PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mariana Xiechai on November 02, 2011, 04:14:51 am
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Hi all! I've actually got a question that I get mixed answers on:
Is it possible to do magic without glyphs?
When I pose this question, I mean, as in, is it possible to have this ability, but also would assume it comes with shaky control, possibly volitile actions, etc. In other words, it would affect your character greatly. (It's the struggle I'm interested in RP wise.) I've been told yes, I've been told no, and I'm not certain. I could understand both sides of the argument; such an implementation would have to be done with taste and not "ALL HAIL MY MIGHTY GOD-LIKE POWERZ" crud, but I'm curious as to whether it is an RP possibility.
Thanks for comments and replies in advance!
\\o//
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The hand is quicker than the eye...
In a magical world that which has no apparent explanation must be assumed to be magic.
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The game mechanic relies on glyphs and their combination.
Your roleplay is a different topic ... your char might be the exception.
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Sorry..got to disagree there LigH...at least it didn't use to be a different topic. All questions according to magic were always answered by a "Not without a glyph" (and by that the indirect help of a god) by the settings in the past (Sorry, can't link...seems the old settings Q&As were deleted). A Magician without a glyph-sack is completely helpless. You want to shape some sculpture of fire in the tavern to impress others with your godlike magic skills...then please have one hand on you glyph-sack also. You want some strange, lit markings appear on your skin...pretty please RP swallowing the glyph-stone causing this and choking on it before. But as PS was never known for a very consistent and excessive setting there is a good chance this stance had changed during the last years...so good luck in trying to get a official answer to this.
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I think there is actually a lot you can do without overlooking any game rules. I mean, the settings say mortals can't use magic without glyphs, on the other hand there have been cases of glyphs affecting objects just by being nearby due to their magic power, so glyphs are more than small peebles.
That means mortals can't create and manipulate magic powers themselves but there is plenty of room to improvise on people affected by magic powers and enchantments. For ex, a baby exposed to a certain glyph right after its birth could have been affected for the rest of his life, same for a person exposed to magical powers or great level. And because each individual is different and unpredictable, maybe the same things wouldn't affect different persons.
According to the settings, people can cast spells either by holding their glyphs or by having them very close to themselves, and also, every glyph gains its own master through the process of purification and cannot be used from anyone else unless purified again. No one can cast without glyphs, but that doesn't exclude being affected by magic powers, seeing things, hearing voices, having a talent to the manipulation of a certain element, randomly detecting good or evil and tons of other things :P
To end with this, the game is under development and so are the settings, that gives the players room to improvise a lot. The most important thing is sticking to something that can create good RP, i.e. if you want to have an affinity with fire don't choose that to be "scorching my enemies with raging fireballs". It'll be much better if its something like: "waking up realising I somehow burned my hand in my sleep"
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Intuitively, I'd say yes. Glyph is just an aid, representing abstract concept, which channels the magic. But who said it's impossible to do it without the glyph and there are no other ways to channel it? The concepts are the main part, not the aid to channel them. Game mechanics is a different topic.
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Sorry, I guess I was a bit too sarcastic again...
First off...yes, I never wanted to say that magic exists only through glyphs. I will refer a few times now to the "History" page (http://www.planeshift.it/history.html) on the PS website...what is kind of a problem as this page is far older than Xiosia, Dakkru and I think even older than Black Flame. So I assume this was written with only two gods in mind...and because of this probably not completely valid anymore. Still I think there are some interesting concepts there:
Guided by an ancient and powerful god, named Vodul, god of the future events, they discovered one quiet world, pierced by a crystal column full of magical power and mystery, quivering with azure energy.
Sounds a lot as if magic itself is a characteristic of Yliakum itself. So for sure glyphs are not the cause of magic.
Waiting for the day when the other peoples would come, he [Talad] carefully forged the magical power of the Crystal into many shapes and set them to appear across the realm for the Lemur and Kran to find. He had created the first Glyphs. These magical symbols appeared seemingly at random on all forms of material, from rocks and tree bark to animal hides, and were suitable to be used by the mortals to practice the art of magic.
So first...I always imagined glyphs more as the signs...not the glyph-stone items known in game and used by magicians. If I remember right there was a forum discussion once with the settings team explaining those random appearing glyphs could be bound somehow to the glyph-stones and by that make them transportable and easier usable. And the next interesting part here is that Talad formed all glyphs...no matter what magic way they are. And he did this to enable the races to use magic. Sounded for me as if no inhabitant of Ylikum has the possibility to use magic without those glyphs.
During his dull waiting, Laanx investigated the column of blue crystal above Yliakum, trying to find a way to increase his power by using its seemingly infinite source of magic. Since Talad wanted to have the mastery of glyphs and the people, Laanx would control the pure and violent power of the Crystal itself.
Again...the gods never had any need for glyphs to use magic. Glyphs are only the tools made for the races to use magic.
So, the random appearing glyphs allow of course a lot of "magic" effects all over Yliakum to be RPed. But as long as I played I was always strictly against allowing people to use magic without any glyphs. The dependence on glyphs is a big weakness of magic...but a great advantage for RPing. As magic can't be really defined with our IRL experiences it's quite easy to disagree how others use it in a RP. But once you are able to separate a magician from his/her glyphs you could eliminate the magic element from the RP and rely on RL experiences again. Capture and imprison a magician, separate him from his glyphs and you don't have to get into any OOC discussions why it should be possible/impossible for the magician to put his guards to sleep with an azure way spell. And please don't get me wrong...this is a fantasy game and magic is important for it. I never wanted to get rid of it. But RPing magic allows doing some powerful stuff...so should have an pretty annoying weakness also. And the dependence on glyphs is a clear and easy to RP weakness.
And one last thing...as Ligh mentioned it. Yes, your char can be the one exception...but ask yourself if he/she/kra should. I was never in favor of the philosophy that players should only play ordinary chars...after all this is a game you should have fun with and be able to create a nice story. But playing an very exceptional char far too often leads to an environment that sets the once exceptional trait as standard for the future. Lets say you have a female char falling in love with another female char. Should be pretty exceptional in the world of Yliakum. But now those two interact with others also...you know, a small flirt here, some smiling there, some curiosity of others...and at some point it's not that exceptional anymore. All people around start treating it as normal...a few might even follow the example. There is nobody to blame for that situation then...the initial RP might have been valid, the acceptance of their "quirk" by others might be a result from some long ongoing RP with them. But in the outcome something became normal that shouldn't be (And before someone calls me homophobic...only speaking about within the game here). And I think this can happen to almost every "exceptional" char.
Edit: typos
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I have and do Rp spells not in the general lexicon.
However I try to keep them simple more like cantrips.
The major differance being my summon gear spell.which is basically a shortcut used to summon my battle gear.
I figure since i have the summon , huminoid and armor glyph's i am not stretching any glyph related limitations.
Have seen others use spells for such things as starting fires, lighting candles and cooling beer.
I bielieve it to add a little flavor and as long as you aren't summoning a giant mountain to smite your enemys all is good.
After all this is a RP game and imagination and inventiveness is the goal.
So go ahead and pad your spellbook and add some color to your character.
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First off...yes, I never wanted to say that magic exists only through glyphs. I will refer a few times now to the "History" page (http://www.planeshift.it/history.html) on the PS website...what is kind of a problem as this page is far older than Xiosia, Dakkru and I think even older than Black Flame. So I assume this was written with only two gods in mind...and because of this probably not completely valid anymore. Still I think there are some interesting concepts there:
As mentioned on the main web site all settings pages have been updated including overview and history, if you still see the old page, you need to refresh the page or delete your cache.
As for magic, that's a bigger question and I need some time to answer properly. Consider anyway that races are coming from different planets and they were using magic before, so there can be other ways to channel magical energy. In Yliakum the glyphs seems to be the easiest known way to do so. We need to clean up and publish the history of magic document, which will clarify few things.
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So judging by the answers, the answer is that there is no answer. I actually sort of figured that would be the case, so I can't say I'm surprised. But there are a few things I'd like to mention:
I didn't ask the question because I want my character running around pounding people into the ground with POWAH! That wasn't the point. I was trying to get a grasp of what is typically allowed and what isn't, on the basis of creativity. Also, I mentioned that I'm interested in the struggle. As in, I would think this ability mostly self-desctructive, nearly impossible to control, and quite frankly so explosive the character would have to become a self-proclaimed introvert.
Seeing as settings can't answer my question and since there have been rather valid points to the contrary, I'll generate some other idea to concoct a similar character struggle, because I'm interested in the idea for development purposes. Thank you all for your replies/opinions.
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I see glyphs mainly as a focus for magic powers, enabling every sufficiently experienced user to cast spells related to one of the six ways introduced by the god Talad.
But there is more magic than just the six ways. Ask e.g. Kaiman Jilatt ... does he still teach Argan? What are Esteria and Lah'ar? They relate to energies of the body and the environment. Well possible that they enable the pupil of these schools to cast spells of a more subtle, generic kind, and without the need of glyphs even?
I will probably get scolded for just mentioning this thought, but ... after cleaning up the settings of races, how about cleaning up the settings of skills?
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Oh, a pity, Kaiman forgot about Argan...
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I'd say the developed knownledge about them lies in the skill description. Additionally I don't foresee a change on this part soon.
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Glyphs clearly provide one of the mechanisms for magic to be a defined attribute of the PS world. Without these mechanisms we would have no common reference as to what magic is or does. RP magic outside the parameters exists, but has no effect within the game. If my char wishes to cast terrible spells on a dagger to make it hideously lethal it is good theater and nothing more. This is a good thing. Likewise when my char was possessed by a nameless evil.
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Something I stumbled across when I did some quests today:
(12:42:51) [NPC] Nevis Revori says: The fact is that I used a scroll made by him to identify the items, and just those two were magical.
So there is a way to cast magic without glyphs? *hides and looks at the discussion from a bit further away*
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Gonna give my views on this.
I like the glyph idea, it gives us a solid rock to build magic on, and gives a solid weakness for a mage. (though since so many people are maxed in both anyways, hardly matters half the time) What I don't like is the idea that you can ONLY use the magic that you learn through combo's. It says in glyph descriptions that it can be 'interpreted as x, x, or y' which seems to me like you can do more creative things with them. Like a lot of you have said, Glyphs are merely a means with which to channel magic, so why not channel it into something creative?
as for the whole proximity to a glyph thing, as long as it's your glyph and its within reasonable distance (maybe... 1-2 feet maximum?) then you might as well be able to use it.
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We summon our mounts and pets from another plane without glyphs. It's clear that magic can be done with the aid of other sorts of magical items. Whether glyphs are required to create them is another question.
Nevis' scroll could explained by a spell (using glyphs) that was used to enchanted the scroll. I can see these being created as a way to enable non-spellcasters to be able to use a spell just once without a glyph. Actually, that could be an exciting thing to add to the game.
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I can see these being created as a way to enable non-spellcasters to be able to use a spell just once without a glyph. Actually, that could be an exciting thing to add to the game.
My advise would be to use caution making third party magic available. It can often be virtually impossible to balance.
- Nova
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Is there any verbose IC description about the nature and purpose of the "purification" process for glyphs? The adaption of a generic glyph to a specific character will certainly be a key step in understanding the glyph-based spellcasting.
By the way, if Talad made all glyphs, isn't it amazing how many he made?
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By the way, if Talad made all glyphs, isn't it amazing how many he made?
Venorel wonders how many scarves Talad could have knit while awaiting Laanx' forgiveness.
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We summon our mounts and pets from another plane without glyphs. It's clear that magic can be done with the aid of other sorts of magical items. Whether glyphs are required to create them is another question.
Nevis' scroll could explained by a spell (using glyphs) that was used to enchanted the scroll. I can see these being created as a way to enable non-spellcasters to be able to use a spell just once without a glyph. Actually, that could be an exciting thing to add to the game.
you could argue the spell casting was done previously and then the item has an additional functionality which was bind from a normal casting with glyph.
which isn't a spell in itself...
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Ugh...I guess I wasn't very clear in what I meant. Sorry, I never gave much about any game mechanics at all. So when I said magicians should depend on glyphs I didn't mean they should depend on the few available ones in game. I never had any problem with people modifying existing spells, inventing new spells or even inventing new glyphs in RPs (of course only as long as it stayed in reasonable limits). Aiwendil also used magic at times to light some candles (though probably not with many people around)...of course there is no "light candle"-spell in PS. But the existing spells and glyphs indicate that this shouldn't be too hard to do. My point was just that without her glyph-sack Aiwendil couldn't even light a candle (At least I can't see her rubbing wooden sticks together until she got some fire...so yes, pretty sure she couldn't). And I would never dare to talk about game mechanics. As I said, I don't care about them. My opinion is only about RPs. The dependency on glyphs is only important for RP to allow "disarming" of magicians in them. For game mechanics this whole discussion is pretty pointless in my view as there aren't any mechanics to separate a magician from his glyphs at all (And I doubt there ever will be...but funny to imagine the outcry of the PLers if pickpocketing allows stealing of glyphs from others). Just saying this as I got the impression people around here thought I suggested it should be only allowed to RP spells that actually exists in game...sorry, never wanted to say that. In fact I think the spell in game are pretty stupid and most of them are not useful for any RP. All just about killing and hurting...
As mentioned on the main web site all settings pages have been updated including overview and history, if you still see the old page, you need to refresh the page or delete your cache.
The quotes of me are already from the new version...but I still stay with my "disclaimer". The "new" version doesn't differ much from the old one and doesn't explain any of the differences. There is no explanation why Laanx and Talad "disappeared". No word if Talad's absence means that no new glyphs are created anymore. There is nothing if the arrival of the new gods changed anything...like Xiosia using her powers to grand groups of people preforming rituals some magic powers. It's good to see that the history page got finally updated...and even better that it was published despite not being finished. But with only one paragraph about the new gods it don't think it can be used to answer the OPs question alone.
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NECROMANCE!
Curious about magic. Have there been any updates? Is there an answer to this question yet?
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I'm not sure about now, but a while ago when I was reading some in-game books I came across a series about the history of magic that answers the question about magic being possible without glyphs.
Just thought I'd throw that out there :innocent:
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I'll weigh in. Take what I say with a grain of salt and draw your own conclusions.
Talad's post revealed a few answers if you read between the lines.
Is it possible? In theory.
Is it as effective as using glyphs (In Yliakum)? He didn't say.
Are there consequences? He didn't say, but I would assume there very well could be.
Is it as easy to learn as standard magic? No, it would be harder.
If your roleplay includes some form of magic that greatly differs from the game's reality, then you risk turning away players who will want to play within a more conservative view of the settings. I would say that adding your own artistic deviations to existing spells is being conservative, discovering spells that fit into your way is more liberal, while making it rain purple frogs and psychedelic drops of awesome is going to get you laughed at if not ignored.
With that said, your peers who you play with will to some extent, be your judge and jury. They will accept or reject your artistic freedom - keeping you in line with what they feel is plausible. I don't think any GM or settings people will hunt you down with torches and pitchforks if you break settings, but do keep in mind that doing so may break immersion for other players. We want to keep the fantasy world believable and consistent through our character's actions and words.
If you want ideas for how to roleplay the use of known magic, look at the race history, look at the spell descriptions for learned spells. Do the magic way quests. Think about what effects a spell might have - it's look, smell, taste, sound, and feeling. When casting Flame Burst, does the room glow with a warm orange hue as the fireball crackles and grows between your hands? Is it so bright that it's painful to look at? Can you feel its heat as it approaches? Does it smell like putrid sulphur or like fried Klyros fingers ? This sounds a lot better than "/me just stands there and a pixelated 2d image of fire hits the target for 81 points. I leap with tearful joy, for I hath grow-ith in red way." ;D
Back to the original question, ( I do realize this is an old, old thread ) If it's in released settings material - like quests or IC books, and its something than an ordinary ( non-god ) person has done, then I think its plausible that your character could accomplish the same under similar circumstances. I would just be prepared to provide curious partners with the premises that you base this on in the event that they ask.
Whisper Bless!