PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Talad on January 04, 2012, 01:27:25 am
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Hi! In the last few weeks we decided to finalize the work done by Stelanso on the paths and make those operational. Many new utilities have been added in game by Magodra for the devs to manage paths, it's great stuff which allows us to finally edit paths in game, without external programs. Those new capabilities accelerated greatly our progress on paths, and after some work and testing we released a first version on the main PS server. Most NPCs of hydlaa and ojaveda now have day/night cycles. Those are not yet fully fixed/reviewed, but should be good enough to bring more life to the cities, and have them look more real.
Next steps are:
- fix the rotations after completing a path (some NPCs are facing the wrong direction after moving)
- fix the disappearance of some NPCs (in certain cases after they go home, they never come back)
- review the guard shifts, and ensure those are realistic and meaningful. At the moment for example Utno extends himself a bit more into east hydlaa.
- define some NPCs which will be available only at night (example Zak may roam hydlaa at night?)
- Add more RP deepness to each NPC and their movement, like having them say something when reaching a location, meeting other NPCs, going to shop, etc...
Please provide your feedback on this topic, and let us know if you see any NPC stuck. If you have any other suggestion on this topic feel free to let us know.
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Heh, Zak at night. thats interesting
Also i noticed two NPC's that go up to the Laanx statue (presumably to worship I guess?) but they face off at weird angles, if you need to know their names to correct it when you go about that its Roya and Kaiman
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Should moving NPCs stop if you'll try talking to them? Will you also enable moving creatures in the wild?
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NPC's don't walk around players currently. It was a bit distracting to have an NPC walk through two players roleplaying in the street near the Library. Luckily the guards' sword didn't seem to kill either of them. ;)
Does Jirosh have a back-up for when he leaves, so we can get materials out of storage to continue crafting?
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Will you also enable moving creatures in the wild?
NPCs moving about town is a step up, and I'm sure no small feat of programming, but, well, I've made my view of NPCs known.
But moving creatures in the wild would be keen. What I'd really like to see is migrating herds, or roving packs in the wild, ideally they would spawn at the edges of the map, make a course through the map, and vanish off another edge, giving the sense of a more expansive landscape. Their course would be dictated by differentiated behaviors, timid herbivores would avoid populated areas or well traveled roads, while more aggressive carnivores may track down and attack travelers. I know creature behavior was a big part of GSOC, so i'm excited to see what you guys came up with
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Moving quest related NPCs is going to make it harder for players to quest - especially for newer players. While this is nifty, I think the most practical use would be to move NPC guards so that it looks like they are patrolling the area. ( letting hydlaa guards attack those with drawn weapons on sight might be nice too, but I won't go there xD )
Having mobs wander would make the game look more realistic - epsecially if they moved in packs - taking long routes thoughout the map. A group of wandering bandits, traders, or clerics(for the baddies to loot) might be nifty too ( assuming you can attack them )
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the work in gsoc regarded tribes and wasn't actually entirely completed.
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Just pointing out that some of the NPC movements might need rethinking, unless the quest scripts are also changed e.g. Tilavi sends me to Hirenn cos she wants a night off and can't go herself, and then who should wander into Hirenn's while I'm talking to him but Tilavi herself. I'm like, "Screw it, do your own errands, fenki."
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Fantastic! Get 'em all moving and we'll sort it out later. Hoping for rogues coming out at night, as well as beasts sleeping during the day. Missing NPCs may seem like a problem for some, but people will get used to it. Although having nightshift duplicates of some NPCs, like a guy who runs the smithy at night, would not be a bad idea.
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Just pointing out that some of the NPC movements might need rethinking, unless the quest scripts are also changed e.g. Tilavi sends me to Hirenn cos she wants a night off and can't go herself, and then who should wander into Hirenn's while I'm talking to him but Tilavi herself. I'm like, "Screw it, do your own errands, fenki."
From my experience with fenkis, that behaviour is perfectly consistent.
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Nice work!
One stuck path:
Bjorid is stuck in the front gate of Oja at around 1 o'clock (PM).
Greetings,
Symasta
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I was wondering tonight if a shorter day cycle would make sense. There is no apparent reason why a 24 hour cycle is needed and it might be better if various npcs were unavailable for shorter periods more frequently. Of course as long as there is no exhaustion mechanism for player not resting npc unavailability will be an issue.
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From my experience with fenkis, that behaviour is perfectly consistent.
;D Our char should have a chat concerning what else yours can tell mine about fenkis...
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ok probably going to get flamed for this.... (dons helmet) :sweatdrop:
I just started the "Zak in the box" quest... no spoilers other than to say part of it was to find a specific NPC... Zak. All over the dungeon... no where. All over Hydlaa... nope, went up the tower.. nope... not hiding out at the magic shop... not buried in walls... not in east hydlaa. I was tempted to check under a few skirts... but i restrained my self. I went down EVERY road in Hydlaa+east, no where to be seen.
I spent over 3 hours trying to find one npc to hand him something, tracing and re-tracing my steps going to every part in the entire City of Hydlaa i had access to, over and over again just in case i caught him on the move. Guess what I gave up after three hours cause it ain't worth the aggravation. >:( >:( >:(
Now that out of my system... I'm all for roving NPC Guards, Townsfolk walking around to make it seem populated. But please for the love of everything rash and reasonable. Keep the Armorers, Quest NPC's, Trainers, Still. It's hard enough figuring out who its supposed to be, Where there supposed to be, at what levels there supposed to be in game with out adding to the fact, there on vacation, buried in the walls, or jumped off the map.
Thank you :'(
I'll just shut up now.
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Zak.
Pretty sure he has his reasons to hide from you. Or well, anyone for that matter.
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There is no apparent reason why a 24 hour cycle is needed
I hope you mean 24 in-game hours ... but yes, why not making NPCs have both a longer noon break (siesta) and a shorter night break instead to balance it. This idea will probably work well in the area of Ojaveda, which appears like a desert to many players.
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rabartus and darven stand on the same spot (inside each other) near the laanx temple between 9 pm and 2 am, possibly longer
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Zak is currently in his normal place. I'm not certain if he is one of the moving NPCs or not at this point.
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@LigH yes I meant the in game clock which has 24 real-time-abbreviated hours. Unfortunately this would likely entail a lot of work balancing npc movement as the proportion of time they spend traveling from one place to another would increase.
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rabartus and darven stand on the same spot (inside each other) near the laanx temple between 9 pm and 2 am, possibly longer
they're cuddling, leave them be.
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rabartus and darven stand on the same spot (inside each other) near the laanx temple between 9 pm and 2 am, possibly longer
they're cuddling, leave them be.
+1
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rabartus and darven stand on the same spot (inside each other) near the laanx temple between 9 pm and 2 am, possibly longer
they're cuddling, leave them be.
:thumbup:
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The other day Burdess Quirain disappeared in the middle of a conversation (after taking the filleting knife but before paying me).
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See - making quest relevant NPCs moving is just as annoying as making them killable (reported years ago about the sewer fanatics).
This way, PlaneShift is developing from a playable and enjoyable game to a graphic demo you can just watch but not use... well, exaggerated. But in the current state, there are more issues than use in movable NPCs.
I'll make a Feature Request in our bugtracker for you about postponing the movement while an NPC is in an unfinished quest dialog or trade. — PS#5502 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray/index.php?do=details&task_id=5502)
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Arian and Frilaa stand inside each other at the fountain where Arion normally is at 3 pm.
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This way, PlaneShift is developing from a playable and enjoyable game to a graphic demo you can just watch but not use...
I feel this way more and more with each update.
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While the idea of npc's moving around can make the game more interesting, having them disappear to go off to sleep leaves parts of Hydlaa and, in particular, the main area of Ojaveda seem almost deserted for long periods of time. It can be annoying taking a long trip to visit an npc for a quest or training only to find they're not around for quite a while, particularly in Oja where the few remaining npc's don't respond to quest requests and there are often no players around rp'ing.
This is compounded when the npc engine isn't fully working as it seems some npc's don't return. For example, npcs such as Govell, Burdess, Darven, Taulim, Ervin plus a couple of others haven't been around at all today all of whom are key to quests. .. and I'm surprised the Hydlaa pterosaur didn't fly off as it has been left unattended most of the day ::)
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there are often no players around rp'ing.
so let's just replace all the players with NPCs.
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The NPCs could use night shift backups. Ideally, realism gives way to good game play in a case like this.
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Heh heh ... seriously, Illysia's "Blessed with suck" phrase comes to mind when I hear about these these quest depenent NPCs going M.I.A. Its as if whoever implemented it thought it would be wonderful for them to roam about, but forgot what its like to be a player who needs to complete a quest, or a confused noob who has no clue where any of these NPCs are to begin with.
The wandering NPC does add to the realism, but at a heavy price as far as game play and frustration level goes.
If there was a way to track down the wandering NPCs, then perhaps it would not be so bad. ( ie. if you could /shout their name in the NPC tab (please, not in main!) and get a response or something )
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Being able to ask Allelia where they are would work as she doesn't go anywhere. I think she is already supposed to be able to tell players where certain NPCs are. And you just love that term don't you? :P
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The wandering NPC does add to the realism, but at a heavy price as far as game play and frustration level goes.
I'm of the opinion that any NPC, wandering or not, only detracts from the realism and immersion of the game. I don't log on to play with automatons; I have other games for that; I log on to play with people. I've used the term 'vending machine' to describe how the NPCs function in PS, and I stand by it, just now they're vending machines on wheels.
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I'm of the opinion that keyboards virtual or not detract from the realism and immersion of the game. I call it teletype telepathy.
:P
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I like the moving npc's. It always was pretty disturbing for me to find them at 5 in the morning and at 11 pm, rooted to their place. It is not convenient, but by far more logic _and_ nice the way it is now.
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There are games without npc’s where you can rp (and which I play). However I believe this topic is about game mechanics (which many rp’ers enjoy as well as to rp) and providing feedback to the developers regarding its impact on the player base so I’ll stay on topic.
Many players, from new to old, depend on the availability of the npcs to either quest or train. The older players will learn the timed wandering or short disappearances quite quickly. However for newer players especially the frustration may make or break their interest in the game. If they have spent some time travelling to see the npc this can be doubly frustrating.
As mentioned before there are a number of Hydlaa npcs who have (still) not re-appeared due to the npc server not being fully operational which highlights the problem (I now have 4 quests on hold awaiting their return). Consider, for example, if this list had included Harnquist, Trasok, Levrus and Jayose. I wonder how many players would have logged off or newer players abandoned the game completely? If it had included the new leather trainers (at least one was often disappearing previously for a break) the new leather skills would not have been testable for the last few days.
While npcs taking time away to sleep for example may seem to be more natural I think this needs to be balanced against the added frustrations players may feel, and prolonged absences in particular need to be avoided.
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Maybe one should make clear to newcomers that there is thew possibility to not find an npc, and one has to look for her/kra/him or to hunt some rats meanwhile, or dig some ore or whatever. Or find someone to talk to, do some rp-ing, or wahtever you like. No problem. Where I live in rl you also fail miserably if you want to buy some milk at 4am :)
Obviously, PS is not a game for the impatient anyways. So, this is something it has to live with.
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In real life, nobody tells you "go find xyz" without telling you what town or country they live in - likewise, you would ask for clearer instructions.
If the quests were a little more specific, then the wandering npc thing would be less of an issue. If I knew that npc x was stationed at a watch tower at the eagle fort, then I could camp out there until he/she comes back or search the vicinity.
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For what it is worth the fact that NPC trainers have not been available in Hydlaa on the times my character has gone there to train has been the last straw to bring about my almost complete inactivity.
Hydlaa, itself, is so painful to now load that to then not find the NPC trainers present is just too frustrating to bother much any more.
Perhaps it is only me that has been affected thusly; perhaps not; yet it is one less player as a consequence.
This is not mentioned as a complaint but as a heads up for the admin who appear, on other threads, to be concerned with the decreasing player base.
- Nova
[ Edit: When about to log in this evening it came back to me that my character is in need of shield training. So rather than log in this message was posted instead.]
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I must say moving npc's are a good idea and they add to the realism. But at the same time we need to be careful that we don't make the game so real that it becomes unbearable. I think we could use a improved quest tracker that tells us if the npc is available and a the rough location so we are not running all over creation looking for someone thats not even there.
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I hate to say it but I just don't see day/night cycles ever completely working. It makes sense from a realism point of view but not from a practical point of view.
The game has a time cycle, but we the players are not on the same cycle. And we never will be. So it's not like all characters are running around during the day time and "asleep" at night. Players play when we have the time. The ingame time that corresponds to varies so characters are running around the world 24-7 game time. And we're in all different time zones on top of that. Having NPCs be on a cycle that cannot be in synch with players just leads to limitations and annoyance.
Either nix the idea of day-night cycles, or hold off on it until there is "shifts" for every merchant/trainer. And quests are another issue completely since they usually refer to specific NPCs.
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Having NPCs be on a cycle that cannot be in synch with players just leads to limitations and annoyance.
Have to agree with Mordaan on this one. Hate to see players leave PS over this issue, but I have when the only time they can log in is when certain NPC's disappear.
More than once NPC's have crossed my path when I wasn't looking for them at the time and needed to complete a quest :thumbup: or walked right through me when roleplaying with their weapons in hand. :-X
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I think a better idea would be to have scripted paths in SMALL areas.
BAD ideas:
NPCs required for quests and/or training disappearing, even for two minutes. Ever. I don't need to tell you why.
NPCs being impossible to locate or track down because their movements are erratic or carry them long distances.
NPCs that won't stop to interact with you when they're moving, or are confused about where they're supposed to be.
GOOD ideas:
Harnquist drops his hammer and runs off to gather some apples once or twice a day for maybe an (in-game) hour or two before returning to his post would be a good idea to give him some life without causing a whole lot of frustration for newbies or experienced players. Of course, he'll still stop to talk to travelling adventurers should they need him. Trasok does something similar, hopping over to Brado's to grab a beer before returning to work.
Guards don't have shifts or disappear, they have patrol routes. They'll sit at point A for a few (in-game) hours then move to point B (which is at least still in the same general area) and chill out there for a while before returning.
Small 'wandering' packages for creatures and monsters that would give them some life but keep them within a very small and confined wandering area. Unless of course they were more migratory, then a whole pack of them could be given a wide roaming path. Could lend A LOT of life to the wilderness, especially if monsters were given an aggression range.
Rogues and cutthroats stalking passing players in the same strength range as them would provide a pretty unique experience as well - I think I saw this idea mentioned elsewhere. Especially if these were added to the alleyways of the various cities and they only came out at night.
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Let's conclude: The "technology demo" of day cycles and moving NPCs was effective (it worked, technically). But not very efficient due to the chosen constraints (with an annoying result).
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NPCs moving about makes the game more realistic.. its a nice touch.. If the NPCs remained easy to find, then it would be great. One way might be to give them shorter travel paths with more frequent cycling of locations.
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Yes, moving NPCs I think is inevitable. It does make the game come alive. I was speaking specifically to the day/night cycles where NPCs are completely gone for the night/a period of time. Like guards on patrol or even Harnquist going to the tavern. That would be nice to see. But if they're gone completely, it's just too much of a hindrance. It's the kind of thing that gives people a reason to NOT play, instead of a reason to play.
We need to find a balance between keeping the NPCs "alive" and having it not be too big a hindrance to game play. For -right now- I think we should have most of them stay put until all of that is sorted.
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My opinion is that quest based NPCs should currently not move or just move around in a small area.. like a guard walking up and down a wall..
But there should be more NPCs added that have a larger walking area... that aren't involved in quests at all and are just background/ordinary/citizens.
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My opinion is that quest based NPCs should currently not move or just move around in a small area.. like a guard walking up and down a wall..
But there should be more NPCs added that have a larger walking area... that aren't involved in quests at all and are just background/ordinary/citizens.
+1
Same goes for trainers. Although I've always held the opinion that every skill should have 2-3 trainers for all levels below about 80. If there were multiple trainers per skill the problem of NPCs disappearing wouldn't be as big of a deal.
But still, storage and major quest NPCs shouldn't disappear.
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The problem there is almost every NPC (except some of the new ones in Kore and Amdeneir ... and even some of those) are involved in one quest or another. Add trainers to that and you pretty much cover them all.
I like the idea of having more redundancy with trainers (especially in different areas), and especially with beginning levels but that would involve a major overhaul in trainers...which will probably be worth doing at some point.
Oh how the projects pile up. ;D
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Interesting.
Do/will all npcs and ai entities move along pre-defined way-point based paths, or will there be space for dynamism there, like a nav-mesh?
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they use both
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This is fairly exciting, and explains why I couldn't, for the life of me, find my blasted vendor t'other day. This does add extra semblances of life.
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they use both
Good stuff.
Movin' on up.
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I don't mind guards roaming around patrolling, but vendors leaving at night is the stupidest thing ever. No other game does it for a reason, time consuming for players. No player is going to want to wait around for up to 2 hours (12 hours IG time, I believe?) waiting for their NPC to arrive. Instead they'd go get a life and stop playing Planeshift and buy Minecraft or WoW instead.
I could probably guarantee that WoW had this idea but dropped it because of it's time consumption to their players. You want the players to stay playing the game and not be bored, thus give them what they want when they want it.
With guards patrolling, making them stop walking when you want to train, talk or trade with them, would be a good task to place on your list of improvements, possibly at the top.
As it is Planeshift is frustrating enough with it's amount of lag, bugs, imbalance PPs, mobs and training, and broken quests.
This way, PlaneShift is developing from a playable and enjoyable game to a graphic demo you can just watch but not use...
I feel this way more and more with each update.
+1
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With guards patrolling, making them stop walking when you want to train, talk or trade with them, would be a good task to place on your list of improvements, possibly at the top.
I'm fairly certain NPCs already stop moving when you talk to them.
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buying wow and minecraft means getting a life... intresting point of view.
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I admit sometime I hated when I didn't find some npcs in their own place, especially when I log in always at the same hour and "luckily" it is IG night! ;D ;D ;D
Anyway, I think having npcs that have day/night cycles make sense and give more realism. At least you could add a feature that asking to some available npc about the npc we are searching for, he will answer where he has seen him approximately, or if he is at home and the IG hour that tipically he come back.
Just a little idea! :)