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Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Rigwyn on July 19, 2013, 12:56:03 am

Title: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Rigwyn on July 19, 2013, 12:56:03 am
So as we all know, there's been a bit of an upheaval regarding Ed Snowden's revelations of the spying programs employed by the US and other governments. Electronic communications of every sort are being vacuumed up and saved like it or not. If your communications get routed though the US or London, you can assume they have been recorded and may be searched at some point.

Some folks would argue that there's no real harm in this - that we're better off trading this privacy in for security in the form of monitoring. Some argue that the removal of privacy inhibits people from speaking and exchanging ideas freely. Still others would argue that the governments that we kinda-sorta trust today could change and turn on us in the future and use this information against us.

So, my question is: How important is privacy to you? Why is it important, and what expectations do you have on privacy?
(http://owni.eu/files/2011/05/spying.jpg)
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Ebonwumon on July 19, 2013, 01:28:36 am
Privacy is about 12 units of importance to me.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: cdmoreland on July 19, 2013, 03:22:34 am
Being an American I abhor what our government is doing. I knew about the black unmarked helicopters for years before our government admitted to it and I don't like that they can track and shut-down the newer vehicles from satellites. I don't carry a cell-phone and know that everything I do on the internet is known to the government and most any good hacker. I don't wear a tin-foil hat, I wear a WWII steel pot! ;D

Not much one can do when the majority of people want the government to take care of them.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: LigH on July 19, 2013, 09:04:03 am
I used to live alone in a separate room in the "old office" of the company building during the work week, avoiding to commute daily (weekly is a bit cheaper then).

Since I have to share it temporarily with two co-workers, I know how valuable privacy can be.

A pity the administrative interceptions are not so blatantly obvious; the peoples would have protested a lot earlier if they could have noticed their loss of privacy.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Rigwyn on July 19, 2013, 11:04:34 am
What's funny is how quickly you can get used to not having privacy. Where I work, we have no expectation of privacy whatsoever. Electronic communications in every form are assumed to be recorded. If you would not feel comfortable having something plastered all over the walls, then your don't say it. This puts a limit on your ability to express yourself freely. This may be ok for work, but its really not acceptable otherwise.

We use google and trust them with our search terms and with knowing which links we chose to click on, and how long we stayed at each site. We assume that they will use this in good faith to make money. It seems like a reasonable trade until you realize how heavily your are tracked. Some of these companies probably know far more about our browsing habits, our likes and dislikes that we do ourselves. Further, they have access to this very personal information, and we don't.

They can make predictions about our future purchasing decisions by analysing our usage data. If a company sees that I've visited 5 different websites to research laptops in the last 2 days, there's a good chance that throwing a laptop ad my way will result in a hit and possibly a purchase. Based on other pages that I perused, they might be able to match a specific machine and style to my preferences. If they see that I've also been looking for quotes on luxury items, then the might hit me with an ad that focuses more on style than price - saving the price slashing ads for those who visit sites like walmart.com or who download certain types of music that statistically correlate more strongly with those who are less affluent.

What's really creepy is the thought that this information could very easily be sold to other companies and advertisers without making any attempt to respect my privacy. Do I want my browsing history to be a factor when my next potential employer does a background check on me? Could it prevent me from getting a job, a credit card, or entrance into a school? Some of the damage done by harvesting and exploiting such information might be suffered but never detected.

Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: novacadian on July 19, 2013, 12:02:38 pm

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Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Cirerey on July 19, 2013, 03:34:35 pm
As another American I really wish I had a defined right to privacy, and the due process ability to know about and challenge data gathered about me. Defining my personal data as a part of my person would help a lot. Not that any of this is likely to happen anytime soon.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Sen on July 19, 2013, 04:39:27 pm
We experience at the moment that having this right doesn't mean more than written words on a paper.

Btw, your opinion is being recorded by your government.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: bilbous on July 19, 2013, 05:43:37 pm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/07/18/f-vp-schlesinger-wonderful-world.html?cmp=rss
rose colored glasses? or the better things get the worse they get?

Privacy is an abstract notion that only exists if it is made to exist, sort of like your "inalienable rights"
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: tman on July 19, 2013, 07:35:55 pm
They can make predictions about our future purchasing decisions by analysing our usage data. If a company sees that I've visited 5 different websites to research laptops in the last 2 days, there's a good chance that throwing a laptop ad my way will result in a hit and possibly a purchase. Based on other pages that I perused, they might be able to match a specific machine and style to my preferences. If they see that I've also been looking for quotes on luxury items, then the might hit me with an ad that focuses more on style than price - saving the price slashing ads for those who visit sites like walmart.com or who download certain types of music that statistically correlate more strongly with those who are less affluent.

What I think is silly is that in my experience people seem to treat targeted advertising as an unquestionably negative thing.  So much so that I even had a roommate who, whenever he was watching Hulu, would purposely rate the advertisements as the opposite of how he actually felt because he didn't like the idea of Hulu "trying to sell him something."  To me that is just silly.  If I have to watch ads I would much rather see something I am interested in, like movies and video games, than random crap like make-up and car commercials.  To me targeted advertising is a good thing.  It prevents both me from wasting time and the advertiser from wasting money by showing me random crap I'm never going to buy.

Now obviously there's some stuff about my internet usage I wouldn't want them to sell to potential employers and stuff (for example, posting on the PS forums while at work  :innocent:  ).
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Rigwyn on July 20, 2013, 12:18:44 am
They can make predictions about our future purchasing decisions by analysing our usage data. If a company sees that I've visited 5 different websites to research laptops in the last 2 days, there's a good chance that throwing a laptop ad my way will result in a hit and possibly a purchase. Based on other pages that I perused, they might be able to match a specific machine and style to my preferences. If they see that I've also been looking for quotes on luxury items, then the might hit me with an ad that focuses more on style than price - saving the price slashing ads for those who visit sites like walmart.com or who download certain types of music that statistically correlate more strongly with those who are less affluent.

What I think is silly is that in my experience people seem to treat targeted advertising as an unquestionably negative thing.  So much so that I even had a roommate who, whenever he was watching Hulu, would purposely rate the advertisements as the opposite of how he actually felt because he didn't like the idea of Hulu "trying to sell him something."  To me that is just silly.  If I have to watch ads I would much rather see something I am interested in, like movies and video games, than random crap like make-up and car commercials.  To me targeted advertising is a good thing.  It prevents both me from wasting time and the advertiser from wasting money by showing me random crap I'm never going to buy.

Now obviously there's some stuff about my internet usage I wouldn't want them to sell to potential employers and stuff (for example, posting on the PS forums while at work  :innocent:  ).

I agree that there's a positive side to targeted advertising. I see ads for Craftsman tools instead of Tampax which is good for me and the advertiser. But what happens if the advertiser takes 5 years worth of my browsing history ( based on each website that I visit and that they track ) and then sells it to the nasty bill collectors who have been after me, or a fraudulent company who might use this information to scam me? In the wrong hands, that information could be very dangerous.

Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: yourcharname on July 20, 2013, 12:31:40 am
no
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Rigwyn on July 20, 2013, 01:22:22 am
There's an interesting firefox addon called Collusion which shows you how you are being tracked. In the photo below, you can see that scorecardsearch.com is potentially aware that I've visited Fox News, Guardian News and CNN. This is just a quick example that was generated after clicking a few sites. Having visited a site doesn't really mean all that much, but if they are tracking which pages your viewed, how long you remained on each page, ( as an indicator as to whether you read it or moved on ), what search phrases you used and so on, than there could be a substantial amount of information for them to harvest.

While this may not be all that harmful now, it has the potential for abuse.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/24k93.png)


Quote
Btw, your opinion is being recorded by your government.
xD

I'm sure your government is in bed with my government.... like everyone else's government.

Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: bilbous on July 20, 2013, 02:49:57 am
just make sure to search "how to hack web trackers to identify the people who benefit from spying on me" several hundred times a day.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Sen on July 20, 2013, 09:14:23 am
There's an interesting firefox addon called Collusion which shows you how you are being tracked.

I just installed it on chrome - nice tool!

Privacy is not necessarily connected to real consequences like the examples with the employer. Privacy can be a feeling. I tell you a secret; I have quite some money in my easy accessible appartment. Noone's going to rob me now (I hope), but honestly, I don't need any discussion if I'm stupid or rich or both.
And I really don't feel well at all telling that. So usually, I don't and don't want anyone to know. It's an information about me, and thus it should be only me who decides who may know or not. Privacy is security and freedom.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Taya on July 20, 2013, 12:29:35 pm
I've never had a great expectation of privacy, especially online, though that doesn't make it undesirable to me. And I really don't like the idea that the government is collecting who knows what data or that my browsing habits are being watched and logged somewhere to potentially be used one day. If it's not something I am putting in a public place that means it's not something I am offering up for scrutiny of my own free will and, even though I generally have nothing to hide, I rather make my own choices about what anyone can or can not check about me.

As for the issue of adverts, well, I'd probably say I would consider targeted ones a lesser evil than non-targeted one if not for all the other implications about the data that allows them to start targeting. Once you look at that side of it, they are not good at all and personally I prefer to minimise my exposure to any adverts when possible.

One thing I do use as a small protection against being tracked from site to site by other 'normal' internet users is to vary the names I use in different places. I also usually keep them short and simple enough that Google will spit out dozens and dozens of results that are not me if you try to search for them. I also don't ever post photos of myself online anywhere. Of course that doesn't mean other people won't, but in general I've found almost everyone I know respects that I don't want this, to the extent that the only images I've ever been tagged as on social media are pictures of cats instead of people! Though I'm not foolish enough to think that someone with enough determination wouldn't be able to find anything out about me.

Physical privacy is another issue. I am endlessly thankful that I live in a place that at least gives me the illusion of having this.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Chessire on July 20, 2013, 12:29:50 pm
I don't know if people know about this but there's a firefox plugin called ghostery that blocks trackers, analytics and widgets on any website.
Also, https finder alongside https everywhere are also very useful plugins that can help you protect your privacy, as they force https protocol on most websites (https prevents a third party from checking your movement on the web).

FYI, no trackers on this website  ;D
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Rigwyn on July 20, 2013, 09:30:59 pm
You can change accounts on forums or on google, but they can still see which IP address you came from. Unless your ISP issues a random IP address each time you connect, its pretty easy to see that multiple accounts are being used with the same IP address. Its fairly common practice as far as I know, to keep assigning users the same IP address.

So ... when you connect to a website, the web site owner will typically see for each time you connect, your IP address, the time of connection, the pages you looked at, details about your browser and sometimes they also see which page you came from. ( yes, the page you were on previously ).

Your IP addresses can usually be associated with the town that you are connecting from or one close by. ( try this link to see: http://www.ip-adress.com/ ).  The govt on the other hand, could just ask your ISP for your customer details given your ip address... if they don't already a back door that lets them do that automatically.




Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: bilbous on July 20, 2013, 09:53:02 pm
you could always use tor, the onion router but that might mark you as a terrorist in certain circles.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Rigwyn on July 20, 2013, 11:26:06 pm
From this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-nsa-without-warrant

Quote
However, alongside those provisions, the Fisa court-approved policies allow the NSA to:

• Keep data that could potentially contain details of US persons for up to five years;

• Retain and make use of "inadvertently acquired" domestic communications if they contain usable intelligence, information on criminal activity, threat of harm to people or property, are encrypted, or are believed to contain any information relevant to cybersecurity;

So in light of all the way the corporations and governments spy on  and track people, you're left with the conclusion that being tracked and spied on is almost inescapable in this day and age. Its fair to assume that any records generated by any modern government office ( ie post office, library, motor vehicle dept, IRS, etc.. ) will be stored somewhere for as long as possible. The question is, do people really have a right to privacy? What is it worth, and how important is it to fight for it?
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: novacadian on July 21, 2013, 04:08:37 pm
So in light of all the way the corporations and governments spy on  and track people, you're left with the conclusion that being tracked and spied on is almost inescapable in this day and age.

Spying, of course, can go both ways. The ultimate we can expect of this new Information Age is the free flow of information for those that come after us. Now is the time to get that right. Support http://wikileaks.org
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Candy on July 21, 2013, 10:20:54 pm
I actively try to make my search history extra entertaining for the feds. ;D
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Eonwind on July 22, 2013, 11:14:12 am
So in light of all the way the corporations and governments spy on  and track people, you're left with the conclusion that being tracked and spied on is almost inescapable in this day and age. Its fair to assume that any records generated by any modern government office ( ie post office, library, motor vehicle dept, IRS, etc.. ) will be stored somewhere for as long as possible. The question is, do people really have a right to privacy? What is it worth, and how important is it to fight for it?

While I don't expect there will be any chance to protect online privacy as much as I would or as much I believe it would be rightful, I would rather risk the chance of dieing or see someone I care die instead of giving up my freedom (because I think freedom is being seriously threatened by such invasive privacy breaking) to any government, private or public company.
To state it more clearly: I don't think being safe from terrorism or somehow ensure a greater "would-be-safety" is worth the freedom that's being given up in the process.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: tman on July 22, 2013, 07:15:51 pm
Here's the thing.  If some bureaucrat in a government office is sitting somewhere sifting through my emails and browser history, I feel really really bad for the guy. I am not a terrorist, I commit very few crimes (I do break the speed limit on occasion  :whistling: ), I am not holding any government or corporate secrets.  So if someone from the government wants to track my internet activity, they are going to have a real boring day.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Roled on July 22, 2013, 11:55:19 pm
I was at an event the other day- I wont say what day it was
There I met some people- I won't say which people
The speaker said to the bunch assembled, 'younger people have to be careful not to get arrested,
cause now there's so much paranoia, an arrest record may keep you out of a job for life' (paraphrased). Then he said to the older people there, 'so you retired people, it's up to you to do civil disobedience, to rally, to obstruct, to resist, to occupy.  You have more freedom then the younger folks. You have to carry the banner, you have to do the work' (another paraphrase).
I looked around- there were a bunch of seniors scattered in multi-hundred crowd.  That keeps me hopeful. By the time I get there maybe I won't have to go to jail.  Or maybe I will.
We will do what we have to do, to resist neo-liberal, evangelical, corporate greed and control. 
When Kennedy and Eisenhauer were presidents, the tax rate on corporations making over hmmm I think it was $250,000 then was 91%.  Under Ronald Reagan the Repulicans slashed the tax rate to 27%. Clinton got it back to 32%.  Bush slashed it again to 21%, less than middle income and poor people pay in individual taxes. The costs of having a livable, equal, just society have been transfered by corporately controlled Republicans to the people making the least money. We are letting them buy out our democracy with our compliance.

(soapbox now vibrating with the booming voice of the little elf)
To be free, we must resist, we must question, we must not obey the corporate hegemony!

Thank you.
Don't tell the Octarch
RR  ::|

PS- Dear TSA I hope you enjoy the game!
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: tman on July 23, 2013, 01:09:15 am
91%? Seriously?  So for every extra $100,000 you work to make, you would have taken home only $9000?

I would straight up leave and take my business with me.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Rigwyn on July 23, 2013, 01:30:55 am
Regarding the 91% tax, I think you also need to figure in write-offs, deductions and loopholes. According to this article, what the very-rich actually paid was more like 35-40%.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=665814

Keep in mind, the rich folks who *own* our country and hold the strings of our marionette politicians are not going to make self-castrating laws.

Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: SpidaManz111 on July 24, 2013, 12:33:24 am
I think privacy is important.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Volki on July 25, 2013, 02:32:33 am
nobody cares
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Roled on July 25, 2013, 03:10:50 am
91%? Seriously?  So for every extra $100,000 you work to make, you would have taken home only $9000?

I would straight up leave and take my business with me.
This is one of the difficulties with simplistic thinking (sorry to call this statement simplistic, but , well, it is...) The tax rate is one measure of the equality of society- other measures are important too: cost of living, shard benefits to society, sharing the cost of roads, police, hospitals, clean air and water, library, schools, etc.  For a fuller picture of why the late 50's to the mid 70's in USA was a time of greater and increasing social equality and opportunity, read "The Spirit Level" by British sociologists Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resources/spirit-level-why-equality-better-everyone
and
For a more indepth discussion of tax rates and economic growth, read this article from 2012
http://forward.com/articles/164472/real-tax-debate-eisenhower-vs-reagan/?p=all
and follow up with other analyses of economics and social equity, especially
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Robert-Reich/2011/0216/A-super-high-tax-for-the-super-rich-Wouldn-t-be-the-first-time.
and http://www.workingfamiliesparty.org/?s=income+tax+rate

Then let's talk about it. If you want.

The thing is, no matter where you come down on taxes personally, the data show that higher taxes (what the right wing is wont to call "socialism") result in less crime, less inequality, more educated populations, less teenage pregnancy, less mental illness, and stronger "family" values.  Lower taxes, the result of "corporatism," (re: greed), result in increased social inequities, by all statistical measures. 

Privacy, individual freedoms coupled with social justice, and citizen involvement to protect freedom, help to create more equality, not less.

I for one, am FOR more equality, not less.
RR
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: tman on July 25, 2013, 07:43:17 pm
Yeah government-forced economic equality is great.  That's why the USSR is the undisputed world leader and East Germany was so much more prosperous than the west...
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: LigH on July 25, 2013, 08:01:50 pm
Constitutions are outdated anyway, they were made by anti-fascists, they are socialistic, they need to be reformed.

Believes JP Morgan. (http://blogs.euobserver.com/phillips/2013/06/07/jp-morgan-to-eurozone-periphery-get-rid-of-your-pinko-anti-fascist-constitutions/)

Not me. Neither Evgeny Morozov (http://www.faz.net/-hur-7bguu).
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Roled on July 26, 2013, 02:39:57 am
Constitutions are outdated anyway, they were made by anti-fascists, they are socialistic, they need to be reformed.

Believes JP Morgan. (http://blogs.euobserver.com/phillips/2013/06/07/jp-morgan-to-eurozone-periphery-get-rid-of-your-pinko-anti-fascist-constitutions/)

Not me. Neither Evgeny Morozov (http://www.faz.net/-hur-7bguu).

Really insightful articles, LigH- thanks for posting.  More people in the USA might benefit from a deeper and broader view of social freedoms. 
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: MishkaL1138 on July 26, 2013, 02:46:21 am
I don't know, LigH, Spanish Constitution is pretty nice, it's just that nobody obeys it.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: LigH on July 26, 2013, 08:05:57 am
It's even more complex in Germany, Mishka. Do we have a Constitution at all, or just a (temporary - sic!) Basic Law, as former occupation zone after WWII and still no fully sovereign country, as some experts say?

Yet, we have a "Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution" (Verfassungsschutz) ... which pays neo-nazis for unreliably delivering vague information; one of the results was the NSU (National-Socialistic Underground) which killed at least 10 people, more or less under the surveillance of the office. Great success in protecting our constitution, I am impressed...

At least Germany had very strong political ideals while creating a new republic after WWII to avoid a repetition of the reasons how Hitler could "democratically" claim the power when the parliament of the Weimar Republic surrendered their rights.

Believe it or not, Germany is doing the same idiocy again, for the sake of economical growth and in fear of terrorism. The people have no lobby.

On a side note: If the government trades civil rights (and privacy is one of the most important) for "protection" by abusing the fear of terrorism, do they become terrorists themselves by definition (terror = fear of violence, in contrast to the violence happening)? Our Minister of the Interior declared security as "Super Basic Right" ... and I used to believe that all Basic Rights are equal to protect the people.

Sometimes I wonder if a politician needs to live in a parallel universe to fulfill his job.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Eonwind on July 26, 2013, 10:29:02 am
Believe it or not but some of the european post WWII Constitutions are the most advanced document regarding human rights, freedom and equality.

In some country there could be the need to update part of them especially regarding the country organization but other than that their base principles should be an example for the rest of the world not the reverse.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: LigH on July 26, 2013, 10:39:23 am
No quarrels - no profit. Economy has different desires.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Moja Aere on July 26, 2013, 12:59:42 pm
 :o waited too much to read here... so I fear I'll go off topic, as the discussion evolved a bit since the 1st post...
Anyway...
Quote
What's funny is how quickly you can get used to not having privacy.
Even much more funny :( is how quickly you can get used not having rights, in general, so i.e. right to your own privacy or to have choices or whatever even if these seemed to be 'established' rights 'til a few years ago.
Otherwise people'd perhaps be able to answer and, I don't know, to perhaps find ways to invalidate spying programs' results with false or totally useless data… or not. I don't know. But I prefer to think that if people knew and wanted to, then, would be able to.

And, another thing… the reason is simply a silly lie to me, I mean:
Quote
I don't think being safe from terrorism or somehow ensure a greater "would-be-safety" is worth the freedom that's being given up in the process.
Safety to me is not actually a reason to anything here but a simple pretext to allow generalized control… essentially I can't see nothing for real linked to safety.

… but I'm probably paranoid :P as, to be honest, I also have so many doubts even on what terrorism really is, because to me, afterall, it looks like the new welcome fear, after the old cold war's fear was gone… so, yep, paranoid perhaps, but after all I think it might happen and it's not totally wrong when you have to deal with people or governments or companies or whatever which so seldom play fairly...
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Gilrond on July 28, 2013, 08:08:27 pm
Privacy is important, and it in a big degree depends on the users. Surely governments will try to spy as much as possible, but you as a user shouldn't make it easy for them. I.e. don't use social networks which thrive on violating privacy (Facebook, Google+ and etc.). Use ones which respect it (Diaspora* and etc.). Use encryption where possible and so on. It's not a guarantee of security, but it's a necessary first step for those who care.

Some other examples: https://prism-break.org
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: LigH on July 28, 2013, 09:11:20 pm
(http://frupic.frubar.net/shots/29936.jpg)

More, please. The sleeper is awaking...
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Roled on July 30, 2013, 10:48:34 am
Yeah government-forced economic equality is great.  That's why the USSR is the undisputed world leader and East Germany was so much more prosperous than the west...
Government "forced" equality is written into the constitution of all democracies. Only fascist governments attempt to rely on neoliberal, libertarian concepts first espoused by Thomas Hobbes in 1651, and more recently articulated by Robert Nozick.  The wealthiest individual citizenries in the world are found in the Scandinavian social democracies, and they also have the highest personal and corporate taxes. Sweden. Norway. Finland. And Switzerland. 

"Today we launch the sixth edition of the annual Legatum Prosperity Index™, benchmarking 142 countries on measures of wealth and wellbeing. For Americans, the headline is a simple if unwelcome one: the US is a nation in decline. For the first time, the US does not rank among the top 10 countries in the world in terms of overall prosperity." The Harvard Business Review, October 30, 2012. 
http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2012/10/where_does_your_nation_rank_on.html
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Rigwyn on July 30, 2013, 01:51:00 pm
We've had some sad leadership over the last decade or so. With George W and Obama spilling our money out the window like it was stale piss and the fed devaluing our currency, I'm not sure how much longer this can go on. I read somewhere that Obama wanted to raise the cap on the debt ceiling yet again ( as if he hasn't already spent enough ).

I'm no economist, but what the US is doing just doesn't seem to make sense. It looks to me like the hogs are rewriting the rules in their favor while the rest of us farm animals watch in dismay.

For a while I thought to myself, "If we the people don't need privacy, then by the same logic, neither does the government." Sadly, I think that if the government was fully transparent, we would just see their incompetence and dishonesty that much more. They would become more brazen and casual about breaking the law, lying and screwing up.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: MishkaL1138 on July 30, 2013, 07:01:55 pm
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/p480x480/644537_10151103826021275_953475414_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Gilrond on July 31, 2013, 02:24:30 am
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/934655_10151421938166927_784625944_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: bloodedIrishman on September 05, 2013, 03:03:34 am
Unconstitutional government surveillance has been going on since the dawn of the first world war. Since 9/11 it exploded. Senator Widen said what we're seeing now is the tip of the iceberg. This guy is on the House Intelligence Committee -- he's briefed on whatever he's allowed to be briefed on. Only he can't explicitly tell the American people what he's being briefed on by law. So if this is the tip of an iceberg that he doesn't even know that much about, then what the hell is the iceberg? Thus our lawfully elected representatives cannot legally inform us of the unlawful activities of unelected, militaristic organizations (NSA, CIA) who destroy our national character. Obama continues the legacy of Bush. Clinton was no better -- and he is credited with far too much.

And slight necro.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Volki on September 05, 2013, 10:02:53 am
I'll just sit here and wait for the revolution.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: LigH on September 05, 2013, 12:48:04 pm
Don't you know? Talking about the revolution sounds like a whisper
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Rigwyn on September 06, 2013, 12:32:26 am

It should be interesting to see what comes up as a result of this. Communication over existing lines has been compromised and encryption is just a step away from being criminalized. Nobody can promise secure communication. If people want secure and confidential communication, they will need an entirely new medium.

Perhaps one day we'll have some sort of communication based on quantum entanglement - if that's even possible.





Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Rigwyn on September 06, 2013, 12:44:12 am

This is getting ridiculous.

US and UK spy agencies defeat privacy and security on the internet
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/05/nsa-gchq-encryption-codes-security
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Volki on September 06, 2013, 01:26:59 am
Obviously people are getting angry. Why don't they do anything?

I propose a new term: "learned apathy". To describe the century.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Rigwyn on September 06, 2013, 01:45:44 am
I think most folks just don't understand the importance of privacy. It's not immediately obvious. Its one of those things you need to really think about. Many people I've spoken to respond with statements like, "I'm not guilty of anything, they can look at whatever they want." It's this "privacy is for criminals" mentality.

Even Obama came out and said something to the effect of, "If you are not hiding anything, you have nothing to worry about." ( Sorry, I don't have the quote at the moment. ) Would he have applied the same logic to the three letter orgs who love and protect their privacy? I think not.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: bloodedIrishman on September 06, 2013, 04:10:57 am
That line of logic "If you have nothing to hide, you have have nothing worry about" is the explanation of a servant and the justification of a master, to be sure. I have the right to hide, if I so choose. Moreover, the claim implies the searchers have perfect knowledge, will and execution of justice. They do not.

Thanks for the fresh link Rigmeister.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Ylaine on September 06, 2013, 09:55:03 am
I value my privacy. It's a valuable good to have in times of internet and social media. I don't want anyone to keep records of my e-mails, visited sites and so on, though I am aware of the fact that exactly this is happening. Like others, since there isn't much I can do about it, I'm careful of what I say online. It shouldn't have to be that way.
I'm Swiss, and most of the people here share my opinion and can't understand how people can say stuff like "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" or "All this surveillance is a good thing, it increases security."
Privacy against security... does it really have to be that way?
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: LigH on September 06, 2013, 01:43:18 pm
Fresh links, bloody? Okay: Bruce Schneier goes paranoid (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/05/nsa-how-to-remain-secure-surveillance). For those who might not yet know: Bruce Schneier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Schneier) is "teh Guru" of cryptography and IT security.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: bloodedIrishman on September 06, 2013, 02:45:58 pm
Oh snap, LigH. Nice links sunny.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Gilrond on September 08, 2013, 04:31:04 am
Stuff already came out of this. Lavabit closed down. More stuff like this is to be expected. Digitial business will move away from US.

Thanks for the link LigH. I read Bruce Schneier's blog regularly: https://www.schneier.com but this article isn't there yet.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: LigH on September 24, 2013, 07:55:28 pm
Why did the absolute NSA surveillance not prevent the Nairobi mall terror? ... There is no reason for absolute surveillance.
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: bilbous on September 24, 2013, 09:56:28 pm
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lry686xMDF1qz6f9yo1_500.jpg)


There are no snakes here!
Title: Re: Privacy: Importance and Expectations
Post by: Rigwyn on September 25, 2013, 01:04:56 am
Why did the absolute NSA surveillance not prevent the Nairobi mall terror? ... There is no reason for absolute surveillance.

I really don't think they are concerned about stopping all crimes - just those few that are on their agenda. I've often wondered why they aren't working with US companies to help BLOCK external attacks *cough* as opposed to trying to introduce backdoors and vulnerabilities  *cough*  . My guess is that they prefer to just stand there and let shit happen - then cherry pick the cases they wish to focus on.