PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Oronec on August 01, 2011, 09:50:23 pm
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No warnings. No heads-up.
I had to hear it from random players on the IRC and in the game - Then go about asking Talad himself if these rumors on the possible removal of the Diaboli race was true.
Hi,
we are going to remove the Diaboli as a playable race, we will post more information on it as soon as we are ready for it. The reason is mainly practical coming from the fact we are not going to develop the model for Diaboli anytime soon, we prefer to complete the others we have, and focus on less but higher quality models. Also the diaboli looks very similar to the Ynnwn race, so the change will not be a big one. We will provide more background in the next weeks depending on how fast we proceed with the removal.
Cheers,
Luca.
First of all, I am not happy.
From my perspective as a Player, a role player, whether the Diaboli get their model sooner or later doesn't concern me. I don't mind role playing my Diaboli with a Ynnwn's model! Myself and many other Players have been doing so since the beginning!
If you want to focus on less but higher quality models - then why do you have two different races of dwarves? Why not remove one of those? The Diaboli are similar to the Ynnwn because the Ynnwn is their mixed offspring! How will there be a Ynnwn race without the Diaboli counterpart? If anything, the lore will only have to be changed more.
"so the change will not be a big one"
Those words erked me the most. Talad, I have not once seen you role play within your own community. I haven't been around that long, but in my time on Planeshift, I have only seen you in game OOCly. With that said, what makes you think that the removal of an entire race will leave no impact on the Players' role plays and characters? It will leave a HUGE impact for those players who built role plays up around the Diaboli race - Hell, they don't even have to be the one with the race at stake: merely role playing with them will have left an impression.
Yes, I unprofessionally went about posting this on the forums for all to see, and
Yes, I am not competent nor do I have the patience to learn how to model and animate,
But I am not going to keep silent when the race - the character - I put equal time and effort in to "creating" and "animating" is just going to up and be removed/changed. If this happens, my character will be gone. If this happens, I will be gone.
Talad, I apologize, but your decision is stupid.
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Talad, please, don't do this.
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I can understand the reason, but I don't agree with it. As Oronec pointed out, the lack of a model doesn't necessarily limit the rp. A lack of the diaboli race would certainly do that, though.
Thus, my vote goes for keeping the race.
Sen
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Congrats on your 100th post Vayl :D
Also, deleting a race is a big no no. It's like what Hitler did, even if the comparison is… undesirable. Well, what Hitler did was worse: I mean, they even had the models for the race!
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Congrats on your 100th post Vayl :D
Also, deleting a race is a big no no. It's like what Hitler did, even if the comparison is… undesirable. Well, what Hitler did was worse: I mean, they even had the models for the race!
Making them sound like Neo Nazi's now Mishka :o but i know what you mean :D
But im voting to keep the race even with or with out models, you cant just wipe them from out memories,
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I mean, if we're going to delete races, we should delete Lemur too. And HammerWielder.
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Im a Hammerwielder :@#\
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Eh. And how should that be done, setting and ingame-wise, in a plausible way that doesn't break anything? Leave it be.
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Yes, why the hell would the coolest race ingame be deleted? This has to be a late April Fool's joke. I guarantee that such an incompetent decision, if it does come to pass, won't also result in the removal of everything Diaboli ingame. The Familiar rings for crying out loud, were inspired by Diaboli? Do you really think you can go into every quest, every player's mind, and erase what was? That and another race were involved in the creation of the Ynnwn, and you certainly can't say that Ynnwn "weirdness" (see: Fholen) can be removed from the game, either. They had that desire to prove themselves because they're a "new" race. Well, that's a BS excuse, but the rest still stands.
*edit*
Double posting in a forum that doesn't allow double posting.
Whoever removed the poll must realize that they're doing something players DON'T WANT. So let's remove it and make it so anyone who speaks against Diaboli removal is "the only one who feels that way".
Poll results that I can remember:
Should Diaboli be kept as a playable race despite the lack of a model for an extended period of time?
Yes: 14
No: 0
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So I'm not the only one who would like to see the Diaboli continue on as a race. On the other hand, the poll seems to have been taken down.
It's not just the old players that this untimely change would be effecting, it's also the newer ones. Just the other day I received a well thought-out IC letter from a new player - a Diaboli - wanting to know more about her race-of-choice's lore both ICly and OOCly to better fashion her character.
Now, what am I supposed to tell this new player: "There is no Diaboli lore, and you can't be a Diaboli"?
I truly find this unfair to myself and others.
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I completely agree with Sen here and voted No to the deletion. The wording of Talad does suggest that they would still have Diaboli around, just not playable. So only NPCs?
Mask asks how that could be done. I'm not with Settings or anything, but I do have a few scenarios for the change.
1. Plague/disease - Some races in nature might be more susceptible to disease or have other congenital traits that makes them less likely to survive in the long run.
- A plague affecting the possible weaker immune system of the Diaboli, leaving just a few lucky survivors from true death (NPCs), isn't entirely unlikely.
- A genetic disease of the Diaboli is sparked by some event. Without a cure the race will suffer a slow and painful true death. The best minds of all the Realm come together and after much struggle finds a cure. A potion is made, but as a side-effect (or because it is the cure itself) they have to change races. A few (NPCs) decide to withstand their horrible faith in wait of a better option or because they would rather die painfully than live as another race.
2. Genocide - As the race description on the PS mainpage tells us, the Diaboli race are happy, bustling, malicious, quite unreliable and have no humility. In addition to a great understanding of the elemental spells, they also familiarize themselves with some of the creatures of the Stone Labyrinths, which sparks suspicion.
Here I see 2 not totally unlikely events:
- One of the gods reveal him-/herself. While the other races either bow down or run and hide, the Diaboli won't do either and enrages the god with their ways. Some (NPCs) decides that in order to keep the race from extinction they either succombe or hide until the god has gone back to wherever.
- The Octarchy rules that the connection with the creatures of the Stone Labyrinth is too dangerous/treacherous or the mages have become too powerful with their knowledge (or both). As a reaction, they are banished to the Labyrinth and the known traitors face true death. Many Diabolis are enraged, a race war begins and they are fought down. The very few left (NPCs) are the ones that bought their protection and had high enough connections.
3. Migration - I can think of 2 scenarios for such a great migration:
- The Diaboli mages, with their great knowlegde of elemental magic, gains resources to open a portal to their home universe. Even though they see Yliakum as a paradise, most of the Diaboli chooses to go back to rebuild their home. Some (NPCs) stay behind to ensure that the portal can be summoned/maintained if some want to cross in the future either way.
- In a Plane wide celebration of the god(s), the priests bless the cities and the feast. Given such acts of devotion the god(s) bless the entire Plane, giving it a holy status. The Diaboli, diligently avoiding holy places and objects, are forced to move to a lower Plane. The few left (NPCs), withstand the daily struggle because of their new-found faith, or other pressing conditions.
As I said in the beginning, these are just examples I thought of while I was writing this. But I hope it can perhaps aid to a way of doing this (if it has to be done) that will be ICly and make it a bit better for the community.
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Forget it Oronec...nothing you say here will change anything. It is already done in parts: http://planeshift.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/planeshift/trunk/?view=log
If you compile a client from source at the moment you can't create a diaboli anymore. So forget about it and be happy with being a Ynnwn..after all they look the same so they must be the same to play. ;)
But seriously...haven't you learned anything in the past years? Complainig won't make a difference at all...and giving RP reasons to justify your complain even less.
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Forget it Oronec...nothing you say here will change anything.
But seriously...haven't you learned anything in the past years? Complainig won't make a difference at all...and giving RP reasons to justify your complain even less.
You're right.
I wasn't here to witness similar outcomes like this in the past, but I've heard pieces here and there.
This is the Complaint Department. I made my complaint with the hopes that it'd make a difference. If it does, then I'll be both shocked and outright happy. If it doesn't, then you're right and I'm forced to leave it at that.
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the reasoning behind the decision is not reasoning at all, it's insane troll logic.
keep the race. keep the race playable.
i think it's weird to single out just one race with missing models when there are many more races with missing models. if you have a motive for deleting the race, you better just be honest with us and tell us what it is. it's obvious this is not your reason since it is not logical, and we all know how logical you are. don't play us for a bunch of saps; it's offensive and makes you look bad. we all hold you in high regard for creating this wonderful world for us to play in, and now you wish to randomly take part of that world away with unreasonable justification. it's just... hurtful. :'(
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A lot of races have lack of models, it doesn't stop rp, simply because of the lack of models.
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There can be only one reason to remove the most interesting race from playability:
To repel the advanced roleplayers from the game, to make it mainstream and unimportant.
You know which kind of players chose to play a Diaboli, and how.
When I started playing, there was a statement that PlaneShift was made to support roleplaying.
This decision betrays it. And it confirms everyone who already left.
__
1. Plague/disease - Half-breeds in nature might be more susceptible to disease or have other congenital traits that makes them less likely to survive in the long run.
Ynnwn are the half-breeds between Diaboli and one of the elven races (Dermorian or Nolthrir).
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There will be those, who leave this game because they are frustrated because of this, and it is their right.
There will be those, who struggle on for whatever reasons, and it is their right to do so.
However, I cannot understand the tendency to create this kind of frustration on both sides which can be seen here. As LigH has pointed out, decisions like this betray the whole philosophy of the project and confirm the doubts and arguments of those who left already. If this project wants to go anywhere at all, decisions have to be made - and yes, some of these decisions were, are, and will be wrong. The question is in which magnitude these bad decisions hamper the whole project and damage its core fundamental: the fun of roleplaying in a nice setting with good mechanics and an even better community.
This is/was a fun project, and fun while it lasted. Make your decisions, everyone - ask yourself why you do them, how you justify them and what's the outcome of the decision. All this drama and trouble is taking energy away that could be used to solve problems.
More I don't have to say. Enjoy your choice.
So long,
Mask
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Well, what Hitler did was worse: I mean, they even had the models for the race!
How dare you.. In all seriousness, you should leave Yliakum for a while and get to realize some things about life. Shame on you.
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1. Plague/disease - Half-breeds in nature might be more susceptible to disease or have other congenital traits that makes them less likely to survive in the long run.
Ynnwn are the half-breeds between Diaboli and one of the elven races (Dermorian or Nolthrir).
You are of course totally right. Fixed and sorry for the mix-up. But that must leave the Ynnwn to be changed to a nonhybrid? Or are we going by the assumption that they were more fitted for life in Yliakum and in such a way made the Diabolis extinct a long time ago?
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I dont understand..why would talad go through the trouble of removing a favored race, that is all important to the game, simply becuase it has no model..
Doesnt he know its more work to remove the race than it is to keep it? All he is doing, is forcing the settings team, and the devs who work quests, to rewrite, or add onto Every associated quest or Backstory around PS.
Even LigH, whom is probably one of the most valued person on the Testers team disagrees with the decision, I understand this is Talads game, but at the same time its not, Its everyones game, when he published this game, for everyone to enjoy for free, he made it our right to make this game a home. To take somthing like that away, is unresonable on every aspect..
Now I have nothing against Talad personally, But I've heard about a lot of stupid desicions that led to bad outcomes...Half the dev team leaving, half the players leaving, things like that, somthing like this is gonna spike that exact same thing..
Personally i think EVERYONE who has, wants, or was planning a Diobli character Should continue to RP as a diobli, irregardless of weather the mechanics SAY they are a ynwnn or elf or whatever. Take things under your control, you are the users, you deserve the right, to have a say in these desicions.
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Not letting the players play devils anymore, just devil spawn, eh? I guess that is appropriate. He did say they would be removed as a playable race. Not just removed. I would be interested in hearing the reason though.
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Posting private messages on the board is not a great idea. You just lost the ability to have any more private answers from me Oronec.
Diaboli is just one of the races, not the most favored or preferred, also it's a race which has major overlaps with Ynnwn, considering both have about the same skin colors, horns, tails as Ynnwn are derived from Diaboli. Surely those are not identical, but still very similar. We want to reduce the number of playable races so we can more easily expand their background. So less races with higher quality. About roleplay that's exactly one of the reasons to reduce the number of races, at this point we don't have the resources to maintain so many, and if we want to create proper histories, lore, tools, items, weapons, ... we need a smaller set. The work we are doing on the history and background of the races is what triggered the removal. The removal will fit into the overall storyline anyway, and Diaboli will stay in the history of Yliakum, until about 430AY (to be determined). The players who are currently playing a Diaboli will be migrated to Ynnwn. They can surely roleplay any traits of Diaboli, considering either their mother or father was a Diaboli. They can also pretend to have more Diaboli blood than dermorian. So I really don't see a big impact. PlaneShift is under development and open to players at the same time, so things may change.
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You don't see a big impact? Every post here just about has told you straight-up the big impact it has. You've just lost players, Talad. The differences between Diaboli and Ynnwn are very grand if you actually look at what I'm assuming you yourself posted on the website. To name a few:
Ynnwns - Red Skin, tall, tails and horns are RARE, sensitive to precious metals
Diaboli: Oily black skin, short-ish, tails and horns ALWAYS, sensitive to holy areas
If you want to remove a race, remove Ylians. Why do I say this? Because Ylians really have no lore at all in PlaneShift if you actually look. Xacha have been the only mentionable humans (and this is in part because of their attachment to Laanx), and they're both humans. Xacha can be PS's versions of humans, with pale skin and whatever other features are unique only to them. The dwarven clans are certainly interesting, the elves are too, but removing the Diaboli is a kick in the teeth to many devoted players. Not a single person here has supported your decision except for those wishing to be the devil's advocates in posting "reasons how it could have happened" rather than "this change is a smart thing to do and should have no reason to be argued against"
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Not a single person here has supported your decision except for those wishing to be the devil's advocates in posting "reasons how it could have happened" rather than "this change is a smart thing to do and should have no reason to be argued against"
As I said twice in the post, I don't want it to happen and I agreed with Sen in his post about this matter and I do with others that have followed as well. No exception. The RP suggestions was my own response to an asked question. Again, as I said, if it has to be done (which is out of our hands, really), do it in a way the characters lost deserve.
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I don't know as I have ever met a Diaboli character, I'm sure I must have over the last years, then again I do not personally know any female Klyros so they could be removed too and I wouldn't notice. There have been quite a few new models over the years, which is good, but nothing is set in stone in a game that is in development. Personally I think the ynnwn model is pretty ugly which is one reason why the one character I have using it never sees the light of day. I might like being a squat black demon as opposed to a tall red devil but such is not to be. I want my krannic leathery skin back but doubt that is going to happen anytime, nor do I think I am likely to get a texture for the leather armor that was never developed because kran didn't need it.
One thing this fiasco says to me is that the dev team ought to be more transparent, this could have been mentioned in one of the meet the devs meetings once it had been decided upon. Leaving it to get out this way is unfortunate. I do not follow the svn developments nor do a lot of people but there are those who are not part of the team who do and once it was committed to one of the branches it was essentially out of the bag.
Getting into the history then, you say that they will be removed circa 430, if I am not mistaken this is around the time of the ruins, (and the start of the octarchy?) or at any rate whatever upheaval caused the destruction of those buildings. This does not seem illogical or far-fetched as the destruction of one of the founding races could have led to the laws against racism as evident today.
What will this bring? can the ynnwn go on indefinitely before they too must die out as the one half of their bloodline gets no more infusions or was the Diaboli blood strong enough to recur within the ynnwn stock. If this is the case is there a possibility that at some future date there may be model trait modifications similar to the kran and enkidukai texture maps whereby a ynnwn model might be made to look more like its diaboli progenitor? I do understand that model size and attributes are quite a different thing from skin color but there is some precedent for different hairdos and beards that some of the humans have.
Anyway that is enough rambling for one post. It might not be entirely cohesive but then there are likely 5 new posts waiting to spur further thoughts made while I typed this out.
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Ok, I really can't describe just how angry I'm getting with decisions like these... and what happened to the dev meetings actually being useful and detailing these sorts of changes? You want our feedback, yet blatently ignore it when we give it, and hide things you know players will object to until it's too late for their opinions to influence anything. Seriously, change after change, I've seen good people and great roleplayers leave, and now you are going to start axe-ing the other races just because you don't want to bother with the models and storyline? So what, who's next, my main char Glaciusor who is a Xacha? How about the Lemurs? Do we need 2 dwarf races?.... the fun part about this game is the diversity! This is just one more strike against the PS team. You had a great thing going for you here and you systematically are ruining it.
Newsflash, you already have a bad reputation in the gaming world, and are failing to get enough new players that can actually figure out how to play this game and still want to play it after a few days. All you are doing is making more players leave. I don't see how you intend to keep this project going if the player base is only going to keep shrinking. It's already to the point that players are leaving because there's not enough RP anymore. If you want all this hard work to be burned to ashes, then just keep ignoring all the players... after all, no players means no complaints.
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The player base has certainly made it's opinion known, and the posts above, and the poll in this topic speak for itself. For myself, I cannot seem to understand the logic behind the decision to delete a race, despite the unanimous player sentiment against it. However, the player base is adaptable, and I have faith in the community that they will find new ways to work around this change.
Let the administration make the decision from here, though it would seem that the choice has already been made. Players will leave, and players will stay, as Mask said. The game has made it's choice, now it's time to make yours. Though, I would do so before the thread is locked down.
-Car
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My Main character is married to a Diabolo and has a Diabolo brother-in-law. Oops, sorry... used to have. Should I delete that character now, together with all the time spent on developing her as a person, and also her mechanical training? Thank you very much, dear Devs. Now I feel like I really matter, as a player. My RP done throughout the years obviously does, too.
Letting the Exodus happen felt like a major blow dealt to PlaneShift by its own team, or so I thought last year. I must admit now that I've been very much mistaken. There are worse things yet to come. Oh, by the way, we female Ylians have no 3D model yet. Please delete us as well? Who cares, anyway.
An open source videogame lacking some long-promised features is a thing one can easily understand and sympathize with. An open source videogame whose team seems to be intent on humiliating and destroying the very community that makes it more than just a bunch of files in the SVN repository... is not. Sorry for my very bitter tone, I'll do my best to stay and play. No promises, though. Let the lack of care and respect flow both ways. That would be only fair, I suppose.
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Well, what Hitler did was worse: I mean, they even had the models for the race!
How dare you... In all seriousness, you should leave Yliakum for a while and get to realize some things about life. Shame on you.
If you take everything you see on the Internet so seriously, in all seriousness, I think you should leave the Internet and get to realize some things about life. Shame on you. I won't discuss this here any further, that's what PMs are used for.
Posting private messages on the board is not a great idea. You just lost the ability to have any more private answers from me Oronec.
Maybe she wouldn't have posted it if someone didn't decide to delete a whole race out of the blue.
Diaboli is just one of the races, not the most favored or preferred, also it's a race which has major overlaps with Ynnwn, considering both have about the same skin colors, horns, tails as Ynnwn are derived from Diaboli. Surely those are not identical, but still very similar. We want to reduce the number of playable races so we can more easily expand their background. So less races with higher quality. About roleplay that's exactly one of the reasons to reduce the number of races, at this point we don't have the resources to maintain so many, and if we want to create proper histories, lore, tools, items, weapons, ... we need a smaller set. The work we are doing on the history and background of the races is what triggered the removal. The removal will fit into the overall storyline anyway, and Diaboli will stay in the history of Yliakum, until about 430AY (to be determined). The players who are currently playing a Diaboli will be migrated to Ynnwn. They can surely roleplay any traits of Diaboli, considering either their mother or father was a Diaboli. They can also pretend to have more Diaboli blood than dermorian. So I really don't see a big impact. PlaneShift is under development and open to players at the same time, so things may change.
Talad, that's the lamest excuse and solution I've ever heard. Characters choose Diaboli because they wanted to choose Diaboli. If they'd wanted to choose Ynnwn they would've done so in CC, am I not right?
One thing this fiasco says to me is that the dev team ought to be more transparent, this could have been mentioned in one of the meet the devs meetings once it had been decided upon.
You're always talking about the players helping develop the game too. I really doubt you asked all the devs what were their viewpoints on this, because they would have said no, assuming they are smart enough.
But hey, now that we're going to delete models… I'll give you a list of things you should delete too. You can start with Xacha, Lemur, male Nolthrir… And wait, you're going to delete Diaboli? Alright, so there can't be any Ynnwn either. Delete Ynnwn too. I dare you to.
A frowny smiley for you, Talad >:( and an upset one too :@#\
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I really don't understand why the diaboli should be the ones to be deleted. There are two dwarven races here and their differences haven't been too clear either. And as for diavoli I had the impression they were pretty much different drom te ynnnwn, Ynnwn are huge and robust while I had the impression diaboli were more balanced in body buillt and even cute. Not to mention diavoli's charisma that makes them good artists or mages and which the ynnwn are lacking completely. I ve happened to draw diavoli at times and I ve also seen fan art from other people of the community and there is very little resemblance to the ynnwn. If it could make you consider it I'd be happy to draw more diavoli according to their description so far and send it as artwork.
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You're always talking about the players helping develop the game too. I really doubt you asked all the devs what were their viewpoints on this, because they would have said no, assuming they are smart enough.
The change was agreed between the devs, we are discussing it since some time. For your other comments, please try to provide your point of view without trolling.
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I certainly didn't come back to take up this fight. I had no idea it was even on the table until some friends whispered me "Hey Eelin! You can't be here...you're extinct" (I paraphrase). The logic behind this, as I interpret it, is that the devs don't wish to devote scarce resources into developing the models or the history/lore of the Diaboli.
Talad,
Consider the possibility that perhaps you are looking for a solution where one is not needed. I would suggest that you need do nothing at all to keep the players and the devs happy. We have our history and lore. We created it from what you gave us. We have our characters, fine-tuned around the backstory we were given. Many have worked countless hours skilling up those characters in an environment that is still not very condusive to it, and still under development. Every Diaboli character that I know tries very hard to RP within the framework you gave us....good or bad, we try because you said that's who we are. So, that's who we became. And whether we play twice a year or everyday, our Diaboli characters have made an impact in this world, and we have strong RP relationships based on that, just as every other race in Yliakum.
So please, consider doing nothing. Don't build the models...don't write any more history. We can do fine on our own. That's the magnificence and brilliance of it. You gave us the tools but we, the players, make this world what it is. Taking away who we are, especially on an RP server, is a death sentence to our characters, and there are many many more than myself who shouldn't have to start over.
If you are so deaf to the voices of your players, and intent on making this change, maybe you could implement this change on the EZPCUSA server, where the impact would be far less.
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@ mishka this was decided half a year ago so it's not so recent as you might think.
and to the others then why one of the major complains about ps is that we have too many races? another thing to factor is that incomplete races leave a stigma of an half baked game to whoever is starting to play the game.
Also the races won't be entirely removed from the lore but put in a frozen status. As they probably would have emigrated somewhere else. This means they would be able to come back in future if they get developed.
The only way to avoid this is being able to make them actually be there in the game, right now they aren't and players get a nice "there isn't a model for this race" which just leaves the half baked taste.
As for the male/female that's not a good example because here we have a full race missing any decent development not just a model missing which is the case of a missing female model.
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???
well... this makes me feel a little sad.
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@ mishka this was decided half a year ago so it's not so recent as you might think.
and to the others then why one of the major complains about ps is that we have too many races? another thing to factor is that incomplete races leave a stigma of an half baked game to whoever is starting to play the game.
Also the races won't be entirely removed from the lore but put in a frozen status. As they probably would have emigrated somewhere else. This means they would be able to come back in future if they get developed.
The only way to avoid this is being able to make them actually be there in the game, right now they aren't and players get a nice "there isn't a model for this race" which just leaves the half baked taste.
As for the male/female that's not a good example because here we have a full race missing any decent development not just a model missing which is the case of a missing female model.
I will take weltall's explanation, for now because it is the most reasonable.
The change was agreed between the devs, we are discussing it since some time. For your other comments, please try to provide your point of view without trolling.
I don't care whether you're the projects director or whatever. I wouldn't even care if you were the Pope: I won't tolerate your rudeness. I don't allow you to call me a troll just because you didn't have a better argument. If we started to look for flaws I assure you I could find much more in you than in me, and I have quite a lot. Respect the players and they'll respect you, Talad. Last warning.
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Use the same Ynnwn model for the Diaboli, just make their skin color darker.
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Use the same Ynnwn model for the Diaboli, just make their skin color darker.
This ^^^^^ is the most brilliant idea I've read in this thread.
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that's good as an ynnwn trait not as a model race
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... the diaboli looks very similar to the Ynnwn race ...
(C) Talad.
Perfect. Use it instead of abusing it. One model would suit two similar-looking races just nicely. Some are Ynnwns with lighter skin, some others are Diaboli, and they're darker than their half-breed offspring.
The KISS principle always pays back. Really.
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Well well well...
I guess it's our fault for not all being art-devs ready to join the team?
Whatever, if you're looking for me you'll find me on Guildwars.
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But you guys - every time the game is upgraded there are gains and losses for those of us who have been playing for years - that's what always happens. Some of the losses are quite painful. When all the levels changed, those of us who were maxed/expert fighters or mages suddenly became weaklings. What did we do? Most of us trained again to get stronger. I toned down my rhetoric in the tavern and when meeting people, so that I wasn't rping a strong fighting Nolthrir while being quite weak. My backstory is skeletal, so I didn't need to change it, but it can be done.
I agree that it is harder to rp a race change than a sudden drop in all stats, but we're going to have to deal with this kind of stuff as we play. And it can be done. I suggest a distasteful discovery about an affair of a parent, or a realization of a mixed-blood union further up the family tree. In any case, besides the fact that the name diaboli is awesome and so is the oily black skin, anyone with imagination can run with anything that happens as the devs advance the game.
I would say the same thing if it were my race being made non-playable. Anyone who pays attention to the numbers - how many of us are playing these days - should applaud the devs for doing whatever it takes to speed up the upgrades. It's obvious they are trying to make the game better faster. That's what will bring the people here to play.
If you don't like it, and you leave, then that's ok. Probably there should be more transparency. But I promise, this sort of thing will happen to us as testers since the game is in development. I also promise that devs do listen to what people say in the forum - not to all of the things, but to many things. I know because I've read buckets of old threads, and I see how the game has changed in the past years. We are really treated like a testable player base, and the game modifications reflect this (two servers, banking, stronger emphasis on rp on the rp server just with the daily messages and others I don't remember but can dig up).
I'm not saying this to kiss up to the game admins, I have trouble often with gms and haven't liked some things I've heard around. But I think they are doing what needs to be done to make the game better and have broader appeal. By doing what Talad and weltall have said - pruning races to increase efficiency. I guess they also know how many play which race and many other statistics which allow them to choose which race will least affect the player base by being eliminated.
Don't troll or hate. Talk and reason, and even if it is not clear at the moment, I am telling you, opinions are taken on board as anyone who attends to the forum carefully knows. :love:
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I don't care whether you're the projects director or whatever. I wouldn't even care if you were the Pope: I won't tolerate your rudeness. I don't allow you to call me a troll just because you didn't have a better argument. If we started to look for flaws I assure you I could find much more in you than in me, and I have quite a lot. Respect the players and they'll respect you, Talad. Last warning.
Seems we have a problem here, let's take this offline.
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Tantrums are useless and mostly illogical. The game itself is so good due to RP that a fair number of players forget that we are comparable to testers, with the notable exception that few people use extensively the bug tracker. But the game is deadly boring at the moment without RP. From a developer point of view really interesting, but boring. Plus, settings are actually a mystery for the common player.
Nevertheless the dev's reason it's the ultimate reason. We could argue on the methods, but that's all.
...Hey, this could bring the ever abused RP possession to the next level. Talad's Curse moved Diaboli race into the Netherworld, Gods know why. Only half-breeds can summon their essence, sharing their bodies, a special tool like a glowing Ring of Possession tells others if the Diaboli is... in da house.
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@ mishka this was decided half a year ago so it's not so recent as you might think.
Now I really wonder how much work has been put into this on the settings side during these six months.
This seems the one and only understandable reason to stubbornly stick to such a decision.
and to the others then why one of the major complains about ps is that we have too many races? another thing to factor is that incomplete races leave a stigma of an half baked game to whoever is starting to play the game.
Also the races won't be entirely removed from the lore but put in a frozen status. As they probably would have emigrated somewhere else. This means they would be able to come back in future if they get developed.
The only way to avoid this is being able to make them actually be there in the game, right now they aren't and players get a nice "there isn't a model for this race" which just leaves the half baked taste.
As for the male/female that's not a good example because here we have a full race missing any decent development not just a model missing which is the case of a missing female model.
If you are concerned about this taste of half baked features, then why don't you simply remove the Diaboli race from the character creation panel for now?
There have always been privileges for "older" characters, so why not simply allow them to be played as the Diaboli they have always been?
Again, this highly depends on work that has already been done in the settings department in the meanwhile.
I am not perfectly convinced that this decision is truly irreversible.
Nor that there are benefits that outweigh the rupture it creates.
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I voted against the removal but seriously people just chill.The devs will not remove the race forever it will be restored after some time.Noone forbid you to RP as a Diaboli.The point is:lets help the game getting developed.You do not need to have 10 years of C++ experience just advertise the game.The sooner the game is finished,the sooner we will see Diaboli back.Or you can insult everyone and ragequit from the game.
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Well I really don't get the point... All you're going to have is people leaving because of your policy (ant not the acts it themselves) and other people crating Ynwnn and roleplayingand descibing them as Diaboli. So basically you have no result AT ALL but making yet more players leave.
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I don't know. Why won't you explain it to us LigH, which kind of players play Diaboli?
Sorry for being late... ;)
Diaboli are a complicated race, complicated regarding their generic character, their own kind of ethics and traditions -- looking from the point of view of human ethics. They probably don't belong to the usual "lawful good" concept, therefore it takes more efforts to build a credible specific character. I don't say that they are necessarily "evil", but probably rather "chaotic" in relation to human-related laws.
Of course, any player can play Diaboli. But playing credible Diaboli, according to their settings, may require more experienced players who are able to play even against their own real-life characters, at least partially.
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Posting private messages on the board is not a great idea. You just lost the ability to have any more private answers from me Oronec.
Haha...time for a NDA for players also. After all they get in contact with PS.
And you all really keep on amusing me, thanks for that. Be glad that some stupid people who tried in the past to get a greater focus on RP in PS failed. Without any official rules enforcing people to follow the given setting nobody stops the community to just ignore the teams decisions and keep RPing Diaboli. It worked already in the long time of the "wrong race in description" bug...just put "Race: Diaboli" as the first line of your description. If you have no say in how the game should develop why giving people outside of the community a say in how you should play it? (But of course that's only a suggestion...as I'm also not part of the playing community)
Edit: Make a backup of the race info from the PS main page, post it in the forums so that new players know they can play those as well and get to an agreement within the community that RPed Diaboli are accepted...doesn't sound that difficult to me.
A final note: Thanks for this (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=39775.msg449589#msg449589) Aensor. I'm quit surprised nobody else in this community said a word about it.
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Posting private messages on the board is not a great idea. You just lost the ability to have any more private answers from me Oronec.
Haha...time for a NDA for players also. After all they get in contact with PS.
And you all really keep on amusing me, thanks for that. Be glad that some stupid people who tried in the past to get a greater focus on RP in PS failed. Without any official rules enforcing people to follow the given setting nobody stops the community to just ignore the teams decisions and keep RPing Diaboli. It worked already in the long time of the "wrong race in description" bug...just put "Race: Diaboli" as the first line of your description. If you have no say in how the game should develop why giving people outside of the community a say in how you should play it? (But of course that's only a suggestion...as I'm also not part of the playing community)
Edit: Make a backup of the race info from the PS main page, post it in the forums so that new players know they can play those as well and get to an agreement within the community that RPed Diaboli are accepted...doesn't sound that difficult to me.
A final note: Thanks for this (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=39775.msg449589#msg449589) Aensor. I'm quit surprised nobody else in this community said a word about it.
I was going to say the same thing with Aensor but getting trolled to death by Mishka because I do not agree with her was not in my plans.So glad that I get help in resisting this person who has no moral values.
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A final note: Thanks for this (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=39775.msg449589#msg449589) Aensor. I'm quit surprised nobody else in this community said a word about it.
Usually I ignore who clearly is speaking momentarily out of his mind, and I think you should do the same.
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We want to reduce the number of playable races ...
This statement makes me very concerned.
Please name any other developer - except yourself - who agreed to this decision.
I can't imagine any.
Does your "PR department" still exist?
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I really don't know what to say, but Talad your not doing this the right way. I don't really care if you delete a race, but like this. It's unacceptable! There's a far better way of deleting a race. Having a poll in the dev team is stupid, what say does the community get here? I mean we are the people who play the race.
Don't take privileges off people because you don't have the guts to tell the community that this is what you are going to do.
@Mishka - Well it's not as bad as Hitler because these aren't real people. However it's still not right to do such a thing like this.
Therefore I vote that Diaboli stays.
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I would like to have a statement concerning the setting and race development: it's of no use to me to play a race now that might be pulled from settings altogether. That doesn't only extend on races, I someone messes with my character concept without telling/discussion first and the simply argumentation that "things are subject to change", I would be angry to.
We're all here to create something: a game, a character for nice rp in said game and so on. Players are not riffraff - they make the story that makes the world interesting. And that's creative potential that should not be wasted but put towards creating a fun game for all.
You can't complain about not having enough devs and then make something like this, it's counterproductive and will only make furture development slower than necessary.
We all want to built the same boat.
A final note: Thanks for this (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=39775.msg449589#msg449589) Aensor. I'm quit surprised nobody else in this community said a word about it.
Usually I ignore who clearly is speaking momentarily out of his mind, and I think you should do the same.
No.
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Well, after the very nice posts in this thread, I'm out of here. I will leave it open, so you can continue to show the best of yourselves.
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The vapid outrage of you bold, brave knights at the supposed moral failings of others would carry more weight if you learn first how to spell.
I agree, but even Google Translator has its limitations.
And please, all of you... there are many ways to express your concerns. Bad language is not one of these.
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Well, given that their frustrations and opinions seems to be seldomly if at all taken into account by the devs, the players' reactions are understandable.
Given that the devs' frustrations are seldomly if at all taken into account by the players, well...
If this game wants to go anywhere, problems need to be adressed, frustrations, observations and opinions taken into account. If not, I think this project will just struggle on.
No.
I apologise. I forgot this is PlaneShift forum, not 4chan.
You got me lost, but invoking Godwin's law on the first page and never call that out is okay for you?
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Well, he called me a dickhead. Then seems he edited his post (I just reduced the ban to 30 days now). I can tell you that's not a great idea to call the leader of a game you want to play a dickhead. :)
I feel this thread has gone pretty wrong, just my opinion. About addressing player concerns this was the reason for me to answer the posts and explain the reasons, but seems is not really appreciated.
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I know this is just restating what has been said, but with the reasons given, it wouldnt be any different them removing hammerweilders or such. I am sure those that are playing Diaboli would not mind to wait .... that is part of playing Beta, you wait for the full version to complete, even if that will take quite a bit of time. I play a Ynnwn, but without the Diaboli .... I really wouldnt exist.
Everyone does have to take into consideration the time and effort that goes into everything, and Im sure it is .... from most, anyways. Being the writers and the moderators, your decision goes .... if we like it or not.
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I know this is just restating what has been said, but with the reasons given, it wouldnt be any different them removing hammerweilders or such. I am sure those that are playing Diaboli would not mind to wait .... that is part of playing Beta, you wait for the full version to complete, even if that will take quite a bit of time. I play a Ynnwn, but without the Diaboli .... I really wouldnt exist.
Also the first impression was otherwise, I think that's what it's all about: bumping the development of the diaboli down the priority list. Maybe that did not get across in the first statements here. And it certainly got lost in the heated atmosphere.
I play a Dermorian - and I can wait for whatever the devs have planned in terms of a city. Every hint or piece of information that is released and enables me to play my character more convincinly is appreciated. And if it doesn't fit with the character's backstory, well, if it's nothing vital, I can rework.
Well, he called me a dickhead. Then seems he edited his post (I just reduced the ban to 30 days now). I can tell you that's not a great idea to call the leader of a game you want to play a dickhead. :)
Well, be happy he didn't threw an iron d20 into your direction in the heat of the frustration. :D
Also, I am quit sure that some of the players connect more than "playing" with the word: creating, filling with life, shaping. Since this game is under development, players and devs might get into nasty fights - in the end, they have the same goal. Every fight takes energy away from creating, and might drain away good people that walk away in frustration. Balancing the kind of world the players already created and the official development of settings would be nice and most likely beneficial for all. Mainly, this means better communications.
I feel this thread has gone pretty wrong, just my opinion. About addressing player concerns this was the reason for me to answer the posts and explain the reasons, but seems is not really appreciated.
It came surprising for the players. Your argumentation made sense from a development point of view, but still there were flaws as has been pointed out. Most of us, the players, would really appreciate a higher amount of information and discussion. Maybe someone finds flaws that where overlooked before, that's the great thing with communities. But communities need a certain amount of grooming, if one can say so. And then one might get something back from a nice community.
Enjoy your choice. :)
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My message above is NOT to be interpreted as a mild justification of those disgraceful pages of our recent history! >:(
Off topic bombs should be avoided, that's all. That's what forum filters are for.
But I can assure you, if someone calls me a dick head, I don't praise him. There's no justification, unless you can certify that in your country it's a compliment.
It's really hard for me do not express my personal opinions, for the sake of proper discussions. Nevertheless, for my own health, it's better if I shut my mouth.
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This thread has gone out of hand and I deeply request it's locked and maybe even pruned. Talad, I think it would be a very smart move to post an apology thread to all the players roleplaying Diaboli, maybe offering a reward for putting up for all those years and asking them to understand what just happened. Everyone has said things they didn't mean, and this has escalated even to the point there is people with a temporal ban.
@Aensor & AiwendilH: My point was indeed valid and if it disturbs anyone nobody is forced to dwell on it. We all can learn how to get over it.
@Catlemur: I'm so tired of you spewing shit about me all around the forums and IRC I won't even bother replying to you. Instead, I'd rather listen to Pavarotti singing Nessun Dorma. If you continue that way, you'll slip and then it'll end up badly for you. Also, use space after periods.
Summarizing for lazy readers: Stop stirring shit.
@Boeven: Dickhead! :P
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I am sure those that are playing Diaboli would not mind to wait ....
I'll affirm this thought. Really, where is the urgency to delete a race? Put us on the back burner for a while but let us live. :sweatdrop:
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I'm not sure if this concept was discussed in another forum (I did search) but even still, perhaps it is useful to bring it up here as a possible idea going forward.
I understand the decision to have a separate license for the game content that is orthogonal to the open-source license placed on the source code, and I deeply respect that decision. However, I have on occasion wondered if there might be sufficient interest to create a viable economy around player-created game assets. Looking at the fan art section of this forum shows that there are very talented players, and I'm not sure that all of them are also on the settings team. There are other programs that allow for the players to create their own in-game content (I believe Second Life does) so it's not a completely off-the-wall concept.
The way I would see this working would be that we could have a secondary repository for player content to be stored, and then each player would have to explicitly enable their client to download from that repository, with the knowledge that this content may not be up to the level expected of the official content, or may violate the continuity of the story. The content in here could be put under a different license, say open-source or an equivalent creative-commons license, or even public domain. Additionally, the development team could review submissions to this area and ask authors if they wouldn't mind relicensing their content under the PS content license and thus making their creation an official part of the game.
It's just an idea, and potentially a way to open up a new market for in-game content that, for whatever reason, current creative talent in our community isn't joining the development team to assist with. Of course there can be many things wrong with this, but, if the player community were to come up with their own models for the Diaboli race, then that could potentially alleviate the development team from having to make this difficult decision, or at least reduce its impact.
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I'm not sure if this concept was discussed in another forum (I did search) but even still, perhaps it is useful to bring it up here as a possible idea going forward.
I understand the decision to have a separate license for the game content that is orthogonal to the open-source license placed on the source code, and I deeply respect that decision. However, I have on occasion wondered if there might be sufficient interest to create a viable economy around player-created game assets. Looking at the fan art section of this forum shows that there are very talented players, and I'm not sure that all of them are also on the settings team. There are other programs that allow for the players to create their own in-game content (I believe Second Life does) so it's not a completely off-the-wall concept.
The way I would see this working would be that we could have a secondary repository for player content to be stored, and then each player would have to explicitly enable their client to download from that repository, with the knowledge that this content may not be up to the level expected of the official content, or may violate the continuity of the story. The content in here could be put under a different license, say open-source or an equivalent creative-commons license, or even public domain. Additionally, the development team could review submissions to this area and ask authors if they wouldn't mind relicensing their content under the PS content license and thus making their creation an official part of the game.
It's just an idea, and potentially a way to open up a new market for in-game content that, for whatever reason, current creative talent in our community isn't joining the development team to assist with. Of course there can be many things wrong with this, but, if the player community were to come up with their own models for the Diaboli race, then that could potentially alleviate the development team from having to make this difficult decision, or at least reduce its impact.
\\o//
Yes!
I had a similar idea some time ago, and turns out I am not the only one. Very good. This might cure one or two problem, create new ones, too, but hey.
Any official wants to give a statement to this idea?
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About addressing player concerns this was the reason for me to answer the posts and explain the reasons, but seems is not really appreciated.
I thank you for trying to explain ... but in fact, I can't call anything you said a "reason". In my personal opinion (and the one of many others, certainly), I see no relation between the planned action and the statement you call a "reason". I only see a lot of consequences coming over us in the future if you insist in finishing your plans.
This is not the historical Japan. You are not urged to suicide if you confess you did a mistake, being a superior. Instead, you should rather be afraid of your project dying if you can't decide to listen to our concerns. We may not always agree with you; but it may happen that we prefer protecting PlaneShift over protecting you.
Hereby I confess a mistake of myself: I have issues reading lengthy english chapters. I was not able to understand the statements above completely. I am not certain what will happen to the existing Diaboli characters (if they will be deleted, converted, receive any kind of redress for their loss...). A list of brief facts may help to recognise the consequences better.
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My objection in deleting the diaboli race is that it has been a successful race that the players embraced and have been playing for long even though there has been no model, which was a handicap in RPs (people treat differently an evil looking ynnwn than they would a charming diavoli). The same hasn't happened with other races as lemurs or male nolthirs, not in that scale at least. So this isn't about specific individuals loosing their race, diavoli have really been a well functioning part of the game so far, and often a key element in roleplays thanks to their chaotic nature.
Despite that, posting here to complain or insult anyone is making things worse and takes away any meaning form this thread. You people are not helping. If you think diaboli should not be removed just post why you believe so and support your opinion in a way that will show how serious you are about this. Posts like "don't take away my race" or "Talad you are destroying the game" are bound not to be taken seriously. Because in any game the devs are the ones who do the work and since they are creating stuff they are more serious about the game content than those who play.
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I feel this thread has gone pretty wrong, just my opinion. About addressing player concerns this was the reason for me to answer the posts and explain the reasons, but seems is not really appreciated.
If you think this thread went wrong, then imagine if you had announced the removal of the Enkidukai?
I would say that the response in this thread to your statement, shows that it is the correct course of action. Part of the problem with this project is that it is unfinished but it is treated like a finished product by many people. In order to finish, the project must be simplified before it can be properly expanded.
I have always questioned the wisdom of making publicly available a software project that is in a drastically unfinished state. People take this sort of thing too seriously. Game changes amount to personal affronts and insults. Any nerf is met with an deluge of criticism and predictions of project death.
Remember the response to changing the dueling system? The fixing of Silverweaves? The removal of the platinum mine below the Laanx temple? There can be no true community in PlaneShift until the game is properly defined and the limits and balances understood.
If I was in charge of the project, I would limit playable races to one each of the basics: Human, Dwarf, Kran, Enki, Ynnwn, and Klyros. Six playable races to work on during development is still a monumental task to plan, model, skin, test, tweak and balance.
Then when the project reaches stable after 1.0 and any deep considerations have been revealed, then add playable races that are subsets of the original race. Such as the various Enki tribes, Diaboli and dwarven flavors, et cetera.
Talad you appear to be in a position where it might be best to remember that it doesn't matter what they say about you, because the real problems happen when they don't talk about you at all anymore.
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Trying to find any sense in what the Devs say.
Tefusanglings and marfusangs have no models of their own. They are the same tefusangs all over again, rescaled and repainted somewhat. No backstory.
Four species of arangmas share the same model, they are just colored differently. No backstory either.
Things like that make the game look half-baked, and the team lacks resources to fix the situation. No one plays a tefusangling or an arangma.
Are they going to be flushed down the toilet? No. Not that we know of.
Something very wrong is going on. I'm not especially happy to side with Aiwendil on that, but it seems there's no other choice left to the players. "They" don't respect neither the world itself, nor our choices, so why should "we" respect the choices "they" make? Respect the true Settings instead, play your Diaboli according to what was created by the previous Devs team, the one that made the world and is long gone by now. In some cases, gone rather unwillingly.
What could "they" possibly do to stop that from happening? Take the Diaboli model away? Update the main site? Start banning role players for "bad" descriptions? Oh yeah. *crying out loud*
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I apologize for taking your PM and posting it in an angered state of mind. I stepped over the line in doing so, and I realize that now. Being the Leader and maker of a game is not easy: you have a great game going, Talad. If I could take back the thread that I made, I would. If I could take back prematurely finding out about the change to come, I would. Because after reading many posts, both the devs' and players', I've come to realize this: As a role player on a beta game, I should be able to find IC ways to adapt to change, and not criticize them without giving it some real thought.
It won't happen again. At least, not from me.
Sincerely,
Oronec
I am not begging for forgiveness, I am not kissing up to the Team. But with realization and my own self reasoning provided by a lot of the posts above stating ways to cope with the abrupt change I can do no more than shrug and say "It's a beta game". A couple of you thought up reasonable ways to ICly cope with the change, and even though I don't plan on going through with any of them, I think it would be an interesting twist to the Diaboli that do stay around.
We're role players after all. If change occurs, we adapt and find ways to make it more interesting and enjoyable for ourselves and the rest of the community.
I could have been more civil when I went about making this thread. But then again, who is now days? We can still voice our complaints, our opinions, our anything on this matter and any other... Just not in the manner I did it, because well, I went about it the immature way. :sweatdrop:
-Oronec,
Avid Diaboli RPer
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Ok, enough. I took some time to check the IPs of the people in this thread, and found an alt, which was already banned for trolling. deleted all his posts now. rest in peace.
For all the others who are getting confused about this thread, please note that the diaboli race has NOT been deleted. More information will follow as we see fit. Remember the game is under development and subject to change without notice.