PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => PvP,PK and Thieving => Topic started by: paxx on June 01, 2003, 10:35:02 am
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PK, or player killer is when a player for no real reason is able to attack another player (this will not be in the game) except in very limited areas of the game
PvP, or player Vs player, is when a player can attack others for some reason and he is also a target to the other player. Many games today have this as the primary motivation for their game and as such not only encourage it, but make it mandatory. We will not make it mandatory, but optional to partake.
Now the current line of thought among the people who want PK is that it can be done and enforced easily. In reality the only way this would be done is with very extreme penalties, and thus make it a moot point.
Some have said that extreme PKers can be banned, well I?ll ask you for a full proof way to ban people on a free game specially when IPs are can be random. We don?t have the luxtury of credit card name or address banning. There are ways yes, but it would require our intervention in an extreme way, and no one from that household will be able to play until they change ISPs or hardware configurations depending how it is done.
And as the story line of the game as it stands now, such anti-progressive activity would be viewed as treason, we would then have to have secret police investigating such activity and rendering the character unplayable.
As such it would be poor game play.
And I think it is much better to simply say this activity will not be in the game at all.
Now that said.
I think it would be a great game if we where all part of one side or another all fighting for control of some type and each looking after number one (ourselves) and that the game focused on our actions and we where both friend to some and foe to others.
But the simple answer to my much longer proposal then that with explanations to many areas of that was this ?Sounds like a great game, but it will not be Planeshift?.
So while I am one of the most sympathetic to the PK and PvP areas, it is not planned to be in this game as wanted.
Don?t think that I got this subforum started to have people accusing me of not having the foresight or grey matter to understand the possibilities and many positive things both these things can bring to the game. If anything it is the opposite. But sadly it is not me you must win over, or even other people who frequent these boards.
And to date I have not seen a system of PK that I really like that would fit our game. Taken to an extreme I can tell you that if this system had PKing at this point, it will suck badly. As people would not really know who is who and there is no real way to con people at this point. So there really is no low level person we can protect well from high levels. And so even trying to balance would be really hard because progression is much more 3 dimensional in that just because someone is supposedly more powerful does not mean he can?t easily be killed by some not so common method that he just does not have the defenses for.
As such it is very simple for someone to have your number and become your bane. This may seem cool, but it is not, it simply means anyone may have the potential to take you out, and at the same time be immune to anything you can do to them. Guilds would be able to rule areas for a given amount of time just by laying claim, or as suggested charge a toll for using that area.
This is by far against everything this game is about. But nothing is stopping any of you, or me for that matter from making a game where this activity is encouraged. Most of this game will be open source and as such, you can apply the rules and models you want and start a game of your own. But it will not be Planeshift.
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how about tribe/clan/kingdom wars where if u enlist in a certain kingdom\'s force, u are given their protection but also suseptible [yikes; spelling] to being attacked by other players in opposing forces IF there is a war waged between the two kingdoms
-and the wars can be declared by the ruler of each kingdom [who is a NPC] -allowing the devs to cook up conflict between kingdoms every now and then....
-just alittle nothing i just thought of
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Ummm, kingdoms???
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would i be right in thinking there is only 1 kingdom in this world (Yliakum)??? IE all citys and places within are singally ruled
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i used kingdoms for lack of a better word....
just a group of many players versus another group
-both led by npc\'s
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I will compromise and give you this new system that I was thinking of in response to all of the ideas and responses you gave me on that long as hell 20 point system I put in that other post.
First of all.
You know and so do I that you can ban IPs from playing your game. A lot of other games (MUDs, and MMORPGs) do it. It prevents you from logging in from your IP address which the server must read in to allow you to play. Yes there is the effect that someone who is IP banned can go out and get a new IP address and there are some that will do it just to play a game such as this but you are looking at a small 2 percent and chances are they will just get IP banned again (something that takes you Devs only about 20 seconds to do)
1.) If you don\'t want to allow people to decide if they can be peaceful or fighter on creation thats fine whatever its your game but in response to what you said most people would probably go the fighter route. It would be cool to see what people choose.
2.) Forget the outlaw tag you don\'t like the idea. and the NPC police.
2.5) Safe Places: ALL towns, temples, and a few other places are completely safe from PvP fighting meaning there can be no guild wars and no PKing done inside of these areas. However, there can be duels inside of these areas.
3.) Anyone IN A GUILD has the option of attacking another person at any time.
However there will be two (or more) different guild classes and they can only attack people in the same guild class. There are the fighter and the crafter guild types. This way fighters cannot attack bakers/crafters and they can also not attack neutrals (people with no affiliation as of yet). THus neutrals cannot attack anyone in a guild (unless in duel which I will get to later).
Crafters can only attack other crafters.
4.) There is no penalty for attacking and killing someone of the same guild type. Leave that to the people in the guilds to decide. This will most likely begin guild wars. Guild wars only have to be declared by one party.
5.) Dueling: Anyone can Duel with anyone at any time however it must be accepted on by both parties. Death will constitute a real death.
6.) Arenas: Arenas will exist in the towns (the only place that people will be able to fight inside of a town). Watchers will have the option of betting on the matches. Also there can be two different types of arenas. The everyone for themself arena in which as many people as want can enter into the arena at the same time. THe last person standing is the winner. Deaths are fake in that no experience or items are lost unless wagered before hand. Also there can be the one on one arena. One player vs. Aother. Same rules with regards to the death.
Finally, there can be the monsters arena and you can have some special monsters in there like supped up versions of monsters so that people can show off their strength. Deaths will result in a minimal skill loss or soemthing like that. If they win they will get something too.
This with some of the other good points in my other PKsystem I think would work great.
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As far as kingdoms?we won?t really have them, the movement is more like a representative system with many factions represented. Each level will have a supreme ruler but he is not very powerful all in all, it might be like a parliamentary system in a way but it is not that either exactly. Ah in the end we will see how it works out, much of it will change as we try and implement it I am sure.
As for guilds and their influence, I am sure they will have it to differing degrees.
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i dont think that \"last man standing\" arena is a good idea
-unless its team survival with two diff guilds going at it
a free-for-all wouldnt work cuz the player hiding in the corner wins
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id like to see pking..... and an easy way to ban someone is by getting there mac adress which if there connected you your server its pretty easy anyway if you ban someones mac address you ban there nic card or modem... the mac adress is hard wired in the card itself
so it cant be faked or changed without changing the nic/modem
mac adress is also known as phsyical adress and every nic/modem has a diffrent one
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In reality the MAC address banning is the most likely way we will ban people, at issue in this case is mac spoofing (can be done not easy in my view at least the one method I am familiar with, but doable) and the banning of a computer from our game, no matter the number of users on it.
If this person who offended is really malicious, he will repeat whatever the offence is on more then one machine just to prove a point and get people pissed off at us.
In a truly perfect game system we would not allow a single bannable offence to take place.
The other issues that I am not familiar enough with is MAC address acquisition for the banning, will the player need to be logged in to ban him as such. Will we logg all MAC addresses that each character uses and bann them all??? Like I said there are many issues I am simply not qualified to answer in this area, you can thank your lucky stars I am not programming this :-). I am familiar enough to say it will work and it is not too hard to do, the issue here comes down to the best way to do it. Are we going to ban all the places this guy had played his character? His friends house where he introduced a ?good ? player to the game and showed what his character could do. Or just his most common location.
Back to the perfect system.
Now if we could have a perfect system where characters could never do things that are considered bannable and we even had probation of some sort (my mind is spinning with possibilities) but pking allows a bannable offence?we would have to say stop no more. Some players might be following a very good ethic others not, how do we judge. But in the end it is quite simple?No Pking.
This was drilled into my head today as character creation was being discussed?well not drilled but mentioned. So while I?m the only one talking about it I am not the one to explain it to, I had a decent Pk system in mind in a weird and devious way?but no.
Mainly I have to agree, it does not fit the story or ?vision? of the game. I know more then I did then and have to say this is the best rout.
And you either get to trust my judgment, or seek another game, or wait in the dark for your opportunity to strike and say, well now is the time that Pk should be thought about and implemented.
For all the hard core pk types, you can guess my suggestion :-) but in truth this is not the game to pk in, there are many and there will be even more that it is, but in our current model it won?t be done.
If we are ever having 10 servers with different players sets (not merged in some way like zone servers) it will probably be considered and if there are devs willing to support it, it may happen.
At the same time it will be possible once we are functioning to insert art and rules and have a truly pk from the ground up game.
That is tempting, but in a weird way I have to think that it will be easier to do after we are fully functioning, then it is right now. A lot of the hard things will be done, instead of years and years?a few months and you will probably have a pretty decent game.
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we could just delete the character!!
anyways yea i agree i want to see this game up as quick as possible
pking or no pking im shure its gonna be a good game either way
and y do you all assum,e just cause we have a certain degree of pking wed make the game about pking??
anyways good luck on the game
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It is not about it being about PK or not. It is about what you want people to do in the game, what experience they have.
PKing is a polarizing issue, many people hate it, and based that the game is more about other things, it will not have pking.
As far as who what why and where. If you don?t allow something by not having it, then it is not possible to abuse.
That is the simple answer?if cocaine did not exist, then it could not be abused.
Now, in the certain degree of pking, what is a certain degree?if a game allows pking then it has pking and becomes about pking cause the people who do not want pking do not play.
We have seen in shadowbane some level of restraint in this and enforcement by the guilds. But that is a PvP game in that it?s focus is PvP.
I can?t say what the perfect answer is, but it is impossible to make everyone happy, and we will attempt to make what the game was initially about. Might pking gent added later?who knows but I doubt it at this point. Shadowbane has the best system I have seen and it is not great.
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Well, i am getting a bit confused....
No PK, ok then.
But there will still be duals, arenas fighting and guild wars, right ?
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yes
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today i cast a spell on this girl in tibia dint kill her just scared her alittle she ran away screeming and someone heard her and buroght me down to 3hp and made me pay the girl for her troubles and appoligise thats how the pking system should go .... not restricted by rules or regulations but restricted by players
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Well it won\'t be.
I would suggest you continue playing tibia, or any number of the many games that allow pking, this game won\'t have it. It is not one person (me) saying it, it is to my knowledge all the Dev\'s, and at least all the Dev\'s in decision making positions. For Pk to be included in this game at any time prior to production, there eather would have to be a total change of the dev team, or an incredable system in use, that is so great it gets the Dev\'s to change their position and we might emulate it to some degree cause it knocked our socks off. and i do not see eather happening.
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Well someone suggested there would be limited PK, so one PK a day or something. If you broke that rule one time you were gettin a BIG, a VERY BIG penalty. Like banning or so.
Well a defensive PK could be done. But it would be a heck of a PK then... if every guy killed another guy a day... no it wouldnt work................
But PvP on the street should be done, and i hope there are good rules for Clanwar PvP. Why cant one be a Assasin for Hire, to be hired for a guild who want someone in the other guild dead? Then you dont need to be in some guild but could be a Assasin For Hire. Thatll be fun, it would be a bigger challenge for the other guild to get, and the guild wars would be mucho biggo.
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paxx, you are a genius. You approach this issue with a clear and analytical mind.
I believe the question of player killing (and if people will abuse it) is philosophical in nature. People don\'t seem to see it from a global perspective as they should. They are too busy imagining their fantasy game where they can indulge their sick desires to kill everyone around them. That is, to be A GOD. Many single player games allow you this luxury, and I imagine some have grown used to it and would like to experience the same thing in a MMO environment.
The trouble is, nobody wants to be the little guy. Everyone wants to be the one with the power, not the one without.
So, it becomes a quest to quickly increase the power/experience/stats of your character in order to exact your revenge.
This negates the purpose of a Role Playing Game. And it becomes a deathmatch.
In a typical role playing game, you, your character is the hero. And the hero is never easily killed.
In a MMORPG, EVERY player character is the hero (or villain, or whatever)--even the newbie. And none of these heros or villains should be easily killed. They are the main characters of the story, and their battles are meant to last a long time.
They are clever and quick, can detect assassination attempts, and can never be killed by a single blow. They can catch the arm of a thief before she makes away with their loot. If a battle cannot be won, they can always run.
So, thieves and assassins are best focusing their efforts on NPC\'s as player characters are a fools target.
Everyone is the main character of this story, so everyone must survive till the end. PKing is removed so this is possible. (NOTE: there is still death from mobs, but as in every game, we ignore this and pretend the hero character never dies. (IE. we pretend he never dies by bringing him back to life))--i may need to think more on this point...
I also believe the greater the amount of player interaction, the more interesting a MMO game becomes. So, keeping player interaction high is important for a good MMO game. Pking is interacting, yet it still needs to be perfected before it can be used properly.
Paxx, I hold you among the highest of the devs. 8)
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I agree with you completely, abemore... And just to give an example of how wrong Pking can get.. I would suggest refering to any of the many DAoC forums around their sites, and look at the EXTREMELY high amount of complaints about lvl 50 characters hiding in shadows and killing anyone that comes near.. even low lvl newbies who have just bought the game... I can\'t remember how many times I\'ve seen/heard and talked to some of them quitting the game because of some powermad fool trying to feel omnipotent by killing a n00b in one hit.. If pking runs amok like in DAoC it can ruin a game for everyone...
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Well, thank you for the nice comments. But in reality there are a great number of the devs that I feel are much more deserving of those words then I.
But I must say that my IQ does not reach the MENSA requirements. Although I take the compliment gladly :-)
The issue with banning and such?in a perfectly made game it would be imposable for a player to do something worthy of banning.
But I must say that we are not enlightened enough to figure out how to make a game that gives everyone all the freedom they want and yet allows everyone to have a generally good time. It has something to do with that saying ?you can?t please everyone all of the time? however we are striving for a good game.
If after Planeshift is mostly done and stable, there is a group that wants to make a PvP PK game based on the mmorpg model, I?d be happy to assist in the same fashion I have with this game. But people really have to think about the bigger picture when making these things.
If we had followed my original concept that 10-15 newbies would almost always be able to take down the best warrior type in the game, meaning there is not that much progression in skills. This concept would be very usefull in a full on PK/PvP environment, players rely on tactics and practice to overcome their enemies. In this game the character not the player takes a central role in combat.
If this was not the way it was then the combat system and even the communication models we have planned would be different.
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I remember speaking to you once before, paxx, in the IRC dev channel, but I had no idea you were so level-headed. It came as a bit of a surprise. Of course, the rest of the dev team seems to be extremely intelligent as well... two of my favorites are Venge and acraig.
So, you 3 have now become (whether you like it or not) my favorite devs :)
...which means nothing 8)
I remember taking a sample test on the MENSA website and reading that I had a good chance of passing the actual test. I believe your IQ is plenty high, you just need to be well studied in IQ test question format. Emode.com also has an IQ test, but the questions are much simpler than the MENSA version.
Well, this has been a model thread. A lot of excellent points have been made within it, and it has stayed almost entirely on topic (except for this post).
I personally believe that the things said here could sway the opinions of [at least one or two of] the most diehard pro-pk lobbyists.
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I don\'t understand what the big fuss is about.
You are absolutely right, if a level 10 attacks level 1 it is definately not fair, but it\'s no reason to baan pking.
The simplest solution to this is to only allow pking for same levels, or even better there should be a way to calculate persons full strength and abilities(magic, agility, strength, intel) and create some sort of measure system, it\'s up to you devs and allow only those people to kill each other. This seems totaly fair to me, at least the pker won\'t have an easy time killing his target and it will be a fair fight, and next time he will know better.
Ofcourse one could have better armor or weapons, or there could be a group of the same levels attacking a single person, but that\'s the whole idea of freaking fun. Otherwise it\'s like Eq, you just walk around, doing whatever you want, offending whoever you want, and really not living in the real virtual world of mmorpg.
as for banning people. daamn, just cancel their nicknames(accounts) without warning them first, because they could easily transfer their funds and items to their friends. So under this fear, high levels will not pk anyone for fun.
does this make any sense?
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make lvl 1-5 or 1-10 not atackable!
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hehe - one problem with that idea -> there are no levels in Planeshift
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well i proposed something different didn\'t you read? I only used the level thing as an example
If the devs create some sort of round leveling system just for the sake of pking.
it\'s comparing stregngth, if the strength is too far apart than automatically not allowed. then go onto agility, that could be rouned off depending how much the strength is apart, then go onto the intel, same thing there, finally check if the players possess any magic abilities, if one doesn\'t have, not allowed, else compare somewhere in between, if their abilities power is about the same, allow the freaking pk.
then, it\'s not clear who\'ll pk who, right?
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i was just saying ....... wont they have lvls at some point?
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but that\'s the thing, what if somebody just turns lvl 11 and gets his ass whooped by level 20?
did you think about that?
or lets say that they are both level 20, but one has a crazy spell that\'s way stronger than anything than the other one has. That wouldn\'t be fair.
So what do you think of my way though?
I mean, everyone could fight, starting from the beginning, but only fight alike.
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bah well ....... it all cant be fair bah bah bah
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so... stupid.
only a very small percentage of everyone playing the game would have skill equal to yours. There is already PvP dueling. What you want is the ability to sneak up on someone and kill them. Thats frickin idiotic.
Can you imagine for a moment, being deep in a dungeon, minding your own business, killing zombies for exp. The zombies rush you, but you fight them off just in time to save your life... then some asshole comes up behind u and pk\'s your ass. You lose all your items. THE END.
just as a general rule, if you\'re a kid, your opinion probably isn\'t good.
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well, I\'m just trying to find some new solutions. And maybe I didn\'t claryfy what I proposed, but basically my idea was some rounded off combination of everything about a player and put into a number between 1-20.
So this creates a big chance of meeting somebody like that.
Your comment about the cave and zombies sounds horrifying, but it doesn\'t convince me pking is bad. You just brought one of the worst scenarios. You seem to believe that everyone is an ass**** and will try to kill you. I, having some moral values, wouldn\'t kill a person\'s efforts in the game with such a sucker punch. Although it could happen, out of coincidence, you never know.
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you are clear. you dont want to be able to \"scuffle\" with a player much weaker than you or much stronger than you. I still dont agree there will be a big chance of meeting a same skilled player. but thats beside the point.
all your system does is protect weaker players from stronger players. It is still, like every PK system, not perfect (my scenario shows that). Thats good that you have morals, but any system of open PK does not require you to, so others may not.
Your system is relatively simple. The solution for PK will probably not be in a simple system. It will most likely be very complicated. If it was simple, dont you think someone would have thought of it already?
Bottom line: Open PK causes grief. And no system so far has figured out a way to do it without grief. Good luck with that.
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yeah my solution maybe simple, but hey, sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.
like that joke, \"in 70 the Americans spent 2million dollars developing ball pen that will work in space, while Russians just used pencils.\"
:)
anyway, I know it\'s not the case here, I actually starting to doubt my own system myself. But a simple solution is possible, and it\'s probably has been mentioned, it\'s just devs don\'t want to risk it. but I dont understand, what do they got to loose. unless all of them are united against the idea of pk, pvp, blab lbabla.
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lol just let it go abemore but really any system of pk isnt fair unless you both somehow have to agree to battle and that isnt happening
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LMAO. I can\'t believe people are still arguing over PKing. And still no one has gotten the message. NO PKing. And, hypothetically speaking, if PKing were allowed. a large population of players would just go around killing everyone. And even those who just killed one person, think about what it would be like to finally get that weapon you have been saving up for and some guy comes along and kills you then takes it.
And for those people who think it\'s more \"realistic\", this is a FANTASY game, which if looked up is the exact opposite of reality.
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i dont see why you would have to lose your weapon if your were pk\'d i said in one of the forums that you should just lose a small amount of money or nothing at all ........
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I was just providing an example. We could use the travelling example maybe? Spending hours trying to get somewhere and have someone just kill you and having to start over again. No matter how you look at it, it causes grief.
My solution, PKing should come with realistic punishments. Such as having the character sent to jail forever. That sort of thing.
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ok ok i think pvp should be limited in specail zones then .... now thats fair if you dont want to get pk\'d dont go in that zone there could be warning signs or something im sure a few people said this idea and it is the fairest idea ........ no one should disagree with this system but if you get pk\'d you keep your 4 most expensive or rare items. If you get pk\'d its your fault you lost the items and im sure they\'ll have a bank or something.
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Where as that won\'t affect those who choose not to PK it will detract from the roleplaying aspect of the game. PS is a roleplaying game therefore those who play the game should roleplay, mindlesly killing monsters and other people isn\'t roleplaying.
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well obviously the people that choose not to roleplay and want to kill other people can stay in the zone but the people who do roleplay DO NOT have to go into the zone to get pk\'d who said you cant roleplay????????
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this thread has gone to crap. have you read ANY of the PK literature in this forum, shang? you\'re becoming a bit repetitive... simma\' down now!
Aendar\'s solution is realistic, but like our real life system, it carries the possibility of putting innocent people away.
I have just come up with a solution of my own, and so far, I believe it be quite elegant. Let me know what you think:
My Alternative to PK (featuring Playground rules) (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=4861&boardid=21)