PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Aramara Meibi on June 20, 2012, 08:49:16 pm
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I've been toying with this idea for some time. Let me first get to the issue at hand and then explain why removing speech bubbles would be the necessary solution.
When RPing, using the /me and /my commands is great for describing character actions while at the same time enabling dialogue. Because there is no character limit on posts, this allows for elaborately detailed and well written posts, enhancing the level of immersion. BUT, the /me and /my commands have to be used at the very beginning of each post, which is fine, but after a while it starts to become clumsy as you have to do some linguistic gymnastics to make your post work. The sentence structure for each post automatically becomes Subject-Verb-Object, and that can get repetitive and clumsy.
What I wish for is more finesse with sentence structure, being able to imbed the /me and /my commands within the body of a post, even allowing for multiple uses of the commands within each post. A post such as:
The ring of steel striking steel can be heard reverberating through the sewers as /me raises her shield to block her enemy's battle axe.
will be rendered as:
The ring of steel striking steel can be heard reverberating through the sewers as Aramara raises her shield to block her enemy's battle axe.
You can see how this adds variety and flavor to the RP environment, but as it stands, any post that does not begin with a /me or /my command is automatically rendered as dialogue and shows up as a speech bubble. The bubbles themselves are blocky, opaque obstructions that I never pay any attention to anyways because they vanish before I can read them, and I have the chat window, which makes them unnecessary to begin with. Maybe they're an artifact left over from some long ago time before the chat window or something, but seriously, the only time I make use of them is to locate another player across vast distances when using /tells.
If they are deemed necessary by the community as a whole, then amend my wish to be having the /me and /my commands work as described above.
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That's something that also came to my mind after chaining some /me statements. Certainly each line beginning with a name tag makes it easier to keep track of the dialog/action/ mixed wall of text, and that's probably the reason for the restrictions here. Maybe a compromise could help where the name tag is first displayed in brackets, and thereafter you can place some narrative text, just as you would do with /me or /my. Maybe for the above example:
/narrate The ring of steel striking steel can be heard reverberating through the sewers as Aramara raises her shield to block her enemy's battle axe.
[Aramara] The ring of steel striking steel can be heard reverberating through the sewers as Aramara raises her shield to block her enemy's battle axe.
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agreed Boni, it could get confusing without some sort of notification of which post belongs to who. Though, I don't think such a /narrate command would be necessary if the /me and /my commands were allowed to be embedded within the bulk of a post. The tag at the beginning of each post would be an automatic function of the /me and /my command, or just automatic for any post made.
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If the code has always been made with the assumption that commands always have to start at the beginning of a line, it may be quite an effort to change the command line parser to search for commands in the whole line. And that may also have undesired side effects ... imagine you want to explain to someone who got stuck and can't unstick: "Try to type /die to escape through the Death Realm" ... I believe you wouldn't want the parser to find this command later in the input line and kill your own char.
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If the code has always been made with the assumption that commands always have to start at the beginning of a line, it may be quite an effort to change the command line parser to search for commands in the whole line. And that may also have undesired side effects ... imagine you want to explain to someone who got stuck and can't unstick: "Try to type /die to escape through the Death Realm" ... I believe you wouldn't want the parser to find this command later in the input line and kill your own char.
I agree, adding that imo the parser *must not* parse for command not stated at the beginning of the input line.
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I remember that a variable $target exists. Maybe one could make more variables available, like $self. That might be a solution.
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I remember that a variable $target exists. Maybe one could make more variables available, like $self. That might be a solution.
if one target himself the $target variable can work like the $self variable, I'm not 100% sure it works but if it does the solution is already in place
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Actually there is a way to write actions in that way in green letters from the system tab. You just have to use the /echo command and anything after that will appear in green letters. Example,
/echo The wind is blowing and two birds fly around.
Its not a well known command but it works. Its better if its used with moderation of course as it can describe happenings on the environment but still effective when you want to write things as in Aramara's example.
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Actually there is a way to write actions in that way in green letters from the system tab. You just have to use the /echo command and anything after that will appear in green letters.
As far as I have understood (and just tested it again), this is a purely local feature, like /testanim. No other player will see such a message, and thus it has no value for RP. Its purpose? Maybe to mark a section in your system log with a comment. :whistling:
Target variables are not quite important here, I think, as tab-completion of names makes typing fast as well. The problem of the request remains that every message in the main tab has to start with the players name, optionally followed by "'s" or "says:".
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The idea of commands working within the text doesn't really sound too useful to me. I'd still need to put quotes around the speech to separate it from actions as I now do, and I'd only be substituting something like, /me laughs, for, then she laughs, not a real time saver, besides having it come out as, Dannae laughs.
I do like the idea of having the ability to start with narrative.
Maybe it could be added as suggested by Bonifarzia like /nar when narrative is to be used at the beginning by spelling out the chars. name in brackets.
The ability to use this in the middle of speech is unnecessary because it would not negate having to enclose the speech within quotes to separate it and would read no differently. I suppose a /nar command could be made to color the narrative, but it would still require some way to tell when the narrative ends and speech begins again if it could be used in the middle of speech.
Off topic a little, even with my personal preference for shorter posts, I would still love the ability to negate the need to use quotes to separate speech from actions as I now do. I'm forever forgetting to put the quotes at the start or end or having to scroll back through the text to add when I've decided to insert an action within the text before posting. I don't believe there is a way to do that, unfortunately, since there would always need to be some kind of symbol or character to separate the two, so may as well remain quotes.
Examples of what I do now:
As one post I'd type using quotes:
/me steps closer to Caraick, "Hey, if it isn't my ol' menki friend" she then kicks Caraick in the shin, and winces, "Ow! Dammit... now you broke my toe!"
But still preferable to me than as four separate posts:
/me steps closer to Caraick
Hey, if it isn't my ol' menki friend
/me kicks Caraick in the shin, then winces
Ow! Dammit... now you broke my toe!
I'd be much happier with cut and paste ability so I can see all my text and edit or add quotes where necessary, but that's been discussed before as too difficult of a feature.
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As one post I'd type using quotes:
/me steps closer to Caraick, "Hey, if it isn't my ol' menki friend" she then kicks Caraick in the shin, and winces, "Ow! Dammit... now you broke my toe!"
But still preferable to me than as four separate posts:
/me steps closer to Caraick
Hey, if it isn't my ol' menki friend
/me kicks Caraick in the shin, then winces
Ow! Dammit... now you broke my toe!
That's my preferred way of using speech, too. For copy and paste, I think there are ways to add this with self compiled clients. Wasn't there a debate about inclusion in an official build?
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using quotes to denote dialogue is how I play as well using the /me and /my commands as they are, but I always have to start each post with such a command. Sometimes, just to break up the monotony, I'd love to begin a post with dialogue and follow it up with an action:
"Oh, hello Dannae," /me says as she turns to face the High Priestess.
Of course, I *could* do this now... but it'd show up as a speech bubble and in the chat box be rendered as
Aramara says: "Oh, hello Dannae," Aramara says as she turns to face the High Priestess.
which makes it look like my character is narrating her own actions out loud and referring to herself in the third person.
most people do break their dialogue and actions up into separate posts, which is how i used to play as well. But that creates a problem where you're never sure when that player is 'done'. That is why I've moved to the block or paragraph type posts, where I can describe all my actions and dialogue for my 'turn' in one block. You as the other player know that I'm not going to post again until all present have had a chance to respond.
copy and paste functions... selecting blocks of text to delete instead of one letter at a time... yes, there are many functions that are painfully missing from the chat box.
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copy and paste functions... selecting blocks of text to delete instead of one letter at a time... yes, there are many functions that are painfully missing from the chat box.
This point almost deserves a post of it's own. Yes, please. :thumbup:
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Sorry about continuing to derail the original topic, but at least I'm not alone here :sweatdrop:
most people do break their dialogue and actions up into separate posts, which is how i used to play as well. But that creates a problem where you're never sure when that player is 'done'. That is why I've moved to the block or paragraph type posts, where I can describe all my actions and dialogue for my 'turn' in one block. You as the other player know that I'm not going to post again until all present have had a chance to respond.
Not suggesting you or anyone change how they prefer to post, just tossing out ideas. One option I sometimes use is adding a series of dots ... at the end of a section when I post if I want to let others begin reading but also indicating my char. is not done speaking on that thought. This way offers the opportunity for others to interrupt too, but, such is life.
I understand long posts do have their good and bad points just like most everything, but as I said in a previous post, my personal preference is shorter. Smaller chunks are just easier for me to manage, especially since it's too hard to edit what is being written with no cut and paste and only one line visible, not to mention that often the times I've attempted this, I end up feeling like the moment has passed to do or say something by the time I'm ready to punch that enter key.
On the flip side, there are times when we want all our words and actions spelled out in one cohesive post with no interruptions like when there is a lot of description or a lot to say and it's occurring in a brief period of time where it would not make sense to break it up.
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Me being a player who writes blocks of text, and builds great walls and fortresses and towns and buildings and castles with them, the option that I would most prefer is being able to insert /me into the middle of the sentences, instead of always having to start with a /me or /my. Of course these options aren't really limiting, as the imagination is great and wild. However it just drags on me sometimes. Not a real complain, per se, simply how I feel.
as far as doing away with speech bubbles, a simple yes will suffice.
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I think I'd have to agree with Cairn, here. For simplicity and convenience's sake alone, I'd nix the speech bubbles entirely. As for the /me or /my insertion in the middle of a line: Yes, that would be convenient. No it's not necessary. We've managed pretty well with what we have right now, and while this would certainly make the combination of multiple lines into a single post easier, it's not necessary.
I do think that Dannae presents a valid (and funny) point in her example. That's something that you see come up lots of times, especially when it comes to RP-fighting. Aramara also makes a good point about this, here:
most people do break their dialogue and actions up into separate posts, which is how i used to play as well. But that creates a problem where you're never sure when that player is 'done'.
The uncertainty of whether to proceed with a RP or not can be hindering to the general flow of the storyline, itself. Whether or not the ability to tag in /me and /my into a sentence will ultimately fix this problem is uncertain, but I do feel confident that it would certainly help address the issue.
Nice example, Dannae ;) I'm not sure if that's taken verbatim from the logs or not, because it does seem like something that would happen to her. :D
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I'm not understanding how adding the ability to use /me, /my in the middle of speech would be of any benefit.
As it is now, I could type something like:
"blah blah blah blah" then chuckles, "blah blah blah blah", then her face blushes deeply.
and it would come out the same word for word in chat.
If the ability was added to insert a command in the middle, I could now type something like:
"blah blah blah blah" /me chuckles, "blah blah blah blah", /my face blushes deeply.
and it would come out in chat as,
"blah blah blah blah" Dannae chuckles, "blah blah blah blah", Dannae's face blushes deeply.
What would be the big improvement? Am I missing something? It seems even worse to me the way it would insert the char. name in those two sample instances.
Maybe something like a "/bow to target" might save typing a few words but still doesn't seem like it would be that useful in my opinion.
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It wouldn't be any more convenient, per se, simply offer a few new options for beginning and continuation purposes.
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Dannae, it wouldn't be necessary to use /me every time you refer to your character. I'm not suggesting we do away with pronouns.
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@ Aramara and Cairn: Yes, I understand it would not be required if such a thing were implemented.... the example was more of a way for me to think about how it would work... and didn't turn out well in that case. When I first read your idea, I thought, yeah, that seems like a good idea... but then, when I tried to think about how it would work in practice, well, nothing very helpful has come to mind. I can think of lots of ways a /nar option would be very useful and welcome. Perhaps you could show me an example of what you had in mind. How would you use any of the existing commands mid post that are easier or give a different option than any current method?
I'm not trying to be a pain about the whole thing, but I see so many that have agreed about a mid post command being helpful and I'm really curious what you all have in mind and how you would use it.
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Starting with non-directives, and adding as seen necessary.
I.E.
The water beneath Dannae's feet ripple as she sloshes about happily. Using her right hand, she waves to Aramara happily and then continues on swimming.
Action based, and more opportunities for less restriction. Of course, this does skew some of the /me and /my property bases, seeing as it is only logical for one to be in control of oneself.
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seeing as it is only logical for one to be in control of oneself.
Bah. Totally a matter of opinion.
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I agree with Dannae. A /narrate command would give you the ability to form whatever sentence structure you want. But you can just type your name whenever you need it to appear within the line. This way you don't run into the problem of searching for command code within dialogue.
As for speech bubbles, make them an option to turn on or off. If you're cooking, smithing, etc. and a lot of system messages are popping up then speech bubbles may be much more convenient to read.
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As for speech bubbles, make them an option to turn on or off. If you're cooking, smithing, etc. and a lot of system messages are popping up then speech bubbles may be much more convenient to read.
except that, when you're crafting and such, you typically have 3 or 4 inventory type windows open that clutter your screen, hindering your view of what's actually taking place in the world around you (where the speech bubbles are rendered).
It's starting to sound to me like the /nar command would be the best way to go about solving the issue addressed in the original post.
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As for speech bubbles, make them an option to turn on or off. If you're cooking, smithing, etc. and a lot of system messages are popping up then speech bubbles may be much more convenient to read.
except that, when you're crafting and such, you typically have 3 or 4 inventory type windows open that clutter your screen, hindering your view of what's actually taking place in the world around you (where the speech bubbles are rendered).
Two, usually. And I have a big monitor :P
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As far as adding an action to a line of narration I tend to put it in angle brackets. Inelegant but it works.
Like this:
No. You can't have it back <Sticks out his tongue> nyah, nyah, na-nyah-yah.
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That's one way of doing things. I'd sooner just use the /me command to dictate "/me says" or something like that, just so that there's no action lines being placed in speech bubbles.
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what would the /narrate command detail?
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I'm a tad confused...how long do you all play this game by now?
Disable chat buddles: In game options (<o>-key) -> Interface - Advanced -> Chat bubbles -> Enable Chat bubbles (or if you like it better just disable the those chatbubble you want bellow there)
The idea of allowing arbitory player text not starting with /me or /my is around also already for a very long time. But it has a serve disadvantage that must be solved somehow to make it even possible. The coloring of the chat window as you see it is done on the client (If the client sees your name in one of the chat lines it colors it). The server only sends pure text lines. Now to the problem...if you allow /me anywhere inside a chat line no player around is able to tell who actually worte that line. Example
>The whole room is silent, almost everyones attention focused on the cute little cub except Dannae, /me and Aramara who watch Cairn pick his nose with pleasure.<
For everyone around only the own name will get highlighted...and it wil be impossible for anyone around to say who of those four mentioned in that line actually wrote it (Of course this is even worse if you allow lines completely without a /me at all). So Bonifarzia's /narrate suggestion is really the only way to go about it and prevent misuse at the same time. (And for GMs such a command already exists: /impersonate. It just doesn't put the players name in front yet. But changing it to always put the name of player in front if executed by a player is no big deal at all)
Copy and paste: Yes, there is some code for that already. No, it doesn't work as you except it. And no, you can't select text. And it's only available on linux so far I think. (Not that this is a real issue...the spellchecker isn't available for windows either). But to make it really work it would require a lot of changes to the basic text widgets. It's not really hard but simply a lot of work probably nobody is willing to do.
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It is astounding how long this discussion has become.
I wonder if we could just do the /narrate functionality with a simple convention: /me - Description of whatever you want. Do you really need the brackets around your name to use this style?
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I wonder if we could just do the /narrate functionality with a simple convention: /me - Description of whatever you want.
/me - apples fall out of the tree and bonk off my head
or
/me : the waves lap at my toes, just before the unseen breaker pummels me into the sand
Haha... works for me! ::|
Still does nothing to keep the text out of the speech bubbles, but like Aramara... I never even read those and only have used them as a visual que at times to locate someone.
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Still does nothing to keep the text out of the speech bubbles, but like Aramara... I never even read those and only have used them as a visual que at times to locate someone.
and there you have it... if i'm talking to you through /tells it's most likely a pretense for tracking you down ;D
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And honestly, there are ways around it, it's not really what works best or not, just simple preference.
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That's something that also came to my mind after chaining some /me statements. Certainly each line beginning with a name tag makes it easier to keep track of the dialog/action/ mixed wall of text, and that's probably the reason for the restrictions here. Maybe a compromise could help where the name tag is first displayed in brackets, and thereafter you can place some narrative text, just as you would do with /me or /my. Maybe for the above example:
/narrate The ring of steel striking steel can be heard reverberating through the sewers as Aramara raises her shield to block her enemy's battle axe.
[Aramara] The ring of steel striking steel can be heard reverberating through the sewers as Aramara raises her shield to block her enemy's battle axe.
I actually like this idea more than any of the other ideas posted. +1 and hope the Big T sees it
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I do think that Dannae presents a valid (and funny) point in her example. That's something that you see come up lots of times, especially when it comes to RP-fighting. Aramara also makes a good point about this, here:
most people do break their dialogue and actions up into separate posts, which is how i used to play as well. But that creates a problem where you're never sure when that player is 'done'.
The uncertainty of whether to proceed with a RP or not can be hindering to the general flow of the storyline, itself. Whether or not the ability to tag in /me and /my into a sentence will ultimately fix this problem is uncertain, but I do feel confident that it would certainly help address the issue.
Maybe if you want to split your comment up put at the end of your comment in brackets [to be continued] or [tbc].
I like Bonifarzia's idea on the /narative.
This is waaaay off topic but, with RP what I find holds me back and is a main reason why most of the time I don't really enjoy RPing is the chat tab in general. It's very annoying and basic, the selecting words and copy/paste would be beneficial. But what about the option for RPers to have the whole of the bottom screen the box to type your comment (like http://webchat.freenode.net/) and have the chat tab above it to the left or right of the screen. The availability to have 2 or 3 or 4 or however many lines, so your text will pop down to the next line until you reach your chosen cap and then your text starts to disappear off the side. (I hope that made sense).