG, raytracing is just one technique to render an image, but not the only one. The other, absolutely popular for its speed, is the scanline rendering.
So it\'s totally possible to create rendered imagery without raytracing.
I must admit that modern renderers use an hybrid approach, using scanline rendering until secondary rays are needed, and switching to raytracing only on objects that need it.
But still, depending on your scene setup, you may easily avoid to use raytracing.
Bbum: heheh yes, I had seen that option for the 123 keys; actually there are even some more exotic things you can do when playing with the displaySmoothness command (not that I would really like to do them ;-) )
I use MAX exclusively to finalize PS stuff that I did in Maya, since I really hate MAX ;-) Please, no flame war on this: it\'s just a personal preference based on how productive and comfortable I am when using the 2 different packages.
What to say: I\'d suggest you to stick with Maya, since its knowledge has a higher market value if you plan to do CG professionally.
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hey man, i didnt know you used maya, i thought you used 3dsm, thats awsome, i thought i was the only one who thought maya was the future, not many in the gamming scene use it.
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hehe yes, I use Maya everyday... :)
Hey, look that Maya is one of the most diffuse 3D softwares around, and many games have been and are being developed using it. Nvidia also released some plugins to test, use and create CG shaders within Maya, so this tells something about Maya\'s role ;-)
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And now for something completely different...
Whoa.
This started as a musical related thread and now I can\'t understand a word of it. :) Seems like a computer graphic is simply not my cup of tea.
Anyway, if you are still interested in music, check this:
http://george.seven.cz/music/lament.mp3
Feedback very appreciated.
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Hey man, is that yours? youve got a real talent, i mean holy shit, hook yourself up with the ps devs or somthing. make some more and get a resume together? send it around
ive never tried to make anything calm like that, and not in umm... like loop form, i guess... i dont know to much about music k? mehhhhh some day ill try it.
edits- hey do you have any more?? respond!!!