PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Lady Crankenstein on May 24, 2011, 07:40:40 pm
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Let me be honest up front. I HATE QUESTS.
I LOVE RP... and questing is the "ANTI - RP" ... considering what I make in on hour, I am willing, right now, to donate real money to the project if only they would allow for another way to gain access thru that door.... one that does not involve endless running around, Critical Access Quests that do not trigger until 647 other quests have been done.... good GAWD man, take all your quests and make another game and call it "Frustration Fanatic Free For All !" ... and let those of us, who value quality time with friends online, to simply have access to all the same areas. My credit card is in hand right now.
With my time mostly taken in RP, 2012 will come and go.. and we shall all die in the deep of cold space and I sitll wont have Winch access, or a Rivnak. Do you want that on your conscience??
Ok, seriously... This questing feature is what i have to "Warn" people about who are interested in this system. Please , understand, on the RP server, it is very counter productive.... and to me , an offense.
Lady Crankenstein
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If you like RP and hate quests why do you need Winch access?Anyways I can give you a spoiler website link.
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I decided to answer here because I had some similar thoughts sometime ago... actually I had been reading posts of some older players claiming the game is not rp-friendly enough and such stuff. And its true many things could be tried to give players more freedom to control the way they play and their rp scenarios better, as a better way to create rp items instead of books or performing animations at will.
But despite all that Planeshift is still a video game, not a board game. Players can't have the same omnipotence and variety of choices they have in a DnD game. That is because not everyone plays planeshift the same way, some people grind, some others rp, some do both and would be bored if there wasn't a challenge as quests to do and skills to level. And the game needs to have a solid substance and rules to keep all these different people together.
Besides, if you rp all the time you are online and do nothing else you could just adapt your character to the situation and not enter the winch (as the only things to do there is train skills and do quests, you rarely meet people). Regarding the game's story not everyone is meant to enter after all, They must first prove themselves to the octarchy and if they don't then they just won't let them in.
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I think the main issue is, you have to have winch access to get a mount. Unless you want to pay to go everywhere, or at least one of the cities. But there are times when you travel in the wilderness, that having a mount would be more realistic....I believe anyways.
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I certainly understand your frustration, but at least you have a sense of humor about it that made me lol for real.
The Winch access might not be necessary to enter for rp'ers, but still, it is visually a nice area to see and to rp inside of. I personally hate the idea of closing off areas to players until some insane series of mind numbing torture is endured. For that matter, nearly all of the training and leveling in PS feels like torture to me.
Isn't there some way to make it actually fun? I don't even mind if it takes a long time as long as it could be fun. Instead of the constant moving of items from box to box to train cooking or metallurgy or even mine etc., why not make it into some kind of game within game? Why couldn't training be something like a tetris or any other simple game where your score could add to your level of skill or experience learned? Just my random thoughts.
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You think its bad now? You really should have tried questing back in about 2005. You probably wouldn't believe how things have improved. Quest system is not nearly done though.
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The fact it used to be worst doesn't mean we can't improve it again...
And it doesn't mean one can't find it bad now.
I'm pretty sure quest should (and maybe could) be both more challenging and fun to run. Currently, most of them are about going from A to B then to C then back to A as so forth, with NPCs telling you exactly what to do. A courier job, sure, but not funny nor entertaining.
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Double posted while trying some spelling edits. My bad....
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My feelings lean a little bit towards anti-quests and my character does not have winch access. She does not have a mount saying that she is holding off until she can have the same ride as Talad used during his appearance in Hydlaa Square some cycles ago; a Pterosaur. She is pleased to ride on one occasionally when passing from city to city; yet the chance of ownership should see her without winch access unless training becomes a factor. RP works for her too being a Priest rank in the Brotherhood of Talad.
My style of RP works better on foot. My style is not to go racing off after ooc tells. My character has almost completed the needed quests and had fun deliberating what ones she would and would not do for political reasons. They helped shape her character a bit in my mind.
The real question seems to be, Why does one need a mount? That is meant as a redundant question and it is not meant to disrespect those who have answered that and worked for a mount.
- Nova
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The thing about the Winch is, it is IC'ly closed off to people, IC'ly only People who are RICH, Are 'very' well known merchants, or have a really high place in the social system, [Meaning Being a higher up in the octarchy, or haveing vital connections to them]
So it 'SHOULD' be hard to get into Winch, But I suppose the Option to buy, or bribe your way in could be plausible, it would have to cost a hell of a lot though, mabey 1/2 to 1 mill [yeah that might not be a lot to some :P]
Also, how everyone always complains about not haveing mounts, its pathetic, I have both a mount, and plenty of cash, to go fly somwhere, but I dont, I walk back and forth between oja and BD for no reason at all, other than to just waste a little time. If yall are 'so' lazy, to hold down W or the up key, for mabey two minutes, then you should probably be getting some exorcise, not playing PS.
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the only good thing I can say about quests is that it was through doing quests and asking for help on them ICly that I learned how to RP and met other players early on.
yes, I have a rivnack, his name is Max, he's the only familiar I actually use, and very rarely, whenever Ara feels like going for a ride. She casually walks EVERYWHERE she goes, and I love her for it.
Icerra hasn't done a single quest.
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I must confess that I did a lot of quests before I learned roleplaying with other players. Might be related to my former experience with SP-RPGs only (namely the Gothic series), I was just used to it.
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The fact is you can't "pay" your way in. It's meant for rich and famous people. Characters with a name. That's why getting into the winch is hard.
Yes, I also get bored as hell doing those quests but I don't see they really hurt RP. It's an area for the highest people in Yliakum, so that's why it's closed for "average" characters.
Just imagine asking IRL if there's another way to join the Bilderberg Group without fame, influence or money :p
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The fact is you can't "pay" your way in. It's meant for rich and famous people. Characters with a name. That's why getting into the winch is hard.
Yes, I also get bored as hell doing those quests but I don't see they really hurt RP. It's an area for the highest people in Yliakum, so that's why it's closed for "average" characters.
Just imagine asking IRL if there's another way to join the Bilderberg Group without fame, influence or money :p
it'd still be nice if you wouldn't really have to get in there for rather common tasks like getting a permit signed. personally I think letting someone bring it there for signing (be it an NPC or a PC) and then handing it back to you would do just as well.
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Or training weapons. Why the heck would the weapon masters be inside a merchant's place?
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I agree with RlyDontKnow and Sangwa. If it would be possible to give pemit to someone to get signed; and also about the trainers. Although I think there should be some payout quests from NPC's inside, they are merchants (thet got the money :P )
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"I LOVE RP... and questing is the "ANTI - RP" ..."
I really disagree with this statement. I think questing is simply role-playing with the game, with the world and story that the Devs have worked so hard to create for us to enjoy.
I'll admit, it would be great to see more player-character merchants and merchant guilds with whom anyone could run errands (quests) for and earn money and items, but I think with the progression this game has made (I first played it back in 2005, the Crystal Blue era), that's not all that far away. In fact, it's already begun to an extent, with advertisements for guilds/players wanting to buy items from players.
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At least for mounts the only reason you need Winch access is to pay your taxes for the mount. The signing of your permit is basically a way to show you have paid your taxes for your mount. Since the tax collector isn't located in the Winch it would make more sense to me to have people see the tax collector to pay their mount taxes and get their permit signed. Having a mount does make the running around to do quests a bit easier. To give people a break in getting a mount I say change the mount quests so that people need to deal with the tax collector instead of needing Winch access.
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License fees are not usually paid to a tax collector, that doesn't mean one of the functionaries in Iragdun's office near Kada's could not collect the fee but the main reason for having it in the winch would seem to be to force people to do more quests.
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Winch access seems to have some issues with the recently added quest chaining. Apparently there used to be 3 quest lines to get winch access. And apparently 2 of them now need winch access to be solved...
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
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Having a mount makes especially those hillarious quests easier which are required to get access to the Winch... :P
Recursive problems are sooo Murphy. :P
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So, iwth the latest update to the questing system we have at least 80% odf the quests in "Chains". this complicates things even more.... I know because I am in the middle of it right now. It appears that some quests in a chain may also be part of another chain that crosses over and through the chain I am on ... which means to complete this one... I have to go start and complete that one... So, it appears to me that the chains are actually a WEB.
Let me share some simple truths that I have learned about entertainment :
1) just because a developer spends endless hours creating something, does NOT make it entertaining. ( I am a composer and performer, I know about this very well )
2) Entertainers / developers are NOT the best person to determine what is entertaining.... the AUDIENCE IS.
3) Go into any bar where folks are dancing... are they EVER dancing to the NutCracker Suite?... no.... because complicated is not what the public relates to.
4) Complicated puzzles filled with zingers, stingers, teasers ending with disapointment ... is not fun ... it sounds much more like revenge.
5) are you proud and laughing at how complicated all this for your audience?.... do you really think they are laughing with you?
RP is the best here for me because the people make it so... not because we run so many many many mamy times back and forth back and forth back and forth back and forth back and forth ... who ever thinks THAT is RP... will never understand what RP is.
La Crank
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But questing is fun, guys. Do you know that quest where you're sent from the Bronze Doors to Hydlaa to pick up a book, but then sent to Ojaveda because someone there has said book, only to find that in the dungeons under the Laanx Temple a thief has it because they stole it from Ojaveda? Then you must run back to Ojaveda to return the book so they can read it for you to return to the library and get a copy of it to bring back to the Bronze Doors to the original flipping person who asked you to get the book in the first place?
Yeah. I love that quest.
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Please , understand, on the RP server, it is very counter productive.... and to me , an offense.
I wouldn't consider it an offense so much as an annoyance, but yeah, questing takes up a lot of time that could be spent roleplaying. It's pretty rare to find the help with quests that you need ICly.
The Winch access might not be necessary to enter for rp'ers, but still, it is visually a nice area to see and to rp inside of. I personally hate the idea of closing off areas to players until some insane series of mind numbing torture is endured. For that matter, nearly all of the training and leveling in PS feels like torture to me.
Isn't there some way to make it actually fun? I don't even mind if it takes a long time as long as it could be fun. Instead of the constant moving of items from box to box to train cooking or metallurgy or even mine etc., why not make it into some kind of game within game? Why couldn't training be something like a tetris or any other simple game where your score could add to your level of skill or experience learned? Just my random thoughts.
If it's at all possible, minigames would be great in PS. Perhaps something that'd make fishing not feel exactly like mining...heck, stop mining from feeling like mining - it's the most mind-numbing aspect of PlaneShift! As for training and leveling, most of the ways I can think of to make it more fun come from the gameplay in other MMOs - even WoW players were getting bored with Wrath of the Lich King, but now in the latest expansion, you actually have to pay attention in fights. I'm not saying add don't-stand-in-the-fire mechanics and combat pets and spec trees that'd probably take twenty billion years for a team of volunteers at the rate PS is updated to make functional, but it'd be nice if there was more to grinding out a level of insert-weapon-here than hitting our normal stance hotkey with q1 weapons in hand and then making a sandwich in real life while our character does all the work.
The fact it used to be worst doesn't mean we can't improve it again...
And it doesn't mean one can't find it bad now.
Agreed. Remember playing with sticks and rocks and walking uphill both ways through a mile of snow to get to school? Yeah, we don't get to complain now because hey, our grandparents had their own problems back in the day.
My feelings lean a little bit towards anti-quests and my character does not have winch access. She does not have a mount saying that she is holding off until she can have the same ride as Talad used during his appearance in Hydlaa Square some cycles ago; a Pterosaur.
They're supposed to be so expensive only merchant families can afford them aren't they?
The real question seems to be, Why does one need a mount? That is meant as a redundant question and it is not meant to disrespect those who have answered that and worked for a mount.
Why does one need a car?
But I suppose the Option to buy, or bribe your way in could be plausible, it would have to cost a hell of a lot though, mabey 1/2 to 1 mill [yeah that might not be a lot to some :P]
Oh yes, great idea, trade hours and hours of questing for hours and hours of mining...we'd all have such fun with that.
Let me share some simple truths that I have learned about entertainment :
1) just because a developer spends endless hours creating something, does NOT make it entertaining. ( I am a composer and performer, I know about this very well )
2) Entertainers / developers are NOT the best person to determine what is entertaining.... the AUDIENCE IS.
3) Go into any bar where folks are dancing... are they EVER dancing to the NutCracker Suite?... no.... because complicated is not what the public relates to.
4) Complicated puzzles filled with zingers, stingers, teasers ending with disapointment ... is not fun ... it sounds much more like revenge.
5) are you proud and laughing at how complicated all this for your audience?.... do you really think they are laughing with you?
RP is the best here for me because the people make it so... not because we run so many many many mamy times back and forth back and forth back and forth back and forth back and forth ... who ever thinks THAT is RP... will never understand what RP is.
Indeed, except for one thing: Some of us enjoy the complicated puzzles...I say leave a few of those in, but not for the "neccessary" quests for say, mounts or access to areas with trainers...just for sought-after items or interesting lore (though if you go for the latter I suggest hinting that all you're gonna get is a story, since some players might feel jipped with that).
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Indeed, except for one thing: Some of us enjoy the complicated puzzles...I say leave a few of those in, but not for the "neccessary" quests for say, mounts or access to areas with trainers...just for sought-after items or interesting lore (though if you go for the latter I suggest hinting that all you're gonna get is a story, since some players might feel jipped with that).
but it isn't a puzzle, it's just difficult, needlessly difficult. there's nothing to "figure out" in way of solving a puzzle. The quest chains are seemingly random. The only way to "solve" the chain is to systematically go to every npc and blindly do quest after quest until that ONE quest that you were really after is finally unlocked. no rhyme or reason to it.
as it stands, if a player wants to gain winch access, and they go to the winch gate, there's a sign that says "speak with Raithen". so the player trudges to the BD only to find Raithen has nothing to say. That right there is the tip of the whole convoluted iceberg. There should be some dialogue available like "Can you tell me how to gain access to the winch?" at which point the NPC can give you a list of people to help out to gain his trust to give you access.
THAT, dear friends, would be LOGICAL, REALISTIC, and IMMERSIVE. It shouldn't be a blind shoot in the dark.
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IMHO The core problem is that the chains lack their connection. You often dont know where the chain goes on and basically have to do all quests aviable in hope to unlock the next quest towards your goal. Then at some point you have done every but one quest aviable and have to recheck everything again. And so on.
Another problem, two times i spent 2 evenings trying to find the right quests and failed. Finally consulting a kind GM who lookd things up and - 2 times a bugged quest was the problem.
These issues can and will be solved but at the moment it can really be tedious.
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Quests lack flow. That's simple enough. They can easily be altered, yet for some reason no one likes to edit previous works. My example is with the Holy Script quest that Sharven gives. That quest has been around for like a decade (no exaggeration), and not a single thing has changed with it except for the utility to choose what answer to give to the NPC's instead of handtyping them. It wouldn't be too difficult, if we're going to be doing chain quests now, to go to the end of each quest as the NPC is speaking and that NPC says "Oh, and <insertnamehere> was looking for you. I think he wants help" or maybe "Did you hear that? Oh! <insert name here> is calling for you"...
Now I have to ask: is there a problem with the license where we can't make this easier for the players? Has all the work of Xillix become some sort of taboo to touch, or are people simply reluctant to go into the system, figure out which quests connect to which, and make the player-side of things easier to manage? This same question can be regarded toward quest typos. Once it's done, can it be changed? Cause I see a lot of typos not only in the things NPC's say to me (grammar included), but even the pre-written responses to choose from when answering what the NPC's say to me.
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Dont forget, settings team currently consists of .. one (?) dev only. So dont be too harsh.. The todo list must be huge.
Critics are fine but it can easily become discouraging.
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I.. um... like quests..... :o
RR :detective:
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I agree, Suno. This is where lack of transparency really hurts, or at least really grinds things to a halt sometimes. All this secrecy even within devs or prospects where only a select few have access to everything needed makes it very hard to address everything. If I were to tackle some of this stuff, and I'm not saying I'm volunteering, but who knows, I might.... :whistling:
...I would need to see every word spoken by every NPC to get a sense of each's personality, know exactly how the chains work, then adjust/fix/add/whatever dialog necessary for each quest to be clear yet be consistent to that NPC and the settings. There are what, 200+ NPCs? and over 300 quests? That's a monsterous task for one person or even two or three. But the more people involved the greater the chance for inconsistencies. It comes down to organization and communication. And with a volunteer group who come and go, that gets difficult.
We just need some dedication. From what I hear, drjack is in the process of recruiting. Hopefully that goes well and things can move along soon. And quite frankly, native English speakers would be a big plus. ;)
[/rant]
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The real question seems to be, Why does one need a mount? That is meant as a redundant question and it is not meant to disrespect those who have answered that and worked for a mount.
Why does one need a car?
One doesn't. Transit works fine for me.
- Nova
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The real question seems to be, Why does one need a mount? That is meant as a redundant question and it is not meant to disrespect those who have answered that and worked for a mount.
Why does one need a car?
One doesn't. Transit works fine for me.
- Nova
Then go to the US without a car, walking ;D
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Is that supposed to be difficult? (http://www.wivb.com/dpp/entertainment/travel/Peace-Bridge-easy-to-cross-on-foot-bike)
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Total the amount of time one spends walking around Yliakum doing various quests to answer that question. Then there is the jumping and mobility access thing, as well as the fact that Drifters are damn cool looking. The real question is... why does one need redundant signatures in forum posts?
--Verden ;)
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When I returned to Yliakum a month or two ago I swore I wouldn´t redo all that work. Now I need to talk to Axomir to train, so it seems I have to. I´ve been doing the old guard-way winch quests for a month or more, and then all the guard quests I could find, and all the merchant ones I could find as well to try that way. Still can´t get key quests in the old way, and am reduced to doing every random quest I can find in case it finally unlocks one I need. All the attempts to do things logically based on what I know of the characters and settings have failed. All attempts to avoid doing out-of-character quests are at an end.
You are right in that it is very frustrating. I just want to train Azure way and talk to Axomir about a glyph. A mount would be nice I´m sure, but once I have winch access I won´t need it because I´ll probably never want to do a quest again.
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PS despite all that I do thing that the team is doing brilliant things with quests and I appreciate all the work and creativity. The chains need some reworking is all.
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Then go to the US without a car, walking ;D
Went right across Canada a few years ago on a 30 day train pass; stopping in a number of cities. Not quite the US but a close approximation .
- Nova
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The update to all my ranting is that I did FINALLY get the Winch access ( even wrote a single story post on that ), and now have the Rivnak I wanted so very much.
My conclusion is this : This game is MUCH MUCH better now that I have both the rivnak for riding with friends as RP ( not just a faster way to travel ), and access to a place that I think adds special vistas, places and views that I also have been able to share in RP.
I STILL HAVE NO IDEA why this had to be so so so so dm frustrating to have... and forget me doing another quest. My best suggestion, for new characters, before anything else you do, achieve this first .. and then all the rest of the RP will be so much more for you... if you want to quest as the frustration mongers seem to love, then you can do them so much better as well.
La Crank
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From what I've experienced, I wouldn't put any stock into trying to get into the winch. Just do random quests when you are bored and perhaps you'll stumble into it eventually. There seems to be no rhyme nor reason to what you need to do to get it. Investing in it as a goal will just lead to frustration and make the game un-fun. Do other things for fun, definitely not quests intending to reach this goal.
When factions were implemented, I had thought that they would be used to avoid quest chaining. You could do a bunch of good things for a faction and that would open up more possibilities. As it stands, that doesn't seem to be how it's going. Just the opposite, in fact. I think it would help players to understand the game better if the intentions behind the quest new setup were explained.
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PLain and simple.
Quests Are Easy
Distances are Short
Get yo butt up and walk it.
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The real question seems to be, Why does one need a mount? That is meant as a redundant question and it is not meant to disrespect those who have answered that and worked for a mount.
Why does one need a car?
One doesn't. Transit works fine for me.
- Nova
I'm happy not getting rapped.
I hate quests, they're frustrating, and pointless. I really do think the devs need to look at other games and how they work, because nothing seems to be working in PS at the moment. I haven't seen a newbie last more than 20 hours for quite a few months now.
If 11million people play WoW, they must get stuck in the realism of it. Therefore having minimaps, having their type of quest system, not having PPs, having easier ways to train up levels. Simply works. Now I'm not saying take all of those aboard exactly the way they are but, something needs to be done. I really doubt that there's a future in PlaneShift.
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I.. um... like quests..... :o
RR :detective:
I'm with him, so I guess I'm in the target audience here. :lol:
(Well, if the quests are not broken, of course...)
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A followup for those who are trying this and finding it frustrating: I did eventually get winch access with some help from GMs. The things that everyone should know and which I don't think are spoilers, for the guard way:
1) All the quests really are in some sense relevant. I don't think there were any random ones. This is very important to know because if you don't know for sure that this is the case it is extremely frustrating. I was greatly reassured to discover this.
2) You need to do all quests for all guards and government officials in all of Yliakum.
3) There are nearly 100 quests you have to complete.
I hope this lets people consider trying this and enjoying it as a fun journey and a goal rather than as a huge annoyance.
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Xanthan actually if you know exactly which quests to do there are 37 quests in total to get in the guards way now. Of course I don't think anyone has figured out exactly which quests are needed so there are people doing extra quests.
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That's quite correct, yet most players try to get into the Winch just for a mount. I would not understand complaining about winch access if the reason of the complaint is a difficulty to get to advanced training and advanced glyphs/quests. It does even makes sense, setting wise.
Mounts being available only through the Winch however... not so much. It should not be that much of a privilege to get a simple rivnak. Nothing fancy, no battle steed or whatever. Most of my characters care less about whatever else there is to be found in the Winch area. Just the mount is interesting.
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I think the reason why mounts are recieved in winch, is since most pets revolve around the Octarchal law, I recall one of the books I read, said somthing about only legally being able to obtain one of any given species. I would have to therefor assume that they are recieved only in winch, to ensure each person only gets one of any race. Im sure there are other laws revolving around the mounts as well, animal cruelty laws ect ect..
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winch access isn't necessary to obtain a groffel or yulbar.
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In terms of how we have to play it based on what we know (as players and IC) there doesn't seem to be any option but to do tons of extra quests. It's this need to do all sorts of unnecessary questing that is frustrating players. Having some sense of what is really required would be good. Not specifics, but some general direction. Enough to feel confident that we are on the right track. When it devolves into feeling like you have to do a lot of random things, that's when it goes from being game-like fun to being annoying, frustrating work. Let's hear it for fun!
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winch access isn't necessary to obtain a groffel or yulbar.
The octarchal law has to do with big game, larger animals, note the info on empathy states someday we can get monsters as bets, IE ulbers, rats, tefu's ect, Im sure the octarchy would illegalize owning monsters, at least in cities, they would discourage it, like governments in other games discourage necromancy. Howerver its the big game, drifters, rivnaks, pterosaurs, and any other big mount planned, that they would make sure, only the breeders, would be able to own more than one, if there are such thing as a mount breeder..
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How should traders obtain goujahs for their carts, which are needed to transport goods, if a single person can only have one animal of a kind?
It seems logical to me that the amount of animals needs to be reduced to avoid overpopulation with all its side-effects, yet it seems even more unreasonable to let people carry all the raw ore etc to the city or any given craftsman nearby.
I am quite aware that the economy in Yliakum is a tricky thing, but limiting transport that harsh might choke the wohle system: You can't have it that every member of a trading buisness, from the boy that cares about the goujahs to the wife of the trader buys one animal just to support the four heavy carts with two goujahs each needed to pull them - the resources ain't there, in most of the cases, to buy and maintain a goujah. This could end in a legal mess.
I understand that it is about limiting the availability of the mounts. Making them only available through Winch access looks like a good solution to me - but does it make sense in the world? And I am not convinced of that. ???
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... if you know exactly which quests to do there are 37 quests in total to get in the guards way now.
Isn't a game supposed to be fun?
This is work. And on top, annoying work, because you never know if it pays - means, counts for the goal.
And you wonder why players don't stay?
I should have tried to complete the Winch Way quests with all my chars while it took only a month per char (with that little time I have to play).
Now that I know it will possibly take a year per char (due to not knowing which quests I did for the Winch access, and which I did for waste of time), I don't feel like even starting.
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should have tried to complete the Winch Way quests with all my chars while it took only a month per char (with that little time I have to play).
Now that I know it will possibly take a year per char (due to not knowing which quests I did for the Winch access, and which I did for waste of time), I don't feel like even starting.
It's not as bad as this.
I know that the Mercantile Way is only about 22 quests long.
And as a genereal direction use the titles of the Ways.
I got Winch Access within about 6 weeks, without knowing what quests were needed.
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Actually LigH, before quest chains, you could get winch in a day, at least. The dark way, was only 5 quests, 3 of which you could do at the same time, making it so much faster. [And to get across my point from before walking is NOT the long of a trip] Doin it the BD trip could take 1-3 days depending on how long you want to spend on questing and weather you know exactly which ones are needed or not..
But its not the case anymore I doubt the devs are gonna change it, this game isnt much of a democracy.
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It's not about being a democracy.
It's about playability. If the balancing is bad, no one will play it or rather, the player base will be very, very small.
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there is a way that just need 23 quests done in order to get winch access... most of them are very easy to do... it took my alt two days of questing in order to get a rivnak...
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It kind of helps if you have access to the quest chains, Sarko. Where did you get the magic order? Don't be telling us it is easy if you had a road map unless you can show it to us.
The complaint here wasn't that there are too many, too hard to do, it is that there is no way of knowing if you are even on the right track. Surely if there are going to be distinct paths to the same goal there should be some indication. Perhaps there could be a color coded symbol added to the quest dialog windows so that we do not have to waste time on quests that are irrelevant. Say you decided the symbol was an @, it could be white for guards, black for thieves and green for merchants. For common quests you could use different colors, grey for thief and guard, brown for thief and merchant, orange for merchant and guard and yellow for all three. This would only appear when the particular quest was on offer so that later ones in the chain would not be immediately known.
I suppose that would be too much to ask.
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there is a way that just need 23 quests done in order to get winch access... most of them are very easy to do... it took my alt two days of questing in order to get a rivnak...
;) It's not THAT easy! Believe me, I had the determination and time a couple of weeks ago. I found my experience to be not pleasant. Quite confusing and not easy to follow. I am sure if I had not taken a three year break, I would be up to speed and know where to find the answers, so I am humbled to be able to see this from a newbie point of view.
I used my quest book to keep track of the NPC's instructions to the quests they gave me. I marked which quest linked to which and that is how I discovered that my quest to acquire the rivnak was broken. The NPC that should have a certain option for me to chose, did not provide that option. I tried the lawful way. I decided since that way was broken, I could go the shady way. Not so, as I have a quest now broken there too. I'm not entirely sure at this point what to do. :surrender:
I like Bilbous idea. There needs to be a system in place to help the gamer understand where they are at with their quests.
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there is a way that just need 23 quests done in order to get winch access... most of them are very easy to do... it took my alt two days of questing in order to get a rivnak...
Two days huh. Let me take a guess, you are unemployed/have no occupation and spent 32+ hours questing?
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My two cents. First, I managed to get rivnak in two weeks after ~ 90 quests. :-) Second, the quests here are for sure above average - better then most other MMOs (except I think some long range traveling quests should have tweaked rewards). Third, nevertheless I think I agree that the Winch access is a little bit more hardcore than it has to be especially for new players.
I think we could suggest following (perhaps on fly spray?). 1) Change the winch door description not to speak with raithen, but with percival hawthorne. 2) Create a new quest without prereqs for Percial that would explain how to get in the winch for new players - percival could mention all the three ways and perhaps note which npcs you should see or at least which npc you should see first for every way. With the thing that for the thieves he would tell the player they are suspicous individuals and that does not recommend to meet them. ;-)
Now all of you who were complaining here that you need to do quests to access winch - sorry, but if you don't want to do quests then probably RPG games are not for you - as quests in RPGs are a core mechanics. Planeshift is not only game, where certain areas are restricted until you do certain quests... If in Planeshift you need to do more quests to get somewhere than in other games - hardly - it took me much more time to level up my char in Age of Conan to be able to go to end game areas (and the grind was surely more boring then the quests here). But when I wanted to access the Winch, I was just asking veterans for help - for items I could not get - for quest problems - etc - and they helped me (you know, the feeling when I finally got the signed permit for a rivnak was REALLY good... :-) I felt like I achieved something. )
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I really agree with changing the context of the notice on the winch door. It basically says "Ask Raithen about this" and you cannot ask Raithen about this. I've tried numerous variants of "How do I get access to Winch Area" and he did not understand me (naturally). I would re-consider the reliability of information if it seemed to be put there by a nasty traveller, but it looked like it has been put there by an authority figure. Totally misleading, both IC and OOC.
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I agree with those two points. Although we want to make it at least somewhat challenging to reach the winch, it shouldn't be pointlessly challenging. It shouldn't be hard because you're just guessing which quests to do with little or no direction.
The winch door we can do pretty easily. As for an extra quest with Percival, it's probably not a bad idea. There are a few more pressing projects to get done first, but this is certainly on our to do list. (As is adjusting all the chains to have better information and flow.)
--edit: check that, having the winch door point to Percival would have to wait until we have something with Percival (or whatever is decided). But maybe we can at least remove the Raithen reference and put something else there for now.
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Something generic like "the Eagle Bronze Doors fortress authority"?
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What you guys (the devs) did for the cooking chain, for example, is simply great \\o// and in the long run the key to solving this problem as well. The problem is not that there are quests to do to gain access, and not that there are too many to do. It's just that the ones we have are linked in a way that is simply unintuitive and too hard to follow and find out about.
So guys (all you frustrated ones), give them some time, support in their work, and most importantly some praise for what they HAVE done and achieved. The latter is a much better motivation than the bashing they get for what they haven't been able to do YET. Remember, you have been warned that this all this here is work in progress! ;D
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... give them some time...
:thumbup:
That's my approach to all quests. Just lurch on to one when it rp feels right. Winch access was given to me one day when helping out the sunshine guard. Don't ask me about chains. :)
- Nova
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I understand making the winch access hard, but is it possible to make it easier to get mounts. For example Jardet will get the paper work done for you for a fee say 20k on top of the tax, for those who don't have winch access. This would make all the travelling much easier for doing the quests especially when travelling to bronze doors.
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I am trying to find the Merchants' Way into the Winch with a more or less "new" character.
Before I found out which pre-quests are required to get a golden ring from Toda, I solved already almost 70 other quests. It appears that there is more than one reason to be sent to Ojaveda, not only inside the library.
I think it is possible that I may get Winch access prerequisite quests not before I get asked to have a mount. Who knows. I don't know the relations between quests. Why should one want to access the Winch, except he needs the written permission? I don't know which restrictions to the availability of Winch quest chains was implemented. Maybe you can achieve access without a specific need; maybe you need a quest first which requires your Winch access.
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My main has winch access without any talk of a mount yet. An alt has papers for a mount but no winch access. Hope that helps. ;D