PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: gonger on June 26, 2013, 02:49:52 pm

Title: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: gonger on June 26, 2013, 02:49:52 pm: Dear all,

On youtube I recently came across what was called a PlaneShift "review", and the reaction of an (by now ex-) PlaneShift player to it. While as a single incident this is probably without too much importance, it made me think a lot about how the PlaneShift community represents itself to the outside world, and I would like to discuss this here.

I write "review", because it was of poor quality, scratching but the surface of PlaneShift, and ignoring many crucial points. The author had not even fully mastered the interface, and one of the highlights was when he called PlaneShift "too English". (Both "review" and answer were in German.)

Such a "review" is not nice, but the reaction to it was a pure desaster, since the ex-player insulted the author and put forth some absurd claims about the state of the game ("you can do everything now", "there are always 400 people online").

This kind of reaction, even if the anger behind is understandable up to a certain point, can easily create the impression that PlaneShift players are rude and stupid nerds who are unable to handle criticism. While some of the members of the PlaneShift community are certainly exactly like this, most of us are not.

We should also keep in mind that whenever we write about PlaneShift, we are not only writing in our own name. We represent the whole PlaneShift Community.

I replied both to the original author, and to the ex-player, trying to set some things straight.

Below please find some points that IMHO should be respected when talking about PlaneShift. Please do comment about the list - what should be added, where am I wrong?

* Be polite. (One should think this is obvious, but see the example above.)
* Be honest.
* Accept justified criticism.
* Show some sense of humour.
* Do not claim knowledge you do not have, but invite people to come and see for themselves.
* Talk about the strengths of PlaneShift, without denying its weaknesses.
* Mention that PlaneShift is totally free, not just partly free as so many other games.
* PlaneShift is and probably always will be under constant development.
* PlaneShift has a strong community.
* The Dev team is hiring.

Thank you for your opinions. It is important that we present PlaneShift well, so as to attract new people.

Gonger
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: Volki on June 26, 2013, 06:26:14 pm: What?

I don't understand how players represent a game. Developers and game masters, yes, but not players.

That's like judging a restaurant based on how annoying the customers sitting around you are. Judge based on the food (the game). If some idiot parents won't reel in their kids that keep running under your table, report it to the manager (game masters). But don't judge the restaurant (game) based on other customers (players). And other customers are free to their own opinions of the restaurant, so don't try to regulate their crappy Yelp reviews.
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: MishkaL1138 on June 26, 2013, 08:13:28 pm: Quote from: Volki on June 26, 2013, 06:26:14 pm
What?

I don't understand how players represent a game. Developers and game masters, yes, but not players.

That's like judging a restaurant based on how annoying the customers sitting around you are. Judge based on the food (the game). If some idiot parents won't reel in their kids that keep running under your table, report it to the manager (game masters). But don't judge the restaurant (game) based on other customers (players). And other customers are free to their own opinions of the restaurant, so don't try to regulate their crappy Yelp reviews.

Players don't represent the game as customers don't represent a restaurant?

As a student and worker on the business of hostelry, I can tell you the customers are the best marketing tactics you can have. Sure, you can determine how a restaurant is by the kind of customers it has: a Japanese buffet won't be the same as a nouvelle cuisine restaurant or a fast food joint.

What matters here is how you treat your customers, or in this case your players. Are they happy? Do you give them what they ask for? Is what they get, what they expected to get? Do you provide them the help they require, when they require it? Is the quality of your service good enough to your possibilities?
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: LigH on June 26, 2013, 08:24:29 pm: In general, people tend to generalize ... ;)

A biased review is bad reputation for the game. A furious reply is even worse reputation for the community.
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: novacadian on June 26, 2013, 08:50:23 pm: Quote from: MishkaL1138 on June 26, 2013, 08:13:28 pm
As a student and worker on the business of hostelry, I can tell you the customers are the best marketing tactics you can have.

Table for two, please Mish. ;)

- Nova
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: MishkaL1138 on June 26, 2013, 09:45:20 pm: Quote from: LigH on June 26, 2013, 08:24:29 pm
In general, people tend to generalize ... ;)

A biased review is bad reputation for the game. A furious reply is even worse reputation for the community.

Also called "How a hundred happy customers won't affect your business at all, but a single jerkwad can have it shut down."
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: tman on June 26, 2013, 11:36:22 pm: Quote from: Volki on June 26, 2013, 06:26:14 pm
I don't understand how players represent a game. Developers and game masters, yes, but not players.

That's like judging a restaurant based on how annoying the customers sitting around you are. Judge based on the food (the game). If some idiot parents won't reel in their kids that keep running under your table, report it to the manager (game masters). But don't judge the restaurant (game) based on other customers (players). And other customers are free to their own opinions of the restaurant, so don't try to regulate their crappy Yelp reviews.

Good analogy I guess. Players don't represent the game. But they DO represent the game community. And in PlaneShift especially the community has so much of an impact on the experience.
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: Zalya on June 27, 2013, 12:35:36 am: At least for me, the community is where all the fun comes from. If it was a single player game that would be something different, but its not. Planeshift is an MMO, and like it or not MMO's are intrinsically social. I feel the restraint analogy works poorly here. If anything I feel like its more like a sports team. The coach's, playing field, and equipment, but its not going to be fun if you don't have a good team. Now this is on a much smaller scale, but I feel it works. And honestly save for a few outliers, Planeshift has one of the better MMO communities out there.

That being said, maybe Planeshift could use a few better reviews. I feel the major problem is that people come into expecting a fully polished game. But Planeshift is, and will possibly forever be a Beta release. I've personally had so many problems with the system of the game that have frustrated me to no end. But I stick around because of all the wonderful people here.
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: Volki on June 27, 2013, 01:31:25 am: Pretty sure PlaneShift is in alpha.

I may have misread the post, as I can't read text that large. Anyway, I believe my point still stands.

Gonger, so, you watched/read a "review" and then read a comment from an enraged player? Sounds like every PlaneShift review in existence.

@Mishka, I can't understand what you are saying.
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: Taya on June 27, 2013, 10:31:01 am: Personally I think what Gonger says is pretty valid and worth thinking about. A game that makes a good impression is a game that's more likely to attract new players and do well. How the game is presented in the realms of the wider internet determines which type of players, if any, are the ones who will come and check this out and think about joining.

And yes, players do represent a game. A game's community is an element of the game, even if outside direct control of the developers. PS 'the game' would not exist if it had no community and how that community acts influences how things develop in terms of what kind of players we can attract in the future.

If we conduct ourselves like a bunch of angry idiots who scream nonsense to defend ourselves, and someone encounters only that, they are likely to think "PS players are a bunch of childish angry idiots who can't handle criticism; why would I play that?", but if we give mature and reasonable arguments against negative reviews, that same person will be left thinking "the player base actually seems pretty smart and decent; maybe this review is wrong and I should take a look for myself?"

If we had more people representing the PS community as it actually is, we'd probably have a much better chance of getting more players.
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: MishkaL1138 on June 27, 2013, 02:46:12 pm: Quote from: Volki on June 27, 2013, 01:31:25 am
@Mishka, I can't understand what you are saying.

TL;DR: You're wrong. Players represent the game, as customers advertise a restaurant.

(http://i.qkme.me/3q1qwj.jpg)
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: Rigwyn on June 28, 2013, 01:36:04 am: When a new games comes out, do you try it because you think the community is nice, or do you try it because its new and looks like fun? You typically learn about the community afterwards. People like "new", "novel", "edgy", "fun", "fast", "wow", and "wicked" - not "This again", "10 years old", "brown", etc..
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: Taya on June 28, 2013, 02:33:24 am: Quote from: Rigwyn on June 28, 2013, 01:36:04 am
When a new games comes out, do you try it because you think the community is nice, or do you try it because its new and looks like fun? You typically learn about the community afterwards. People like "new", "novel", "edgy", "fun", "fast", "wow", and "wicked" - not "This again", "10 years old", "brown", etc..

As valid as this is, PS isn't new.

And from what I have seen, one of the main ways, if not the main way, that people become aware of PS, is word of mouth, be it in the form of reviews or a friend telling someone to check the game out... This is the sense in which the community matters - it's the community that creates that 'word of mouth' which spreads awareness and which determines if the impression people get of the game is good or bad.

PS doesn't exactly seem to do much, if any, official advertising after all. People join based on whether or not the things they encounter make them think this is a good game, and without the official advertising, the determining factor can often be... what players and ex-players have to say. What else but how people present the game is going to make them think PS is fun, edgy, wicked or whatever other word we want to use?

I am sure there are those who join without having come across any player's views before hand but I'm equally sure there are those who join (or not) depending on what players have shown to them.

So it's worth showing them the better side of what we are.

If that earns us a single extra player, then surely it's a good thing to do?
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: Rigwyn on June 28, 2013, 03:31:41 am: I don't see any benefit right now for PS to advertise. Yeah, its good for us players ( Well, sort of... A noob-tsunami could cause everyone to flee ) but not necessarily any better for those who are making the game. How many testers do you really need? From a development point of view, would having 250 people playing help with finding bugs much more than say 20?

I found out about the game by googling - not by word of mouth. I gave it a try because it looked like it kinda sorta resembled what I was searching for. If it wasn't for the one or two ( literally one or two ) crappy websites that mentioned it back in '07, I would never have known about it. If the game was advertised in a more prominent place, more people would be able to discover it. Ubuntu's package list or Cnet's download.com would be a nice start.

As for being civil - or pretending to be civil, I doubt many folks will go for that. Personally, I'd rather people just say what's on their minds - ugly or nice instead of pretending to like one another.
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: Volki on June 28, 2013, 10:04:14 am: Quote from: MishkaL1138 on June 27, 2013, 02:46:12 pm
Quote from: Volki on June 27, 2013, 01:31:25 am
@Mishka, I can't understand what you are saying.

TL;DR: You're wrong. Players represent the game, as customers advertise a restaurant.

Oh, the irony. You even included a meme. This is exactly the reason none of your posts are taken seriously.

Anyyywaaayy... I'm pretty sure PS has the same community as any other game. The view of the community from the outside is mostly shaped by the developers and GMs. They target an audience and they create the rules. I can't remember where I'm going with this because I'm on (legal) drugs.

Huge segue that was supposed to make sense.

This game's community is more barbaric and immature than the MMO FPS I play. There, no one is told, "I'm righter than you because I'm more schooled than you." No one is maliciously accused of being a troll. People actually bother to write out thoughtful responses in posts, even to noobs. No one is told to shut up. No one is defamed on the forum. People cuss, and no one cares, not even the kids, because it's all fun and games (and there's an opt-out filter). I don't even remember the last time someone called me a "faggot". And in the entire time I've played, only one person has ever had a hitman sent to their house.

When people go to look up bad things about PlaneShift, besides the outdated graphics, the bugs, and the neverending alpha stage, they find drama. Drama everywhere. And it's not coming from the players. It's coming from the GMs and developers. Over and over, the same ones, with evidence from many players. Of course, nobody does a thing because "there was no report". Yeah, maybe that's because we knew it would go to the person who was harassing us!
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: MishkaL1138 on June 28, 2013, 12:23:33 pm: Well, you shoul kn- wait. What is this... A flame! He is flaming us! He's a flamer! How could I not have known earlier! An no, I'm not maliciously accusing: I'm stating a fact.
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: Taya on June 28, 2013, 01:16:49 pm: Quote from: Rigwyn on June 28, 2013, 03:31:41 am
As for being civil - or pretending to be civil, I doubt many folks will go for that. Personally, I'd rather people just say what's on their minds - ugly or nice instead of pretending to like one another.

I don't think anyone's asking for false civility, or false anything. The point was more about not acting like a shouty little imbecile while giving whatever views you have. Maybe I'm misunderstanding Gonger's idea though.
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: Minks on June 28, 2013, 01:44:55 pm: This actually made me laugh out loud in the office. A flame war with the title "how to represent PlaneShift". :lol:
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: Volki on June 28, 2013, 09:39:30 pm: Apparently I missed something because... in the past two pages, there is no flaming. I'm not sure you two understand the meaning of that word.

Link to (might have NSFW ads I can't see) this ridiculous site (http://this ridiculous site). Please take a read and stop trying to incite a war yourself.

In case you didn't get it, Mishka, I posted that I couldn't understand you because I literally did not understand you. Nothing you said made sense to me. Your response was rude, so don't expect something too kind back.

I don't think I've ever been told "You're wrong" by someone who was actually right. If someone's right, they skip right over that and explain why. In all the cases I've been flat-out told "You're wrong!" that person has only ever had a very shaky understanding of whatever subject it may be or they are afraid that their own understanding of the material is not good enough. It's pathetic.

This is exactly what I was talking about. -_-

On topic:

This is a game. It's obviously not a restaurant. I knew that wouldn't be a great analogy, but it was close enough. Although, I'm fairly certain people do not judge a restaurant based on the customers. I never have. None of my friends do. It's safe to say the rest of humanity doesn't as well. The only reasons I would avoid a restaurant would be because 1) the food is bad, 2) the owners are rude, or 3) it's stanky.

Like I said earlier, and I will say again: people are pretty much the same everywhere.
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: Rigwyn on June 29, 2013, 07:07:19 am: Quote
Like I said earlier, and I will say again: people are pretty much the same everywhere.

Yeah, Volki. Everyone's an a**hole, and they all stink... Oh wait... or was it "Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one, and they all stink." Well, either way, there's a terrible stench here on the forum that just refuses to leave. I have my suspicions as to why and where its coming from... >.>

This applies to politics too, btw.
Title: Re: How to (re)present PlaneShift
Post by: novacadian on June 29, 2013, 04:27:39 pm: Interesting thread. This discussion reminds me of simular ones on the OSGrid Forum (http://forums.osgrid.org/). There, too, is a project in development. The devs have enough testers for their needs and they get to use the software as characters/avatars. There are those who decry the admin on OSGrid for not caring for the community enough... of enforcing policies that thwart it. My experience has been that those which make the hue and cry just don't get Open Source. The great part about it is that if one does not like aspects of the admin of a certain Open Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Source)Project they can simple develop their own fork. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_fork)

My general observations are that those which squeak the loudest thinks Perl is something Grandma mutters while knitting and Java is something you drink.

- Nova