PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Herihi on July 16, 2012, 06:54:50 am
-
I just wanted to add a new thread in here and talk about all the work Tazen is doing as a GM to make the game more fun. If you support the events he runs and want more to happen post it here so Tazen and the others can see what a great job he is doing. He just ran a wedding where players asked him to help out and be the priest. He did an amazing job and made the RP far better then it would have. What do all of you other players think about it?
-
I loved the casino events I was fortunate enough to catch.
I would also like to take this opportunity to remind the active roleplayers both that you don't have to be a GM to run a great event, and that you could easily miss out on a great event because you learned that it isn't a GM one.
-
I agree, player events are really cool. But there have been times I wished we could do a little bit more mechanics wise and that would be worked out with a GM helping to enrich the game play.
-
aw Tazen you're the best, i did say i'd tell Talad. ;)
i agree that GM involvement in player-run RPs has enormous fun potential! i must have missed those casino events, but this thread is a good start letting people know - will future events be on the calendar before they're actually run? or are they only impromptu?
-
The ones Tazen runs can be both. He does ones almost every day that are done when players ask for that day, but he has also scheduled them as well.
-
Yeah, Tazen's events are lots of fun! :thumbup: He's a definitely a Player's GM. I got a kick out of that ulber-hide slide Tazen and Herihi put together a short while back. :lol:
-
I've had great fun with his events, both when I've been lucky enough to be involved in the planning to some degree and when I've just stumbled into them. Main thing is that he's approachable and you can ask him to join in with things. He's also helped out with a couple of events I've run myself and given them that extra edge.
Now he just needs to move to a timezone that lets me take part in more of them! :(
-
So that people are aware there are rules that GMs have to follow just like there are rules that players have to follow. One of those rules is that GMs are not allowed to be involved with player run events. The current rule, as stated in the GM Orientation guide re player events reads as follows.
Player-made Events
Players are allowed to organize events on their own, like duels, hunting sessions or even more complex stories they can role-play. GMs should not interfere with those events apart from the usual moderating work. In no case is a GM allowed to provide prizes for events created by players, or use GM command functions to help the set-up or development of the event.
This is done to avoid interfering with the PlaneShift world, to avoid unfair concessions to one player vs. another, and to have GMs dedicate time to running official events.
Now Talad and I have discussed one exception to the above rule. For larger player events, such as the Masquerade Ball, held at the end of last year, where the event is advertised on the event calendar, the event is open to all players and there are no conflicts with settings, then GMs can get approval to offer support for the event.
-
What is the reasoning for the rule that a GM cannot get involved at all in player run RP?
-
Herihi,
Guess you missed the line that answers your question
"This is done to avoid interfering with the PlaneShift world, to avoid unfair concessions to one player vs. another, and to have GMs dedicate time to running official events."
To expand on this GMs have to be very careful about giving the impression that they are playing favorites between the player base. If a GM gets involved in PLayer A's RP but for what ever reason doesn't have time to get involved in Player B's RP that can be perceived as a GM playing favorites, which can turn people off and lead to people leaving the game and posting bad reviews all over the place. Also GMs have to play the role of referees and are expected to enforce rules on all players equally. Again if GMs are perceived as having favorites then that can affect how other players view the punishments that are handed out, or not handed out.
In the case of the wedding I have to wonder how many players missed out on RP opportunities leading up to the wedding and at the wedding because a GM provided things that in other cases have been provided by player characters. For example it would seem player character cooks missed out on the chance to provide food for the wedding. A player character priest/priestess missed out on getting to preform a wedding. Maybe a player character bard missed on performing at the wedding and the RP leading up to the wedding in getting hired or writing the music to be performed. It can cut both ways and maybe without a GM involvement there might have been more RP for more people, and isn't that what the game is suppose to be about is RP for the players?
-
Hmm but does that apply to any GM interaction at all or just events? Are GMs not allowed to go into game at all then other then official GM events?
-
GMs can bring their guard alts into game when they want to. Although GMs shouldn't bring in their guard alts into game just because a player has asked. If a player asks for a guard and the GM isn't busy with other duties then they can bring their guard in. Of course the guard has to maintain settings. Outside of the guard alt the only other interaction GMs can have with players outside of official events is they can do impersonations of NPCs or sort of mood setting like doing an impersonation like "A warm breeze blows across the lake that <player name> is standing next to. As far as player characters are concerned there is no such thing as a GM so really players shouldn't be having interactions with GMs as the GM character, unless there is a major problem going on that needs to be dealt with quickly, ie faster action is needed than it takes for the GM to get their guard alt in to deal with the issue in an IC manner.
If GMs want to have more casual interaction with players then they always have the option to run a player character but GMs are suppose to keep the ID of any player characters they run secret so in theory players shouldn't know that the person they are talking to is an alt of a GM.
-
Sarva, thanks for your responses, which make very valid points about GM responsibilities and equal and fair treatment of players. i uphold the reasoning and would not want to see any GM inadvertently give PS a bad name.
so let me just add concerning GM duties that i have not known Tazen to be slow to attend to petitions, in-game help, technical problems and/or bug fixes - i see this when i am in game - and maybe i speak especially for the GMT +8 and surrounding time zones - unless i could catch Venalan on, i used to have to wait days for petition replies. if, in addition to fulfilling these first duties of a GM, a GM's role in player-run RPs does not extend beyond moderating and impersonating NPCs, then i take it there should be no objection to his taking part. dare i say it should be encouraged, if he is willing?
certainly it is ideal for RP if players fill all the roles needed in any RP, but maybe like me some of us have been in-game when there are only a handful of RPers on :) or maybe like me some of us feel that RP could be just that much richer if the settings we're trying to play by - guards, octarchy, religions, for instance - could give us some 'play-back' too. to return to the original topic, i think Tazen tries to do some of this for the game, without bias. please don't penalise him for it; he is doing PS credit, just as the rest of you are by taking your roles seriously. we do appreciate it.
-
I agree with what Eardstapa said. I don't know Tazen, but as it sounds he is doing something good for PS.
Sarva, I also understand that point about GM's and favorites. But in my opinion, I think that GM's helping out in events created by player can add to the game. We just don't have the ressources a GM has. For example we can't get our hands at certain objects like a stall for selling stuff. And there are a lot of things we have to work for to get so the RP has some actual objects. Like some locked box or so.
I was kinda surprised when I did some quests and just looked for fun if there is actually a model or if it is just a "bag". I think there are many objects which look nice but are never used as RP items because they are quest objects and needed for finishing a quest. And you can't get your hands on them unless you don't finish that quest.
I am not saying you should give one object a person and another doesn't get one, that would be favorism as you said it. But maybe make it accessible in general so that we don't especially need a GM for that?
-
Herihi,
Guess you missed the line that answers your question
"This is done to avoid interfering with the PlaneShift world, to avoid unfair concessions to one player vs. another, and to have GMs dedicate time to running official events."
To expand on this GMs have to be very careful about giving the impression that they are playing favorites between the player base. If a GM gets involved in PLayer A's RP but for what ever reason doesn't have time to get involved in Player B's RP that can be perceived as a GM playing favorites, which can turn people off and lead to people leaving the game and posting bad reviews all over the place. Also GMs have to play the role of referees and are expected to enforce rules on all players equally. Again if GMs are perceived as having favorites then that can affect how other players view the punishments that are handed out, or not handed out.
In the case of the wedding I have to wonder how many players missed out on RP opportunities leading up to the wedding and at the wedding because a GM provided things that in other cases have been provided by player characters. For example it would seem player character cooks missed out on the chance to provide food for the wedding. A player character priest/priestess missed out on getting to preform a wedding. Maybe a player character bard missed on performing at the wedding and the RP leading up to the wedding in getting hired or writing the music to be performed. It can cut both ways and maybe without a GM involvement there might have been more RP for more people, and isn't that what the game is suppose to be about is RP for the players?
Sarva with all due respect I think you missed a point: players are supposed to do their own RP and their own game but without a bit of effort from the GMs the NPC are perceived like useless in-game objects, automatic item distributors and the PS world is less alive than it should be. Also players are not supposed to play the part of NPC in theory.
Of course there's no need to reward the players with fancy item, a cool RP is a good reward in my opinion.
Aside from that I say that most of the GM are not in my timezone and I missed so many casual events which were not planned (posted in the calendar) in advance; I don't complain for that and I think other players should not do that as well when the GM try to do their best when they do.
Of course I know GMs have many responsibilities and limited time like everyone else but GMs willing and available to make PS a living world should not be forbidden to do so.
-
Haha, another discussion about the role of GMs in RPs...same procedure as every year.
OMG...we can't RP without the help of GMs. - We need to uphold a standard...can't get involved in player RPs. - GM events are the only RP that is fun - GM involvement sucks.
Can't link to all those previous topics on that as most got deleted pretty quickly again.
GMs are humans and make mistakes. Players only want fun and don't consider the consequences of their wishes. GM favoritism is a real issue and led to countless arguments in the past. And I can understand that with the stupid new quest chains that depend on finishing quests it's even harder for players to get some RP props. But that the GM rules suck is nothing new at all...neither is that players will always want more advantages themselves then they already got (The GM rules are already far less strict on the topic of GM involvement than they used to be) Like this the whole discussion won't lead anywhere, nor does celebrating single GMs because they appear act more along the line of what you think is right. (Sorry, Tazen...not aimed at you but in general). If you are really serious about this discussion why had nobody of you asked for a complete set of GM rules yet? Only with those you can start to think about what could be improved. But no...it's more like "But it should be like this...so do it." (Though I'm of course aware that even if you ask for a ruleset you won't get it...crappy PS secretiveness. But then you showed at least you are willing to put some serious thought in this and not just "It sucks right now so make it better")
-
On the subject of items that players would like to have to support RP's. The devs, not the GMs decide what items can be released for players to have. There are some items, like the kiosk and tents which can be used in game but not released for players to have. As an example of how the GMs try to help support player events like the monthly markets we now have basic sales areas set up in each city with tables, tents and kiosks. Since these are advertised events we can go ahead and set these up and make those items available for the markets. But like I said there are items that GMs can't give to players as rewards or sell via GM merchants since the devs haven't released those items for players to have.
Also remember GMs run events like the engraving events where players can have items customized with special names and descriptions (within limits since items should fit within settings). GMs can't just do a private engraving but if you have an item you would like to have engraved to support a RP talk to a GM and an engraving event can probably be set up for a time you will be around so that you can get your item customized. Just last Friday I did an engraving event where someone got a couple of items engraved to be used in RPs in a guild house. Note that the GMs can't provide the item to be engraved and yes there is afee charged to get the items engraved, since the engraving event is an IC event and the engraver is just a craftsperson trying to make a living like everyone else. There are also GM merchants who show up at times who can sell items that have been approved for players to have but can't be obtained via NPCs or quests like carpets and pillows.
-
Sarva, take that stupid PS GM rule book and stuff it where the sun don't shine.
If Tazen is doing a good job of making the player experience better and more enjoyable, then he is doing what a GM should be doing. Oh, if you ever played proper RPG tablet games, you would know the most important rule: "Rules can be broken as the GM sees fit in order to improve the whole gaming experience of the players."
The foremost important thing a GM should do for players, is to create an enjoyable atmosphere. The rest of the GM comes next after obtaining the most important GM rule, of breaking the rules where necessary to ensure players are having fun.
I think all GMs excluding Tazen should go for lessons how to be a GM by attending proper RPG tablet gaming sessions to see how to be a good GM, and see how players are smiling at the end of the session, even if their characters were killed in the session. Tazen seems to have figured out what it means to be a GM.
-
@confused: Chill dude. I agree with some of what you're saying. But you're not doing yourself any favors by trash talking the GM team. And you're probably not doing Taz any favors by singling him out.
As someone who has attended a handful of Tazen's events I can say that I've always had a lot of fun in them, and that Tazen has probably done more to enhance my enjoyment of PlaneShift than anyone else. So whatever he's doing, it's working.
However, I don't think any of the ones I attended were player-created. If there's a rule against GMs getting involved, I respect that. I don't agree with it. I probably would change it if I had the power. But I respect that you guys have a reason for this rule to be in place.
As a player, I trust that the people chosen to be GMs will treat everyone fairly. But maybe others aren't so trusting.
-
It's great to see Tazen back in action.
He does not deserve a discussion about GM rules tagged with his name.
-
The rule about GMs and player events has a lot behind it. This has caused quite a lot of trouble in the past on this system. GMs should not be too friendly with players. Especially considering the history of the last few years.
-
Might as well throw in my two cents. It was nice to see Tazen interact with players because it means he cared enough to do so. Mind you, I stick out that he has to do way to much on his own for events.... Players could stand to step up and contribute more. It would be nice to see GMs and players collaborate on events more; however, I recognize that the need to prevent drama is a real problem... hence current GM rules.
The best conpromise is probably to do like I did. Have players work together to put together a coherent and thought out event, then ask if GMs can supply certain elements. When done within reason, it should be a win win. Ideally speaking that is. No sarcasm from you Aiwe. :p
I also stick out that the last few years shouldn't influence much.... Most of the people involved with that stuff are so gone there aren't hardly footprints left. The new player base seems less inclined to start a ruckus and most of the current GMs and Devs seem less likely to develop bad relations with players. The context has changed even if the issues haven't. People can make all the difference. ;)
-
No sarcasm from you Aiwe. :p
Pffft...it's about GMs...it's sooo hard to be not sarcastic there. But hey, as your little Igor event helper slave I went along with your idea of GM involvement so no complains there. Actually worked a lot better than I expected but of course I still would never involve any in my own events.
But for once I agree with verdan...mixing players and GMs will eventually end in a very big explosion.
-
I've known Taz for as long as I've been playing Planeshift. So, a few years.
And I know for a fact he is good at what he does. You should'nt criticize him for that. No offense to any other Gm, but he is the best one on the team. Simply Becuase he knows exactly what he's doing, and he is'nt afraid to take on everything at once.
He is, obviously, a multi-tasker, becuase even though he is being so involved with players, he also gets all his 'work' done. Any bugs/issues, he can get it taken care of right away, faster, than the gm's that 'arent' being involved with players.
The fact that he can do that, shows how much effort he puts into his job.
But here is what I see, with all this, favorism crap. Picking Favorites, that would be having a select few people, that he would be constantly helping, playing with, doing favors, ect. He does not do that..Im positive of this. His interactions with people, are all good or bad timing, anyone can ask for some involvment. Its not picking favorites to live by a first come first serve bases. Yeah, some people may be upset, that they cant get some gm involvment, becuase they decided they wanted to hold some, moderately big RP event, that just happens to be at the same time as another. And think about this, sombody wants an Rp event, such as that wedding, you need a bunch of different roles, for many different parts, with how small the player base is, and how many people insist on crafting weapons/armor or just fighting. Its almost certain, some of these minor roles wont be filled, why would it be bad for a gm to fill them? In Fact, if the player base had more involvment, from 'more' of the GM's a lot more people would be having fun with this game. And if 'all' the GM's decided to contribute to that, there wouldnt be anyone to complain, becuase everyone is getting some involvment at some point or another. Its like a lot of people say, GM's have commands, that players cant use, that make an RP more immersive, thats what this games goal is apperently, immersing the players. There doesnt have to be a reward involved, in fact people should be satisfied, or expect there not to be. The only reason you even need to worry about rewards for unschedualed events, is becuase you give them out during planned ones. Becuase of that, everyone has an idea in their head that GM's giveout goodies, But you cant assume that, becuase people dont need rewards to be happy, if you do, an RP game isnt for you..Its about the story not the reward..
Gm's improve the story.
Addressing, their physical being. The GM 'Sarva' Does not exist in the game, The GM 'Venalan' Does not exist in the game. However if they Change their name to Zyk Yla, or something, [Im bad at names v.v] Than as far as anyone is concerned, 'that' person exists in the game, If a gm takes the time to give it abackstory, even if they are only going to use the name once, there is no reason they shouldnt be alowed to.
Now think about this. This thread was started, thanking Tazen, for 'helping' the player base, and making the game 'enjoyable'.
How often do you get that on these forums? I've done my share of thanking the Gm team, but thats becuase Im friends with a good few of them. And I support their 'involvment' Becuase it makes people 'LIKE' the game. I also Understand you have rules, But I would suggest you think about changing them, becuase they are making the game bland. The Gm's, are a huge balloon of potential, and these rules, disallowing them to get involved with people, instead of the balloon making the party pretty, it just floated into the sky and got lost..
And mabey popularity isnt a top priority for the ones in charge. But having people to talk to, and having things in the game, that we 'enjoy' Is important, to everyone else.
Grow a heart and realize that..
-
But for once I agree with verdan...mixing players and GMs will eventually end in a very big explosion.
Sorry but I cannot agree with this, GMs and players are made to mix at some point, the problem is doing it in a mature and not competitive way.
Everyone who's been a GM (in any RPG) knows that he must use its powers with wisdom, and for good reasons. Given that players can only benefit from the GM interacting with them. And the GMs will gain experience from that.
Eventually someone will complain about a specific event but if common sense was used by the GM the majority of the players base will understand this and the issue will fail to create a rift.
Also I think the two instances: GM interactions and specific GM/devs items not available in game for players, are two different problems that needs to be discussed with different approach.
I would solve the first like I said before and for the latter I think it would be cool to let the players have some of them, for example some could be sold by npc while other could be available by crafting.
-
Thank you guys for the kind words and encouragement, has made my day. :)
I <3 you all <-----THIS MUCH -----> :thumbup:
-
To address the topic, As Eonwind has already said... It comes down to common sense, plain and simple. If players are happily involved in a RP and a GM goes blundering in as a guard or whatever it may be, takes over, starts shoving his/her weight around and acting like a child that never got enough hugs... Obviously that’s stupid and that person would need coaching.
On the other hand, if for example there is an RP ongoing, the group are a little short, need a part filling or could do with a guard there for the sake of their plot, need an NPC impersonating or whatever it may be, then what’s the harm? The GM can still play the part, follow the lead of the players running the RP and enhance the experience for everyone involved. I actually feel truly honoured when I’m poked by players saying “Hey, no worries if you’re busy, but if not would you be able to jump in as a guard?”, feeling honoured because the players trust me to play the part humbly, respect the fact that regardless of what they’re doing, or what’s going on – it’s still their RP and my guard is a guest in their story. And to that point I end exactly where I began, common sense, the ability to read a situation, communication and mutual respect with the players.
The specific case that brought this thread about was that I agreed to RP a priest in a wedding ceremony for two players, I thought it was a nice idea, felt flattered they had asked and agreed to assist. Some pillows, carpets and food were locked down and the ceremony was performed, no items we’re given out, it was RP’d very well, a friend of the couple provided custom brewed drinks (books with descriptions written inside them), which was a nice touch. Basically everyone involved had a great time, it’s not every day two characters get married after all. The feedback was also fantastic, 18 players attended which at the time equated to about half the server. Not one player has complained.
We’re a community, and the culture here is one that we help each other, whether we are players, devs, gm’s, whatever. And if we’re asked to help with something, it’s in most of our nature to do so. This has nothing to do with favouritism, giving items away (which has never happened at a player event), player’s missing RP opportunities or any of these things that haven’t actually occurred. It’s about having FUN, embracing the RP culture we have and creating a dynamic environment where random things can happen.
-
I'd also like to add that Tazen was very encouraging to me during a player event that I hosted on a IRC, simply by choosing to be present and observe. He also proved most helpful when my event sorta went haywire on the first night (due to people having to leave early), by helping keep the channel open until the next evening, when my group tried the scene again and it went splendidly! Afterword Tazen offered some very encouraging words, and helped build my confidence for doing events in the future. :thumbup:
So... Thanks, Tazen! \\o//
-
Regarding the wedding, I just want to add - no RP opportunities were lost due to Tazen's involvement. To tell the whole truth, without his involvement there would have been fewer opportunities there, not less. We'd originally planned to keep the whole thing quiet. I think we only had five people on the list including ourselves to begin with. We never had any intention of asking someone to cook for us. (Honestly, this sort of mundane RP bores me beyond belief. I understand someone else might enjoy it, but it wasn't someone else's wedding, so no one was ever going to be asked to cook.) As for another player conducting the ceremony, again, it wasn't going to happen. We'd already planned that one of us would run an alt for it.
Because Taz got involved, we then went ahead and did much more. We got someone to make drinks. (An alchemist. The drinks 'did things' to the guests. It was funny and so much more interesting than RPing a request to have food.) Someone else took the initiative to decorate the drinks and present them as a wedding gift. Since Taz took the time to set out pillows we also decided it would be worth sharing with more people, so we opened it up and RPed going round inviting those we knew. These things would not have happened otherwise.
What it comes down to is that without Taz, half the players logged in at that time would not have showed up. There would never have been anything for them to show up to. As it stands, everyone was welcomed and the invite was made to everyone online at the time. People got involved and the result was more RP than there would have been if we'd followed our original plan.
So linking back to Sarva's post about the wedding - Tazen actually created "more RP for more people, and isn't that what the game is suppose to be about is RP for the players?"
I can't comment on rules, but everything I have seen tells me that this is what Tazen makes.
-
I don't want my comment to be misinterpreted, a common pitfall for an old troll. My previous comment only served as a general reminder, to remember that which should not be forgotten. Tazen himself interacts very nicely with the players and puts a good face on the game, he is a credit to the system. I am impressed with the feeling on the system these days. The old "cozy" feeling seems to be coming back, slightly so far, but its there. It is to the credit of the current players and GM team. (And the developers, man has there been real progression across all systems!)
-
Alright, my own two cents, "Players are allowed to organize events on their own, like duels, hunting sessions or even more complex stories they can role-play. GMs should not interfere with those events apart from the usual moderating work. In no case is a GM allowed to provide prizes for events created by players, or use GM command functions to help the set-up or development of the event.".
Tazen has never interfered from what I've seen and I've seen a lot. He starts events, true when players make mention they'd like them sometimes, but they add a ton of variety to the game and players love them, all of them. A few events on occasion that are nearly impossible to catch just make people frustrated. Tazen comes in as a guard when it's warranted, like when there's a fight in the tavern or in front of Harn's; I've been told directly by a GM that events like this would catch guard notice almost immediately in Hydlaa.
I personally like all that has happened since Tazen came back and started running frequent events, and for many reasons. For one, the game just seems like this static thing we just run around aimlessly in, but when there are frequent events, it breaks up the monotony. It sparks tons of RP, allows players to do something quest-like, but actually interact with people, not the usual "click, click, click, run over here, click, click..." of a quest. Honestly, players also like to be able to get special stuff, useful special stuff too. Without a chance to participate in an event, they only get to see what the older players carry around, obtained years ago, and get frustrated. Tons of players have spent hundreds of hours in game, and haven't even seen a single event. Heck, I ran a player event once just to give someone a chance to see some event, and potentially win a prize.
As well, this bridges the player-GM gap... instead of seeing GMs as those quiet people who only come in when PS is acting up or punish people, people now see GMs as actual people, here to make the game a more fun place. With 40 people online usually, AFTER the merging of the servers, we need PS to be made more enjoyable.
As for any other rules Tazen may be violating or getting close to violating... I think those rules need to be revisited, because I 100% approve of what Tazen is doing, at least what I can see. If the rules state that what Tazen does is bad for the game, and there is this overwhelming response by the players (a large percentage of active players) that say what he is doing is good for the game, then the rules are not right and need modification. Rules change over time, they don't just get set in stone and then have merit just for existing; they are set in place when there's a reason, and they are also removed or altered when there's reason.
-
Guys I'm truly honoured by all your encouraging and kind comments, thank you so much for your support; it means a lot to me and I've heaps of respect for all of you. I'm still committed to helping where I can, and supporting you guys whenever possibly. :thumbup:
-
:thumbup: What Glaciusor said.
I was lucky enough to participate and enjoy some of Tazen's events. All I have to add is, "YAY Tazen!"
Sanrai :sorcerer:
-
Nice vid Taz, pity you have locked it now there are lots of us that enjoyed it xxx