PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Aramara Meibi on January 26, 2012, 07:44:53 pm
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Caution: The ideas contained herein are dangerous to the status quo and familiarity of the game. Please read at your own RISK.
I write this with much trepidation; it started as I approached my personal one year anniversary of playing Planeshift, and I wanted to take a look back, do some introspection, review the progress of the game, and discuss the current state of things. I've voiced my opinion about many issues, the topics of many various threads and I know that I am in the minority opinion on many of these things. Still, this being a tiny fragment of the internet, I feel empowered to make my voice heard, regardless of the inevitable backlash which will follow. All I ask is, please be civil, do not flame. The ideas I'm about to propose are indeed heretical, noncomformist, and would require an absolute clearing of the slate on much of the development of the game in favor of a system that works. I understand that this will be perceived by many as a threat. I do not intend to threaten your feeling of security. In fact, I intend to liberate you from it.
Many of the issues being debated throughout this forum I feel can be boiled down to one clear, underlying problem. That is the ever present disparity and expanding gulf between the mechanical side of the game and the intended purpose of the game, which was once stated as Role Play. In essence, the mechanics do nothing to promote, advocate, or aid in fostering role play, and in many cases actually impede upon it.
Read through any one of the many stories posted under the Roleplaying (Communitive Storywriting) heading. Go ahead, I'm patient, I can wait... finished? Good. You see, that is what I and I have to believe at least two other players expect from our gameplay. Do those stories derive from the mechanics? The simple answer is 'No', those stories in fact ignore mechanics in favor of narrative. That is, according to the stated purpose of this game, an absolute crime and a crying shame. I say, give me a mechanical system from which such narratives can emerge from naturally.
One way to combat this issue is to implement the element of risk. Risk is nowhere apparent within the context of this game. There is, in fact, no way for a character to 'lose' anything, that is unless the player is willing to let it happen. You want to avoid godmodding? Implement risk into the system. Let me touch on some fundamental points in the game where risk should be a crucial element, but is glaringly missing.
Combat: For starters, combat should be a RARE occurrence, and should be DANGEROUS to the combatants. Encounters with mobs should be an event, in which the player feels the strain and stress of their character, who is fighting for their very lives against brutal, wild creatures. To begin, lets do away with the static spawn points and docile herds of mobs who just stand there waiting to be slaughtered. An elegant solution would be to spawn mobs at a map's edge, as individuals or in small groups, and have them migrate across the map to a different edge via a randomly generated but reasonable path. Timid and docile creatures would stray away from adventurers, while more aggressive creatures would seek them out. Doesn't that sound FUN? Furthermore, lets do away with the hitpoint system in favor of a system that accounts for how an actual living body functions. Being hit in the arm with a steel battle axe for 49.85 damage is a ludicrous statement. Being hit in the arm with a steel battle axe, cutting through flesh and bone, severing nerves and tendons, losing your grip on your shield or weapon, going into shock from the pain and blood loss, even losing the limb completely, that is all reasonable, dangerous, risky, and makes for a good story. Give me a combat system where I can aim my attacks for weakpoints, cripple opponents, go for a kill shot, dodge, parry, counter. Give me a combat system that has lasting, detrimental effects on my character. Loss of limbs, nerve damage, scars.
Magic: Magic in this game is entirely too easy, and carries no risk. Magic should be an absolutely risky artform, as you are using arcane forces, playing with the elemental forces of the universe. It shouldn't be such an easy task. It should also have detrimental, long lasting effects on your character, via mechanics. As it stands, I can just stand on a rock and blast helpless creatures into oblivion with a machine gun spray of fireballs, with no risk or repercussions. So it drains MP, but what effect does that have on my character? Why doesn't she get drowsy, or grow feeble from the exertion? Give the character tangible consequences for their actions, don't rely on the player to RP it out. Make RP an undeniable, integral part of gameplay. Let's close the gap between grinders and RPers. Perhaps a riskier system may be a Vancian, or a ritual magic system, where spells must be prepared beforehand and thus are limited. Spells which weaken a character upon casting would be favorable too.
Death: In conclusion, where it belongs, Death. Death, as it stands, is a joke. It's either a minor inconvenience or is shortcut back to town. It's only a real problem to a new player who is lost in the DR for the first time. I understand that there are plans to make the DR a less navigable place, with entrances and exits shifting at random, a nebulous labyrinth, a real ordeal to traverse, so I won't discuss that. What I will ask for is a game mechanic which enforces Permanent Death. Make Permanent Death a real risk that characters and players both must face and suffer, whether it be through criminal execution, assassination, or strictly being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course, this would require more settings discussion on what exactly can cause permanent death.
I expect the popular argument against these changes will be, "But Aramara! I've spent years grinding away turning my helpless peasant into an almighty demigod, I don't want to LOSE my character!"
Learn to lose, learn to live.
I'd love to discuss other options for a gaming system that doesn't include leveling through endless grinding, but perhaps that's for a separate thread.
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The problem with this approach is that only the exceptionally lucky would survive their first trip to the Bronze Doors with a still playable character. After all you would want to change characters ability to outrun any critters wouldn't you? As it stands now the only danger they possess is if you run out of stamina and have to rest, or they somehow hide behind a rock and surprise you.
I have to say, I played the old Runequest pen and paper role playing game which had such a brutal philosophy and more often than not one or more players did not survive half the adventure and rolling a new character was overly common and wasted everybody else's time.
If you are going to go this route you might as well just stop saving characters between sessions because the only characters who are going to stick around are the ones that play out "The Young and the Restless" or "Coronation Street."
I can see it now "well I lost another arm today, walking from Hydlaa here to Ojaveda. Fed it to an ulbernaut, I did. Good thing I still have my legs, it is"
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Like I said, I'd expect encounters with the more dangerous beasts to be rare, but the threat of the chance of such an encounter would greatly promote roleplay. Guards would be hired to escort caravans along viable trade routes, players would group up as adventurers and go seek out that troublesome Ulbernaut who's been ravaging the road from Hydlaa to Ojaveda to vanquish it and return with it's head in a sack and be treated to a hero's banquet. Why? because they actually risked something to do so.
The loss of life and limb can be counteracted by a more thoroughly thought out magic and death system. Lose a limb in battle and manage to survive? Offer a sacrifice to the right Deity and you just might get it back. Happen to bleed out and die? Make a deal with Dakkru to allow you to return to the land of the living intact, in exchange for carrying out her demands. Spells that, rather than add to your hitpoint count, instead cauterize severe wounds, or regenerate lost limbs, but at a heavy price for the caster. Afterall, Xiosia demands balance, doesn't she?
Ideally this would lead to the formation of adventuring groups, comprised of characters fulfilling different strategic roles, rather than individual ubermensch who specialize in everything and are masters of all, both sword and magic, armor and stealth, strength and agility, brains and brawn. There has got to be give AND take, wins AND losses.
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Or even better; Character waaay stronger at creation, with a handful of high skills and only bases in a few others, no orvery little progression possible, and any death is permanent.
Write an original background every week, or be very cunning and prudent and live a month or so, old-school-Cthulu like.
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I think you are right, there's lots of rooms for improvement on this topic. Sitting on the tavern and discussing you have 200 ulbernaut furs in the bank is hilarious, same when you have to stand on a rock and throw arrows to standing mobs to lvl up. On the other hand, the devs, as well as many players are aware of that, with the last updates the mobs are not killed as fast and their rewards are higher.
Your proposition may sound a bit extreme to some people but I think its the right way to go. Being reckless should bear penalties that are not easy to overcome. I like your ideas on passing a test from Dakkru to leave the DR and having to find healers to treat your permanent wounds. All these armor spells that now just add a number to an equation could gain secondary protective effects against permanent harm too. About the DR, perhaps a randomly generated labyrinth would work, something like that has already been mentioned concerning randomly generated "rabbit holes" created by creature tribes. Especially if its a labyrinth full of monsters! :devil:
One last thing, all these will make the game more fun but will not prevent the appearance of the "semi-gods" (very nice term btw) and having characters permanently killed without the player's agreement is a step that will have to be very seriously discussed since it would change the style of the game a lot. Personally I'd be willing to give it a thought. If not though, something needs to be done, my idea is increasing the experience needed to lvl up in each skill with every skill lvl you already have. That would prevent someone gaining highest ability in too many things. Perhaps mastering a Way of magic would double the exp needed to master a second way (and quadruple for a 3rd way). This requires another thread if it is ever considered.
I hope this thread goes a long way with lots of suggestions... you have hit a very crucial point here!
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Write an original background every week, or be very cunning and prudent and live a month or so, old-school-Cthulu like.
of course, there are peaceful alternatives to the daring adventurer available. but what about implementing the dangers of everyday town-dwelling folk: crime, poverty, famine, and disease. not enough players playing as farmers and cooks? too bad, your entire city population was just wiped out. better luck next time. of course, this would require implementing hunger and thirst, and an overall health status.
I don't think ALL death should be permanent, but death should be made into a much more strenuous ordeal. Or in a Dakkruist's mindset, the perfect vacation getaway.
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I don't think ALL death should be permanent, but death should be made into a much more strenuous ordeal. Or in a Dakkruist's mindset, the perfect vacation getaway.
I'd love to see escaping the Death Realm as something legendary, that only a few can achieve. The place would be full of hidden dangers, dead ends and traps. It could be randomly generated as you advance, and change over time so you couldn't get back on you tracks (what you say? Code-wise impossible? Damn...).
Your idea concerning farmers (and by extent any related concept) is seductive but I think hard to be put alive, since it'd take a lot more players, and it's a character-concept almost no-one would like to play. Let the NPC do the boring stuff, we're here to play!
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Actually I disagree with that, I have played a game recently that implemented not only farming, woodcutting and various other forms of crafting and resource gathering but even ecosystems, politics and real economy. It is as fun as it can get, believe me. And it doesn't take a lot of players, fewer players means less quantity of food needed of course.
But saying how all this is missing from the game right now doesn't make much sense, there are many more things that need to be implemented first.
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Aramara, these are awesome ideas, however I have to differ on one fine point, and that's the separation of roleplay and game mechanics.
How many one armed, tailless, blind, or fingerless characters do you see in planeshift?
Few
This is a clear indicationn in my opinion, that most folks would not enjoy being dismembered. I have also found this true when roleplaying violent scenes... Most players do not want permanent damage.
I don't fault players for this like I used to, rather I find that I have to respect their preferences - whether I like it or not.
A while ago I requested that there be a pvp zone by the plat mines so that theives would have a chance to steal - threatening to kill them if they didn't pay up. I also wanted to be able to have a chance at pick pocketing against a character's will. What I have come to see since then is that its better to go with what the player consents to.
When you go against what the player wants you end up with drama, hurt feelings, and so on. That kinda sucks when you are just trying to have some fun.
So where am I going?
As a player, I don't want the game mechanics to interfere with my roleplay or with my characters. If I fall off a cliff because I spilled coffee on ly mouse, or get killed by a gm-animated maulber with invincibility mode on, I'm not going to roleplay a death.
The same goes for npc's. Just because a guard npc just stands there all day, doesn't mean I should rp that he is a useless tool who is frozen stiff or who just doesn't care.
There are many fine spots like this you have to separate roleplay from the mechanics -- otherwise you end up with inconsistent rp.
Another example is the death realm. I can run through it in a few minutes, but do just pop b ack like nothing happened would violate settings.
Lastly, I come accross as criticizing your ideas, I appologize - that's not my intention.
Whisper Bless,
Rigwyn
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Reminds me a bit of the old Sierra quests, where you poor char instantly died in a huge variety of ways, just stepping in the wrong direction, or pulling some wrong thing. They were rather fun because of the stress element (but at some point fun becomes frustrating).
In general I agree that currently the risk element isn't implemented properly. The fact that creatures are static, non agressive, don't move around and so on impacts the game very badly. Any intended benefits against abusing dynamic mobs are outweighed by the stalled and frozen world.
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Rigwyn, I would suggest that, in a system in which there is a risk of losing one's limb, there should also be a way to gain that limb back and overcome injury. That's where magic and other things come in. But it shouldn't be as easy as selecting a target and pushing a button, there should be some concept of equivalent exchange taking place, a price to be paid. If you become injured and crippled in battle, that should set you off on a quest to find a way to heal from it, whether that be Crystal Way, or through your chosen Deity, Alchemy, or heck, even crafting a replacement limb from a tree branch and animating it with Brown Way. The possibilities should only be limited by settings and the imagination of the player. But do you see how that narrative emerges from the gameplay mechanics? that's what I'm after.
I could go on and on about how the game would be much better off without the NPCs, but that's a conversation for another thread. I'll meet you there. ;)
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Actually, as I understand, the game originally did not have all this jazz, so there was more focus on imagination and pretending. I wasn't playing back then, so I'll end it there...
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Nothing beats real "paper" roleplay Aramara. I doubt you can ever achieve the same feeling in the computer game.
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What it sounds to me what Aramara is looking for is called "Free Form Role Playing", and well its just not in the scope of a PC game let alone a MMORPG game.
Though having some kind of "Permadeath" game trigger I do like, how ever the only way i could foresee-ably see it coming to pass is an extra incentive not to go to "God hood". Meaning the more Maxed out you are the higher chances you don't come back. (like your highest skill level 100, highest stat 200, starts the low percentage all the way to max, where its high 90's of not returning)
Why? For one if you look at say your classic role playing and fantasy worlds, Arch Mages are extraordinarily rare, and guards are a dime a dozen. The above idea would help re-enforce that idea. Second you don't really want to go after all levels of players equally. Some players just like to "Free form" it in the game, granted most of them don't end up in the death realm because they don't quest and don't power up and refuse any RP fights where their character might be nicked. Theres also the fact the community so shoves down a new persons throat "Just starting, READ EVERYTHING AND BE AND EXPERT IN PS before you move away from that spawn field", an exaggeration yes but you see my point. Now if Joe blow just spent a week building up a his first character, learning then oppses, falling off the cliff, boom permadeath, thats just one more excuse to "Quit playing Planeshift".
If you take 'permadeath' to the extreme, of makeing it a rarity coming out alive, then it will drastically alter how things are done in game. (what happened to X, the husband, the merchant who was buying X) etc. Worse yet, theres a game called "Parinoia" where your given 7 clones and the object of the game is to survive roughly the first adventure with at least one in tact. You implement that say even 5% will survive? how detailed am i going to make a background on a character whose lifespan is only going to last a week. Why join a guild, heck why make a guild, or and adventuring band... no point, you will be dead by friday.
Also with an MMORPG you have an "Online Identity" how would you keep track of the regular players you play with when their identities flying by on a daily basis... the worst case of Character gen... Hes the brother of X who was the brother... second cousin, just to try to keep a name so their friends know who they are, let alone keep track of any RP plot lines. You can forget people making backgrounds or a interesting character, you just die after 7 days of either an opps or a "Random encounter". At least with a GM they can 'pull a punch' giving your character a chance to escape. Computer games just don't do that. You just don't have that with an MMORPG or any PC RPG I ever seen. BUT...
An Idea that had a while back might give you something of what you wanted but the Licenses procudes making it. Its to take the game it self, strip the quests, the training elevating and turning it into a 3D Virtual High Fantasy Free Form RPG. That way players or a GM could direct the shots. But you cant have that unless the licenses says so, and so Art, Concept, Monsters, ie all belong to the company that owns the rights to planeshift and 'cant be duplicated'. Since the games in beta, and they haven't finished it, any steps to making the one above wont work.
What might make an interesting project is to create the 3d high fantasy Free Form game using Planeshift system but you would literally have to create your own world, plus provide tons of art. I have thought about doing this my self, kind of setting it to a AD&D world of FR or a homage of sorts to it, but don't have 10 years to devote to making all of it happen.
As far as Loosing an arm goes... We got character races still missing skins that cant even sit down right, and you want to add missing appendages?
I'm beginning to think this thread should be in the 'complaint department'.
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There appears, to me, to be a basic concept of the original poster. The basic concept seems, to me, to be that PS game mechanics have; by and large; not supported the original concept of the free form RP which PS has been known for in the past. (Nor has the game mechanics supported even the more traditional table top rpg style of game play.)
It would surprise me a great deal to see development of this project make such a radical change to accommodate what the OP has in mind.
That is not to say that the development team has not given the means to make such a game world possible.
Just take a look at a screenshot (http://trollkeep.com/images/shot08.jpg) of the PS server running on my computer. There seems plenty there to have a group of characters being run by a GM through some adventure. Maybe a dwarf will have to stand in for a goblin until someone gets blender (http://www.blender.org/) figured out; yet we have all been there with miniatures filling in for something or another that they were not intended for in table rpgs.
It would be very interesting to see such a project; which would only add mechanics and art work that aided the goals of the OP; becoming a reality.
The tools appear available to make such a project a reality. What seems lacking is the will to make such a project a reality by those who seem to show a desire for it via similar threads and postings on this forum.
- Nova
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Gosh there is so much to read in this thread. I've lost some thoughts by the time I got this far. Mind you that is because there are posts with content rather than "you are stupid poopy head" arguments ;D
What it sounds to me what Aramara is looking for is called "Free Form Role Playing", and well its just not in the scope of a PC game let alone a MMORPG game.
I agree with Korumak here. I think that these ideas are good(although I don't necessarily agree with all of it), but when you break it down the biggest problem I see is not conceptual but the limits of technology and workforce. I don't think you can achieve this kind of detail in this medium, even with an unlimited budget.
Reminds me a bit of the old Sierra quests, where you poor char instantly died in a huge variety of ways, just stepping in the wrong direction, or pulling some wrong thing. They were rather fun because of the stress element (but at some point fun becomes frustrating).
I agree with this as well. For me the equivalent was Ancient Domains of Mystery (ADOM). The game is very simple graphically but highly detailed, you can do almost anything, and almost everything you do has consequences. However, you are doing good to keep a character for 5 mins since the odds are always stacked against you and then once you die, not only is the character good and dead, the game deletes the save file. This can get very frustrating very quickly. I like the level of thought put into the game but I don't feel like devoting my life to surviving the game since sometimes I just need a little something to do, not a major time investment.
I don't think ALL death should be permanent, but death should be made into a much more strenuous ordeal. Or in a Dakkruist's mindset, the perfect vacation getaway.
Death is an ordeal, the mechanics are not, and, to be fair, if you rely on mechanics to teach people to RP you will always have trouble. The mechanics will always be lacking in some way. Although I think a DR map upgrade with equivalent quests and items would help this issue greatly, if you try to use limiting mechanics to force people to RP the settings right, more than likely, it will just end up being frustrating to people and force people to just find OOC ways around the issue.
In the end, I think making actions consequential is a good idea, but it needs to be balanced with keeping game play open (and not burdensome) to all, including those that don't have a lot of time to devote to learning the quirks and plotting ahead. I think the best way to do this is to not completely overhaul the system, or really bust your hump trying to make a game more "real", but rather to make the game more intuitive.
In an intuitive game, mechanics would follow logically and would provide incentives to play along with settings. By incentives I mean making it easier to play with settings rather than against it. For instance, you don't need the DR to be so much larger. What you need is access to merchants, trainers, and items that are equivalent to what you can find in Hydlaa. It is is supposed to have the same kind of details that the realm of living people have and that is much easier to recreate via mechanics than it is with art. Further, the reason to jump back and forth is that you can't get everything you need where you are. For some reason there is a notion in PS that you must be sent all over the place to get you to spread out or to make the game play better but I'd challenge that as it only serves to make people spend less time in other places since they are so busy running the long quest routes. And it is typically just tedious and frustrating, not good game play.
It would take time to make equivalent quests and set up new trainers and merchants for each place but it would be worth it for the return. People could travel to Amdeneir and actually stay there and RP for a while since they would be able to do similar quests and get the training they want/need to do in that area also. It actually doesn't add much more than frustration to send people all over on wild goose chases and the travel time cuts greatly into RP. Even on mounts a lot of time is lost since there is a never ending stream of "go fetch it" things to do. (might I also add that this would probably cause fewer game stopping bugs than other features)
In addition, despite the fact that you could play the game without NPCs, let's just accept that people will generally follow the NPCs before they follow the RP, especially if they have never RPed before. I personally think we can do without relying on mechanics so much but I know people will do that so at this point I look for how to make the system half way work. Making most training available in all cities would prevent people from leaving RP situation to chase that next level in whatever, same with chasing that particular weapon type, so on and so forth. I can see some things being exclusive to certain places but not basic things and things that make the game more playable. Have one mount available outside of the winch and have better mount inside. Practical thing is now available to everybody but there is still something to achieve for those that want it.
On a topic more along the OP example. To make combat more intuitive. Damage modifers could be attached to certain types of blows and percentages would need to be changed to the types of blows. For example, a blow to the head could do way more damage than a blow to the arm but it could also be a more rare occurrence to prevent you from being insta killed constantly. It's not loosing an arm but for what it is worth, a blow to the arm isn't always a matter of a direct blow that takes off the arm. It might just be a glancing blow, but a blow to the head is problematic pretty much no matter what. Brains are such fragile things. ;)
For the RP aspect, the community now needs to step up more like in the past, simply set standards and stick by them in their own RPs. Make sure, collectively, that your RPs work with the mechanics instead of against them. If you have fun RP, people will want to join. If you have certain standards, like not killing frivolously, others will eventually imitate so that they can have fun playing along with you. For instance, the guards can't bust every little thing because they're NPCs, but you should RP along with the mechanics and play as if the guards can, while in the city. Well for the most part. They can't catch every "little" thing but big things yes.
This will help to not aggravate the RP settings/mechanics divide further. The community was better able to self regulate this kind of stuff in the past because of unspoken understandings that developed due to the way RPers worked together (obviously not universal but more effective) to uphold certain standards. This is partially because the community wasn't waiting for mechanics to create a general consensus on things, they just played along and got a feel for what was expected. A lot of the mechanics weren't around then but the system still worked, so it should be even easier to do such things now that some more mechanics are around to regulate.
yikes! This is long for something that is not an angry rant. :o
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It would take time to make equivalent quests and set up new trainers and merchants for each place but it would be worth it for the return. People could travel to Amdeneir and actually stay there and RP for a while since they would be able to do similar quests and get the training they want/need to do in that area also.
This seems a great idea to me! :thumbup:
- Nova
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This is not a flame (and apologies for its length), but a summary of my view which others may like or dislike. To explain my background, I first played this game over 6 years ago, dropping by on occasions to see it’s progress, and have played numerous (free) other games with varying levels of rp, some with some without game mechanics.
Since I’ve been playing this game the player base has always seen a small minority of hardcore rp’ers frustrated by the game mechanics or who don’t use it, some have left :(, some remain :). There are others who balance their rp with the mechanics as far as is possible adjusting to the mechanics at the time. The remaining are casual rp’ers power levelling, questing, chasing mounts etc. While it could be argued some of the latter should be on ezpcusa, I have seen many progress from their interest in the game mechanics to become very good rp’ers. My view is that the game mechanics should not be dismissed too lightly as it has and can attract a good source of new rp’ers while maintaining the interest of many existing rp’ers in trying the new features as they are added. The big weakness for rp here at the moment is the acutely small player base hence why I think any newcomers should be encouraged as long as they have some interest in rp.
However we should also remember that the game is still in development (and we are testers). The team is not large, nor paid, and is unlikely to increase significantly to match other games where revenue is earned either by upfront fees or purchases in game. Thus comparative development will be slow and limited with more enthusiasm in developing and trialling new features (e.g. in recent times – mounts, shields, leather/armour working, moving npc’s etc.), rather than ‘minor’ bug fixing and constant rebalancing as each new feature adds further imbalance. For me the main imbalance is the level of skills some players have through years of levelling (or exploiting imbalances). However this is currently useful for the developers as it provides a more varied base of testers from weak to the uber strong, but unfortunately gives a distorted view of capabilities than if the players were reset (or rebalanced) allowing other parameters better balanced. While not suggesting a review or reset until the developers are happy they have reached an appropriate point I think many forget the weakness and difficulties faced during the 1st few weeks or months.
Considering the points from this view, and developments I have observed:-
Combat: Many of my alts, though partially levelled adequate to their rp needs, are easily killed by most creatures so avoid them. Regarding being randomly attacked for being too close I’ve seen Ulbernauts and other creatures randomly attacking miners or other unsuspecting victims in the past (maybe as it often added to lag and the npc server crashing this has been put on hold recently?). In terms of spawning and moving mobs etc. perhaps the moving npc’s experiment currently underway will yield coding to enable this development in the future? The other features you suggest , I think, may require diverting development but, personally, as I can disable the messages or ignore them from an rp view I don’t think it to be too important.
Magic: Personally I think standing on a rock is an exploit and should be frowned upon as is standing on the wall of the arena, and perhaps one day mobs will learn to climb :D. Again most of my alts are unable to perform magic as powerfully as you describe struggling with mana and fear of death when spells fail. For years many complained about the weakness of magic and and I think a couple of uber powerful spells have again distorted people’s views of it. These I think needs correcting. Also the current development trend seems to be to limit higher levels to one magic way, which may not make mana regeneration, as an example, so easy for most. Balancing magic progress to match weapon fighting progress may be another possibility to add to the list.
Death: Yes, I recall the intent was for a larger realm with shifting exits. I also remember being randomly attacked and being killed again as I tried to escape or wandered into the library? areas there though clearly this was more detrimental to the weaker players who could take hours to escape. As regards perma death it’s always been easy to play this for rp’ers. I’ve done it many times. It’s before you go in game – simply delete character. Most of my alts avoid the DR as if it were real death from an rp point of view.
My own ideal for the rp world here is better balance all around so rp’ers can use the mechanics sensibly without being upset by the uber strong. Some making goods, other selling, some begging, some telling yarns or entertaining in the tavern after a long day’s work, others sharing jokes and gossip as they toil etc. intermingled with the deeper rp’s. I’ve seen all this here in the past and hope it flourishes again along with a growing player base.
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Maybe the experiment recently ended by Talad offering a specific server for non-RP could resurface with the exact opposite requirement, hard core RPers only.... and be enforced. Originally, the non RPers were reluctant to switch servers and lose characters and all there skills, but no such impediment would be an obstacle for those who play to RP. This server could operate under a complete other set of rules, possibly some even defined by the players.
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On the one hand that is a very good idea but I think it would be very hard to actually implement. RP rules have always been a sticky matter. -_-
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Maybe the experiment recently ended by Talad offering a specific server for non-RP could resurface with the exact opposite requirement, hard core RPers only.... and be enforced. Originally, the non RPers were reluctant to switch servers and lose characters and all there skills, but no such impediment would be an obstacle for those who play to RP. This server could operate under a complete other set of rules, possibly some even defined by the players.
that's not a bad idea at all. of all the RPers I've had the pleasure of interacting with, they all seem to be an agreeable sort. Sure it may be chaotic at first, but it's worth the experiment, is it not?
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Getting off topic a little, but that second server is being used for testing.. which is really needed for stability. The idea of an RP-Only or Elite-RP server has been bounced around in the past and got a cold response for the most part.
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If all the hardcore RPers leave who's gunna be around to teach us n00bs how to RP well? :P
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If all the hardcore RPers leave who's gunna be around to teach us n00bs how to RP well? :P
excellent point. but I don't think the idea is to create an exclusive server. Personally I strive for full inclusion in RP, but frustration arises when there is an active RP taking place, with players actively ignoring it while they grind away. The intent of the original suggestion in this thread was to try and find a way to bring together the grinders and the RPers into a system that works for both. I just get frustrated in feeling that there are two separate games taking place, and the direction of development seems to favor one over the other.
Now, there ARE players who somehow find a way to play both games, and Gods bless them. Maybe one day they will let us in on their secret. But if there was a strict RP server, I'd imagine it'd be a bare bones version of the game. Basically just the physical settings, no NPCs, sparse mobs, items to use as props, and really that's it. New RPers would surely be welcome and encouraged greatly.
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My advice would be to let the grinders alone and include them if they ever come around. Trying to force people together created more friction, trying to explain how to play together, trying to ask them to play together, trying to make incentives for them to play together etc... all ended up making matters worse until everyone left. Better to just leave a spot for them and hope they eventually like what they see and come around.
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I am a grinder. I rarely do anything that is not advancing my characters skills. I talk a lot in gossip and less in main. I do not suppose I have much of a character that isn't also my own. There are others like me and we are the ones the coders code for. Play out your stories great and small and enjoy them as much as you want. You are as the nobility playing games over top our workaday world. Do not fault us for our lack of imagination for you need none of the worldly trappings we crave.
Or some such nonsense like that. :)
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so you are suggesting to bring up a database with just svn data and be fine with it. Essentially the game was finished years ago.
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The rp only concept sounds very nice, but it has a huge problem. It will only work for people who got a lot of time to be online. For casual players like me, e.g., it is a problem to hard core rp. We need the npc-s. I was online yesterday, but will be back next weekend, maybe. The npc doesn't mind, but for rp fellows it would be really annoying to have to wait for someone who only appears sometimes, and at unpredictable times.
And please stop to address people as grinders in a deprecatory way who just develop their character along the game's rules.
Just my two Euro-cents :)
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so you are suggesting to bring up a database with just svn data and be fine with it. Essentially the game was finished years ago.
My feeling is that to the more extreme of RPers (and that word is used solely in the context of what it means on PS) you are correct weltall. What surprises me is that someone has not picked up the ball; immersed themself/selves in Blender; and gotten on with it. In my opinion, the generous gift of the svn package leaves little room for whining.
- Nova
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My advice would be to let the grinders alone and include them if they ever come around. Trying to force people together created more friction, trying to explain how to play together, trying to ask them to play together, trying to make incentives for them to play together etc... all ended up making matters worse until everyone left. Better to just leave a spot for them and hope they eventually like what they see and come around.
Exactly my point of view, it is not only wrong to force people into a RP but also counterproductive.
Just an example: what if someone is playing a RP about mature or bloody contents and another player would not feel comfortable with such themes and wants to drag him in at all costs? It would not only be a good way to have that a player log off but it could even be considered lack of respect.
I think that letting me the opportunity to join the RP or just ignore it would have the best chances to have that player join the RP (in the future) or not having him trying to avoid the RPing char in the future.
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Well, in my sense (and please believe I have some experience as a rolemaster), what people like in RPGs is doing things, an not idle IC chat. Problem is, idle IC chat is the only type of RP available so far (unless you have high description skills and a great proficiency in English (which is, for instance, not my case)). 'Doing stuff' is highly repulsive to RPers as of now because the rules/mechanics corpus is so far from a model representing a reality. Fights are not deadly at all, if your skill is low you don't even have the slightest chance to do what a high-ranker can do (actually you can't even try), there is no coded 'cognition' stat, and much, much more.
I din't think there is sense in trying to emulate a tabletop RPG, which itself is designed to emulate a reality (note that I said A reality, not THE reality). The very thing that makes a tabletop what it is is the absence of direct interface, so I don't think we can achieve this. I think the mechanics should stick to a realist model rather than trying to get close to a RPG-concept. Beside, I don't think a realist model would impair the grinders' fun, and I'm convinced it might even help them feel an inclination to RP, as it will make much easier to identify their character's actions as their. Now, I'm only an occasional grinder (it's rare there is more than 30 on when I log in), and I'd love to hear a 'professional grinder''s opinion on that.
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I beg you.No more RP..
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Problem is, idle IC chat is the only type of RP available so far
this is absolutely not true. Currently there are many great, engaging story lines taking place that are much, much more than idle chat.
And I don't believe that implementing such detailed mechanics is at all impossible. Currently I'm playing a game (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/features.html) which has such detailed, engaging mechanics which through the simple act of gameplay produce wonderfully immersive and hands down epic narratives. That game has been in development for about as long as PS, and is only being coded by one guy. It's not impossible, it can be done. It's been done in roguelikes and MUDs. It can be done here.
The only thing is that DF is a single player. I love the communicative storytelling aspects of PS, being able to work with other players to forge the narrative, but, like I mentioned in the original post, that usually comes at the cost of ignoring the mechanics of the game completely. That is an affront to the developers who've worked on the mechanics side of things. Also, the players who spend every second of gameplay grinding away are in no way engaging other players, which is an affront to the stated purpose of the game.
I'm sorry to keep going back to combat as an example, but it's probably the easiest aspect of the game in which this disparity can be illustrated. If there was a fight between two players taking place, and Player A says "/me thrusts his saber at Player B's side while it is exposed" there should be a mechanic that coincides with that action and dictates its results, results that each player/character has to live and deal with, and react to appropriately.
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What you want is a tabletop rpg, which this one is not...
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I'm not sure you can use DF as a comparison; fortress mode implies no direct control over the characters, and Adventure mode is turn-by-turn (I fail to see how a 'aim your hits' system would work in a real-time game, as an example). However, the effort put in avoiding any nonsensical abstraction such as hit points is to be noted. So far, the 'random' aiming system is rather satisfying, even if a high skill superiority over your target should probably increase the chances to hit most vital / unprotected location (rather than having an effect on the amount of damage, how absurd is that... almost as absurd as dying only by being hit at the hands).
So far PS is getting more and more of a hack-and-slash, and a boring one.
Problem is, idle IC chat is the only type of RP available so far
this is absolutely not true. Currently there are many great, engaging story lines taking place that are much, much more than idle chat.
Well you invent story lines, but you get none of the action they involve ingame (at least not mechanic wise). You have to tell everything. Rules supporting creative actions would help greatly reducing the writing-skill barrier and eliminate the need to reach a consensus between all involved party (also, a tested-out system that would take account of numbered stats and skills would give a concrete interest in character progression related to RP).
I think the narrative approach is popular only among a restricted class of roleplayers, and well above the capabilities of an engine-ruled game.
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Adventure mode is turn-by-turn (I fail to see how a 'aim your hits' system would work in a real-time game, as an example).
If you've ever RPd a combat scenario, you'd know that it's near impossible to do without taking turns. So why not build mechanics around that? Yes, this is a real-time game, but how about combat mechanics which are turned base, so that when a duel challenge is accepted, a turn-based mechanics takes over between the two players (or between player and mob).
So far PS is getting more and more of a hack-and-slash, and a boring one.
Exactly! And what if, instead, when our characters ventured out for a hunt, it was a real dynamic experience, an ADVENTURE, in which they had to make choices, take risks, make a sacrifice here and there and come out victorious (or die in an epic struggle)?
What you want is a tabletop rpg, which this one is not...
Let's try to remain open minded here, since when was the world so divided into black and white? Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't we develop a system that brings the two halves together?
In my original post, I was not asking for a further divide. The idea of a strict RP server was brought up and I agreed that it may be worth a try, but the ideas being discussed in this thread are meant to forge a link between RP and mechanics. The two should be reflective of each other, intrinsically intertwined, not dividing lines.
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And now to something completely different: The Larch
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Aramara, while it may be possible, I'm pretty sure you can't do that with this medium, for all practical purposes. You more or less have to change the foundational structure of MMOs to make it work. This is probably why RP is retreating across the board in this medium.
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What you want is a tabletop rpg, which this one is not...
Let's try to remain open minded here, since when was the world so divided into black and white? Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't we develop a system that brings the two halves together?
In my original post, I was not asking for a further divide. The idea of a strict RP server was brought up and I agreed that it may be worth a try, but the ideas being discussed in this thread are meant to forge a link between RP and mechanics. The two should be reflective of each other, intrinsically intertwined, not dividing lines.
Actually, I fully agree with you in that respect. But, as Illysia said, the mechanics to implement this would be extremely cruel :) - probably going Elder Scrolls way ... .
The element of risk would be nice to have, to go back. Maybe mobs should stop attacking after you are almost dead, then you have to find a healer... Otherwise, a stronger mob or player attacks, you are dead, finish. So you must have a way out, somehow. More trouble, but doable, and probably worth it.
What I really would like is magic without fighting (hypnosis, taming, or similar), but this will have to be a different thread.
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I think there are definitely good comments in this thread, the basic point is in fact risk. As we designed the death realm, we envisioned it as a place where you may roam for days before coming out, in an ever changing set of puzzles and places. The issue is that we didn't yet develop it as much as we would like. With a bigger Death Realm, dying will become definitely more scary, at least for the ones who want to live in Yliakum, and will make every fight more adrenalinic. This is still in our plans, just not implemented fully.
The second point is true death, we have plans and actually half-developed a true death area, where the players willing to, will have the risk to really die, so their char will be deleted from the database in that case. This is will be at the option of the players anyway, in very limited places, where you explicitly enter and approve to be in.
These are the two parts of risk we planned already long time ago and are still on plan.
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What I really would like is magic without fighting (hypnosis, taming, or similar), but this will have to be a different thread.
there was a really nice thread a while back with spell suggestions, a good amount of them not associated with combat, ie red way spells that deal with metalcrafting. I was looking for it to offer you a link, but I can't find it now.
Talad, I really look forward to the expansion of the Death Realm, as well as the expansion of other locales in the game. That's the kind of development that promotes RP rather than hinders it.
Now, restricting Permanent Death to certain areas I feel is a more dubious solution. I think the proper steps that need to be taken are this, first, let's come to a consensus in settings as to what can cause Permanent Death, how does Dakkru and the Death Realm fit into Permanent Death, what exactly happens at Permanent Death. Then, design the mechanics for Permanent Death around those settings. In other words, I don't think location is the circumstance which should dictate a permanent death, as much as cause of death should.
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Aramara, while it may be possible, I'm pretty sure you can't do that with this medium, for all practical purposes. You more or less have to change the foundational structure of MMOs to make it work. This is probably why RP is retreating across the board in this medium.
Yes, we're in total agreement, and that's basically what I'm asking for here, a total restructuring of the system. Here's the thing, the games that everyone refers to as MMORPGs are really mislabeled. They should be called MMOGs. PS included, as it stands. A player can log into PS, and play the entire game on their own, without any player/player interaction. Can you train skills and stats without interacting with others? certainly. Can you craft your own armor and weapons and gain all the glyphs necessary to becoming an all powerful war-mage without interacting with other players? why, yes of course. It's just neat to see other people running around doing the same, makes you feel included right?
But that's not what RP is about. RP is about interaction, engagement. So far, the only way development has made interaction necessary is to make gameplay as obscure and unintuitive as possible, and asking politely that players stay IC in main.
So what we have here is a game where every player's experience is basically the same. We've all done the same quests, fought the same mobs endlessly, and it's only the players who've taken it upon themselves to spin their own story threads that are having a unique experience, and trying our hardest to create a unique experience for everyone else as well. It's the player community which makes this game unique. It's about time the system catches up to that. This game shouldn't be able to function without players.
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This is true, but the kind of overhaul you are proposing it not very likely to ever get implemented. The workload for it is just too large. Not to mention, It is hard enough just to get mechanics that don't hinder RP much less reinforce it. This is a battle I would not suggest taking on, it's just too large. It's more likely to just leave you burnt out rather than accomplish something... I've seen many people, myself included, fall to that one.
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it's possible to notice someone plays too much when there are many people around to notice the problems of what is being said.
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What about a different approach? Instead of overhauling the mechanics to include things like loss of limb, true death, etc. in order to encourage roleplay (but still not enforce it), what about adding features that require, or at least reward, teamwork. For example, quests that can be completed in groups, dungeons with difficult hostile enemies so that it would be hard to make it through alone, hostile monsters and rogues along the roads so that people actually have a reason to hire mercenaries and travel in groups for safety. Maybe have a random event every once in a while where creatures climb out of the sewers and attack civilians, requiring nearby players to work together to stop them.
Most of these things require hostile enemies in order to work. Once we have hostile monsters this will open so many doors for other gameplay elements.
As for the issue that we all have the same in-game experience, how about randomly generated quests? A courier could ask you to deliver a letter or package to any randomly generated NPC, a baker or cook could ask you to bring any guard their dinner or specialty pie or whatever. An alchemist could ask you to deliver a potion to pretty much anyone. The guards could tell you that there have been an increased number of attacks by [insert creature] and ask you to bring x number of [that creature's loot] as proof that you've killed them. The type of creature could be randomly selected based on the character's combat abilities (always choose an enemy that is "about as strong as you" to keep things interesting).
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It's possible to see if something is meant to fail if those who would need to implement it can't take it serious. ;)
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it's possible to notice someone plays too much when there are many people around to notice the problems of what is being said.
I'm sorry, are you saying you'd rather us not play?
As for the issue that we all have the same in-game experience, how about randomly generated quests? A courier could ask you to deliver a letter or package to any randomly generated NPC, a baker or cook could ask you to bring any guard their dinner or specialty pie or whatever. An alchemist could ask you to deliver a potion to pretty much anyone. The guards could tell you that there have been an increased number of attacks by [insert creature] and ask you to bring x number of [that creature's loot] as proof that you've killed them. The type of creature could be randomly selected based on the character's combat abilities (always choose an enemy that is "about as strong as you" to keep things interesting).
here's something you can do, as a player, to engage others and offer a unique experience. Create a quest!
Not to toot my own horn here, but to give an example, once one my characters was working at the forges (her choice, not mine) when a player who was obviously logging in for the very first time ran around like a headless kikiri asking all sorts of OOC questions. So after some explanation of the difference of IC and OOC and the purpose of RP (all through /tells of course) he finally asked where he could find a hammer (or a pick, i forget) but he didn't have any tria. Some of the other players around told him to ask Harnquist for a job, but I stepped in and offered him a reward to deliver an item (a flower) to a guildmate. We worked it out in guildchat, and I told him her name and where he could find her and sent him on his way. Sadly, as soon as he reached her he crashed or logged off and was never seen again. But hey, I tried.
Very simple, didn't need much planning or forethought. But it engaged the player, gave him a unique task, would have introduced him to other active players and a RP hotspot.
I'm formulating ideas on how to develop a quest and training system that is completely player based, and would remove the need for NPCs. But that's for a different thread. Or maybe I should take others' advice and resign to my fate. But I like your ideas, I think they're steps in the right direction.
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( Sorry, I decided to delete this post after thinking about it some more. )
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it's possible to notice someone plays too much when there are many people around to notice the problems of what is being said.
I'm sorry, are you saying you'd rather us not play?
no I'd rather you understand that is not what everyone will find. So you'd need to know what others find too.