PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: valentineaaron on January 13, 2012, 06:29:25 am
-
Okay I've heard several complaints from other smiths in the game and didn't think anything of it until my skill has improved. Now it's becoming obvious to me as well that the entire equations and rules you use to judge what an items quality is need to change. It is ridiculous that there is so much wild swings to the quality of an item you make. You can have an axe blade start out as 200q, go down to 80q, then back up to 160, then when sharpened it goes up to 280, and after you combine them together and rivet it drops to 120q. I'm sorry but that is just ridiculous. I can understand quality having some chance involved with it but what needs to stop is the wide crazy swings. Something shouldn't vary depending on the steps so much, it doesn't make sense.
I think a better solution would be to have an average quality that your skills could reach. Maybe an item comes in on the lower end of that average or on the higher end. And if you keep working on it you can raise the quality. Even better you can add a risk in there of a smith working an item to much and having the metal begin losing quality or just turn to junk. That chance would keep someone from working on an item to much because the longer they work on it the higher the chances become of it going bad.
I don't mind even having the odds of getting higher quality go down if your skills are lower level so that you have to train more to get to the higher quality items. My issue is I find it just crazy that I can sit for hours making one item and have the quality bounce around so much. After hours of working on items I've had the average quality stay the same as when I just go through once to make the same items. That doesn't encourage work and effort not to mention being just plain silly. I can understand chance involved in the process but not to the degree it is.
-
Oh actually there is another big issue right now. Prices are really screwed up badly. I know people wanted to lower the prices for weapons so that new players could buy weapons easier but they forgot to lower the prices for the materials which has made an odd thing begin to happen now. You can now sell steel stock for a higher price then the weapons you make from them. Someone needs to change this right away since it makes no logical sense that materials are worth more then the items you make from them.
Also I have an issue with pricing in the game anyway. I am at a loss to figure out how npcs can buy stock of 300q for the same price they buy 300q weapons made from those materials. While players can charge more for higher quality items the issue comes in when you think about the work required to make the items. No one in their right mind is going to spend the time to make the weapons or other items when they can make just as much money selling 300q to npcs who will always buy it no matter how much is sold. This problem is one of the biggest reasons why the economy among players has never taken off. There is no point in bothering selling items to other players when you can make money faster selling stock to npcs. Just dropping stock prices in half would probably solve a good portion of the economic issues in the game and force players to think more about selling to each other for profit rather then mindlessly selling to npcs
-
yes the wild swings during the crafting process are nonsensical, but If you take the qualities of all your end result products, I think you'll find they hover close to your average, especially as you gain levels not only in that specific crafting skill, but in the blacksmithing skill as well.
-
Actually they don't. Right now my items range from 130 to 260 in what I've made out of 15 shields. There is no consistency there at all. To make matters worse before the final result they actually were close to each other in quality. An shield kit of 220q that goes down to 130 while one of 190q that then goes up to 200 isn't consistency in the least.
-
I haven't played my shieldcrafting character in a while, but I found as her BS skill improved, the range of her final product quality began to even out and become more and more consistent. There are other, much more skilled characters than mine, maybe those players can confirm or debunk my theory. Gil?
-
It is ridiculous that there is so much wild swings to the quality of an item you make.
I never had the patience to play a smith character, but some friends do. Quite a while ago, that motivated some reasoning about the mechanics, inspired from what friends told me and what was found on SVN at that time. The resulting idea was a similar one as yours, as it involved averages rather than the strong summands, scaling factors and random percentages observed. One problem is the design of reversible or cyclic process chains. You could prevent abuse by inserting a penalty factor somewhere in the chain, but that does not look very intuitive. A mechanism that averages out random fluctuations without introducing a drift in the expectation value of the quality would be much more elegant - and relatively simple. Also, the skills with respect to a given processes ranges can then act on the resulting average quality rather than the jumps and quirks at each step.
-
I think the real problem is that only the last step makes any difference. It would be nice if a q300 stock generally made a better blade than a q50 stock but it doesn't appear to.
Perhaps crafted item quality should be split into aesthetic quality and utility and different merchant. An ornamental item can have far more value on its artistic merits than a functional one and an item that is both functional and artistic can be even more valuable.
-
I think that even high skill in blacksmith doesn't prevent wild fluctuation in quality at present. Hangatyr once confirmed, that he didn't see consistent improvement with armor making for example (for helms), and the random factor was just too wild. Devs need to provide more clear input on how crafting rules work, since they are not very simple, and quality functions there aren't linear. Many factors there are confusing at the moment. For example effects of the master crafted hammer, irrelevance of some steps to the final quality and so on.
-
I agree Gilrond, part of the problem is they don't provide information about what equations and info they use to make up the smithing skill. The biggest issue I have is the wild fluctuations. If someone like Hangatyr who has over 150 in smithing can have wild swings of 300q to 80q in just one action then something is wrong in the system that needs to be fixed. I don't mind it being difficult to get good quality. The issue is the fact that it is so inconsistent right now because of the wild swings in quality no matter what your skill is.
-
need? there is a duty on it? we aren't paid so you cannot expect the same level of readiness of full time devs, it's opensource so read: http://planeshift.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/planeshift/trunk/src/server/workmanager.cpp?revision=7998&view=markup&pathrev=8001 @ applyskills.
and there are way higher level crafters than hangatyr who see the fluctuations less. if the crafter is above the training limit for an item (will start to happen already before being near it) the resulting quality will be way less affected by the randomization, because the item quality will go above 300 by multiplication of quality for each step, then the area the randomizer will work on will be partially over the ceil of 300 and won't do any effect. eventually it will be entirely ineffective by being entirely over the ceil.
hangatyr doesn't have the skill you think why don't you ask him what he does actually have, instead of doing assumption based on his not really true description, if compared to others.
-
Heheh, exactly what I referred to. Good that I am not to blame about pointing to spoilers...
Still, I think the design is not optimal, especially the part you mention where the logistic random variable needs to be pushed beyond its interval of definition. And the word "multiplication" might induce some more confusion. But now I should be quiet about this because I really lack the experience having played as a crafter ;)
-
So how much does the seperate skill blacksmith and the crafting skill you use do? What I mean is if you have 150 in blacksmithing and say 70 in sword does the 70 in sword hurt you and lower your chances significantly?
You are right about it being free and therefore you don't get paid for it. I apologize Weltall for sounding rude, it's just the current system is a little annoying because of such huge random fluctuations. I do feel better however knowing that the higher the skill the lower those will go :)
-
I'm not much of a code person. Does it say anywhere in the code where the skill level needs to be to make 300q items? And does that mean that more then likely if you had 200 in all crafting skills you would make 300q most of the time for all items you craft?
-
currently any skill level can theoretically reach 300q the point is another not having the skill to the upper bounduary means you get a default loss of quality which is static in addition there is a randomization after this is done. all processes double the current quality before applying the losses stated above
-
Wow that went right over my head. You mean that the quality your skill makes gets doubled when you are making an item, then you subtract the static number for your skill being lower then the maximum, and then add in a random amount that gets added in as well?
-
((quality of starting item * 2)-(bias derived from your lack of first skill+bias derived from your lack of second skill [if you get practical training you lack skill]))-(randomvalue). bias from lack of skill is >= 0 (0 is when you have got the best you can on that procedure) randomvalue can be negative and positive, if it's negative you get better results.
-
Ah I see, so at some point you'll probably not never have items go down in quality anymore when you work on them. I can see that already with spangens since they are so easy to make. I no longer ever have them drop in quality when I hammer them. So does metallurgy work the same way? If so then I don't think the type of metal determines if the items will go down in quality or not. It must just be that you would have to max out the skill.
-
((quality of starting item * 2)-(bias derived from your lack of first skill+bias derived from your lack of second skill [if you get practical training you lack skill]))-(randomvalue). bias from lack of skill is >= 0 (0 is when you have got the best you can on that procedure) randomvalue can be negative and positive, if it's negative you get better results.
Well, I can't be as quiet as I intended to be.
The thing I do remember and that is still found as a fallback function in the work manager works differently, Weltall. The initial quality is doubled if and only if it is below the base quality, i.e. 50. That case is not of much relevance. Otherwise, the base value (still 50) is added once or twice, depending on the number of skills involved (i.e. 100 if there is a secondary skill). What is subtracted then is a penalty that is proportional to the relative position of the skill with respect to the skill range and some prefactor. (e.g. half the penalty if the skill is in the middle.) As far as I see, skill training beyond the range won't ever make any difference there. Last point: The random part is not purely additive, but rather a randomized percentage factor. So quality changes in the end by +/- some percentage of its value, where the distribution of the percentage value is a sigmoidal curve. Higher quality gives a bigger amplitude of noise, but partly hidden by cutting off becond 300.
Oops, maybe what Weltall wrote is actually true, and the public fallback stuff I talk about is simply outdated :)
-
you are right about the +50 or it would be too fast to get to 300 i missed the line.
it's actually + base quality.
i didn't explain in depth how the randomization function works i just kept it abstracted.
this is sorta the distribution of most crafting http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/8762/schermatafigure11.png
-
I did not mean to criticize your comment, Weltall. It's just to help those players out who are interested to understand what the function does by looking at the SVN link, just as I once did.
Let me guess the labels in your plot: Change in quality as a function of initial quality and the cumulated probability to get this or a better result? Nah, that cannot be it, the spread is huge. But the shape fits.
-
it's only the random distribution part
-
Well time for me to join this discussion. First of all there might be some with higher skills than mine as I've seen them in the past, way back when Dweomer Detection worked. Funny as some of them had higher skills as it was possible to have at this given point of time; levels above 100. So as I don't licked or kissed the butt of a goddess, my skills are my work. Weltall point to one who outdo me, one who gained his skills like I did, the honest way.
Back to topic. It's nice to look at a beautiful formula, but it's different if one has to deal with it. q300 kits end up in q70 swords, what a joke. There is no way in RL that if I attach a handle to a blade that the blade looses its quality. If the rivet is loose, I replace it. If the screw is loose, I tighten it. If the leather around the handle is loose, I'll tighten it. BUT this has no effect on the blade.
Right now I am working on steel ingots and with my skill level the Q bounces up and down like mad, going from q85 to q300, which is a hell of a range. Dropping Q by 150 isn't uncommon to me. It's more the rule rather than the exception. Btw. I never saw it happen to go up by 150. You say randomization has just a little or no effect, well as I usually work of stacks so the static part of the formula doesn't change (quality of starting item and my skill level). So why, if randomization can be nearly 'neglected', the outcome of my work varies that much? Taken q220 as initial, the range is from q85 to q300.
-
But ... but Hangatyr, you didn't tell us your levels! Mine are Met:85, BS:34, SwM:22 rest are lower. I would expect rather poor results except for smelting which ought to give rather average results.
I have yet to make anything q300 except for stocks/ingots up to gold -- oh and possibly bronze spangens, I can't quite recall. The swords I make average around 150 highest being about 220. Oddly enough when making swords the kit always takes the quality of the sword handle.
I believe there may be legacy code somewhere that was put in place so that crafters could get to q300 back when the highest level of the skill available was 50. I do not see why anyone ought to be able to make perfect weapons with only 1/5 the possible level, it ought to be rare with even 1/2 unless these weapons are trivial.
With the superior sword parchment we have at least the semblance of a more complex weapon system but I do not see a significant improvement in the types made from it over the types made with similar amounts of material in the base system. Perhaps I just haven't paid enough attention to the differences as I have not made a detailed study of the topic.
-
Bilbous from what I gathered by the discussion so far the 300q range isn't the max of your stat such as 200, it's the point where you don't get training for the item you are making anymore. So for example with spangens it's around level 15 in armor making I think. When you are at level 15 the spangens will still bounce up and down in quality (which is very annoying when you are trying to make them 300q) but now that I am 30 then never go down at all anymore. I will make a spangen now and it will go up to 300q in a couple hammers, and never lose quality. I think that is how the rest of the items work as well for every part of the effort to make them including the combination.
If that is the case though then something is seriously messed up with metallurgy since before the last changes happened you would max out on a metal but then never get a better chance of making 300q from that metal. My skill is 126 now and I still have about the same odds of making bronze 300q stock as someone who just reached the point where they don't get training on it anymore. I think with smithing though once you reach the level where you don't get training points to make an item you'll start seeing the random jump in numbers less and less to the point where it will never go down at all anymore.
-
The other problem I see with crafting (other then metallurgy because it seems to be a mess right now) is that you don't really know when you'll stop getting training on an item you work on. So far the only one I see you stop getting training on are spangens which is understandable since they are so easy to make. But here's the thing with that, 1. you still get training for the parts for a spangen and you'd think the parts would be easier to make, 2. there are plenty of other items in the game that are just as easy to make, 3. if you get training for making simple items all the way up to maxing stats then or even making easy weapons with common alloys then there is really not much of a point in striving for a higher skill since you'll never overcome the randomness of the quality you get out of items. If you are never guaranteed 300q items no matter your skill it's kind of a waste of time to keep training after a certain point.
-
I haven't done any real crafting in a week or two but last time I did I was getting practice for pretty much everything I did except trivial things like quenching. I was getting practice for making steel and bronze ingots which had previously stopped giving practice. The weapon/armor skills were never high enough to stop giving practice for those actions that gave it ever. It has been quite some time since I made a spangen as it was always quicker to max out the bronze quality than the spangen and the profit was no different.
-
well then you should correct your description as it's not the truth.
second there are both from the "divinity" and by themselves, who are from 5 to 50 levels above you. I'm sure you see one of them daily.
As for the "not seeing the wild effect" well you are too low at levels to be in that area you need to be above the training limit of the things you are doing and this isn't your case. Plus as you see from the diagram most randomness will space from 50 to -50 but there might be cases of -150 +150 too, even more at high qualities. So the more the quality is high the more wild will be the loss or gain.
The schema above is for sword crafting, some other crafts have lower randomness (but not extremely different)
-
But Weltall if you get experience in making an item all the way up until you max your skill at 200 then the random issue will always be as big of an issue since you'll never increase to the point where you can lessen it's impact.
-
basic items don't get there, special items obviously cannot be normal so they must be more difficult to make.
-
Good to know Weltall, thanks :) so the basic items made from bronze and steel will max out at some point lower the 200 in the skill. I can live with that. So to the anvil!
-
Okay so now that we have gone over the quality issues how about the prices? I'm sorry but it's just silly that ore prices are the same as the weapons you make from the ore. A 300q sword will be equal to the 300q metal you make it from? really? that is just absurd on it's face. And to make matters worse now prices for longswords and shortswords are lower then the prices you can get for the materials they are made from. No wonder you have no economy in the game and everyone works on stock. There is no point to do anything else.
-
Here's a thought. How about dropping the price for the metals so you force players to either learn more to earn huge amounts of tria, say half the price they are now and keep weapon prices the same. That would fix a good number of game issues with the economy right now. And p.s. all those complaining about it being too hard to make any tria as a new player are full of it. It's not difficult to get to 30 in metallurgy and once you reach that point you can make enough bronze stock to make millions in a week at the most. Even if you mine all the ore yourself.