PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Aramara Meibi on June 24, 2012, 07:58:47 am
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swinging a pick and lugging around ore should increase strength yeah?
crafting and designing should boost the intellect.
tie physical stats to physical skills and mental stats to mental skills so that skill progression boosts your stats.
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this is an interesting idea albeit it poses many challenges from a game balance point of view
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challenges are meant to be overcome.
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in terms of combat skills, weapons that require speed and agility, as in melee, knives and daggers, etc. can increase agility, but maybe sacrifice stamina. Heavier weaponry can increase strength but at a loss of agility. balance can be achieved this way.
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I don't know how detailed your reasoning about this is, but I have tried several times to work out such a system for all skills, and it really is a difficult thing to get both at the same time, detailed balance and somewhat intuitive rules. Give me a poke if you like to discuss about this and merge some ideas. Maybe my first notes on the wish list (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37524.0) are interesting to read, if you have not already done so.
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Well the way Morrowind did it (and I'm not saying we should copy it, just noting a way this problem has been addressed in the past) was that every skill had a governing attribute, and how successful an action was depended on some weighted average of the skill level and its governing attribute. So if I'm making a potion, my chance of success and the potency of the potion depends on both my alchemy skill and its governing attribute, intelligence.
Combat was a little different. When attacking, the chance to hit the target was some average of the player's weapon skill and agility attribute, and the damage dealt was determined by the player's weapon skill and strength attribute.
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Well the way Morrowind did it (and I'm not saying we should copy it, just noting a way this problem has been addressed in the past) was that every skill had a governing attribute, and how successful an action was depended on some weighted average of the skill level and its governing attribute. So if I'm making a potion, my chance of success and the potency of the potion depends on both my alchemy skill and its governing attribute, intelligence.
Combat was a little different. When attacking, the chance to hit the target was some average of the player's weapon skill and agility attribute, and the damage dealt was determined by the player's weapon skill and strength attribute.
from what i understand, the magic ways are all tied to a mental stat (int, cha, wis) in this way. I agree that this system could be applied to other skills as well.
i hate to always toot DFs horn, but they have such a system, albeit their attribute system is much more complex than 6 stats.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Attributes#Skills_by_Associated_Attributes
boni, i'm only brainstorming here, kicking around ideas. i haven't given it any thoroughly detailed thought, but if it's a project you might wanna reboot i'd love to take a look at what you have and be involved in whatever capacity i can lend myself.
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We just should be clear about the topic here. The connection between way skills and primary attributes is a very different, rather simple story. I am interested with the way stats are developed, not how they will be used. The motivation should be that we don't have a "meaningful" way to train stats in PlaneShift, but we can benefit from them quite nicely in various ways.
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yes, the focus here is the development of stats through skills progression. but i think that the stats that a skill develops should be part of the overall formula when using that skill.
if agility were tied to knives and daggers, for instance, every level in that skill would advance your agility stat. When using knives and daggers in combat, the agility stat would be part of the formula to decide how successful a hit you can score. For balancing purposes we can also have associated skills and stats that hinder each other, a knife fighter would sacrifice his endurance or strength stat for the increased agility.
The end result would be the elimination of stat trainers and a system where it's near impossible to max out all stats.
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I've long been a proponent of a combat system that utilizes skill and stat progression independent or semi-independent of a trainer-based system. I also think that Aramara's point regarding the "stat-sacrificing" has some merit to it. Some would argue that one of Planeshift's greatest strengths is that characters are entirely unrestricted, as far as training whatever skills they'd like to goes. However, I could see this concept tying in very effectively with the already-proposed usage of the faction/quest system to prevent users from gaining unreasonably high levels in skills that completely oppose each other. Dark and Crystal Way, for instance.
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From a new player perspective, getting better at something requires a lot of effort. For example, it took me several days of playing for a few hours at a time to mine enough to go from level 3 to level 4. It feels like I can only focus on one thing for improvement. So, if they were tied together somewhat, imagine that increasing strength so I could carry more ore up to a max limit. In this example, let's say I was mining, and my strength stat was at 70, I'm a Dermorian female, so perhaps I can get up to 100 strength if I mine enough. One strategy might be to add some weighted value of the experience gained mining to the strength stat. I still level up faster by training strength specifically, but I can gain some value in strength by doing other things as well. Once I hit some threshold (100 in this example) I don't get any further value unless I train in Body Development.
For Magic, any spell I cast, the experience gained gets some weighted value applied to the appropriate stat up to a certain initial value. For example, once I've progressed to a new realm in magic, I don't get any better at Will without specifically training that stat.
For combat, I gain agility in much the same way until I reach some threshold of agility, maybe 100 for Dermorian females.
To throw an extra twist, males and females of different races might ought to have different weighted values. Kran are bigger and probably stronger than the human/elf species as an example.
This would help newer players gain enough stats to be successful more often sooner and be less frustrated at the slow pace of their progression. I have to kill rats for more than an hour to generate enough PP to level up on strength currently, but this way it would happen a bit more naturally until I reached some threshold.
I hope that is a clear, if not, ask and I'll try to explain it again.
Estaga
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I like estaga's idea. Maybe it could be taken a bit further even. Right now the problem that everyone seems to have with stat training is that there is no practice component to it. If you have the money and the PPs you can go from 50 to 400 strength in minutes.
What if, every time you raised a skill level, you get that level numbers worth of PPs toward its governing stat. So if I raise my mining from level 19 to level 20, I get 20 PPs toward strength that I now don't have to pay for. This way, someone who uses strength-related skills a lot can see a gradual increase in their strength over time, or at the very least get a discount next time they go to train it. You could still pay a trainer to rank up a few levels, but you could save PPs and money by actually using the stat within the game.
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The end result would be the elimination of stat trainers and a system where it's near impossible to max out all stats.
Yes, that was my intention, and I think the formalism described in the above link works nice in the sense that the mathematics are simple, there are no ugly thresholds and discontinuities, and reaching high stats is arbitrarily challenging. It leaves room for specialization, progression is much faster at the beginning than later on, and there would be no need for a wipe, as the stats are a function of the current skills (and the race), not a dynamic result of the full training history.
The real difficulty is to be very specific with the connections between all stats and skills. Should mining have an affinity for strength? Sure. And for endurance? Ermm, yes. And what about will? Oh, well...
How do you want to balance it with other job skills, for example fishing? Can you design a graph such that each of the six stats has a symmetric, fair set of skills associated? Are the affinities balanced for certain important subsets of skills, for instance all combat skills and magic ways? That's what I mean with "difficult" here.
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Here is another possible approach: what if each stat were assigned some skills, then if you wanted to train that stat, you would pay for it, but instead of getting that level you would then go perform that skill. For example, if I wanted to train strength, I could buy some strength training. I could also buy some mining training. Then for practice, when I was mining, I would get experience in both strength an mining. If I neglected to buy the strength training, then I would only get experience in mining. This seems like a reasonable enough compromise.
Now for the difficult part... that graph of relatively evenly distributed skills which affect a particular stat. I would suggest at first pass (maybe the only pass?) that a skill may only affect a single stat. So casting spells for magic might only ever affect one of the stats that belong with that way. Combat only affects agility. Mining focuses on strength, cooking on intelligence, leatherwork on endurance... and so on. Not that I got those right, but just for example.
What I'm hoping is that "difficult" is not a reason for not doing it. If it doesn't get done, hopefully there is another better reason (not sure exactly, but technical reasons, speed considerations, space considerations for the extra memory needed or db, too many db hits, I don't know.... maybe it just doesn't make sense). :-)
Estaga
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The real difficulty is to be very specific with the connections between all stats and skills. Should mining have an affinity for strength? Sure. And for endurance? Ermm, yes. And what about will? Oh, well...
I think most skills would have an agreed upon "primary" attribute. But if you choose to use the system I proposed earlier and you really feel that a skill fits into two stats equally well (ie you think mining skill is equally affected by strength and endurance) then when you rank up mining you can simply split the PPs equally between the two skills.
As far as balance, I don't think this system would affect balance in too much of a negative way, since every skill would grant the same amount of PPs when ranked up. The only difference between them is which stat gets the benefit. And, sure, it's possible that strength and endurance might have 10 skills each while charisma has like 3 or 4, but if you think about it, most of the strength/endurance skills will be different kinds of weapons/armor, and in my experience people don't usually bother training a bunch of different weapon types, so they'll really only benefit from 3 or 4 out of the 10 anyway.
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absolutely estaga, let's not let the difficulty of a task deter us. can it be done? yes. should it be done? that's what's up for debate.
'it shouldn't be done because it'd be hard to do' is, in my opinion, an unacceptable answer for that question.
'it shouldn't be done because i love the system how it is and being able to max out all stats and skills and become a super mega demigod with no weaknesses nor negative consequences' is an acceptable answer.
for balance I think what we should be aiming for is a system where different skill sets are needed to compliment each other, no one character can become all powerful, and every skill has its drawbacks, benefits, and limitations.
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If your plan is to just add the "practice" aspect to the usual way stats are trained, then doing it via practice functions of the skills may be technically easier than through more generic things (e.g. running around for endurance). In that case the connections btw. skills and stats indeed don't have a big impact. It may get significantly more time consuming to train a new character, but there will remain a population of chars with all stats maxed out.
On the other hand if your plan is to define stats as derived quantities, where only developing a character with a matching set of skills allows you to specialize and reach an extraordinary value in one of the stats, then balance gets much more important. I don't say the difficulty is a reason to give up about it. It just needs some thought. Maybe this is something that could be discussed and sophisticated in the style of a skunkworks project. But then that still needs a little support from the rules and engine departments.
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My suggestion was simply to add the ability to practice stats by training skills, thus tying stats to skill progression (as the original post was suggesting, ie the example of progressing your strength stat when mining). I wasn't saying that we should remove the old way of raising stats, just provide this alternative.
As for the issue of stat-capping or maxing out everything, I think that's a completely separate discussion. It's something that's been tossed back and forth a number of times.
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I'm not sure I have a plan. I am just brainstorming ideas to see how they might work to achieve the end result of doing thing 'A' affects stat 'B' (mining -> strength as has been the example so far). I am pretty interested in this topic becoming a feature in the game, I think it makes a bunch of sense. It allows me to play my character in a way that makes the story of her development (if you will) more important that trying to figure out which stat to raise. If she needs to make money, she mines and sells the ore. In time she becomes stronger and carry more of that ore to market. If she studies in the library or with magic maybe she becomes more intelligent or develops more charisma. Maybe through meditation on one of the magic ways she becomes more focused so her will stat improves. I want to play a role and focus on that rather than on leveling up.
Estaga
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My suggestion was simply to add the ability to practice stats by training skills, thus tying stats to skill progression (as the original post was suggesting, ie the example of progressing your strength stat when mining). I wasn't saying that we should remove the old way of raising stats, just provide this alternative.
I think there should be only one way to raise stats and if stats will be linked to skill training the current way should be removed.
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My suggestion was simply to add the ability to practice stats by training skills, thus tying stats to skill progression (as the original post was suggesting, ie the example of progressing your strength stat when mining). I wasn't saying that we should remove the old way of raising stats, just provide this alternative.
I think there should be only one way to raise stats and if stats will be linked to skill training the current way should be removed.
This would add a lot of reality to the character development. +++
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Hello, I like to see this kind of discussion is still present. Some time ago I started a thread with a similar, but not equal discussion, this is the link: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=40815.msg458252#msg458252 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=40815.msg458252#msg458252)
Why I put this link here? Because when I wrote that thread I had in mind to develop this discussion in 2 steps, and that was the first one. Seeing that people were not much interested I gave up, but now my hopes have been awaken by this thread. I hope you find my post a starting point to merge the skill training/stat gaining discussion with a character develop/creation.
Thanks people! :) :) :) :) :)
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I don't think making stats derived quantities is a good idea. It's easy to imagine a very strong person who has no mining experience or has never battled with an axe. Or a very intelligent person with no Brown Way or Blue Way knowledge. So, deriving a character's stats from his/her/kra skills doesn't make a lot of sense.
However, it is difficult to imagine a very weak person who is skilled at mining or axe fighting, or a stupid person who is skilled in Brown or Blue Way magic. So in this sense skills should be governed by stats, not the other way around.
The way Morrowind handled this (sorry to go back to that again, but it's one of my favorite games of all time) was to make it impossible to train a skill beyond the level of its governing attribute (stat). So if your axe skill and strength are both 70, you would have to raise your strength to 71 before you could train your axe skill to 71.
I think a similar system would work well in PlaneShift. It would prevent unrealistic character builds (like a really stupid mage or a really weak axe fighter).
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[...omissis...]
The way Morrowind handled this (sorry to go back to that again, but it's one of my favorite games of all time) was to make it impossible to train a skill beyond the level of its governing attribute (stat). So if your axe skill and strength are both 70, you would have to raise your strength to 71 before you could train your axe skill to 71.
I think a similar system would work well in PlaneShift. It would prevent unrealistic character builds (like a really stupid mage or a really weak axe fighter).
Ok, but the question is: how do you rise your strength to 71?
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I don't think making stats derived quantities is a good idea. It's easy to imagine a very strong person who has no mining experience or has never battled with an axe. Or a very intelligent person with no Brown Way or Blue Way knowledge. So, deriving a character's stats from his/her/kra skills doesn't make a lot of sense.
i can see what you're getting at, but I think your point is best reflected in the base or starting stats. A character can start out strong sure, but must maintain and build upon their strength somehow. You don't get stronger by not doing anything. But swinging a pick and lugging around ore, or swinging a battleaxe and lugging around heavy armor should increase your strength stat.
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Right. I wholeheartedly agree that raising your mining and axe skills should help you raise your strength. And in the process of learning about Blue and Brown Way magic one would become more intelligent. And so on, and so forth.
But if stats become derived quantities based on skills, then the only way to get stronger would be to mine ores, swing axes, or wear heavy armor. That's fine. But what about when you start applying that to other stats? In order to be a very intelligent character, you would have to raise your Blue and Brown Way skills. A person who wants high charisma would have to raise Crystal Way, Dark Way, and empathy.
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There can be other ways to raise a stat other than skills, for example performing an action like running may improve the endurance.
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Right. There SHOULD be other ways of raising stats. Thus they wouldn't be derived quantities.
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Right. I wholeheartedly agree that raising your mining and axe skills should help you raise your strength. And in the process of learning about Blue and Brown Way magic one would become more intelligent. And so on, and so forth.
But if stats become derived quantities based on skills, then the only way to get stronger would be to mine ores, swing axes, or wear heavy armor. That's fine. But what about when you start applying that to other stats? In order to be a very intelligent character, you would have to raise your Blue and Brown Way skills. A person who wants high charisma would have to raise Crystal Way, Dark Way, and empathy.
well, you're limiting your example to an extremely small sample of skills. this would apply to ALL skills, even those not yet developed. Hammering away at a forge all day could also improve strength or endurance, making alchemical solutions would increase int, etc. Even some combat skills could increase mental stats, ie. ranged would utilize will (i'm using will as the closest attribute to focus, which is necessary for an archer). You'd be able to build up your stats evenly across the board by choosing a combination of skills to develop.
but I think the point here is to limit a players ability to be maxed out across the board. I know we're going for an open character development system, and I think we can retain it this way, but a system in which every character eventually becomes a one man army is a faulty system for an RPG. Maybe i'm wrong, but I feel that forming a party of adventurers, each with their own unique skillset and attributes so that each player fulfills a crucial role within the party, is like the whole point of this genre of gaming. Cooperation, collaboration, team work, problem solving skills, being able to use the mechanics creatively to gain an advantage, etc. etc. That's what makes role playing fun.
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but I think the point here is to limit a players ability to be maxed out across the board.
I didn't realize that was the point. And even so, I don't think making stats a derived quantity is the way to go about it. All it does is encourage people to try to max their skills to get the highest stats they can.
Maybe i'm wrong, but I feel that forming a party of adventurers, each with their own unique skillset and attributes so that each player fulfills a crucial role within the party, is like the whole point of this genre of gaming. Cooperation, collaboration, team work, problem solving skills, being able to use the mechanics creatively to gain an advantage, etc. etc. That's what makes role playing fun.
You're right about this. Unfortunately PlaneShift doesn't have much in terms of teamwork with regards to stats and skills though.
Having stats as derived quantities would probably be detrimental to this goal, as players would be encouraged to train skills outside of their original "class" solely for the stat bump.
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From my point of view, tman's concerns are justified and important here. That's why I emphasized that good connections are needed for a system like the one i suggested. There a character who just trains as many skills as possible gains a slightly higher average of all six attributes, while specializing to a few "matching" skills raises some attributes much more quickly. Training other skills later can again average out your stats and destroy your specialized affinity. In that sense, it is important to provide enough different ways to raise a given set of stats and still keep it consistent. tman came up with the term "classes", and we really should avoid a system that leads to just two or three cookie cutter schemes.
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what about thinking a handful of way to train stats outside skills training?
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tman came up with the term "classes", and we really should avoid a system that leads to just two or three cookie cutter schemes.
I use the term "class" loosely to mean the set of skills that a given character sees as important to him/her/kra. For example, I have a character who trains in light armor, sword, and knives/daggers, and who also does some mining and blade making to pay the bills. I have another character who trains in Dark and Red Way magic and is skilled in alchemy and herbalism. He has never picked up a sword or a pickaxe in his life. I don't mean that a player should have to choose a class during character creation, but I think players should have a general idea of which skills fit the character and which don't. That's what I mean by "class."
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tman came up with the term "classes", and we really should avoid a system that leads to just two or three cookie cutter schemes.
I use the term "class" loosely to mean the set of skills that a given character sees as important to him/her/kra. For example, I have a character who trains in light armor, sword, and knives/daggers, and who also does some mining and blade making to pay the bills. I have another character who trains in Dark and Red Way magic and is skilled in alchemy and herbalism. He has never picked up a sword or a pickaxe in his life. I don't mean that a player should have to choose a class during character creation, but I think players should have a general idea of which skills fit the character and which don't. That's what I mean by "class."
yes, i do believe the system is designed for players to act in this fashion. But, as a fault, it allows for a player to choose as their class 'master of the universe'.