PlaneShift
Announcements => PlaneShift News and Rules => Topic started by: Talad on January 28, 2012, 05:28:34 pm
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Did you manage to craft high quality leather armor? We hope so, because it's now time for chain mail! We just added in game the ability to craft chain mail, be prepared to make lot of small steel rings to create gloves, torso, arms, pants, helms, and boots. Four in one patterns, riveted armor, there are quite some options to create high quality protective armor.
Quests are available as well to introduce the art of making chain mail, so be sure to speak to the blacksmith in various towns. The process is as close as possible to the medieval way of creating chain mail.
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The process is as close as possible to the medieval way of creating chain mail.
as opposed to the post-modern deconstructivist method?
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Leraider already sells Q300 sets...
Seems to be not too complicated. For those who have matching prerequisites.
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it's based on skills around since helms have been released.
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I wouldn't measure it by Leraider ;) But armor making could be trained before with making helms indeed.
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On the Meet the Devs event you said the next step would be to craft magical Armor and that you wanted the players opinions on how to do that.
Would that be this thread?
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You can probably expect very high skill requirement for magical armor crafting. At least they are already very high for most chainmail armor parts, so if the settings will go the same way for the rest, magical armor will be accessible only to the most advanced blacksmiths.
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I'd assume magical armor would also take some skill in magic. Perhaps each Way would have its own set of enchantments that require a certain skill in that Way in order to use. Or the strength of the enchantment would depend on the crafter's Way skill.
Of course I'm just guessing. I have no idea whats going on. We'll just have to wait and see :whistling:
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Just as a note but the 300q price for closed steel rings has no messed up prices in the game even more then they were before. You can make 9000 per stock of steel now which is more then even 300q bronze stock goes for. And they are incredibly easy to make. So now we'll just have people standing around making closed steel rings all day and selling them to the npcs. Plus 80 level for armor making skill to make the whole set is a little high. Right now I think the only person in the game who is active who can make them is Leraider.
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Since when did players started complaining that crafting became more rewarding? ;D
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Lol Only when the rewards are for the easy steps and they make it even more of a waste of time to actually make the items you are supposed to make such as weapons, helms, armor, and shields. Right now there is even less of a reason to do so.
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Given that final products don't give you enough profit and the whole thing is pretty messed up anyway (economically), having some components with high prices is not bad at all (think of spangens for example). At least crafters can cover their expenses with something besides metallurgy.
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Very true. But I'd prefer if the economy were fixed instead of making it more screwed up so that smiths can make profits of certain pieces. Here's to dreaming anyway.
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Economy needs a major fix in general. Minor fixes here and there won't help it really. So I don't pay attention anymore to weird or unrealistic quirks like high prices on some parts, and low on others. At least there should be some things which can cover your expenses. Fixing economy is really a whole projects on its own.
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Market demand could be factored in to the npc economy every 24hrs of game time. Depending on what had been purchased by npcs in the previous 24 hours of game time, the price that they would be willing to pay for the same item at the present game time could be weighted accordingly to what could then represent the demand factor.
- Nova
[ Edit: One could then play the market and have a real RP of a tycoon of some sort. :) ]
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They were thinking about that kind of thing in the summer of code project. There is one for adding demand and supply to the npcs market. Would be interesting if they did.
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If you want to do something immediate that would be of great benefit in the chain mail system it would be to allow any container to be used for pour the molds. The forges are already too busy. It might make more sense if you could not store the molten ore and it had to be poured as part of the melting but as it is it seems needless.
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Heh.. Well at least iron/steel is worth something now. Before it was worth less than the stone its smelted from.
As for having a real dynamic market I think that was already tried, sploited, and canned. A tiny economy is very easy to manipulate when you have huge discrepancies in wealth and resources.
If you ask me, the high profitability was probably put in place to encourage testing and/or to promote this feature. I wouldn't expect these prices to stay this way for too long xD
Its encouraging to see these recent changes and additions to the game. Looking forward to magical armor \o/
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A tiny economy is very easy to manipulate when you have huge discrepancies in wealth and resources.
A rl sidemark: This seems to work for any economy under these circumstances....
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how are there discrepancies in resources? anyone with a pick has an infinite supply at their fingertips. that is, of course, unless stillwater occupies all the mines.
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how are there discrepancies in resources?
Well Joe Miner might have 15 million in plat ore sitting in his guild house and another 5 million in tria jingling in his pocket while Sara Nobody is quibbling over the 10 percent *Stillwater tax* on her 20k of ore that she just broke her ass mining. In Planeshift, we have a small population that consists of both exceedingly rich and poverty-stricken players. Its not too hard to own a large enough chunk of resources/money to manipulate.
When you have a relatively large amount of money, you can manipulate a dynamic economy by buying or selling stuff at exaggerated prices . Buying huge quantities of bread from a friend or one of your alts for example, at prices 20x higher than normal would make it look like there is a high demand for bread. This would cause NPC's to raise their prices. Once the NPC does that, you could just sell him your bread at the higher price. Likewise, NPC prices could be forced lower - setting up an opportunity to buy at a huge discount. Since NPC's have limitless money and resources ( they are not bound by time like we are ), they could be exploited pretty badly... You could put a limit on how much they can buy and sell, but then players could max those limits - denying other players the ability to trade with the npc -- making themselves the only buyers or suppliers.
This is just a simple example for the sake of illustration and does not take into consideration any of the tactics that the game could use to detect and counter any manipulation.
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it also doesn't consider the fact that we can easily get rid of NPCs and any complex programming trying to run a dynamic economy, why try to simulate it when we can have the actual thing?
but then again, without any real implicit danger, no real need to buy up food or weapons, no commodity would have a value at all.
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If you'll get rid of NPCs you simply won't find enough customers for your products. At least it seems to be so.
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If you'll get rid of NPCs you simply won't find enough customers for your products. At least it seems to be so.
which tells you a little something about the real value of those items you've been making.
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If you'll get rid of NPCs you simply won't find enough customers for your products. At least it seems to be so.
An interesting experiment to let the real market dictate things might be to stop the npc purchases altogether and to allow character to character teaching.
Just the thought of it conjures up many potential abuses; yet all in all it could have a deflationary result.
- Nova
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Any changes such as are being contemplated here really ought to come with a skills wipe. No sense letting people trained up under the more generous npc system take advantage of people who have nowhere to sell their training product and no means to pay for their training. Everyone in the same boat for that.
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and what's wrong with a skills wipe? will it affect your RP? nerp.
I'm still working out a system where players can train others, it's a rough sketch for now, but i think it can be done in a way which will limit abuse. And what's wrong with a little abuse? People are inherently evil, it should be expected.
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which tells you a little something about the real value of those items you've been making.
Yes, given the demand. But to be fair, all other prices should be different as well in such case. Training for example. I'm gladly for characters trainers who won't rip off students like Ferryd and Barrin do ;)
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So the concept is to "limit" abuse because "what's wrong with a little abuse anyway?" As someone who knows first hand the history of this system, I have to say, I am not impressed. The players cannot be counted on to keep RP going on this system, but somehow they will take the place of NPC trainers? I don't think so. This project didn't start up yesterday and the only long term hope for this system is if the developers stick to brininging their project to completion with regards to how this system is intended to work.
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If we allow NPCs to continue selling things but stop them from buying anything the world will run out of tria. Hunting will become useless, since you can't sell the loot. You could hunt tefusangs and riverlings for hides, but seriously who's going to buy hides when they can't make any money selling leather armor? Smithing would grind to a halt, because what's the point of training your smithing skills up when everyone with a decent sum of cash already has 300q weapons and armor? Nobody's going to buy your stuff. If there's nobody hunting, there's no reason for cooks. If there are no smiths, there's no reason to go mining.
If you take out the NPCs, this game turns into a 3d chat room.
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I'd say players can be trainers, while NPC can stay trainers too. It will provide competition for crazy prices.
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here's my point, i could start a new character today from zero, do every quest, max all stats and skills, loot every possible item, get every glyph, every weapon, do everything and not once engage a single other player. yeah, it would take 10 years of realtime and it would be extremely boring, but hey, my life is overflowing with adventure, romance, and intrigue, so yeah, i want to escape to a world filled with dull, repetitive, monotonous tasks. so why make this game multiplayer? why make it online? the system doesn't call for engagement between players.
the questions you should really be asking are: Why does your character want to go out and slaughter thousands of creatures? Why does your character want to become a master armorer? Why does your character want to become a master smith or own the highest quality weapons? Why does your character want to buy stuff? Why does your character want to hunt or cook?
answer those questions and then you'll have the reasons to do those things.
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I'd say players can be trainers, while NPC can stay trainers too. It will provide competition for crazy prices.
heck, why would i charge for a lesson? what if, instead I'd say, prove to me your worth in combat before i take you on as a student, then i'll give you the training if i think you deserve it.
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Exactly. Some could teach for free, but selecting students on certain criteria and so on. It'll provide a more interesting system. Current settings present trainers as greedy gold hoarders.
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the questions you should really be asking are: Why does your character want to go out and slaughter thousands of creatures? Why does your character want to become a master armorer? Why does your character want to become a master smith or own the highest quality weapons? Why does your character want to buy stuff? Why does your character want to hunt or cook?
answer those questions and then you'll have the reasons to do those things.
Well sure, you can play your Who's Line is it Anyway game where "everything's made up and the points don't matter." But for people who want to play the game part and not only use the chat and "/me" command, things like skills and money do matter. Just like they would to the characters.
The only reason anyone is a smith, in-game or real life, is because the product is worth something. If you take away the reward the character gets for some action, you take away the character's incentive for doing it as well as the players.
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If you take out the NPCs, this game turns into a 3d chat room.
For RP purposes it would be my preference to RP the training with another PC. With all the moving about of trainers these days one could simply allow PC to PC training in a skill if the npc which normally trains it is not at its home patrol point. So it would be a coming and going to the ability; perhaps explained with 'You didn't understand the lesson' system messages when npc present.
When not present then allow teaching PC to PC. One could simply have npc movement regulated to control abuse while tinkering and tweaking.
- Nova
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here's my point, i could start a new character today from zero, do every quest, max all stats and skills, loot every possible item, get every glyph, every weapon, do everything and not once engage a single other player. yeah, it would take 10 years of realtime and it would be extremely boring, but hey, my life is overflowing with adventure, romance, and intrigue, so yeah, i want to escape to a world filled with dull, repetitive, monotonous tasks. so why make this game multiplayer? why make it online? the system doesn't call for engagement between players.
perfect something playable when no one is around. What is the problem if there is the opportunity to play the game when everyone is away? People complain of "npc not being around when they have time to play" and then want to make the game totally, really, unplayable when the players are not around? It's ok to give more options to interaction it's not ok to deny playability of the game because people aren't so lucky to be living in a region in the US time zones.
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Here is the thing Aramara, you do those things because it is the cultural imperative of the setting that you do those things. It is all those people know. You want to do something else, well go wander in the Stone Labyrinths and we will see you when you come back. You want to be a poet? there are books though you do not need them. You want to be a musician? there are instruments. There is more slated to come but what exactly are the npc's preventing you from doing? If people prefer going off to engage with the mechanics instead of you then maybe you haven't offered them anything they are interested in.
Personally I do not like typing very much, which may be hard to believe as I do so much of it. It is one thing to type here when I can choose to not post something I've written, or to type a bunch of drivel in gossip where I can be myself it is something completely different to try to partake in role play when you know you are not up to much inspiration and despite the fact that most of the others are very forgiving.
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.... What is the problem if there is the opportunity to play the game when everyone is away? People complain of "npc not being around when they have time to play" and then want to make the game totally, really, unplayable when the players are not around? ...
Let me fully support that. And, if you do not happen to have unlimited time to play, it is very hard to play using only player-player interaction. My partners, e.g., would be pretty sore to have to wait for me coming back one or two or more weeks later...
Yours Pakarro
PS. You can meet my master Pakerl (in the Family) in-game ...
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First of all to the subject in hand. I haven’t been able to try chainmail yet but I think it has to be questioned whether someone who gains sufficient armour training through making helmets or chainmail will be better placed to make leather torso armour or pants than a highly skilled leather maker? Indeed are leather pants actually more difficult than boots or gloves, which were much rarer commodities in medieval times?
Regarding player training or questing I earned through rp the position of inspector on a player based quest system, which was based on roleplaying capabilities. One big problem is favouritism. It is easy to foresee guilds favouring fellow guild members, friends appeasing friends or merely playing up to the inspectors particular rp ideals. It was difficult enough with a much smaller player base than here (we scrubbed and restarted 3 times in one year, before giving in). I imagine it would be almost impossible to police here, particularly with the varying styles of rp, and the inevitable arguments and attempts to dictate the system from those whose obsession is that their style of rp is the only type of valid rp.
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I think you have all missed the point in a discussion about preventing abuse. Of course you'll have rich players abusing the system. Welcome to the real world where it happens all the time. If you have enough resources you can control prices and make a killing. The point isn't to prevent players form making profit and abusing the system. The point is to make it more realistic. There is no realism right now with certain weapons being cheaper then the metal they are made from. And there is no realism in npcs buying items without even once adding in factors of prices being higher because of the effort someone put in to make that item. One reason why certain items are more expensive is because you are paying for the hours of work and the quality the item is made from. Quality shouldn't be the same for every item. 300q stock for example shouldn't be the same price as a 300q weapons made from it. The weapon took more time and effort to make plus more skill. The stock is nice but last I checked you can't kill or hunt with it (unless you chuck it at a creature and it crushes them :P) but a sword can be invaluable.
A supply and demand economy will fix that fairly quickly. Will there be players who are wealthy enough to mess around with the system and dump tons of inventory into the game to lower prices or horde it to jack prices up? Of course there will be. The issue isn't preventing abuse it's making the game more realistic. As of now the economy isn't close to real since npc prices never change, players sit around and make the same stupid things over and over so they can sell for the exact price to the npcs, and the more difficult work gets ignored since it won't make you any more of a proft. If I make thousands of bronze stock and sell them to the same npc they should for one refuse to buy at some point (no point in having 1000s of stock when you won't ever be able to work them all), and once the reach a certain point they should lower prices since they don't want anymore, that is if they will buy at all. Sitting around mining all day long to sell to player merchants who turn around and sell endless amounts of 300q stock is silly because no where in real life would that ever happen.
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As for the whole discussion about RP Aramara, I find it silly that hardcore RPers criticize players for working on their characters. Last I checked part of RP would be actually treating your character like they are real which of course last I checked means they have a job and do work for a living. So yeah some will go out and hunt all day. That's their job. Some will work on metal and smithing. That would be their job. You can't spend all day long talking or making up intricate plots. I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with RP, I love RP and my character is actually involved in some really long extended ones. But she also has a job to do so she can make a living.
I also find the simple grinders interesting as well (and yes I get caught doing that quite a bit). Last I checked this is supposed to be a game based on RP. I understand wanting to level up your character and get stronger but at some point it might be a good idea to think about the character and what they would want. I don't think anyone can stand in front of a forge all day long for 5 days straight without eating, going to the bathroom, sleeping, or just taking a break so they don't kill themselves.
The game needs to have a happy medium between the two in my opinion. My character trains fighting so he/she can become a famous fighter, or he/she trains weapons skills so he/she can be an even more productive hunter, or he/she trains crafting skills to make money selling things so he/she can make a living. But the character also is a person who doesn't just level things just because. Maybe he/she hates magic, or isn't really into weapons much, or maybe just wants to be a cook or barkeep. The game levelling system isn't just to grind, it's to develop your character as well. If you use it correctly it makes the character development even more interesting and fun. RP and grinding in other words don't have to be exclusive, they can work great together as well.
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The point isn't to prevent players form making profit and abusing the system.
You want a dynamic economy that is controlled by a few rich players? How about letting the Outlaws be the few rich players? Do that, and people will have to ditch the tri and invent their own system of currency.
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Haha you'll have to compete with Realito and his merry band. Plus I hear Stillwater has a good amount saved up too.
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Did you miss the part about people ditching the tria?
That means people stop using it altogether - hence its worth falls though the floor.. because now, instead of using money and all the game features that require money, those players that have not stormed off will find a way to play without it.
In the end those few rich players have a commodity that is only in use by NPCs.. and is worthless otherwise. Chances are there would be a money wipe to fix the economy.
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I'm confused as to how a change to supply and demand with npcs would result in such a case?
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The point is not to make a 100% realistic economy (it's not an economy simulator), as well as not to make things unusable. It should be something practical and something that makes the game enjoyable, where one can earn a living using a diversity of professions, and not only by working on ore, or bringing the population of maulbers to zero for the sake of piling up expensive hides. And obviously most common expenses (such as training) should be tied in to any kind of economy implemented. The situation where only the crafting elite can afford trainers is not good.
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I still can't picture why you think crafting is the only money maker. I can make 200 to 300k in a good long hunting trip as well. You can also make plenty mining as well. And last I checked dropping the price of smelting in half would still give you a nice good profit. The only time you have trouble earning tria is 1. you are new and don't know what is a good job to make it, or 2. you are not actually doing anything constructive when you train.
Let's go over all the ways you can waste time training while doing nothing constructive. 1. Sitting around casting spells over and over while not hunting is a waste of time and is grinding, if you run out of tria and PP doing that you get what you deserve. 2. Using low quality weapons such as 50q or 1/50q weapons in defensive stance so you can get a ton of hits in on a creature is a waste of time, and if you run out of tria and PP while doing it you yet again get what you deserve.
If you actually hunt to hunt while you also train you make more then enough to pay for training. If you aren't getting the PPs then find bigger targets. The game isn't meant to make it so easy that you can just stand around while training. You actually have to work at it. Making the excuse that you have to stand around to push a button 200 times because it's just so hard to train while doing other things and it takes too long is lame. Levelling should be hard and it should take a long long time.
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The value of goods is based on what buyers are willing to pay and what sellers are willing to accept. Currently we have a static economy where the NPCs determine the price of those goods that they sell and buy.
For example. If Harn will pay 2,000 for a Q300 sword, then vendors will not sell these swords for any less - unless they are doing you a favor. Harn's willingness to pay this much puts a floor on the price of swords. Since he does not sell Q300's however, he does not place a ceiling on the price. Players are still at liberty to raise their prices. Last time I checked, the going PLAYER set price was about 10,000 for a q300 sabre. This price represents a balance between what vendors are willing to accept and what players are willing to pay. If Harn sold q300 swords for 8,000 then nobody in their right mind would pay any more than 8k for a sword.
Now say we had a fully dynamic economy. How would the NPC's know what price to buy and sell goods for? They would need to know what prices players have been buying and selling at. To do this, the NPC would need to be aware of all such transactions and base its price on that. But how would it do that?
Say you had it look at all transactions where items were traded for money (player to player). You could have it look at all these transactions and base its prices on these... but then players could intentionally make transactions with the intentions of driving the price up or down.... then suddenly buy or sell all their stuff in one shot and make a killing -- thus leaving the prices for these goods in an exaggerated state.
Say I drive the price of gold up to 500,000 tria per ore by BUYING MY OWN GOLD ORE from one of my ALTS or from another player account that I made for 500,000 each repeatedly. Harn sees these transactions and decides that based on the number of transactions, 500,000t must be the going price for gold. Once he does that, I take my guild house that is lined with gold ore, and sell it all to him in one shot at 500,000 per ore! Now I walk away will a huge stack of tria and leave behind Harn with his inflated prices. Likewise, I could drive the prices down so that he is selling gold for 1 tria, then jack it way up and sell all my gold.
To prevent this abuse you would need a market where the seller cannot chose the buyer. You put your merch up on the market and let buyers bid for your stuff. While it is still possible for people to buy and sell their own stuff at inflated prices, they are less likely to succeed because other players will get in between on both the buy and sell side. The fairness of this kind of market will improve with the size of the market.. but its still open to manipulation by those who can throw enough money at it to move the price.
Hope this help,
Rigwyn
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The number of professions you listed is still very limited, and doesn't cover many other cases (healers, farmers, artists, alchemists and so on). Right now professions aren't really balanced.
Now, about magic and using some spells over and over without loot. Doesn't new magic update promote that kind of behavior even more than before? Currently the only sensible way to train magic is to use spells from your current realm (using lower realms spells will significantly slow down your progress, and using several realms down will practically completely halt it). In many cases the only available spells in certain realm are either half broken (i.e. can't be used for hunting), or aren't even intended to be used for hunting. So players inevitably will be in situation where they will have to cast spells over and over without actually hunting anything, whether they want it or not. (I'm not even talking about situations where some realms have no spells altogether).
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Every way ought to have a decent combat spell at first level. Every realm ought to have useful spells. We are not there yet. Lots of things need to be done but there are not enough people, myself included, willing or able to get their hands dirty actually doing them. All this gnashing of teeth isn't too productive. I suppose it makes us feel better.
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I understand the manipulation of markets and how it works but that doesn't explain how it would make things worthless and all players would there by leave since they don't get anything for the goods the sell. Once the price goes down to a low amount no one will sell them, but then after a point the prices will go back up because there is a demand again for them. If all the players leave and never sell to npcs then the prices of all goods would skyrocket.
And to answer you about supply and demand. It doesn't entirely work the way you stated. What if Harn saw someone buying gold for 500k each and thought he was the biggest moron on the planet so ignored it. Or what if he looked around and noticed that no one else was charging that amount and figured these two were trying to "rig" the market. Even better what if he decided he hated the fact that the guy selling was ripping the other person off so he bought a bunch of gold and began advertising really loudly about the amount he would sell it for. Then he noticed, uh interesting, only a handful of people are buying and selling for that amount. They must be cheaters. And your entire reasoning completely missed the part of customer loyalty and choices in who they do business with. So these two are buying and selling for crazy prices they completely forget to notice that now all others are buying exclusively from Harn. Harn now has all the customers and is making a killing because he can now charge prices he wants too and everyone will stick with him. Especially since he was kind enough to keep prices lower while others were trying to rip people off.
I challenge your assertion about the sabre prices as well. Sabres sell for 10k each at 300q for just some merchants. Not all sell for that much. Hangatyr sells for 10 percent over npc price. I charge 10 percent below npc price for my swords. So for one 10k isn't the set price players sell them for. And two, even those prices are based off of npc prices. If the npc price for selling a sword went up the merchants would try and get more for the weapons. NPC prices are still important to the prices merchants sell for even if they are static. Players would never do business with you again if you sold them a sabre for 20k and they checked with an npc and could only get 6k for it from an npc.
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Gilrond you are missing the point. It might encourage it for those impatient enough who expect to level up 3 or 4 times a day. For me it doesn't. I hunt with fist of the volcano and am happy when it levels up whether it's once a day or I wait 3 or 4 days before it does. And that is if I even use the spell. I've gone up 7 levels 2 to 3 months. Now I could have focused on it more and done it much faster but I got involved in other things. Either way though, while it takes longer to train if you use spells that are lower realm then you currently are, you can still level while doing other things. You just need to realize it's gonna take you a very long time to do it.
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bilbous: All I was saying, that one can't assume that in all cases normal hunting alone is enough to train magic at the same time, at least at present.
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Hunting works just fine for levelling magic Gilrond you just need to realize you aren't going to go from 0 to 100 in each way in a month.
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While I fundamentally agree with what has already been said... any game where the same rules apply to every one the same is fair but not necessarily desirable for everyone. In the case of the in-game economy, this is a whole can of worms that can't be resolved overnight but it also limits the valid choices we have for choosing who our characters are and what we have to do to survive and train.
Should a hunter make less, as much or more hunting as a crafter makes crafting is certianly a question but at the moment a hunter can't even sustain his training or afford his equipment from the spoils gained from hunting. It seems every profession has had the same problem (besides mining) for so long everyone mines and crafts using metal now, so the only real market there is for crafted items is npcs and the values keep dropping there too.
Lets face it, there are severe limitations which bring about imbalance in this regard. Whatever happened to hunting and getting enough loot to not only pay for your training but to give you bragging rights once in a while? I recall getting nice drops from time to time, I use to hunt some mobs and get glyphs and other valuable things. Every profession should have its own advantages and its own economic support system, where is the balance? Why Fish? Why Hunt? Why Cook?
With the quest chain system being the way it is now, I've all but ceased doing any questing because finding teh start or next npc in a chain is nearly impossible and now with npcs running off, it makes it that much harder to pursue. Lets face it the development path ps is on has brought us to a point where crafting is becoming all there is and everyone is doing it because they have to...
As far as the addition of Chain Mail is concerned, I think its great and Plate would be nice too but I can't stop thinking how much a stone labyrinth where groups of fighters and whole guilds can band together to explore and fight impossible foes for untold riches... a place where one might find something really unusual or special that everyone can talk about and pool together to investigate... It would seem that there are many things that can be done to fix the economy but I miss the rp and the ability for my character to have a purpose and aspire to greatness. Lets face it, standing at the anvil for 10 hours a day can't be the best fun possible in ps...
...or is it?
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Hunting works just fine for levelling magic Gilrond you just need to realize you aren't going to go from 0 to 100 in each way in a month.
In some cases I suspect you won't shift a realm in a few months. I'm not talking about going from 1-100. General progress is very erratic because of missing spells, and normally you'll need to cover your expenses with something besides hunting. Though now situation is a bit better because of the higher prices on loot.
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I can't stop thinking how much a stone labyrinth where groups of fighters and whole guilds can band together to explore and fight impossible foes for untold riches... a place where one might find something really unusual or special that everyone can talk about and pool together to investigate... It would seem that there are many things that can be done to fix the economy but I miss the rp and the ability for my character to have a purpose and aspire to greatness. Lets face it, standing at the anvil for 10 hours a day can't be the best fun possible in ps...
...or is it?
I agree, having new places to explore would be great. But it doesn't look realistic so far.
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I hunted and trained with red way at the same time. And not only did I have more then enough to cover my training costs but I made a hefty profit as well. Not nearly as much compared to metallurgy but I still didn't have any concern about profits. Now if I had just stood there casting over and over I'd have run out of money. But I put my spell power up so i could take things out in 4 to 6 hits and if I picked the correct thing to hunt I made more then enough for training. And yes that was after the changes took place though before the annoying thing about magic resistance :P, makes it harder to hunt certain things unless you hunt in a group. But I recently hunted neotins, made 200k profit and levelled red way once. Now last I checked a level of magic doesn't cost 200k so I still make a good amount even after paying for training. Plus the PPs for neotins isn't bad either :)
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I agree Jotiles, the quest chains are a little silly. It was one thing when they were based off your factions, but now you have to do them in perfect order or never get the next quests. That's a little silly in my opinion and kind of a waste of time. I've heard plenty of complaints from new players about not being able to even start questing because they can't get npcs to talk with you.
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Look, the price of things in the real world is based on what people are willing to pay and what sellers are willing to sell for. That's a fact. ( unless you live somewhere where prices are forcibly fixed or dictated. )
If I try to sell apples for $400 each, you will simply find another seller who is offering a more reasonable price. Likewise, sellers have a limit on how much of a resource that can sell. Npcs don't. If you were to sell apples well below fair price, you would deplete your supply and not profit - possibly take a loss.
In my example with swords, I demonstrated the effects of having an NPC offer a fixed price on the buy or sell side regardless of supply and demand. if Harn started SELLING Q300 swords from his infinite stockpile for 5,000 tria each then crafters would not be able to sell for any more than that because Harn would be undercutting them.
The example I gave was simple for the sake of explaining the concept. Yes, you can add all sorts of logic to try and counter manipulation but you cannot eliminate it altogether. If you look at modern stock markets, you will see that there are people who's job it is to monitor the market for manipulation, to investigate and prosecute those who do so. Do you think Planeshift has the resources to do that? NO.
Also, What you mentioned about being suspicious of inflated prices is not that easy. To do that you need some point of reference. You could say that the npc should be wary of price changes in excess of %10 of the previous day's average .. but that would only lead to slower manipulation over the course of weeks or months... and smaller windfalls. It would also put the NPC out of line should the value of an item actually change that much. If steel mining was suddenly disabled due to a bug, and there was a strong demand for crafted weapons, the value of steel would go up and so too would the value of swords. If the NPC thought this was nonsense based on historical prices, he might be left in an exploitable state because his prices are not current.
If you give the NPC a FIXED supply of goods to sell, then players could deplete the NPC's reseve and then take over the market - charging any price the choose... that would be very bad.
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I hunted and trained with red way at the same time... And yes that was after the changes took place though before the annoying thing about magic resistance
You didn't do that for all ways from beginning after the change took place. And some are worse than others. RW is actually the easiest in this regard because it has usable offensive spells in all realms.
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To prevent this abuse you would need a market where the seller cannot chose the buyer.
What is lacking, Rigwyn is a finite currency. Tria are some sort of minted currency. There would therefore be a limited supply at any one time. When the server is brought up that finite amount of currency would be calculated and distributed to merchant npcs through some weighted equation. You could then sell goods to an npc at present market value until they ran out of money. They would then need to sell some goods before they could purchase more. The profit could be recognised as well in their tria totals.
It is tria that is being generated from nothing. Great inflation is happening in the present economy which can be witnessed at successive house auctions. Tria should be a known constant to any minister of finance. The present system has built in maga inflation by minting tria into worthlessness.
- Nova
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I agree Riwyn that the market will be manipulated. It's being done right now. As some of the ones who have spiked up prices of ores because they can still make a profit while smiths can't. You aren't going to get rid of it and you never will. Wanting to make a change shouldn't be shot down because the ideas you come up with might have problems. Of course they do and we'll have to work through them. What decisions should be based on is whether the changes will be better then the current system. You aren't even going to have a fairy tale economy that works perfect. But in my opinion adding supply and demand to npcs will be a major improvement over the mess the economy is now. Do you disagree?
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Okay so Gil the only way that would give you trouble is blue since the offensive spells just stink. But I just hunted ulbers with crystal way and levelled up. Will it take forever since the spell is low realm, uh yeah, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. Same thing for azure, and brown. Super slow progression if you hunt at the same time but it still can be done. You just better get used to levelling up once a week.
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Ooh good idea Nova.....a finite amt of currency. You can see what just printing more money does to the US economy. It would have the same effect on PS as well. Would be interesting to see what would happen if there was only a certain amount of physical currency to go around.
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/me wonders how you got azure way to a level where there was a useful combat spell.
Only way I can think of is to spam defensive wind or relaxing sleep. Sure defensive wind has an effect now but it is still a pain to keep casting and kind of a waste of mana to keep it up. Relaxing sleep is once every 5-10 minutes unless you have few mana to begin with. These spells do not compare with combat spells that you have to keep casting over and over to kill a critter. You get much more effective practice in these and it is not spammy. Freeze is a spammy spell because it takes a while for it to become useful after a successful cast. I can cast it three more times before the first effect wears off and it might be effective.
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Me, spam a spell???? :innocent: I would never do something like that. Other then azure, crystal, blue............but other then those I never did.
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A finite amount of currency sounds great until you look at the fact that the number of citizens isn't constant... What happens when a super rich barron stops playing or manipulates the systems supply of currency to change prices in their favour to buy and then again to sell? Or better yet we see a huge surge or decrease in the number of players... again the economy would have serious issues with maintaining the supply of currency in a way the entire economy of ps doesn't collapse. We can't compare ps economy to the real world because there are many factors ps doesn't consider that makes a real economy work.
We keep losing sight of the fact that ps is a game. Diversity and change in what is available, desired and valuable are needed to keep the economy rolling. Lack of diversity and other limitations in the environment dictate what people can or will do; and right now it dictates that people do what they are doing. There is no simple solutions and at this point bandaids will not only be inneffective in the long run, they will end up making matters much worse...
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A concise and level reply. You probably won't be around long, LOL!
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when will heavy Armour come in?
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"When it's done"™ — © 3DRealms
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right now it's planned to not do it for now. due to the heavy unbalance it would gather.