PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sikes on December 25, 2011, 08:34:27 pm
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Are you kidding me? i get 5 coal ores in 90 minutes as a new level 1 miner. How many new players are going to accept that? your server will get overloaded with new players who just quit and never come back!
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Have you tried to ask politely in game? Maybe you could retrieve useful informations.
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what is even sadder is that you didn't get any mining practice for any of the unsuccessful attempts. If you are digging in the right place you ought to get something for your efforts.
I am assuming you were digging in the right place most of that time. The mines have specific locations and within those locations some parts are better than others.
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I suspect that you were simply digging in the wrong place. Some mines are beter than others. And the center of a mine is always better than the outer rim. I just mined 4 iron ore within 5 minutes today with level 2 in mining. What you need to find is an experienced miner who can show you the good spots. :)
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I don't find it very hard to meet, listen to, and talk to other people. That's the real game in PlaneShift.
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ah, the old "the real game is there is no game" theory, chief! I sure hope KAOS doesn't discover it...what is all that nasty development for?
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ah, the old "the real game is there is no game" theory, chief! I sure hope KAOS doesn't discover it...what is all that nasty development for?
>_>
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Seriously, development efforts would be better directed towards integrating webcams and microphones so that the real people are better represented by their characters. You could have audio and video morphing functions that will allow you to sound however you like and imprint your features on your character model and we can all wander around pursing our lips at each other.
Who needs in game functionality when you can have a toy hammer in your hand appear in the game bashing on some poor critter?
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Never once did I disagree. This is a role-playing game. What this game is about is akin to acting a play on a stage, or a massive collaborative story-telling effort. Writing, developing, and creating personalities, characters, and stories that cannot in any way be equalled by whatever game mechanics can bring to this game.
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This game *is* hard for new players. New players are more likely to be shy, to not know many people they feel comfortable asking for help, and are more likely to try and figure things out on their own. Even if you know the coal mine's location, it's a slow chore to mine it. Even higher level miners don't do as well with coal as they do some of the other ores.
Yes, the main aspect of this game is role playing, but not everyone is comfortable simply walking up to new people and talking with them. I can promise you, if Stashka hadn't taken one look at me and decided I'd make a perfect noob-victim and talked to me, I'd not have continued playing this game. I would have been far too shy to go up to people. Even now, I'm reticent to go up to strangers, simply because *I'm* uncomfortable with it, even if my character isn't. So, what do new players do? They try to mine, or hunt, or cast spells. They play with the less-involved aspects of the game. And those levels are really hard if you don't know what to do first.
It's great to see that the devs are balancing things, that they are working on making it easier, and more user-friendly. The tutorial is much better now, and that's a great step in the right direction. But I think it will take more of a conscious effort from the existing players to help the newer players, until those noob levels can be balanced out too.
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Is it player interaction you want, or role-play? Because in this case they are mutually exclusive. I can guarantee it's not in-character for a miner to lead someone to his strike that overfloweth with ore.
It seems evident to me that this game wants to service more than just a freeform RP community (or if I'm wrong its going about it the wrong way). So maybe we should just all agree that throwing our hands up and blaming the newb for not asking isn't always going to be the answer. Sometimes the answer is going to be tweaking the rules to make the game more accessible.
Thanks for considering this point of view, even if it is immediately rejected as not belonging to the old guard.
EDIT: BTW, this is not targeted at the esteemed developers, whom with their newest changes have shown they at least "Get It".
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It looks like its kind of teasing on the following Arguments
Should Planeshift work as a stand alone game, a game playable with out intereacting?
Or
Should Planeshift force new people to interact with others in order to speed up Character Stat/Skill/Gameplay?
Both sides have folks with hardened in trenched people ready to go down to the mat to argue both sides.
I can see the orgional posters point. I can agree to it to a point. When you go through the tutoral, you end up with a rock pick, a gliff, two maps, and a leter from a friend and some Tria. Its enough to get you started out for a first character. If you say 'Create a throwaway character, just to see what the game was about' then start a more serious character, like many including my self do. The starting character starts with 0 Tria, 0 Items, like he was robbed coming off the boat. Now I got to remember which quests didnt 'cost' Tria (cause i don't have any to spend) and which where quick quests, to earn enough for the aforementioned pick, to go get some ore to start getting money so i can go back to thoes other quests I had to skip cause I had no money at the time.
A solution might be Equiping all new characters with a rock pick, and or Tria say 1,000 Enough to cover some of the early quest covers, and handle if a character wants to head off to the mines, plus a choice of weapons.
Now I believe a game should encourage role playing, AND be able to work stand alone. I'm a minority here, I know. The one big gripe I got right now with 'starting characters' other than that I just mentioned is the simple fact some items have "Minum Reqirements" that you don't find out until after you buy said item and try to equip them.
Let me give you an example RL for the above to illustrate my points.
I recently got my son on to the game. He's been playing Wizzard 101, and kept hitting their 'cap' the point where they started asking for money. So here I was with Planeshift, and i went over to his box and got him started. There where some adjustment issues, explaing actual role playing as apposed to 'trash talking' others on the server. Then walking him through the tutorial, and with the help of a fellow guild menber, who donated an Axe, shield and some Tria, we turned him loose. Granted he wanted to kill everything but rats, and was getting chased by everything but rats. But thats beside the point. He's used to calling me dad, and yep Forum name= character name, and right in front of Herihi Dwarf calles and Enki, Dad. So we had to have the in character out of character discussions.
So I figured, why not make a dwarf 'Dad' so when he comes on line, a fathery dwarf to go play with. Poof there i was with 0. Ok from playing Koru, i knew the peta handler had an easy run a round quest, then theres Harns apples, still not enough to buy pick axe. find another quest. yess. now run back grab axe, head out to the mine for load one (2 hours later) back with load one, no metelergy skill but enough to buy an axe. ok, make a secound run. 1.75 hours later) back to harns... then run all the way out to Oja for axe. Got it and got some chainmail armor!... bank fund depleated.
[Sorry you dont have enough STR to equip this item]
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So for an ALT just to play with my kid, to at least equip him with a chosen weapon. 4 hours play time. Plus frustration on something I have griped about. The please show what you can wear vs what you cant wear, so we know what we need before buying the armor/weapon/what ever.
So yes, Starting out with rock pic, Tria, and mabey a Axe/Sword/Gliff depending on "Kit" or something along those lines might be a good way to help start characters.
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Couldn't you have given your son stuff to hold for your alt from your main? I suppose that would have been too OOC and pragmatic but then again did you really think of an IC reason for that particular Enki to help that dwarf or did you do it just for the OOC ( and perfectly justifiable ) reason he was your son?
If you go through the tutorial and trash the character out of hand you are wasting resources. Perhaps it should be that any new character on an empty account ought to be sent to the tutorial instead of just the first character of a new account. Then again, unless it has changed, which it might have, if you create a new character before the first one gets out of the tutorial it too will be started in the tutorial. This way with a new account you can get 4 characters to go through the tutorial.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
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I am unsure why you think it's hard for new players. There are plenty of places to ask questions and get information such as gossip, the help channel, and just asking other players nearby. Plus I don't know what mine you were at but i can get coal every time I try for one so it's really not that hard to mine. I can also do the same for copper, tin, and iron. Plus I found it much easier to hunt (at least one eyed rats for a new player then before) and you also get more tria from the loot. Crafting training is also much easier now so it's faster to make money doing that. There are of course tricks that you need to learn but the devs made it that way so you would have to RP to find things out in game.
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Yeah, just ask in gossip or help. Oh, but no spoilers allowed.
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Couldn't you have given your son stuff to hold for your alt from your main? I suppose that would have been too OOC and pragmatic but then again did you really think of an IC reason for that particular Enki to help that dwarf or did you do it just for the OOC ( and perfectly justifiable ) reason he was your son?
He was running a dwarf and has his heart set on a battle axe, I didnt have one none of my alts did. Secound of all I'm part of a guild that helps thoes new to the city, so thats the IC reason for my character to help the dwarf, and there is also the OOC reason as well
If you go through the tutorial and trash the character out of hand you are wasting resources. Perhaps it should be that any new character on an empty account ought to be sent to the tutorial instead of just the first character of a new account. Then again, unless it has changed, which it might have, if you create a new character before the first one gets out of the tutorial it too will be started in the tutorial. This way with a new account you can get 4 characters to go through the tutorial.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Nope the secound point your correct with "One tutorial, till completed" and any new till you complete there in is granted the tutorial until one character completes the tutorial. The point being, a new user tends to finish the tutorial to see the game. He doesn't think. "O maybe none of my other characters will get a tutorial if i don't finish it. and thinks a head to get extra characters lost in the tutorial" They play the tutorial to see how the game works, get a feel for it, then enter the social part, and test it out in game. Its usually after an hour or so the sit back and decide on a few things to get serious with a game.
Every RPG computer game I played before PS was either Every new character went through the tutorial or got the option of skiping it. Or skip it and get the end result resourses. Not a 'you where robbed before entering the city no tria for you'
As far as Valentineaaron:
As far as the rats go... yeah quite a bit better since the adjustments. I'm speaking of one seeing it through a Raw new player's eyes, and a relitivly new players eyes. I am only pointing out the Stand alone VS Forced RP argument. I think it should work both ways. If someone didnt want to have to ask certian questions the game needs to be able to accomidate it through either NPC interaction etc. not Rely on other players to provide all that information.
I literaly sat down with him at his computer, made all the adjustment so that he saw all the chat rooms, he had his heart set on a dwarf with a battle axe and his first question was "Were do I buy one" well in character it was "Where is the weapons store" which of course promted the 'trip to Ojadveda' to get him his battle axe. At no time was there an NPC to give him the information, to explain guilds, to explain gossip, to explain... you see the point, it required intereaction, meaning PS fals short on the "Being able to stand alone" so players who are used to getting that information from NPC's get completely lost, let alone joining a new type of enviroment, where everyone isnt hostile in OOC settins.
Planeshift is complex, its not as simple as most games... heck I'm still learning a tone of 'basic stuff' and i been doing this for three weeks? I got time, most new users dont have the time/patience, so hence the "So hard for new players" not everyone has the time and effort to try and peice meal how everything works from other players, scattered forum posts, guides that quickly get outdated, and remembering it between gaming sessions, when things even on that level change a lot.
See my point.
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See my point.
Yes, very well explained. The idea about allowing the option to enter the tutorial with alternate characters is a great one. Heck, why not just offer a third option of Just give me the tutorial kit. ::)
- Nova
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Ah Korumak you make a good point about starting the game. Friends in my guild have seen that issue as well. It is very hard to start out the game and no what you are doing. I talked with someone in game about setting up a booth where new players start (like the explorers booth there) but one that is more like an information booth or tour guild kind of thing. it would give out valuable information that a new player will need (including of course OOC things that can be put in paranthesis so it's understood they are OOC)
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I can see how that might be helpful to some of them... we are kind of stuck with a lot of catch 22
Writing a manual is nearly impossible as by the time its done, things have changed rendering the manual, almost obsolete. It takes for a Tehcnical manual, for say, In my own experience my "D-Star" manual, takes a 4-5 hour conversation with a person to about 100 pages. Took me over 2 months to complete, revise, spell check, graphics, flow testing, first readers, repeat. Something as complex as plane shift, I'm guessing with access to all of the "Secret" data, I'm guessing 3-4 months, before the first vision of it would hit the web, already since I been here, they have added music, and magic resistance.
Would I love to have an accurate manual of all of the game commands, all of the procedures on how to do this and do that, and all of the gaming controls, or how difficult which monster was to kill, so i could gage my progress that way? Oh heck yeah. I'd even print it out and put it in a three ring binder every new version and it would probably be thumbed silly by the time the new version came out.
But thats just me, I'm the techno geek, give me data, procedures specifications, and turn me loose.
The problem you run into with a "Booth" is one keeping all that info current takes almost a small army. Look at the responses for the games official wiki. Let alone why stop to read a bunch of books when people around you are throwing spells, wandering around and having conversations. But it does give me an idea. What about a main tunnel. It would have to be up to the DEV when they redo Hydlaa's map again. Guilds could set up booths (those with guild houses) along either side of it for people new to the game that are interested in, the In game and out of game information about the different guilds. It could be literally be a tunnel from the higher levels. Drop an NPC there to be the newbie helper to point out once again basics, website, forums, wiki and the guilds.
That way with the booths, guilds can leave say an guild email address to handle people OOC who are interested in setting up an in game meeting with a character to work it out. For one it would give us guild folks access to an email address we can send basic 'set up you chat to this' 'right click the white diamond to show the guild icons' etc those kind of directions, and thus for guild newsletters what ever that particular guild needed/wanted. And secondly Give IC information about the guild and OOC information, thus Evil characters can go to Evil guilds etc. It also might help smaller guilds who are looking for new members too.
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You are talking about specifics to a minute detail though. When you first start a game you aren't really interested in every little part of the game mechanics and every piece of data about what goes on in the game. It could just be the most common asked questions new players have to help them along.
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Thats the thing about a manual.... you can dig into it as much as you want.
In the ham radio field, some "Hams" like to judge a radio about how much they can work out by not picking up the manual and just play with it. Planeshift cant really be played like that, well yet. Then it boils down to a "Guessing game." In theory a tutorial is only supposed to teach / show the minim to get one started. There still working on that point.
At this point in time there shoving the "Missing holes" of information on to us the player with an "Excuse" of 'Ask another player' in a forced RP concept. Or "Go check the forums". I've personaly bumped into quite a few players that don't want to use the forums, or the wiki and not join a guild. I met someone just a few days ago, been playing PS for a month, and had no clue there was even a buddy list, or a quick spell bar. Let alone how to bring it up. Asking a tutorial to do all that... well a bit much.
I'm hoping for the next version they will disable "Basic Chat" and selct the others and show the full menu, as well as add a "Show quick spell bar button to it" this should save a lot of "Basic questions, basic set up stuff" that it looks like you where asking for.
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I do agree with you that the unwillingness to just give out certain info is rather annoying. I'm still learning some things about the game because they just don't want to give it out, such as the equations used for combat and crafting. It's kind of silly to keep that info secret (not like we shouldn't be aware as players what we need to do to be succesful or not)
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The worst part is people already know. Either from observation or because they were told by someone who has access. Either way, those who know have a substantial advantage over the rest of us (until it's spilled on the net).
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Apart for the actual difficulty of maintaining a game manual with such structural evolution, I believe the whole point is forcing the interaction between players. Even in guilds some questions are... role-played, I think. That's the beauty of this game. If there are not enough players willing to share their spare time to help, well, that's a problem.
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I don't have issue with having to learn things that are IC info. That makes sense. But it makes no sense to keep ooc info so difficult to get. Even if you have to change it often just a basic bit of info would be so helpful. For example some info on game mechanics. How combat works and the way the system calculates chance of hitting and damage done. The defensive stats and why they matter. I have played this game for over six months now and just recently learned about what the damage modifiers really do in the game such as slashing, same for the armor ratings. And let's not mention the importance of quality to defense and damage. It's all well and good to have that info available for programmers who can understand it but they should also simplify it for the rest of us who aren't that well versed with computers.