PlaneShift
Development => PlaneShift Mods => Topic started by: Aiwendil on January 22, 2012, 09:42:42 pm
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As weltall committed the patches for the new help system today I thought I made my working draft of an improved in-game help available too. This is still work in progress but as far as I see it includes already all the information of the original PS help and adds a lot more stuff (With one exception, it doesn't include any GM/dev commands at the moment. As this is meant for players I also don't intend to include those myself but if a dev/GM feels like adding them please do so).
Mostly I want to know if there is a general interest in something like this. So a few replies would be appreciated.
For now this will only work with self-compiled clients (need at least PS SVN revision 8024). But the next official client of PS should included all help system improvements needed to use this help.xml replacement.
Then I needed a skin for the images used in the help file. I chose BoNeeSkin (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=36618.0) for this...as it's CC licensed, pretty complete and easy to adjust. In the end this should work well with all skins so if anyone has interest in making it work with another skin feel free to contact me and ask how. But I wanted to express my gratitude to Bonifarzia and Neeno for their skin.
Okay...but what the hell is this even about. Mhh...lets see:
(http://wstaw.org/m/2012/01/22/helpExample2.png)
(http://wstaw.org/m/2012/01/22/helpExample3.png)
(http://wstaw.org/m/2012/01/22/helpExample4.png)
(http://wstaw.org/m/2012/01/22/helpExample5.png)
And as I said...this is still a very early draft and far from being complete. For now not even the part describing all the windows in PS is complete (and I have to admit I'm a bit afraid of the options-window. That will be really a lot to type ;) ). All help is very welcomed if someone is up for it.
First off, I'm not a English native speaker...so there will be endless typos, bad phrasings and grammar errors. Be a spelling-nazi this one time...and poke me about my errors.
Also I would love to have a lot of general game informations stuff in the help like race descriptions or monster descriptions. But here the problems start already...I suck at writing. Everything on the PS website and the PS wiki is ABC licensed and can't be reused. So if someone feels like writing a summery about Klyros, dwarves, Clackers or whatever and doesn't copy and paste from the PS websites please send them to me so that I can included those texts in the help file.
Next problem...the spoiler part. I don't have the slightest clue who trains what and where I can mine. I would like to included all such information as well...even if I never cared about them. So if anyone could give me access to a recent spoiler page and the permission to reuse that stuff I would be grateful. (Of course even more if someone wants to include such information in the help.xml him/herself)
Also the help file is CC licensed (Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/) so please reuse this if you want for your own additions. Feel free to create a section with the rules of your guild and hand it out to all your guild members.
So...if you find this interesting, work with a recent trunk client and want to try it out get thethe help.xml (http://min.us/mp3gA8OaT#2o). Install the skin as usual (just copy it in art/skins and select it in pslaunch). The help.xml must be copied to data/help.xml (replacing the old help.xml there). If you use a translation of PS you must replace help.xml in the directory of the translation you use (for example: lang/deutsch/data/help.xml)
Changes to BoNeeSkin-v2.7
- helpwindow.xml: Changed to pawsDocumentView to work with SVN trunk and enable images in the help window
- dialog.xml: Copied the latest changes from trunk to make the skin work with trunk
- chardescwindow.xml: Enabled the spellchecker for char descriptions
- questnotebook.xml: Enabled the spellchecker for quest notes
- shortcutwindow.xml: Enabled the spellchecker for the command text box (Not sure if this is really helpful as most commands aren't exactly words...but some people tend to write RP-shortcuts here so having the ability to spellcheck might be nice here too)
- guildwindow.xml: Enabled the spellchecker for the MOTD
- chat.xml: Disabled "always on top"...my chat window covers a quarter of the screen...I want to be able to still change options with it visible.
- added petition.xml and enabled the spellchecker for the text
- added a few images for the help file to the skin archive and to imagelist.xml
- added a changelog to README.txt
Last but not least I have a question. Does anyone know what license the posts in this forum are...especially http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.0
Would be nice to include the rules in the helpfile...but could be a bit hard to ask Dajoji for permission. And if they are seen as PS property and ABC licensed it won't work out.
Edit:
- Added links to images hosted on an alternative provider
Edit2:
- And removed the alternative images again ;)
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That looks really good to me. congratulations.
I assume that people posting here retain copyright to anything posted, granting only license to display as required. I've certainly never seen anything on the forums trying to claim rights to everything. I'd never be back if that was the case.
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Yeah..of course not bilbous...didn't expect everything in this forum to become ABC as well. But this particualr post was made by Dajoji while he was member of the PS team and kind of serves an offical purpose. That's what makes me a bit...uneasy to just copy it.
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Oh I did not see any differentiation in your post as to which you had written and which you might have borrowed. It would well to attribute such things as the text in the pictures that were written by others (if that is a correct assumption.) In that case I believe it would all be covered as fair use.
Of course I am just talking though my hat having no legal expertise. :)
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Aww..so far no differentiation is necessary as all the text is pure, original, poor quality Aiwendil writing. But it has already some thanks to people helping me and of course I will make it clear if someone else wrote a text for the help. (But you reminded me that I forgot to include a thanks for Neeno and Bonifarzia in the help file as well...will add that now)
Guess for now I just try to send Dajoji a PM and see if he replies...and then poke poor Illysia with her superior writing skills to write me an essay about the difficulties of being an Enkidukai and why there are no good fur-shampoos available.
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Schaeminaire soap won't do? :innocent:
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Looks very good!
Any piece that goes in game should go under AB License, that allows you to reuse any existing material, including the current help file. Makes no sense to rewrite it completely, but it should be expanded with the images and more up to date information.
About license in the forums, any rule/document/setting material posted by PlaneShift members is under AB license, all other posts are owned by the posters.
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Thanks.
For the licensing: In this case it's more important for me to allow players/guilds/groups to adjust my work to their needs and redistribute it again than having it included in the official client...that's why CC.
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Sounds easier to me to just use AB from the start, if you guys are working for improving the in game help, consider it approved.
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Just to be clear, no spoilers will be allowed, so the map you have posted up there should not be included (I've removed it now).
The main part to improve is surely a better explanation of the game mechanics, how to start crafting, how to build a characters, how to RP. There is quite a bit that can be added and improved in the help. Let us know which parts you want to work on.
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Okay, sorry, no more screenshot of the spoiler section then.
Going to finish the descriptions of all in-game windows for now. A RP guide is already included (though maybe needs a some rework as I wrote this specifically for the outlaws some years ago). Also the sections for the config files of PS is mostly done already. The command section should have almost all available commands but still needs some formatting work (And a recheck with the sourcecode so that I really didn't forget any command)
When finished with the windows I thought about a combat and a magic section next. Also I got the permission to use some content for the spoiler section so that will get some work soon too.
And of course I will included stuff other people send me.
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Also I got the permission to use some content for the spoiler section so that will get some work soon too.
Which parts and who gave you the permission?
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???
Just some PS related website that collects infos about PS and how to play. I would never dare to use material without the approval of the authors so I asked them and got the permission to use their stuff.
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Ok, but consider that if you want to make your help changes part of the game, we then need a review with ps devs.
Anyway I suggest you to proceed to collect the information as you are already doing, and then we can have a review when you are at a good point of completion. My suggestion is just to avoid collecting a lot of spoiler info, because that will then be cut off in the in game help.
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First of all, this looks very promising, Aiwendil. I hope all of the effort you have put into this will be of good use for the community. I am glad I have had a glance at your previews before they turned into the red gibberish with polish "picture censored" tags (google translate), just as they did on flyspray (task5450).
Second, it is a pity that this has not caught my attention any earlier, as I was to lazy to hop on IRC for quite a long time. I think it is much the same with Neeno, who is the only person who deserves your thanks for basing some of your work on the BoNeeSkin, as he has done all the recent enhancements. We actually think that you could fork your modifications into a separate skin project, but your approach is also fine. Yet, maybe a slight name change that emphasizes the new help features is better than following our (random) versioning, just to avoid confusion.
Considering spoilers... well, that is something quite incompatible with official content, but you don't need anybody to tell you about that - you know the policies. When I first saw your maps preview, I even thought you made up a minimap in the spirit of the inventory doll. Anyways, I think such things are much less needed than the polish up of the help system you already achieved. And your work deserves more than just yet another discussion about spoilers.
Good luck with your project!
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Thanks Bonifarzia.
I had a short chat with Neeno yesterday in IRC and will rename my modified skin to "BoNeeSkinMod" or something like this with the next release. Not a problem at all for me and I see Neeno's point that using the same name and just messing with the version numbers can easily lead to confusion. I just would like to stay with a name that at least resembles the old name as in fact I hardly modified anything about the skin and just reused your great work. All I needed a skin for is to have a place where I can add the images for the in-game help. (But of course it would be an honor if some of my changes will be ported back to your original skin...some of them will be needed anyway for the next release. So I don't see this like forking and more like providing a playground for me. ;))
About the pictures...yeah, bad luck, will upload them somewhere else now as well. The ACTA-protest should be over tomorrow again so looks like it was just a bad timing for uploading pictures there. But as I personally have to agree with the reservations against ACTA I can't blame them for protesting.
Yeah...the spoiler section...was clear that this will cause some...commotion. ;)
I discussed this with several players and of course I can understand if someone doesn't want to use any spoilers at all. But at the same time it appears there are many players who wouldn't mind to have a list of trainers available in game or maps with the positions of NPCs or mining places. So there was right from the start the plan to make one version with spoilers and a second one without them. But as long as this is still heavily worked on I prefer to work on the "full" version. Removing the spoiler-section at the end for a second version is easier than working on two versions already now.
Oh..and no, I wasn't as crazy to try to get a mini-map patch included in the PS sourcecode. ;) So for now static image maps in the help have to do.
For the future I also have to check out if it's possible to provide the help.xml as part of the skin. That would be my preferred solution as the updater doesn't touch skins. For sure it could be provided as a "translation" but then I limit people again to "English". For testing purposes I think just overwriting the original file is fine for now...especially as a "pslaunch --repair" will restore the original file again but in the future I hope I can find a better solution for that.
If there are any other concerns regrading the use of your skin...or just for suggestions feel always free to contact me (This is true for everyone not just Bonifarzia of course. Despite my reputation I don't bite...normally). Can usually find me as "AiwendilH" in #psde on freenode (at least if they don't kick me for constantly using English ;)) but contacting me here in the forums is fine too of course (As long as I don't get banned again ;))
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:innocent: We really try hard to be tolerant about the amount of english language in a german channel ... but failing is just human. :whistling:
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Your own fault Ligh...making #psde the friendliest PlaneShift related chat channel is bound to lure some non-Germans there. And come on...soon you will have Vayl at the point she starts complaining about me using English too. Also having some English natives in mumble isn't that bad...the English of all of us could use some...constructive criticism at times. ;)
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How many more smilies do I have to add to make a joke obvious? :P
Of course, the more diverse people you meet, the more diverse you can develop yourself. I wonder where the visitor with the largest distance will come from to our next meeting.
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Just a small update...still heavily worked on.
And the necessary help.xml:
http://min.us/mp3gA8OaT#4o
Oh..and one more screenshot:
(http://wstaw.org/m/2012/01/31/PS-help.png)
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So..now that 0.5.9 is out this could be actually used by others. So an update from me:
(http://wstaw.org/m/2012/04/13/ps-help.png)
(http://wstaw.org/m/2012/04/13/ps-help1.png)
There is still a lot that could be added of course. Also there are for sure plenty of typos in it still. But compared to the standard help I think it's still an improvement.
What I have so far:
Introduction
General Information
Links
Official Sites
Community Sites
Guild Sites
Files
Configuration Files
options.cfg
planeshift.cfg
...plenty of other files...
options/tooltips.xml
User files
Books
Character descriptions
Chat logs
Screenshots
Sketches
Roleplay Guide
Play a Role
Don't play alone
Understand the difference between IC and OOC
Godmodding
RP-fights
Common sense
The GM team
Playing the game
User Interface
Chat Window
Tab Completion
Spellchecker
Chat tabs
Main
Chat
NPC
Whisper
Guild
Group
Alliance
Auction
System
Help
Info window
Stats and skills window
Inventory window
Quests window
Spell Book
Guild Window
Members
Permissions
Alliance
Buddy List
Group window
Petitions Window
Shortcuts
Creating new shortcuts
Option Window
Controls/Keys
Controls/Mouse
Controls/Entities
Graphics/Camera
Graphics/Details
Graphics/Labels
Graphics/Shadows
Sound/General
Confirmation/PvP
Confirmation/Marriage
Interface/Pop-ups
Interface/Tooltips
Interface/Chat
Interface/Chat - Logs
Interface/Chat - Filter
Interface/Chat - Tabs
Interface/Chat - Bubbles
Interface/Chat - TabCompletion
Interface/Spellchecker
Interface/Autoexec
Help Window
Chat commands
Alliance commands
...plenty of commands...
Chat related commands
...plenty of commands...
Combat commands
...plenty of commands...
Crafting commands
...plenty of commands...
Group commands
...plenty of commands...
Guild commands
...plenty of commands...
Help Channel commands
...plenty of commands...
Interaction commands
...plenty of commands...
Item commands
...plenty of commands...
Miscellaneaous commands
...plenty of commands...
Pet commands
...plenty of commands...
Spoiler
Maps
Amdeneir
Burial Well
Central Hydlaa
Death Realm
Laanx Dungeon
Velnishi Cave
Trainer
Stats
...plenty of stats...
Combat
...plenty of skills...
Magic
...plenty of skills...
Jobs
...plenty of skills...
Various
...not that many skills...
Not everything of the above list is complete yet. That maps are only basic skeleton images so far for example. Also a lot of the texts need some changes.
If you are still interested you can download everything here:
http://minus.com/mp3gA8OaT/2f
This is the help.xml file. It needs to replace the old help.xml file in data/ of your planeshift installation directory. In case you use a translation of Planeshift the file must go to lang/<translation>/data and replace the help.xml there.
And last but not least the changed I made to the BoNeeMod skin:
* helpwindow.xml: Changed to pawsDocumentView to work with SVN trunk and enable images in the help window
* dialog.xml: Copied the latest changes from trunk to make the skin work with trunk
* chardescwindow.xml: Enabled the spellchecker for char descriptions
* questnotebook.xml: Enabled the spellchecker for quest notes
* shortcutwindow.xml: Enabled the spellchecker for the command text box (Not sure if this is really helpful as most commands aren't exactly words...but some people tend to write RP-shortcuts here so having the ability to spellcheck might be nice here too)
* guildwindow.xml: Enabled the spellchecker for the MOTD
* chat.xml: Disabled "always on top"...my chat window covers a quarter of the screen...I want to be able to still change options with it visible.
* added petition.xml and enabled the spellchecker for the text
* removed dialog.xml to work with PS version 0.5.9
So, try it out...and if you feel like it post improvement suggestions (Or if you are very bold write me a nice short guide about combat and crafting in PS I can include. I have no clue of any of those topics). Also the spoiler lists I was allowed to use are a bit dated...if someone could provide me with more recent trainer lists I would appreciate that.
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A pity this help file makes the client crash:
ERROR: Invalid 'data/help.xml': Not a binary CS document
Error (in: line 1:1)
Obviously a nonsensical error message. The original help file is no binary file either, but a plain text XML.
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Ah, the reason was: It contains an UTF-8 "smilie" character. This is probably unsupported by the PS XML parser.
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Nah..partly my fault..and partly PS's fault. Seems the binary client is not able to load unicode files. So I changed it to ansi. Updated help.xml now. The links above are still valid.
One addition: The images are only displayed if the help window is wide enough to display the image. There isn't much I can do about this. In later version I will just prevent the help window through to skin to become too small but for now it might be necessary to make the window larger to actually see some images.
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A pity this help file makes the client crash:
ERROR: Invalid 'data/help.xml': Not a binary CS document
Error (in: line 1:1)
Obviously a nonsensical error message. The original help file is no binary file either, but a plain text XML.
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Ah, the reason was: It contains an UTF-8 "smilie" character. This is probably unsupported by the PS XML parser.
crystal space. xml parsers have nothing to do with ps.
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It has in the sense of that it obviously depends on how you compile CS. I have no problem at all here to load unicode xml files...but the binary client has.
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figure out the difference then as cs is built with libraries shipped with the distribution.
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Aiwendil, I think many parts of your help.xml are really good.
I would like to add some of it to the standard game help. Is that ok to have that under Atomic Blue license and packaged with the game?
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*sigh*
Now it gets complicated.
I never had much of a problem to release patches for PS under the GPL and even assigning the copyright to Atomic blue for the code. No matter what happens in the future, even in the unlikely case Atomic blue decides to change the license of the code, the current version will always be available under GPL so others will have access to that code and can modify it. The ability to have access to work I have done and to be able to modify it for ones own needs is something that is very important for me. And this is no question of political correctness for me. Wouldn't really matter if the code was licensed BSD either. It's just that if I write some code in my spare time I want it to be "helpful" for others (Not only by function but also as base or example. Not saying that any of my code is even good enough to be reused...just want to give the possibility)
But it's a completely different game to release something under AB-Content license. Especially for the help.xml file some questions come up there.
First, it's very unclear for me what license applied to the old help.xml file. It's available through to public SVN repository of PlaneShift (http://planeshift.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/planeshift/trunk/data/help.xml). And even more, without that file the GPL code won't start. So for my understanding the official help.xml file is GPL licensed. (As are the data/gui/*xml files. I already submitted several patches for some of those always assuming they are GPL licensed). If this is the case lets stop here...I have no problem at all to relicense this work to GPL and by this make it easily available for inclusion in PS.
Now lets assume I misunderstand this and the help.xml file is indeed ABC licensed. First...please provide another, very simple help.xml file then to make it at least possible to run the GPL code. But lets talk about what it would mean to relicense this all under ABC.
First, and a real show-stopper for me, from my understanding it means nobody will be able anymore to take my help.xml, edit it and then make it available for example for his/her guildmates.
10. Limited License of Works: You may not copy, modify, publish, transmit, sell, participate in the transfer or sale or reproduce, create Derivative Works from, distribute, perform, display or in any way exploit any of the Works submitted to Atomic Blue, except as follows:
...
I understand the reasons for PS choosing this way (even if I don't agree, but that's beside the point here). But I don't think it really makes sense for the help.xml. It's very doubtable that any other game would copy a help text specifically written for PS. But I see a lot of advantages allowing players to modify this text to their own needs and redistributing it to others.
Next Problem I see for me:
9. Ownership; Derivative Works: You understand and agree that, between you and Atomic Blue, Atomic Blue owns any and all works of authorship that contain a Work owned by Atomic Blue (whether owned from creation or by assignment), including Derivative Works.
If I get this right everything I write with this help.xml as base would automatically also become AB-Content. In the end this means for me that if I allow parts of it to become ABC I can't distribute an own, enhanced versions of it myself anymore as it's not allowed by the ABC license.
And now a problem I see in general:
6. Confidentiality: The Atomic Blue Property may be proprietary to Atomic Blue, a Member or a third party. By accepting any code or content relating to the PlaneShift project or Software or other active project of Atomic Blue from Atomic Blue or a Member, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU ARE APPROVED FOR MEMBERSHIP IN ATOMIC BLUE, you acknowledge and agree that (i) as between you and Atomic Blue, Atomic Blue is the owner of all such Atomic Blue Property (regardless of whether subject to an open source license), and (ii) you will not disclose any information related to any of such Atomic Blue Property other than to other Members. The only exceptions to your obligations not to disclose code or content are that you have the right to disclose code or content that you can demonstrate was (a) distributed by Atomic Blue under an open source license agreement, (b) released with permission (in written or electronic form) from a department leader or director, or (c) is required to be disclosed by a governmental authority, but you must first notify Atomic Blue of such requirement and
take reasonable legal steps to prevent code or content not subject to such requirement from disclosure. Any attempt to subvert the authorization mechanisms for disclosure of such information may constitute a crime or violation of law, including the theft or conversion of intellectual property of Atomic Blue, a Member or a third party. Without limiting the foregoing, you acknowledge that Atomic Blue, ATOMIC BLUE and PlaneShift are trade names or trademarks of Atomic Blue.
Ahm...parts of this help.xml file are old texts i have written years ago that were made public a long time ago on several webpages. And Even in this thread I "disclose" already the work. So I kind of would break this "rule" already right from the start
So, maybe i misunderstood most of these terms and and clear explanation will invalidate all my reservations. I have no problem in general to make this work available for PS and/or atomic blue but not at all costs (meaning...it must stay modifiable for non-Atomic Blue members as well). So some response on these points would be appreciated. And of course the easiest way would be to just include it as it as...CC licensed. Nothing is stopping you from just doing this.
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The current licensing status of help.xml is not clearly stated in the file, considering it includes copyrighted material, like race names, setting pieces, etc... I consider it under AB license.
AB License is made to protect PlaneShift and ensure it's assets are used in the context of PS only. The people working with us on the game (being them external contributors or developers) should not feel this license as a limitation of their work for PS, as we consider common sense is applied and so everything which is made to improve the game is generally well accepted and encouraged even if it's against the license. Examples are the modification skins, which would not be possible in theory, but are accepted as they make the game nicer.
To summarize we prefer to have the assets under AB license and then relax the rule whenever we see someone is working in favor of the game, instead of keeping everything open and have no way to control our assets usage, distribution or modifications.
Hundreds of contributors have happily worked within these boundaries, knowing their assets were protected to stay and evolve inside PS. So you should not fear about distributing the material to your guilds members, or to be allowed to create other derivative copies, as that will be allowed and even encouraged if it's made to enhance the game. In any case if you have any doubts you can always ask for an approval upfront or discuss the matter. We have always been very open to allow changes/modification/usage if the request was reasonable (example include PS uses in thesis, for scientific research, ...)
As already mentioned in this thread some time ago, the best is to consider yourself a PS contributor, and release your additions under AB license, so we collectively (yourself included) can decide what to do with the assets and their evolution.
Let me know if you have any further questions.
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Okay, so no GPL for help.xml :/
I fear I wasn't very clear what really bothers me about putting this work under ABC. I don't really care much about myself there. I'm not in any "guild", I don't even play this game anymore. But that's the point. I started working on this after I provided the patches to make the work of the GSoC student available for the in-game help. It's partly to see if the code works and partly to see what is possible with it...and to some extend because it could be useful for some players. By now I got my answers to the first two questions so the only reason to go on with this would be because it might be useful for other players. But part of the "usefulness" is in my view the ability that everyone can contribute, modify and redistribute this file. I won't be working forever on this but it's already clear right now that some parts of this help will become outdated in the future. It's said for some time already that the in-game options window needs a major overhaul. This will probably invalidate a lot of the infos I give about it. Also it's to be expected that new chat commands will be added all the time. So I want that everyone could just take this file without asking for anyone's permission, modify it and then redistribute it without any restrictions (Guild was only an example, best would be of course to all players). And for me it's not really enough to say it would be "tolerated" as the license explicitly forbids it. Someone starting to play this game in a year from now will never learn about this "permission". Of course in an ideal world there would be enough man-power in the PS team to maintain the help file and keep it updated all the time. But as we all know this isn't an ideal world and even then players know often better what really needs to be explained and how.
And I don't really want to get into a discussion about the advantages or disadvantages for PS choosing this kind of licensing. This is discussed every few years again and by now I probably heard all possible arguments from all sides. Of course I have my own opinion about this, but that doesn't really matter at the moment. PS chose this licensing so the only question for me right now is if it is possible to get my wishes fulfilled "despite" the way PS handles it. I'm afraid at the moment I don't see how this could be possible.
So, am I Stubborn? Yes, of course. I rather have a week of abstinence than admitting my GF is "right". I think that's pretty stubborn for a man. ;) But it's not that easy in this case. I'm perfectly fine with just distributing this help as an external package. The only reason why I put some thoughts in the question if relicensing under ABC is a possibility for me is because I think it could be helpful for some new players to have an extensive in-game help right from the start without having to install any add-ons. That is were my stubbornness kicks in. I'm afraid it's more important for me to keep this open for everyone than making it easily available for everyone. And stubbornness is a two edged sword in this case as nothing is preventing the inclusion of this file in PS even right now.
Now lets get constructive...and see if I could think of possible solutions:
Okay, I don't have much of a clue how double-licensing works...but would it be a possibility to have this files distributed under ABC and CC (or GPL)? That way everyone could just redistribute it under the license he/she prefers.
Still my preferred solution would be to just make the help-file GPL. It would get around this whole discussion and also not stir up any other unnecessary discussions about the licensing of "real" artwork or content. Also the reasons for PlaneShift to use ABC don't really apply to this file as I just can see no reason why anyone would want to reuse this in another project (beside of course as example/base for an own help). By this everyone could work and improve it without having to accept the ABC license.
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I think you are still reading the license wrongly, but I have explained the details above pretty clearly I think.
To go to the point, you can surely dual license it, so release one file under AB license and one under CC (with same content). We will get the AB one and add it to the game, you can keep the CC one and do what you want with it. So can we proceed?
One side point of this is that we should then see if you could really license it under CC as it may contain PS property data to start with.
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I'm slowly loosing my patience here. I'm not the one who wants to include this in the official data.
So, I should release it under ABC and CC and then get told a week later that atomic blue thinks that the CC version is void? So basically PS gets it's ABC stuff and I should just keep quit about how I want my work to be used?
Could be pretty interesting anyway to hear the reasons why I can't license my work as CC. The help.xml files is completely written from scratch by me. It isn't based on any previous work from PS. Yes, it might contain words like "Ynnwn" or "Enkidukai" but I seriously hope that nobody believes using words invented by PS will lead to the whole text becoming property of PS. Then it has some indirect xml references to PS art-work. Of course I'm not claiming copy-right on any of that artwork. But the references used in help.xml files are actually image-names that are defined through imagelist.xml. Every skin could have different icons/images there (In fact some of the standard PS icons are replaced by the BoNeeSkin I use as base...with CC content). I really don't think using references in a text will enforce the license of the "linked" content on that text. Otherwise websites would have a little problem...
Now to the last thing...the screeshots I took and included. This one is really a bit unclear as it seems to depends on the content of the screenshot, some nebulous level of creativity displayed there and if the the displayed content was protected at all to start with if a screenshot can be seen as derived work. But even if, what I really doubt in this case, the screenshots must be put under ABC this for sure is not true for the help.xml (and just as a side note..most of the screenshots are actually shots of the BoNeeSkin and not the PS own skin. And as said before...the artwork of that skin is CC). So sorry, I really think I am allowed to put work I created under the license I want it to be.
For the dual licensing. First I will only agree to this if that stupid claim that CC would be invalid for this work will be dropped. But it also raises another question for me. Does that mean than any future additions to the help.xml could be used in the CC version as well? As I said...I don't have much of an clue about multi-licensing. Never considered it for any of my projects before. It's no real option for me if the practical outcome is that only the ABC version is worth maintaining afterwards. Also not really an option if it means that all work done to the CC version can be easily included in the ABC version but not the other way around.
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Man, you are making it too complex. I think I have explained the philosophy behind the license, and the possibilities we have. It is as simple as "the license is made to protect the work created for PlaneShift, for the benefit of its players". It seemed to me you were willing to help the project, and so including parts of your help in the game seemed a good idea, that's why I proposed it. Also I thought it could be rewarding for you to have it in game officially, as many people would automatically benefit from it. It's a good piece of work and it's a pity to have it wasted. If you want more clarifications contact me on IRC, which is faster than here.
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Updated and new version uploaded.
Main changes:
- Added a (very short) introduction to Crafting
- Did a lot of work on the maps. Included new ones and made the old ones actually useful.
- Removed the always-on-top for the Info-window...it annoyed the hell out of me.
Help.xml: http://minus.com/mp3gA8OaT/2f (Goes to data/help.xml an replaces the original file)
(I hope I don't run into a unicode problem with this one again...otherwise just tell me I messed up again and I will upload another version)
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Maps are considered spoiler and so are not allowed.
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I understand the no spoiler rule... but over the years and as PS gets older and older I just find it more amusing than anything.
A bit like if a 'Star Wars' forum kept banning spoilers on who luke's father was... either people know already.. or the ones who don't know.. don't care or have no interest.
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Okay, I give up.
It's no news that the current development version of this contained spoilers. Already the first version I made public contained some "maps". But as I said pretty early in this thread I would have made a spoiler free version available as soon as the basic structure is finished. Hate to quote myself...
Yeah...the spoiler section...was clear that this will cause some...commotion. ;)
I discussed this with several players and of course I can understand if someone doesn't want to use any spoilers at all. But at the same time it appears there are many players who wouldn't mind to have a list of trainers available in game or maps with the positions of NPCs or mining places. So there was right from the start the plan to make one version with spoilers and a second one without them. But as long as this is still heavily worked on I prefer to work on the "full" version. Removing the spoiler-section at the end for a second version is easier than working on two versions already now.
Seems this was no problem until a few days ago...I wonder why.
So now the links to the skin are removed. Great, it's for sure fun to have a help.xml which main advantage should be the included images without the images. And of course I can imagine that someone accidentally downloads two files, puts them in the right directory within the PlaneShift installation, chooses the correct skin in pslaunch and then...OH No...my eyes, Spoilers!!!! Seriously, I never made a secret out of this being still a early development version and that it contains spoilers for now.
Just wait until Talad find out that the help.xml which is still linked contains a trainer list in the text in it's current form....then that one will get removed too. So sorry, I'm fed up with this PS crap all the time. PM (or ask in IRC) me if you want links to the current version..but sorry, like this I won't put any more effort in this. Looks like it's either Talad's way or no way at all. I wonder who is the loser of this policy.
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I removed the files who are breaking the policy. If you post a version without the spoilers it's surely ok.
About in game usage, considering the current file is released as "CC BY-NC-SA" we cannot use it or make modifications to it for inclusion in the game with other pieces which are not following the same license (even if the other pieces where GPL). So we will write our own enhanced help file, unless you release a version which is CC-BY or CC-BY-NC.
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Upon request the last release of my help.xml is already GPL licensed...so, as long as you are capable of following that license do whatever you want with it...I have no interest in continuing the work on it anymore..and even less if it gets in PS or not. Every single time I try to do something helpful for other players the PS team (yeah, generalization...I know not all of the team) manages to act stupid. Next I probably will get told that the gui data files I created that are already in the official client are under some restrictive license I never agreed on too. It's all just not worth the hassle...
And as said..better remove the remaining links too as the help.xml file contains horrible spoiler too.
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Aiwendil, I'm sorry to see you over-reacting. The no-public-spoilers is a policy we have in place since ever, it's not something we did for you or we are going to change for you. I think your work is very valid and very useful also without the spoiler piece. All the command description and window details can be a good addition to the game. I mentioned this multiple time, praising your work.
If it's released under GPL it's easier, so we don't have to add another license to our codebase. I mentioned CC BY-NC-SA because that's what your original post says in this thread.
I will merge the current changes I did to our help file and part of yours, and add it to the client. I will add your name in the credits of the help as well. My suggestion is to then take that file and update it as per your guild needs. If you want to post it directly on this forum, please remove the spoilers first.
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Yeah, I changed the license for the last version as I said here some time ago GPL would be no problem for me and some people found it more appropriate for this work (And I have to agree with them).
And I'm well aware of the No-Spoiler stupidity around here...but the first post of this thread was made three months ago and the version there already contained the spoilers. It's not that I post any spoilers directly here in this forum...to see them people have to put a lot of effort in it...far more than joining a guild (Or visiting some other public webpages).
For merging...feel free to use whatever you find appropriate for an in-game version. That's what the license is for...as long as the helpfile remains GPL all modifications are fine. And I don't care about being mentioned in any credits...not the first work of me that made it in the public client. If you want to mention someone in the credits mention LigH and Minks for helping to test this, Bonifarzia and Neeno for their skin and weltall and Rlydontknow for answering technical questions. Also the people in #psde were very helpful with answering questions. I mentioned all those in the file but I guess the "Thanks" page won't make it in the client. But I will stop working on this. I won't go through all the effort to maintain two different versions just to satisfy some stupid No-spoiler policy and be able to get feedback here in the forums for a game I don't even play.
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Part of the help has been integrated in game, it will be available at the next update. Thanks for your contributions.