PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: verden on December 29, 2011, 10:03:30 am
-
Should characters wearing Heavy Armor be disallowed from using magic? How about Medium Armor? This is a traditional distinction that balances fighter versus mage or clerics. Simply because PS is skill-based, rather than a class-based does not, IMHO, remove the need of class and skill balances. If it was up to me, I would have metal on the body interfere with glyphs, disallowing magic on any character wearing Medium or Heavy Armor.
-
100% agree. The damned maxed HA magic users are giving us purists a bad rap.
As for medium armor, I suppose you'll have to get more technical about how heavy it is, weather or not it would only slightly fudge up your casting, yadda yadda yadda bicker all day about it.
-
That's a bit of a radical position; some day maybe there will be anti-magic. Shall we then ban weapon skills on a warrior with high anti magic? I can't seem to see how this would be about balance. Now let's talk about coherence in regard to the settings.
I see two solutions here: wearing metal would block the flow of magic going through one's body. Wearing metallic armour on, let's say, torso and/or head would thus make one unable to cast a spell. Maybe then there would be one special, rare, expensive and hard to work with metal that allows the casting of spell.
Or, a mage have to execute very special gestures in order to cast a spell properly. Chainmail or leather wouldn't make the operation too awkward, but plated armour sure would given how it is articulated. Then maybe we could take in consideration the mage's magik skill, armour skill and agilitiy/strength stats.
-
I can't say that I agree with this one. Just because someone trains magic ICly doesn't mean they have to be a scrawny little wimp. There's nothing that says mages cannot have physical strength and stamina, and nothing to say they cannot wear armor. Does it suck when you're trying to duel them? Sure. Is it fair. Yes. That character spent the time both ICly and OOCly being trained up in the use of an armor. It's their right.
-
Mages shouldn't wear armor. They wear robes and (should) have reasonable shield spells. Any armor (and also weapons) use should significantly reduce spell efficiency. In the same way, spell usage should significantly decrease ordinary weapon and armor efficiency.
Also, effectively training for casting interferes with bodily development. Being a mage is also due to not being strong enough to be a fighter...
This is again from the perspective of a relative newcomer....
-
i use heavy armor in skyrim i don't see the problem
-
I have to stand with Weltall and Tessra on this one.
It's a bit of a far cry to ask that mages not be able to wear HA. That being said, this goes back to my age-old outcry against the HA users. There's no downside to wearing plate If a mage wants to wear HA, and he or she is properly trained in the art, than I have no problem seeing them wear it, as far as realism goes. However, said mage should be forced to deal with the exact same physical impediments that HA poses to any wearers. Namely, very little endurance, limited mobility, and greatly slowed attacks. It's full plate, people.
So yes, there should be certainly some downside to wearing plate as a mage. But that same downside should be applied to everyone who wants to wear plate.
-
i use heavy armor in skyrim i don't see the problem
Skyrim has a different setting than PlaneShift.
It's a bit of a far cry to ask that mages not be able to wear HA. That being said, this goes back to my age-old outcry against the HA users. There's no downside to wearing plate
If it's made from metal, you're clad in something that is most likely rather heavy. Maybe not as heavy as today's armors (those plates are heavy!), but still heavy.
If a mage wants to wear HA, and he or she is properly trained in the art, than I have no problem seeing them wear it, as far as realismgoes. However, said mage should be forced to deal with the exact same physical impediments that HA poses to any wearers. Namely, very little endurance, limited mobility, and greatly slowed attacks. It's full plate, people.
If you bring realism into this ...
Full plate armor covering the whole body was usually custom-made, form-fitted body armor. That is why it was so expensive. There were attempts to make the plate armor cheaper and mass-produce them, but the quality got worse of course. I would also like to point out to not confuse full plate armor with jousting armor. For example the Maximilian armor only weighted about 45pounds (20kg) with the weight distributed all over the body. A modern MTV - which is just a vest, not a full body armor, weight about 30pounds(15kg) with the weight distributed over the torso.
Even if it is convenient for balancing reasons to say that mages shouldn't wear armor and full plate is clanky and heavy (but offering perfect protection against swords) in a fantasy game doesn't mean it does actually make sense.
-
Magic is supposed to require intense study and training to be any good at it (most especially fighting with it one should think), as is wielding any sort of combat equipment even down to daggers.
If you really wanted to be realistic, it would be nigh impossible to become proficient in both of them to any degree. If you trained in magic, you wouldn't be great with weapons nor generally that strong, and vice versa if you trained in close combat. It also makes sense that something like plate armor would block the flow of magic. Magic comes from glyphs, conducted through the players body. Something like Blue Way would rust armor, Red Way could electrocute them quite badly, even before the spell got out. It makes complete sense that such armor would interfere with casting.
-
I'v said it before and I will say it again: as long as there is no official, proper source for this kind of information you can point me at, all we can do is argue about speculations and opinions on how it should be. While it might be interesting for developers to know how the players think some things should be does not mean that they are that way; hence my reluctance to actually post something here in general.
-
No, totally disallowed isn't practical. However armor type can hinder magic usage. I.e. the heavier is the armor, the less effective spells are.
-
i use heavy armor in skyrim i don't see the problem
Oblivion reduces spell effectiveness depending on the armor:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Magic_Overview#Spells
-
It would be nice if that new character development simulator that weltall spoke of could be used to find a balance between a mage and fighter through repetetive trials or something... Likewise, a balance between attack, defense, reach, delay and cost for each kind of attack - magic or physical.
As for armor, I think it should block physical things like flying stones, or a punch when necrotouch has been cast, but should fail to protect against non physical things like taste of death or weakness. I know this complicates things a bit... Just my 2 cents.
As for spell casting and physical strength, if mages must be skinny and weak, then fighters should be proportionally dumb rendering them a bit weaker regarding magical defense/resistance.
I don't think all "magic" should be treated the same.
-
Maybe the balance could take place during character development. Some type of functions could be attempted to be worked out whereby there is are relational caps between stats and skills which are combat related and those which are magic related. By maxing out on one would lower the max available in another.
For example maxing in HA would reduce the allowable maximums one could get in the ways. This is just meant as an example to explain the thought. The actual formula would be up to the devs to work out.
In this way it would work better into the RP of things. If one progressed far into combat skills it would have a negative effect of how far one could progress in magic and vis-a-vis. This would then have a more RP base to it in my opinion rather than arbitrary restrictions like in D&D rule sets.
Some type of balancing is required. Perhaps anti-magic could give that balance; yet my feeling is that more than that will be required. Having some kind of sliding formula to training seems to me a more streamlined approach requiring less additional code to many areas of the project.
- Nova
-
As for armor, I think it should block physical things like flying stones, or a punch when necrotouch has been cast, but should fail to protect against non physical things like taste of death or weakness. I know this complicates things a bit... Just my 2 cents.
It is so already, with a caveat that armor doesn't help against any spells, even such kind as Flying Stones (against which one would expect armor to help).
-
first of all the different setting argument can be used also by me. so don't point that out. second the dampening is only 5% it's negligible.
-
I am not a friend of restrictive classes and mutually exclusive skill trees, and I think it is good to leave much freedom for everyone's choices of character progression.
[...] a concept of a spell failure chance based on the type of armour worn by the caster is likely a nice approach [...]
I think the point Ikon makes in the other thread concerning magic and combat is the most reasonable approach here. An overall reduction in spellpower (damage per hit etc.) is predictable and not favorable in a system where most spells hit their maximum power limit easily. An additive contribution to the probability of spell failure however can be a relevant penalty term.
-
Disagree with this idea, yet it would be practical if people wearing a full set of HA would perform magic a good 25-50% slower. On top of that, HA really has to be nerfed again. It is still obscenely over powered, and it, as it is right now, makes dueling fairly unenjoyable.
-
There's no downside to wearing plate
That is all.
-
Adding to something Trav said... currently, a red way mage can cast electrotouch... and NOT shock the heck out of him/herself while wearing or carrying metal items. This seems to somewhat violate the laws of physics, but then again, they can surround themselves with flaming spires and not be burned too, so, I suppose the catch-all answer would be "it's magic!"
If we're going to have a myriad of magical spells that go against physics, I don't see why we should nitpick on the armor with the spells. Just examples: Rock armor should slow you down, but doesn't. Water Barrier could possibly drown some races during casting, but doesn't. Icy Blast should be very difficult for any warm-blooded race to accomplish without damage to the fingertips. Necrotouch... skeletal hand coming back to flesh after, yeah... nuff said. I'm not saying this to pick on the spells or magics, as I love most of the spells. I'm just saying.. IT'S MAGIC... and we shouldn't use it to pick on armor. It allows for things to be done that couldn't otherwise be done, and allows for certain effects to be circumnavigated. That being said, I don't see why there isn't a spell out there that would negate the weight of the armor entirely :P
-
Dont add to my statement with the express purpose of disagreeing with it, that isnt adding at all, that'd be subtracting.
There IS a spell that reduces weight, its called Ant Weight and its in Brown Way. The reason your own magic isnt affecting yourself is because its YOUR magic. You're willingly make it not screw you over. Rock armor expressly states its WEIGHTLESS. Unless im remembering correctly, nothing about water barrier states its going directly in contact with your face so that you breathe it in.
None of this will ever get resolved though unless some settings dev has something in the settings docs about armors relation to magic, till then, have fun dealing with people who cannot be harmed due to their HA without any sort of consequence to anything else.
-
Lots of games and settings have made justifications for why magic users can't use armor, but they usually don't stand up to intense scrutiny. E.g. if metal negates magic then why don't enemies wearing armour get spell resistance? Or if you are unable to make finite gestures in heavy armor doesn't that preclude swordplay and archery also? I always loved how Gandalf wielded a sword, though the archtype thereafter lost any martial ability. I think he could have worn armor if he wanted, but must have had his reasons.
Just an interesting tidbit, there's an article[1] that says the biggest drawback of heavy armor is fatigue. This gels with my own experience wearing plate for re-enactment. It's not a question of whether someone can run around and do crazy stuff wearing full plate - they absolutely can. Armor when worn correctly is comfortable and manoeuvrable (I have climbed a tree in it). The drawback is it quickly becomes hot, tiring and if you are wearing a helmet you lose visibility.
Each character should have to decide through cost benefit analysis if it is worth it. A warrior magic user might, but a roguish mage probably wouldn't. The trick is to reflect that in game mechanics and set limits so that focusing on one grants more mastery than focusing on both. It's not a 50/50 thing though, which means you suck at both, but more of a 70/70 thing. You can gain proficiency fairly quickly, but after the low hanging fruit it is mastered you get diminishing returns. That should go for all skills.
[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14204717
-
[...] the biggest drawback of heavy armor is fatigue. [...] it quickly becomes hot, tiring and if you are wearing a helmet you lose visibility.
That summarizes it nicely. Once mental and physical stamina will be relevant factors in the arcane and martial arts, they could provide an intuitive and powerful mechanism to reflect the differences between wearing heavy, medium, light or no armor.
-
Agreed, Bonifarzia. However, it would be important not to neglect the restriction of movement that heavy, full-metal plate imposes, as well.
-
Bonifarzia, I agree wholeheartedly. Though, let us not forget that each individual piece of armor interlocked in such a way as not to hinder free movement.
I dunno, I guess when we directly contradict someone we pretend they never said anything and address a different person instead. That way we can speak from authority without the need for reasoning or reference.
-
In DnD there is the concept of Concentration, when a caster is hit while casting they do a concentration throw to decide whether their spell is interrupted or not. Maybe something similar could be applied here, but using dexterity. When a caster is hit (by any type of attack) they pass a dexterity throw to see if they can keep casting under these cirumstances. Since HA reduces dexterity conciderably we already have a good reason for mages to avoid HA.
On the other hand, if someone wants to use both magic and HA no matter what they can still do it and train till they have great enough skill in magic and HA to make the penalty more affordable but without negating it.
-
In my consideration of various takes on this subject, it would seem as though, in PlaneShift, it is important to consider the existing system as a whole. Meaning that it may not make sense to cap or limit individual skills such as HA but to consider it from the concept of Realm Balance. So that someone who works on HA, Crystal Way, and Agility would have very different possibilities and limitations from someone who focuses LA, Cooking and Charisma. The magical Ways that are already part of the settings provide a starting point for Balancing the Realms. That's all for now, thanks to all for keeping the drama low key in this post and your perspectives.
-
In DnD there is the concept of Concentration, when a caster is hit while casting they do a concentration throw to decide whether their spell is interrupted or not. Maybe something similar could be applied here, but using dexterity. When a caster is hit (by any type of attack) they pass a dexterity throw to see if they can keep casting under these cirumstances. Since HA reduces dexterity conciderably we already have a good reason for mages to avoid HA.
On the other hand, if someone wants to use both magic and HA no matter what they can still do it and train till they have great enough skill in magic and HA to make the penalty more affordable but without negating it.
This seems like a nice solution to me. :thumbup:
- Nova
-
I think if you're looking for a disadvantage to make HA less powerful movement speed is an important thing to consider. Then again this probably has less to do with the armor itself and more with the weight. I think movement speed should be effected by both weight carried and armor worn. After all, it doesn't make sense that a character can run full speed while carrying 150 kg but at 151 suddenly you can't stand up anymore. I'm not suggesting anything too dramatic, maybe a linear increase up to 10% speed reduction if your inventory is completely full. Also maybe 1% penalty for heavy boots, 2% for legs and 2% for torso. Perhaps half as much for medium armor and little to no penalty (besides weight) for light. This makes sense realistically and could add a new angle to gameplay. If you're a thief or assassin you'll be encouraged to wear light armor and not weigh yourself down with a full inventory so you can (try to) outrun anyone chasing you. Unarmed civilians would have an advantage of being able to outrun armored attackers (unless their inventory is full... miners would be particularly vulnerable).
Anyway, getting back on topic. I do think that heavier armor should reduce either casting speed or probability of success at least a little bit.