PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Talad on December 31, 2011, 05:15:37 pm
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The long wait is finally over ! ;) Magic resistance has arrived... but don't get too excited because it's not the complete system yet.
Thanks to the new rules balancing, many of you tested more the combat system, and reported the need to fix the balance in power of a pure wizard and a pure fighter. Wizards have the advantage of range, plus they can defend themselves against weapons with armor. Fighters cannot defend themselves from magic, apart from a basic saving throw applied to spells.
We have added now in game a first version of the magic resistance implementation. Thanks to Weltall for the implementation!!
Up to today many powerful spells had the concept of a "saving throw". Basically you roll a dice on one of your skills/stats and see if you resist the power of the spell. This is based on stats/skills of the victim. For example "do a test on your Crystal Way skill against a difficulty of 100 to resist". This concept has two problems: first, many saving throw are based on magic ways knowledge, so you need to be a wizard to resist to magic reasonably. Second the result of the saving throw is a yes or no, allowing little flexibility (so you either resist to the spell or not). This concept for now is still in place, and so you will still see monsters/players negating the effect of a spell.
A new concept of magic resistance has been introduced in all offensive spells and to many monsters. The magic resistance value goes from 0 to 200, and it's different for every Way. The result is a percentage of damage reduction for a certain Way. So for example if a monster has 100 in Red Way Resistance, he will have 50% (100/200) resistance to all Red Way spells.
At the moment only monsters have magic resistance, and every monster have been granted different resistances, up to 190! Meaning that they will be basically immune to certain magic. No monster has more than 3 Ways resistance, and the majority have one or two, so there is always a way to kill it with magic. The trick here is to know which way to use with which monster and to group with other players who have that Way at high ranks.
The next step is to introduce magic resistance for players as well, which will come in the form of items, armors, rings, weapons, ... It's important to note you cannot train magic resistance as it's not a skill. Most likely the first implementation for players will be on random loot weapons. Magic resistance available to players will rebalance the magic vs. weapons discussion, so if you know your opponent you could gear up your char to resist that particular Way of magic.
So get in game and test your spells on monsters!! It's active now!
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I applaud this but am a little confused, does this replace the anti-magic skill or is it still to be implemented? If all players are going to get magic resistance will kran get more or will their projected restrictions on magic used be eliminated? I suppose it is still too early for a definitive answer but more information would be appreciated.
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Yeah thats what I'm wondering too, doesn't this basically make Anti-Magic obsolete?
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Yes, anti-magic will be removed. It was one skill against all magic, which was not flexible. For Kran we can assign some value of magic resistance by default, but I would keep it low like 10% or so.
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I'm excited to see this. Will a monster with magical resistance still give practice values for training magic? If so, that might be a very, very good thing for training.
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Excellent idea. Very much looking forward to this.
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Having been testing this for about 20 minutes... can I just say I love you guys? This is a VERY good thing!
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Only resistance I've found that doesn't make much sense is ulbers seem to have wildly varying resistances depending on their type. Maulberlords and regular Maulbers have RW resistance to a massive degree (while someone having fur, iunno) yet no BrW with them huge muscles. Vilenauts have the RW as well as BrW resistance, and I ran out of time before I could find a regular ulbernaut.
Everything else has a reason, Riverlings have gills so they'd obviously be resistant to BlW, Consumers are supposed to eat corpses and stuff so DW makes sense on them, Fire Carkass' are well... Fire, so yeah.
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Does this mean that the resistance high casters have now for magic ways will be removed from the game?
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Why is there dw resistance for Ulbers? What it is the reason?
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This is a much appreciated and long time needed addition. \\o//
It is understandable you decided to abandon the concept of antimagic, but I always liked the idea to have a trade-off between your characters overall magic competence and resistance. Anyways, we could still have random loot modifiers that grant spell resistances and penalize mental stats or way skills at the same time.
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This is a great addition! One question about "saving throw". Looks like that's the reason some spells fail completely on most creatures. Two examples - Icy Ground and Choking Gas. They work only on very low mobs (like rats) and always fail on anything significantly stronger. Can you please check if something is broken with them (and may be "saving throw" concept messes them up?). Also, with resistance there shouldn't be a need for a second reduction system (of that saving throw) since it only adds confusion.
Now what's missing are defensive spells against other spells (may be those spells can increase the resistance temporarily). Would be also great to add an option for non mages to use potions to increase resistance. Potentially it'll give some market for alchemists to create high q potions, but I probably think too far ahead here :). Using enchanted items with resistance is not a bad idea, but only when those items are craftable (see the proposal for spells with crafting for enchantments). So far it's not the case, and looted items are limited to 50q as known.
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\\o//
Thanks a lot!
With the skill removed, high Way skills or Items and high Willpower are the only way to create a magic-resistant character who is still somewhat able to cast low-realm or supportive, non-harming spells?
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Using enchanted items with resistance is not a bad idea, but only when those items are craftable (see the proposal for spells with crafting for enchantments). So far it's not the case, and looted items are limited to 50q as known.
that's an issue i foresee as well. Also, for characters who shun magic, but would also like to protect themselves from magic, an enchanted item is the only way to go... and kinda defeats the purpose. If the creatures of Yliakum gain their magic resistance naturally, can there be a naturally occurring magic resistant material or a magic resistant alloy from which armors can be crafted? Or does Icerra have to start wearing Kran skins to protect herself?
...actually, that's not a bad idea. Hear me out, if the creatures are resistant to magic, it stands to reason that any armor crafted from their hides should be resistant as well, yes? So, some finely crafted riverling skin leather gloves should offer some protection against Blue Way. Or did I just make the developers working on leathercrafting groan in agony?
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I just had the same thought Aramara. For example lumium / crystal steel or some other metals and alloys can naturally provide higher resistance to magic. But in general this should be achieved with potions for non mages characters. It will allow using your items of choice, with having access to managing resistance. (Mages should be able to manage resistance with magic - i.e. special spells). I agree, that restricting resistance boost to 50q looted items defeats the purpose.
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I am curious what everyone thinks about maybe adding another limitation to magic use. One of the problems in game right now is that mage/warriors are nearly invulnerable. I think it would be a good idea to limit magic casting in armor. You could prevent it at all in heavy armor, or seriously reduce the spell effectiveness. It would limit the ability of warriors to cast magic while fighting in their armor but it would also force mages to wear robes instead of any armor at all. That is what they do in most games I have seen because otherwise the magic users are too strong. And I did get into a fight recently with a maxed out warrior while I had no armor on. I'd have won because of the distance involved since he attacked me from far away but he started using healing magic to get back health and was able to kill me in close quarters. I think taking away the ability to cast while in armor of any kind will even out the game faster then any other changes.
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Kind of comes down to that old argument else where.
No ones online you know, what to do, Quest, train, kill, repeat till maxed.... Top in swards... next magic... repeat. So yeah the old timers are all maxing out Armor, Swords and Magic. They got their characters and names, and starting is pain full, so why 'limit'. if you dont limit they can keep going on and doing something waiting for others and prospective newbies to join (if evil) and go sick em. plus already have that 10+ in mining so mining for something isnt as painful as it would be with a new character. Plus people would have to know X is their alt etc. Easier to go with the same character.
You prevent Warriors from using magic, what are they going to do when maxed out, and they dont want to craft or mine... hava a heart Valentinaaron. (can you read the sarcasm)
But is going to boil down to the DEV and the world setters as arguments go back and forth. AD&D, they had that argument for years. pointed to all the same sources then came up with a solution, a "Battle Mage" with a very limited spell selection, but they allowed armor for it with out the penalties. But they didnt allow the extra perks of a fighter. Thats one solution. Imagine a warrior only limited to healing magic.... and no 'offensive spells, except 'cold' and the like.
Other worlds have magic coming from other sorces that allow magic and armor together as one, as part of an all around concept of a fighter. Others its black and white one with out the other.
If your going to go Magic user=no phyical armor, than they need magic Item/spell to make it capable to the warrior side. After all you get bum rushed by a warrior in full plate, a robe and a wind aint going to do squat. If there is the equivlent, I havent seen it yet.
So I think its up to the Dev/world setters to define thoes lines. Me personaly I always like the seprate issue. Mages cant wear armor. rule. Why, mages spend so much time money and effort, getting the items, spells etc, also have to contend with people who have a lot more time to play than we do, and can power up in both and have the best of both.
My character who originally started out as "Just a bard" now has come to the fact, hes going to need some kind of defense, or some kind of combat ability to defend him self from (evil characters). So now not only do I have to beef up the musical instruments, but now magic, and armor, and armor training, plus ways to make even more tria, and moe PP to pay for it, even then I'm still short in weapons, and don't stand a chance against seasoned characters, and characters that have been on the server for years. So my opinion is biased.
So in short i think its going to boil down to the world setters, and their opinions and a decision their of.
Just my Two Tria for what its worth.
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Good point. There are actually defensive spells in the game that can protect you from physical blows. The only issue with them is that at the moment they are tied into the defensive ratings of your armor. So if you have no armor on the spells don't do a thing. If they changed that around I think it would work great. And as for the bum rushing warrior, well he better be really close or have good magic resistance because even at a full run he'll be dead pretty quick.
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At the moment there is no way for players to have magic resistance, but this is going to change soon. We want to add two prinary ways of resisting magic:
- loot items will have modifiers for magic resistance (this will apply to already existing items)
- armor crafting. Crafters will be able to add magic resistance to armors, making their work very useful. We are about to finish leatherworking, and we will test adding the magic resistance on top. After that other armor making will follow.
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We are about to finish leatherworking,
*A jubilation can be barely heard from somewhere deep in a stinky, dusty lab hidden in a stinky, dusty city.* \\o//
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Great! My flaky diaboli char can finally get a paying career leatherworking. And prove that she isn't doing it *just* to make whips and bondage gear. :devil:
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*A jubilation can be barely heard from somewhere deep in a stinky, dusty lab hidden in a stinky, dusty city.* \\o//
*Drags Minks out of the dusty lab and joins the jubilation*
Seriously, I am looking forwards to seeing these features in game.
And its good that some of the discussion here was forked into a separate topic.
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Great! Craftable magical items are very welcome.
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Please consider also magic resistance in magic itself. As was discussed already, Water Barrier can for example resist RW spells, while Flame Spire can resist BLW and so on. It's just an example, I don't mean that these particular spells should be specifically used. There can be special spells to temporarily defend oneself against specific magic attacks.
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I agree Gilrond, it would be nice if spells could resist other magic as well. Would be helpful at times when you fight another mage.
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Agreed with that. However, that's tempting the option of simply making Anti-Magic an alternate magical way. In that case, you'd have everyone immune to magic. :P
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What would be nice is magic resistance was applied to light armor only - thus bringing its value closer to that of plate.
At the moment, it doesn't really make sense to train LA when you could train medium or heavy instead.
A more reasonable compromise might be to make light armor much more conducive to magic resistance, and heavy armor less conducive.
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Benefits of LA should be applied to combat besides magic. HA should hinder speed more than LA for example.
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it seems to me you guys are rehashing arguments currently taking place in other, various threads.
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Making penalties for the heavier armor would be the only thing you would need to implement. If you got tired real quick while wearing it and also you move much slower that would be enough to tempt those to choose lighter armor. Plus I still think you need to reduce magic effectiveness in heavier armor. Part of the trouble is you have players with maxed out HA casting realm 5 spells so they are nearly immune to combat and magic damage. Prevent them from combining magic and heavy armor, or reducing the effectiveness of the spells would fix that issue real quick.
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it seems to me you guys are rehashing arguments currently taking place in other, various threads.
Exactly. I've beaten this to death, and I won't extend it into here, but I'll suffice to say: There's no disadvantage to wearing plate. But, As Aramara rightfully points out, that's a different topic, for a different thread.
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While I agree with you Caraick that it is a different subject I think it only reinforces consensus and will help things get changed the more we talk about it. However I am not sure about what changes the new combat system will do to the benefits and disadvantages of armor. From what I have heard it's probably going to completely change the system.
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There's no disadvantage to wearing plate.
Has this been verified by using blunt weapon with high skill in it?
- Nova
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Well, there should be some disadvantage. For example for those who would attempt to swim in it ;)
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well the disadvantage of blunt weapons should be more pronounced but I assume it's there since if you look at the basic stats of the armor plate mail defends less against piercing and blunt weapons. But there should be more disadvantages then that. Last time I checked you weren't very maneuverable in heavy armor
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Plate Mail has a weight.
With a lot of weight carrying around, one gets exhausted slightly faster, physical stamina drops at least a little bit when running (with physical stats at 200; I don't bother getting more, simply walking is already recreating). So there is at least an academic disadvantage. Just not a practical one, quite unimportant.
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As you said, LigH, the academic disadvantage to wearing plate currently is pretty much nonexistent. With maxed physical stats, and about 300kg in my inventory, I can run pretty much indefinitely.
Once again. There is no real disadvantage to wearing plate. None at all
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I have logged in recently for the first time in a while and may continue to do so to see how it has progressed.
I have to say, I'm surprised that you have implemented magic resistance when, as far as I've noticed, magic still needs a lot of work before it becomes widely used. Many spells don't work, it takes forever, lots of PP, and tons of money to train in for little results, many level 1-3 spells are more effective than level 4 ones and offensive spells just seem way underpowered when compared to weapons. I think you should work on the current magic system a bit before you implement new things.
Does any one else agree or am I completely off base here?
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You are a bit off base. There are many spells now that were available to kill even the toughest critters. Magic resistance has evened up the killing rate between magic and weapons.
For example with high 2 digit sword skill and a mid range crafted sword I could not touch a vilenaut. With a basic spell I could kill it in a minute or so. Now it resists my spell, depending on which ways it resists, and it is much harder to kill it with magic. I still can't do much to it with the sword....
There are many spells now and a whole training system that gives you access to the glyphs through quests. It was truly a golden age for mages.
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Yeah I was going to say, if there was a current disadvantage it would be towards combat not magic. While realm 3 spells can, and many realm 4 can be rather puny realm 5 are not. With spells like fist of the volcano and animate shadows you can take down the toughest creatures, excluding the special npcs, in no more then 4 hits. Doesn't seem to puny to me. Now what would be nice is if they can implement the spells that effect the mind or physical attributes of targets more. A spell that "holds" an enemy so they can't move, or actually blinds them so they can't see you, or one that even slows the creatures down would be invaluable to a mage.
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I believe the magic is in the process of big redesign, but details aren't published yet.
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I think combat is going through big changes as well. So these discussions might be moot. But then again they might help devs see issues that need to be dealt with when they make the changes. I am interested to see all the changes that will be coming soon. Though I have heard rumors that when those changes take place the system will be wiped.